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Friday, October 7, 2011

[ALOCHONA] Murder plan by 4 AL leaders



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Re: [india-unity] Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.



I do not have any problem in accepting the Brahmo Samaj bit but the Krishna bit is a bit too much because Krishna was never a Brahmo deity of icon, and that too sitting in Bengal and eulogizing Krishna was a little fetched thought!

On 7 October 2011 22:30, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
                You may choose to dislike my conclusion, Sukla, but you should not call my analysis "complete rubbish."
 
Pradip Kumar Dutta's article provides very little "cultural" analysis. His information: " that the song was sung -- not written - at an event which also felicitated the king" confirms my belief that it was actually a Brahmo samaj hymn type of song that Rabindranath habitually composed.  So it was composed for the occasion of the King's visit. No big deal! In his youth Rabi Babu was an energetic Brahmo samaj secretary.  His later refutation is typical of his many defences in such quarrels.

                  I can now see, on further reflection, the invocation to a male god as 'Bharata bhagya-bidhata' came from Brahmo samaj dharmo chinta. Lord Krishna of Bhagabat Gita is a warfield chareoteer.  The exclusive passenger of that ratha is Arjuna, the hero of Kurukshetra. The wheels of that chariot are not likely to be making everyday life's 'dino ratri' mukhorito.  The same reason why he cannot be of any help in navigating life's intricate roads. This is not your ISCON Lord Krishna. In fact, 'jana gana patho parichayaka' reminds me of Sura Fatiha's 'ihdi-na siratul mustaqim'; and as a Brahmo samaj deity he could easily have borrowed such an attribute from Islam.
                 Too busy now to answer everyone on this topic. Suffice it to say that Rabindranath was ambivalent about British imperialism. He, Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah, and the rest of them, were Orientalists.
 
                  Right now, believe it or not, I am busy supporting Rabindranath's 'amar sonar bangla' and his musical genius in choosing the baul tune to set his important lyrics as a tribute to Bangla Ma at a critical juncture in the country's political history.
 
                    Wish me luck in convincing a bunch of people that 'amar sonar bangla' is not just a silly sleepy song by a 'Hindu' poet but the most appropriate national anthem for Bangladesh.
 
                    Farida Majid 
                

To: farida_majid@hotmail.com; india-unity@yahoogroups.com
CC: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: sukla.sen@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:36:26 +0530
Subject: [india-unity] Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.

 
That's of course complete rubbish.

Of course Tagore himself refuted it.

He had given up knighthood in protest against the Jallianwala Bagh massacre.
A complete section of his songs imbibing nationalist spirit is classed as "Swadesh".
Though not a traditional "nationalist", he had an intimate association with the Indian freedom movement and its leaders including Gandhi.

And here is the third stanza of the original composition which shows up the absurdity of the claim that the song was in praise of the then British Emperor.

Potono Abhbhudoy Bandhuro Ponthaa,
Jugo Jugo Dhaabito Jaatri
Hey Chiro Saarothi, Tabo Ratha Chakrey,Mukhorito Potho Dino Raatri
Daaruno Biplabo Maajhey,Tabo Shankhodhwoni Bajey
Sankato Dukkho Traataa
Jano Gano Potho Parichaayako,Jayo Hey Bhaarato Bhaagyo Bidhaataa
Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey,Jayo Jayo Jayo, Jayo Hey
(The way of life is somber as it moves through ups and downs,
But we, the pilgrims, have followed it through ages.
Oh! Eternal Charioteer, the wheels of your chariot echo day and night in the path
In the midst of fierce revolution, your conch shell sounds.
You save us from fear and misery
Oh! You who guide the people through tortuous path...
Victory be to You, dispenser of the destiny of India!
)

Here is an article, reproduced below, on the topic.

Sukla


September 8, 2004
[India's National Anthem] Are we still singing for the Empire?
by Pradip Kumar Datta *

One of the many targets of Sadhvi Rithambara's infamous hate cassette -- which did so much to provoke feelings of resentment against Muslims -- was the national anthem. She described it as an act of 'gaddari' (treachery). Hindutva allegations against the Jana Gana Mana are not new. But they have begun to circulate anew with fresh intensity with the growth of the Hindutva brigade in the 80's. And have entered the conversational common sense which has begun to treat these as if they were established evidence. Quite recently a friend of mine abroad alerted me to pro-Hindutva websites such as www.freeindia.org that had convinced his otherwise secular students that the anthem had been originally composed for Emperor George V. Even more recently, another friend reported that she found herself isolated in a ladies party in Kolkata when she tried to defend the anthem from these charges.

The jingoism of the anti-Jana Gana Mana campaign is based on an appropriate irony. The charge actually rests on false evidence given by the pro-British press. The song was first sung in a session of the Congress in 1911. This session had decided to felicitate George V since he had announced the abrogation of the partition of Bengal, thereby conceding the success of the Swadeshi agitation, the first modern anti-colonial movement that had started in 1905. The day after the session the nationalist Indian papers normally -- and accurately -- reported that a Tagore composition had been sung. The Bengalee -- along with other Indian newspapers as well as the report of the Indian National Congress - reported that it was a "patriotic song". The following year the song was published as "Bharat -- Vidatha". A contemporary commentator in the vernacular Bharati described the song as one in "Praise of the Dispenser of human Destiny, whoÖappears in every age." He probably came closest to capturing its spirit. This song was to later become known as Jana Gana Mana.

The confusion about the song was stirred up by the ineptness of the pro-British Anglo-Indian press. Their inefficiency was not surprising (The Sunday Times once ascribed the authorship of Bande Mataram to Tagore and described Jana Gana Mana as a Hindi song!) On this occasion the Anglo-Indian press -- led by The Englishman - almost uniformly reported that a Tagore song had been sung to commemorate George V's visit to India. The reports were based on understandable ignorance since the Anglo-Indian press had neither the linguistic abilities nor the interest to be accurate. Actually, two songs that had been sung that day. The Jana Gana Manahad been followed by a Hindi song composed specially for George V by Rambhuj Chaudhary. There was no real connection between the composition of the Jana Gana Mana and George V, except that the song was sung -- not written - at an event which also felicitated the king. The Anglo-Indian press [luckily for Hindutva enthusiasts and unfortunately for secularists!] heard Indian songs much in the way they looked at foreign faces: they were all the same!

Initially the controversy seemed a non-starter. Contemporaries obviously found it hard to associate Tagore with servility. Tagore was known for this opposition to the government. Indeed, shortly after the Congress session the government passed a circular that declared Shantiniketan to be a "place altogether unsuitable for the education of Government officers" and threatened punitive measures against officers who sent their children there to study. Undoubtedly helped by these measures which shored up Tagore's nationalist reputation, the song steadily acquired wide acceptability among nationalists in all parts of the country - especially after its translation into English as "The morning song of India" by the poet in Madras. In a survey made just before the poetís death in 1941 at Mumbai, respondents felt Jana Gana Mana to have the strongest "national characteristics" although Bande Mataram was found superior on some other criteria. The dirt thrown by the pro-British press seemed to have been completely wrung out when Netaji Bose's Indian National Army adopted it as the National Anthem; this was followed by Gandhiís declaration in 1946 that "the song has found a place in our national life": that it was "also like a devotional hymn".

But it was not as if it was all smooth sailing for the story of Jana Gana Mana's popularity. The first round of controversy -- this time by the Indians themselves - had been stoked in 1937. But it became a much more general one from the late 1940's when a debate broke out over what was to be the National Anthem. A section within the Congress wanted the Bande Mataram, a song that was popularly associated with the national movement. ButBande Mataram was controversial since its invocation of the nation as a Goddess went against Islamic theology which forbade the worship of any God other than Allah. Also the Bande Mataram had been successfully converted into a sign of communal antagonism by Hindu communalists (with the enthusiastic participation of their Muslim counterparts who regarded the song as a horrible provocation) and even chanted it as a slogan in riots. 

In the 1930's, a Congress sub-committee had short-listed some "national" songs that could be sung together with or instead of Bande Mataram. It was then proposed (on Tagore's initiative) that the first two stanzas of Bande Mataram could be sung. But this catholicity was not felt to be feasible after independence. Occasions involving foreign diplomatic missions or the Defence forces required that a single "National Anthem" be played by a band as a signature of the country. The Constituent Assembly was deputed to select the anthem. It was in the ensuing lobbying to knock Jana Gana Mana out of reckoning, that outworn and salacious bits of colonial misinformation about the song began to be recirculated. 

Jana Gana Mana was chosen as anthem in 1950 over Bande Mataram as well as Iqbal's Sare Jahan Se Accha - although Bande Mataram was given "equal status". An important reason was that Bande Mataram could not be played by bands. Additionally Jana Gana Mana enjoyed an international reputation. It had been greatly appreciated in the United Nations at New York where it was first played as an orchestral arrangement in 1947. Many said that it was superior to most national anthems in the world. Within the country the overwhelming majority of the provinces supported its nomination.

But there is also an underlying reason that is really responsible for the controversy popping up at regular intervals. The words of Bande Mataram feature India as a homogeneous Hindu nation. Jana Gana Mana evokes the country as composed of a multiplicity of regions and communities united in a prayer to a universal lord. After all,Bande Mataram was composed by a colonial administrator who could only visualize the nation in Hindu terms: religious identity was the only available idiom for conceptualizing the nation then. In contrast, Tagore had seen the riots that broke up the Swadeshi movement and had divined the obvious: religious nationalism easily divided anti-colonial struggles. Jana Gana Mana can be seen as one of the fruits of Tagore's search to find an alternate inclusivist definition for the nation. Incidentally, it was one of the harbingers of a decade that was to see Hindu and Muslim politicians draw together. In short, the two songs embody different ideas, histories and aspirations of the country.

In fairness, the last word on the affair should really be given to the poet himself (incidentally he had composed the music for Bande Mataram). Answering a friend's query about the origins of the Jana Gana Mana in 1937, Tagore said that a loyalist friend had requested him to write a song in praise of the King. He had felt anger at his friends presumption about his loyalism. It was this anger that led him to compose Jana Gana Mana. He had written a song to a superior authority, the "Dispenser of India's destiny". Tagore concluded. "That great Charioteer of man's destiny in age after age could not by any means be George V or George VI or any George. Even my 'loyal' friend realized this; because, however powerful his loyalty to the King, he was not wanting in intelligence." I may add here that we normally sing the first verse alone: the third verse of the song refers explicitly to the eternal lord. 

Tagore said that he felt too pained by the unjustness of the charge to come out with a public refutation. Perhaps he was wrong. He could have considered the issue of survival. Not just of his public reputation. But also the survival of self-confidence in some of his future citizens who believe that they venerate their masters fifty years after independence. And that they can sing songs to a King, dead for an even longer period.

(Readers interested in more information may look at P.Sen's India's National Anthem)

* Pradip Kumar Datta teaches at Delhi University.


On 6 October 2011 02:29, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
              What an Imperialist-piyari British rule panderer! Rabindranath's 'jana gana mana' song was actually not too far from these sentiments.
              Rabindranath had to deny the song's association with King George V's visit to India when confronted.  He bald faced lied.  What else could he do?  I have studied Rabindranath at length and know that he is clever about being dishonest.
 
     Let us think culturally. Traditionally in Bengal, a patriotic song or hym to the land of one's birth is addressed to "Mother" -- the land being a female figure of feritility even in the Muslim tradition.  Bankim's 'Bande Mataram' is a typical model that was followed by many authors and composers including Muslim poets like Kazi Nazrul. In Iqbal's 'saare Jahan se accha' you don't get the image of Hindustan figuring as a dominant male. [That is the reason I strongly oppose the accusation of Bankim's 'Bande Mataram' being a communal song -- all 'saat koti' santaan of mother Bengal could be of any religion]
 
             Suddenly, out of nowhere comes this weird, dangerous component of an idea of a MALE leader, or a commander -- adhinayaka -- a decider on behalf of jana-gana's mind!  Wow! That is against the concept of any religion.  Hindu or Muslim prayers to God are done in supplication --lead us from darkness to light; or cleanse us of impurities; bestow prosperity on us; or lead us on the the straight path and not on the path of those you have cursed, etc. Man's mind has the free-will, it is liable to go astray, hence the prayer to the deity for assistance in leading to Truth and righteousness.  But the idea of a dominant male commander of people's mind is utterly bewildering!
 
             Rabindranath had often expressed satisfaction of being under the British rule in many of his prose writings. This is the fist time in history, he says,  that all of India is under one rule and one umbrella. His songs and literature is strewn with his intense Raja-preeti. 'Jana-gana-mana' is actually a Raja-vandana, a foreign Raja to whom all the provinces, rivers and seas of India are subservient.
 
             Contrast jana gana mana with  Amar Sonar Bangla, which is composed eariler in a very different mood and with a very different political background of protessting the partitioning of Bengal by the British.  Here Rabindranath is addressing the Mother, which is perfectly natural.  Moreover, instead of a Brahmo samaj hymn tune he adopts a baul tune from a popular song that he heard from Gagon Harkara, the postman in Shelaidoho in East Bengal. Rabindranath used to love to sing the song himself. The American poet, Ezra Pound heard him sing the song in 1912 at the home of the artist Rothenstein in London.
 
               More later.

              Farida Majid

To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: jnrsr53@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:36:04 -0700
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.

 

This is what I think – most of Tagore's writing is directed to an imaginary deity. He never revealed what it was. As far as I know -Tagore never mentioned any particular deity in his writings. He was, obviously, aware the existence of this extraordinary spirit, and knew that the source was within him, not anywhere else, meaning it did not come from the sky. He mostly communicated with this spirit through his poems. We all have our own spirit within ourselves. We feel its presence, but cannot give a form to it. That is the God, I believe.

 

This particular poem in question was about praising the King of Bharat, and you cannot depict a King without a chariot. Chariot was not the vehicle of Shree Krishna; he rode one with Arjun as the Charioteer during the Kurukhetra War. So, Chariot does not explain the fact. And conch was like the bugle in those days.

 

You said – your mental speculation is based on eternal truth. I think - the truth is – we don't know the truth.

 

You think India is still under British rule, because our thoughts are still controlled by British. Let's make a mental picture of India in 2011, without the British rule. Shall we? What do you see? I see a nation somewhere in 12th or 13th century. Let me know what you see. Therefore, if you ask me – I am thankful to British for their help in rebuilding India with their modern amenities, education systems, and judiciaries. Yes, they took some wealth back to England. Why not? You do not expect everything for free. Do you? After all, they came to India for business and occupied India for 200 years. They could have taken everything without investing a penny in India. It seems to me that your thoughts are blinded by propaganda, so you are unable to see the benefits of the British rule.

 

Now, about mythological characters – my thought process is not influence by British. When I was born, British left India. If you use rational thinking, you will see the same. Let me give you a specific example of a mythological character. I was watching television the other day, and they were showing Durga Puja festivities in Kolkata. In just one Puja, they spent 40 million rupees to build the deity, and, so far, they already spent about 100 million rupees for this Puja. As soon as this Puja will be over, the same TV station will start showing us starving people dying on the street of Kolkata. Do you think Durga-Ma will relieve their pain and suffering? Now, tell me - what else we could do with that money. How about homeless/destitute senior citizen centers or boarding school for orphans?  Don't you think that would please God more? I think so.

 

Anyway, these are my personal views, not influenced by anybody or anything. Thanks for initiating the discussion, and exchanging your thoughts.  

 
Jiten Roy


--- On Tue, 10/4/11, nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2011, 11:11 AM

 
I have logically deduced it from Tagore's writings. Who else is an Eternal Charioteer, who possesses a conch. You are underestimating both Tagore and his works. It is mental speculation but it is based on the highest truths. If Tagore were a liar anybody can become a Tagore. It is truth that differentiates Tagore from the rest of the poets. British rule still exists in India and the beliefs that they imposed on us are very much alive and well supported by us.



--- On Mon, 10/3/11, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 3, 2011, 8:25 PM



How do you know what Tagore thought when he wrote that song? He was a poet; he could be thinking any imaginary supernatural power, who he thought running Bharat. Krishna never ran Bharat. Did He? It's all guess and speculations. I think - British were right, most of the characters in the Hindu scriptures are mythological characters.

 
Jiten Roy

--- On Mon, 10/3/11, nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 3, 2011, 11:38 AM

 
Dear All,

Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna. Please read the short article at

For the complete article read it at 

Please forward this mail to as many people as you can. The British created the myth that our gods and goddesses are mythological characters. This is not true and our Vedic scriptures confirm it. First we must get this sorted out before we create a plan for 2020 in my opinion.

Regards,

Nihar Singh


















--
Peace Is Doable




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Re: [india-unity] Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.



"Right now, believe it or not, I am busy supporting Rabindranath's 'amar sonar bangla' and his musical genius in choosing the baul tune to set his important lyrics as a tribute to Bangla Ma at a critical juncture in the country's political history. Wish me luck in convincing a bunch of people that 'amar sonar bangla' is not just a silly sleepy song by a 'Hindu' poet but the most appropriate national anthem for Bangladesh."---FM
 
Thanks. I cannot agree more.

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 8:57 PM
Subject: RE: [india-unity] Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
 


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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [india-unity] Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.



Would you believe that Gita was concocted in Baghdad during the Abasid rule?

On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 11:00 PM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
 

                You may choose to dislike my conclusion, Sukla, but you should not call my analysis "complete rubbish."
 
Pradip Kumar Dutta's article provides very little "cultural" analysis. His information: " that the song was sung -- not written - at an event which also felicitated the king" confirms my belief that it was actually a Brahmo samaj hymn type of song that Rabindranath habitually composed.  So it was composed for the occasion of the King's visit. No big deal! In his youth Rabi Babu was an energetic Brahmo samaj secretary.  His later refutation is typical of his many defences in such quarrels.

                  I can now see, on further reflection, the invocation to a male god as 'Bharata bhagya-bidhata' came from Brahmo samaj dharmo chinta. Lord Krishna of Bhagabat Gita is a warfield chareoteer.  The exclusive passenger of that ratha is Arjuna, the hero of Kurukshetra. The wheels of that chariot are not likely to be making everyday life's 'dino ratri' mukhorito.  The same reason why he cannot be of any help in navigating life's intricate roads. This is not your ISCON Lord Krishna. In fact, 'jana gana patho parichayaka' reminds me of Sura Fatiha's 'ihdi-na siratul mustaqim'; and as a Brahmo samaj deity he could easily have borrowed such an attribute from Islam.
                 Too busy now to answer everyone on this topic. Suffice it to say that Rabindranath was ambivalent about British imperialism. He, Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah, and the rest of them, were Orientalists.
 
                  Right now, believe it or not, I am busy supporting Rabindranath's 'amar sonar bangla' and his musical genius in choosing the baul tune to set his important lyrics as a tribute to Bangla Ma at a critical juncture in the country's political history.
 
                    Wish me luck in convincing a bunch of people that 'amar sonar bangla' is not just a silly sleepy song by a 'Hindu' poet but the most appropriate national anthem for Bangladesh.
 
                    Farida Majid 
                

To: farida_majid@hotmail.com; india-unity@yahoogroups.com
CC: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: sukla.sen@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:36:26 +0530
Subject: [india-unity] Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.


 
That's of course complete rubbish.

Of course Tagore himself refuted it.

He had given up knighthood in protest against the Jallianwala Bagh massacre.
A complete section of his songs imbibing nationalist spirit is classed as "Swadesh".
Though not a traditional "nationalist", he had an intimate association with the Indian freedom movement and its leaders including Gandhi.

And here is the third stanza of the original composition which shows up the absurdity of the claim that the song was in praise of the then British Emperor.

Potono Abhbhudoy Bandhuro Ponthaa,
Jugo Jugo Dhaabito Jaatri
Hey Chiro Saarothi, Tabo Ratha Chakrey,Mukhorito Potho Dino Raatri
Daaruno Biplabo Maajhey,Tabo Shankhodhwoni Bajey
Sankato Dukkho Traataa
Jano Gano Potho Parichaayako,Jayo Hey Bhaarato Bhaagyo Bidhaataa
Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey,Jayo Jayo Jayo, Jayo Hey
(The way of life is somber as it moves through ups and downs,
But we, the pilgrims, have followed it through ages.
Oh! Eternal Charioteer, the wheels of your chariot echo day and night in the path
In the midst of fierce revolution, your conch shell sounds.
You save us from fear and misery
Oh! You who guide the people through tortuous path...
Victory be to You, dispenser of the destiny of India!
)

Here is an article, reproduced below, on the topic.

Sukla


September 8, 2004
[India's National Anthem] Are we still singing for the Empire?
by Pradip Kumar Datta *

One of the many targets of Sadhvi Rithambara's infamous hate cassette -- which did so much to provoke feelings of resentment against Muslims -- was the national anthem. She described it as an act of 'gaddari' (treachery). Hindutva allegations against the Jana Gana Mana are not new. But they have begun to circulate anew with fresh intensity with the growth of the Hindutva brigade in the 80's. And have entered the conversational common sense which has begun to treat these as if they were established evidence. Quite recently a friend of mine abroad alerted me to pro-Hindutva websites such as www.freeindia.org that had convinced his otherwise secular students that the anthem had been originally composed for Emperor George V. Even more recently, another friend reported that she found herself isolated in a ladies party in Kolkata when she tried to defend the anthem from these charges.

The jingoism of the anti-Jana Gana Mana campaign is based on an appropriate irony. The charge actually rests on false evidence given by the pro-British press. The song was first sung in a session of the Congress in 1911. This session had decided to felicitate George V since he had announced the abrogation of the partition of Bengal, thereby conceding the success of the Swadeshi agitation, the first modern anti-colonial movement that had started in 1905. The day after the session the nationalist Indian papers normally -- and accurately -- reported that a Tagore composition had been sung. The Bengalee -- along with other Indian newspapers as well as the report of the Indian National Congress - reported that it was a "patriotic song". The following year the song was published as "Bharat -- Vidatha". A contemporary commentator in the vernacular Bharati described the song as one in "Praise of the Dispenser of human Destiny, whoÖappears in every age." He probably came closest to capturing its spirit. This song was to later become known as Jana Gana Mana.

The confusion about the song was stirred up by the ineptness of the pro-British Anglo-Indian press. Their inefficiency was not surprising (The Sunday Times once ascribed the authorship of Bande Mataram to Tagore and described Jana Gana Mana as a Hindi song!) On this occasion the Anglo-Indian press -- led by The Englishman - almost uniformly reported that a Tagore song had been sung to commemorate George V's visit to India. The reports were based on understandable ignorance since the Anglo-Indian press had neither the linguistic abilities nor the interest to be accurate. Actually, two songs that had been sung that day. The Jana Gana Manahad been followed by a Hindi song composed specially for George V by Rambhuj Chaudhary. There was no real connection between the composition of the Jana Gana Mana and George V, except that the song was sung -- not written - at an event which also felicitated the king. The Anglo-Indian press [luckily for Hindutva enthusiasts and unfortunately for secularists!] heard Indian songs much in the way they looked at foreign faces: they were all the same!

Initially the controversy seemed a non-starter. Contemporaries obviously found it hard to associate Tagore with servility. Tagore was known for this opposition to the government. Indeed, shortly after the Congress session the government passed a circular that declared Shantiniketan to be a "place altogether unsuitable for the education of Government officers" and threatened punitive measures against officers who sent their children there to study. Undoubtedly helped by these measures which shored up Tagore's nationalist reputation, the song steadily acquired wide acceptability among nationalists in all parts of the country - especially after its translation into English as "The morning song of India" by the poet in Madras. In a survey made just before the poetís death in 1941 at Mumbai, respondents felt Jana Gana Mana to have the strongest "national characteristics" although Bande Mataram was found superior on some other criteria. The dirt thrown by the pro-British press seemed to have been completely wrung out when Netaji Bose's Indian National Army adopted it as the National Anthem; this was followed by Gandhiís declaration in 1946 that "the song has found a place in our national life": that it was "also like a devotional hymn".

But it was not as if it was all smooth sailing for the story of Jana Gana Mana's popularity. The first round of controversy -- this time by the Indians themselves - had been stoked in 1937. But it became a much more general one from the late 1940's when a debate broke out over what was to be the National Anthem. A section within the Congress wanted the Bande Mataram, a song that was popularly associated with the national movement. ButBande Mataram was controversial since its invocation of the nation as a Goddess went against Islamic theology which forbade the worship of any God other than Allah. Also the Bande Mataram had been successfully converted into a sign of communal antagonism by Hindu communalists (with the enthusiastic participation of their Muslim counterparts who regarded the song as a horrible provocation) and even chanted it as a slogan in riots. 

In the 1930's, a Congress sub-committee had short-listed some "national" songs that could be sung together with or instead of Bande Mataram. It was then proposed (on Tagore's initiative) that the first two stanzas of Bande Mataram could be sung. But this catholicity was not felt to be feasible after independence. Occasions involving foreign diplomatic missions or the Defence forces required that a single "National Anthem" be played by a band as a signature of the country. The Constituent Assembly was deputed to select the anthem. It was in the ensuing lobbying to knock Jana Gana Mana out of reckoning, that outworn and salacious bits of colonial misinformation about the song began to be recirculated. 

Jana Gana Mana was chosen as anthem in 1950 over Bande Mataram as well as Iqbal's Sare Jahan Se Accha - although Bande Mataram was given "equal status". An important reason was that Bande Mataram could not be played by bands. Additionally Jana Gana Mana enjoyed an international reputation. It had been greatly appreciated in the United Nations at New York where it was first played as an orchestral arrangement in 1947. Many said that it was superior to most national anthems in the world. Within the country the overwhelming majority of the provinces supported its nomination.

But there is also an underlying reason that is really responsible for the controversy popping up at regular intervals. The words of Bande Mataram feature India as a homogeneous Hindu nation. Jana Gana Mana evokes the country as composed of a multiplicity of regions and communities united in a prayer to a universal lord. After all,Bande Mataram was composed by a colonial administrator who could only visualize the nation in Hindu terms: religious identity was the only available idiom for conceptualizing the nation then. In contrast, Tagore had seen the riots that broke up the Swadeshi movement and had divined the obvious: religious nationalism easily divided anti-colonial struggles. Jana Gana Mana can be seen as one of the fruits of Tagore's search to find an alternate inclusivist definition for the nation. Incidentally, it was one of the harbingers of a decade that was to see Hindu and Muslim politicians draw together. In short, the two songs embody different ideas, histories and aspirations of the country.

In fairness, the last word on the affair should really be given to the poet himself (incidentally he had composed the music for Bande Mataram). Answering a friend's query about the origins of the Jana Gana Mana in 1937, Tagore said that a loyalist friend had requested him to write a song in praise of the King. He had felt anger at his friends presumption about his loyalism. It was this anger that led him to compose Jana Gana Mana. He had written a song to a superior authority, the "Dispenser of India's destiny". Tagore concluded. "That great Charioteer of man's destiny in age after age could not by any means be George V or George VI or any George. Even my 'loyal' friend realized this; because, however powerful his loyalty to the King, he was not wanting in intelligence." I may add here that we normally sing the first verse alone: the third verse of the song refers explicitly to the eternal lord. 

Tagore said that he felt too pained by the unjustness of the charge to come out with a public refutation. Perhaps he was wrong. He could have considered the issue of survival. Not just of his public reputation. But also the survival of self-confidence in some of his future citizens who believe that they venerate their masters fifty years after independence. And that they can sing songs to a King, dead for an even longer period.

(Readers interested in more information may look at P.Sen's India's National Anthem)

* Pradip Kumar Datta teaches at Delhi University.


On 6 October 2011 02:29, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
              What an Imperialist-piyari British rule panderer! Rabindranath's 'jana gana mana' song was actually not too far from these sentiments.
              Rabindranath had to deny the song's association with King George V's visit to India when confronted.  He bald faced lied.  What else could he do?  I have studied Rabindranath at length and know that he is clever about being dishonest.
 
     Let us think culturally. Traditionally in Bengal, a patriotic song or hym to the land of one's birth is addressed to "Mother" -- the land being a female figure of feritility even in the Muslim tradition.  Bankim's 'Bande Mataram' is a typical model that was followed by many authors and composers including Muslim poets like Kazi Nazrul. In Iqbal's 'saare Jahan se accha' you don't get the image of Hindustan figuring as a dominant male. [That is the reason I strongly oppose the accusation of Bankim's 'Bande Mataram' being a communal song -- all 'saat koti' santaan of mother Bengal could be of any religion]
 
             Suddenly, out of nowhere comes this weird, dangerous component of an idea of a MALE leader, or a commander -- adhinayaka -- a decider on behalf of jana-gana's mind!  Wow! That is against the concept of any religion.  Hindu or Muslim prayers to God are done in supplication --lead us from darkness to light; or cleanse us of impurities; bestow prosperity on us; or lead us on the the straight path and not on the path of those you have cursed, etc. Man's mind has the free-will, it is liable to go astray, hence the prayer to the deity for assistance in leading to Truth and righteousness.  But the idea of a dominant male commander of people's mind is utterly bewildering!
 
             Rabindranath had often expressed satisfaction of being under the British rule in many of his prose writings. This is the fist time in history, he says,  that all of India is under one rule and one umbrella. His songs and literature is strewn with his intense Raja-preeti. 'Jana-gana-mana' is actually a Raja-vandana, a foreign Raja to whom all the provinces, rivers and seas of India are subservient.
 
             Contrast jana gana mana with  Amar Sonar Bangla, which is composed eariler in a very different mood and with a very different political background of protessting the partitioning of Bengal by the British.  Here Rabindranath is addressing the Mother, which is perfectly natural.  Moreover, instead of a Brahmo samaj hymn tune he adopts a baul tune from a popular song that he heard from Gagon Harkara, the postman in Shelaidoho in East Bengal. Rabindranath used to love to sing the song himself. The American poet, Ezra Pound heard him sing the song in 1912 at the home of the artist Rothenstein in London.
 
               More later.

              Farida Majid

To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: jnrsr53@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:36:04 -0700
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.

 
It really does not matter so much who Rabindra Nath dedicated the Janagama song. It is a very appropriate national anthem for India. On the contrary, I do not like the national anthem of Bangaldesh. It is too mild, and does not have the rhythm and spirit of a national anthem. I wish we had chosen Dhana Dhyanne Pushpe Bhora …. as our national anthem.
 
Jiten Roy--- On Fri, 10/7/11, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [india-unity] Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: "India Unity" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona Yahoogroups" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, October 7, 2011, 1:00 PM

 
                You may choose to dislike my conclusion, Sukla, but you should not call my analysis "complete rubbish." Pradip Kumar Dutta's article provides very little "cultural" analysis. His information: " that the song was sung -- not written - at an event which also felicitated the king" confirms my belief that it was actually a Brahmo samaj hymn type of song that Rabindranath habitually composed.  So it was composed for the occasion of the King's visit. No big deal! In his youth Rabi Babu was an energetic Brahmo samaj secretary.  His later refutation is typical of his many defences in such quarrels.                  I can now see, on further reflection, the invocation to a male god as 'Bharata bhagya-bidhata' came from Brahmo samaj dharmo chinta. Lord Krishna of Bhagabat Gita is a warfield chareoteer.  The exclusive passenger of that ratha is Arjuna, the hero of Kurukshetra. The wheels of that chariot are not likely to be making everyday life's 'dino ratri' mukhorito.  The same reason why he cannot be of any help in navigating life's intricate roads. This is not your ISCON Lord Krishna. In fact, 'jana gana patho parichayaka' reminds me of Sura Fatiha's 'ihdi-na siratul mustaqim'; and as a Brahmo samaj deity he could easily have borrowed such an attribute from Islam.                 Too busy now to answer everyone on this topic. Suffice it to say that Rabindranath was ambivalent about British imperialism. He, Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah, and the rest of them, were Orientalists.                    Right now, believe it or not, I am busy supporting Rabindranath's 'amar sonar bangla' and his musical genius in choosing the baul tune to set his important lyrics as a tribute to Bangla Ma at a critical juncture in the country's political history.                     Wish me luck in convincing a bunch of people that 'amar sonar bangla' is not just a silly sleepy song by a 'Hindu' poet but the most appropriate national anthem for Bangladesh.                     Farida Majid                 
To: farida_majid@hotmail.com; india-unity@yahoogroups.comCC: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: sukla.sen@gmail.comDate: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 12:36:26 +0530Subject: [india-unity] Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved. 
That's of course complete rubbish.
Of course Tagore himself refuted it.
He had given up knighthood in protest against the Jallianwala Bagh massacre.
A complete section of his songs imbibing nationalist spirit is classed as "Swadesh".
Though not a traditional "nationalist", he had an intimate association with the Indian freedom movement and its leaders including Gandhi.
And here is the third stanza of the original composition which shows up the absurdity of the claim that the song was in praise of the then British Emperor.
Potono Abhbhudoy Bandhuro Ponthaa,
Jugo Jugo Dhaabito Jaatri
Hey Chiro Saarothi, Tabo Ratha Chakrey,Mukhorito Potho Dino Raatri
Daaruno Biplabo Maajhey,Tabo Shankhodhwoni Bajey
Sankato Dukkho Traataa
Jano Gano Potho Parichaayako,Jayo Hey Bhaarato Bhaagyo Bidhaataa
Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey, Jayo Hey,Jayo Jayo Jayo, Jayo Hey
(The way of life is somber as it moves through ups and downs,
But we, the pilgrims, have followed it through ages.
Oh! Eternal Charioteer, the wheels of your chariot echo day and night in the path
In the midst of fierce revolution, your conch shell sounds.
You save us from fear and misery
Oh! You who guide the people through tortuous path...
Victory be to You, dispenser of the destiny of India!
)
Here is an article, reproduced below, on the topic.
Sukla
http://www.sacw.net/DC/CommunalismCollection/ArticlesArchive/pkDatta092004.html
September 8, 2004[India's National Anthem] Are we still singing for the Empire?by Pradip Kumar Datta *

One of the many targets of Sadhvi Rithambara's infamous hate cassette -- which did so much to provoke feelings of resentment against Muslims -- was the national anthem. She described it as an act of 'gaddari' (treachery). Hindutva allegations against the Jana Gana Mana are not new. But they have begun to circulate anew with fresh intensity with the growth of the Hindutva brigade in the 80's. And have entered the conversational common sense which has begun to treat these as if they were established evidence. Quite recently a friend of mine abroad alerted me to pro-Hindutva websites such as www.freeindia.org that had convinced his otherwise secular students that the anthem had been originally composed for Emperor George V. Even more recently, another friend reported that she found herself isolated in a ladies party in Kolkata when she tried to defend the anthem from these charges.The jingoism of the anti-Jana Gana Mana campaign is based on an appropriate irony. The charge actually rests on false evidence given by the pro-British press. The song was first sung in a session of the Congress in 1911. This session had decided to felicitate George V since he had announced the abrogation of the partition of Bengal, thereby conceding the success of the Swadeshi agitation, the first modern anti-colonial movement that had started in 1905. The day after the session the nationalist Indian papers normally -- and accurately -- reported that a Tagore composition had been sung. The Bengalee -- along with other Indian newspapers as well as the report of the Indian National Congress - reported that it was a "patriotic song". The following year the song was published as "Bharat -- Vidatha". A contemporary commentator in the vernacular Bharati described the song as one in "Praise of the Dispenser of human Destiny, whoÖappears in every age." He probably came closest to capturing its spirit. This song was to later become known as Jana Gana Mana.The confusion about the song was stirred up by the ineptness of the pro-British Anglo-Indian press. Their inefficiency was not surprising (The Sunday Times once ascribed the authorship of Bande Mataram to Tagore and described Jana Gana Mana as a Hindi song!) On this occasion the Anglo-Indian press -- led by The Englishman - almost uniformly reported that a Tagore song had been sung to commemorate George V's visit to India. The reports were based on understandable ignorance since the Anglo-Indian press had neither the linguistic abilities nor the interest to be accurate. Actually, two songs that had been sung that day. The Jana Gana Manahad been followed by a Hindi song composed specially for George V by Rambhuj Chaudhary. There was no real connection between the composition of the Jana Gana Mana and George V, except that the song was sung -- not written - at an event which also felicitated the king. The Anglo-Indian press [luckily for Hindutva enthusiasts and unfortunately for secularists!] heard Indian songs much in the way they looked at foreign faces: they were all the same!Initially the controversy seemed a non-starter. Contemporaries obviously found it hard to associate Tagore with servility. Tagore was known for this opposition to the government. Indeed, shortly after the Congress session the government passed a circular that declared Shantiniketan to be a "place altogether unsuitable for the education of Government officers" and threatened punitive measures against officers who sent their children there to study. Undoubtedly helped by these measures which shored up Tagore's nationalist reputation, the song steadily acquired wide acceptability among nationalists in all parts of the country - especially after its translation into English as "The morning song of India" by the poet in Madras. In a survey made just before the poetís death in 1941 at Mumbai, respondents felt Jana Gana Mana to have the strongest "national characteristics" although Bande Mataram was found superior on some other criteria. The dirt thrown by the pro-British press seemed to have been completely wrung out when Netaji Bose's Indian National Army adopted it as the National Anthem; this was followed by Gandhiís declaration in 1946 that "the song has found a place in our national life": that it was "also like a devotional hymn".But it was not as if it was all smooth sailing for the story of Jana Gana Mana's popularity. The first round of controversy -- this time by the Indians themselves - had been stoked in 1937. But it became a much more general one from the late 1940's when a debate broke out over what was to be the National Anthem. A section within the Congress wanted the Bande Mataram, a song that was popularly associated with the national movement. ButBande Mataram was controversial since its invocation of the nation as a Goddess went against Islamic theology which forbade the worship of any God other than Allah. Also the Bande Mataram had been successfully converted into a sign of communal antagonism by Hindu communalists (with the enthusiastic participation of their Muslim counterparts who regarded the song as a horrible provocation) and even chanted it as a slogan in riots. In the 1930's, a Congress sub-committee had short-listed some "national" songs that could be sung together with or instead of Bande Mataram. It was then proposed (on Tagore's initiative) that the first two stanzas of Bande Mataram could be sung. But this catholicity was not felt to be feasible after independence. Occasions involving foreign diplomatic missions or the Defence forces required that a single "National Anthem" be played by a band as a signature of the country. The Constituent Assembly was deputed to select the anthem. It was in the ensuing lobbying to knock Jana Gana Mana out of reckoning, that outworn and salacious bits of colonial misinformation about the song began to be recirculated. Jana Gana Mana was chosen as anthem in 1950 over Bande Mataram as well as Iqbal's Sare Jahan Se Accha - although Bande Mataram was given "equal status". An important reason was that Bande Mataram could not be played by bands. Additionally Jana Gana Mana enjoyed an international reputation. It had been greatly appreciated in the United Nations at New York where it was first played as an orchestral arrangement in 1947. Many said that it was superior to most national anthems in the world. Within the country the overwhelming majority of the provinces supported its nomination.But there is also an underlying reason that is really responsible for the controversy popping up at regular intervals. The words of Bande Mataram feature India as a homogeneous Hindu nation. Jana Gana Mana evokes the country as composed of a multiplicity of regions and communities united in a prayer to a universal lord. After all,Bande Mataram was composed by a colonial administrator who could only visualize the nation in Hindu terms: religious identity was the only available idiom for conceptualizing the nation then. In contrast, Tagore had seen the riots that broke up the Swadeshi movement and had divined the obvious: religious nationalism easily divided anti-colonial struggles. Jana Gana Mana can be seen as one of the fruits of Tagore's search to find an alternate inclusivist definition for the nation. Incidentally, it was one of the harbingers of a decade that was to see Hindu and Muslim politicians draw together. In short, the two songs embody different ideas, histories and aspirations of the country.In fairness, the last word on the affair should really be given to the poet himself (incidentally he had composed the music for Bande Mataram). Answering a friend's query about the origins of the Jana Gana Mana in 1937, Tagore said that a loyalist friend had requested him to write a song in praise of the King. He had felt anger at his friends presumption about his loyalism. It was this anger that led him to compose Jana Gana Mana. He had written a song to a superior authority, the "Dispenser of India's destiny". Tagore concluded. "That great Charioteer of man's destiny in age after age could not by any means be George V or George VI or any George. Even my 'loyal' friend realized this; because, however powerful his loyalty to the King, he was not wanting in intelligence." I may add here that we normally sing the first verse alone: the third verse of the song refers explicitly to the eternal lord. Tagore said that he felt too pained by the unjustness of the charge to come out with a public refutation. Perhaps he was wrong. He could have considered the issue of survival. Not just of his public reputation. But also the survival of self-confidence in some of his future citizens who believe that they venerate their masters fifty years after independence. And that they can sing songs to a King, dead for an even longer period.(Readers interested in more information may look at P.Sen's India's National Anthem)* Pradip Kumar Datta teaches at Delhi University.
On 6 October 2011 02:29, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
              What an Imperialist-piyari British rule panderer! Rabindranath's 'jana gana mana' song was actually not too far from these sentiments.              Rabindranath had to deny the song's association with King George V's visit to India when confronted.  He bald faced lied.  What else could he do?  I have studied Rabindranath at length and know that he is clever about being dishonest.      Let us think culturally. Traditionally in Bengal, a patriotic song or hym to the land of one's birth is addressed to "Mother" -- the land being a female figure of feritility even in the Muslim tradition.  Bankim's 'Bande Mataram' is a typical model that was followed by many authors and composers including Muslim poets like Kazi Nazrul. In Iqbal's 'saare Jahan se accha' you don't get the image of Hindustan figuring as a dominant male. [That is the reason I strongly oppose the accusation of Bankim's 'Bande Mataram' being a communal song -- all 'saat koti' santaan of mother Bengal could be of any religion]              Suddenly, out of nowhere comes this weird, dangerous component of an idea of a MALE leader, or a commander -- adhinayaka -- a decider on behalf of jana-gana's mind!  Wow! That is against the concept of any religion.  Hindu or Muslim prayers to God are done in supplication --lead us from darkness to light; or cleanse us of impurities; bestow prosperity on us; or lead us on the the straight path and not on the path of those you have cursed, etc. Man's mind has the free-will, it is liable to go astray, hence the prayer to the deity for assistance in leading to Truth and righteousness.  But the idea of a dominant male commander of people's mind is utterly bewildering!              Rabindranath had often expressed satisfaction of being under the British rule in many of his prose writings. This is the fist time in history, he says,  that all of India is under one rule and one umbrella. His songs and literature is strewn with his intense Raja-preeti. 'Jana-gana-mana' is actually a Raja-vandana, a foreign Raja to whom all the provinces, rivers and seas of India are subservient.              Contrast jana gana mana with  Amar Sonar Bangla, which is composed eariler in a very different mood and with a very different political background of protessting the partitioning of Bengal by the British.  Here Rabindranath is addressing the Mother, which is perfectly natural.  Moreover, instead of a Brahmo samaj hymn tune he adopts a baul tune from a popular song that he heard from Gagon Harkara, the postman in Shelaidoho in East Bengal. Rabindranath used to love to sing the song himself. The American poet, Ezra Pound heard him sing the song in 1912 at the home of the artist Rothenstein in London.                More later.               Farida Majid
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:36:04 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved. 
This is what I think – most of Tagore's writing is directed to an imaginary deity. He never revealed what it was. As far as I know -Tagore never mentioned any particular deity in his writings. He was, obviously, aware the existence of this extraordinary spirit, and knew that the source was within him, not anywhere else, meaning it did not come from the sky. He mostly communicated with this spirit through his poems. We all have our own spirit within ourselves. We feel its presence, but cannot give a form to it. That is the God, I believe.
 
This particular poem in question was about praising the King of Bharat, and you cannot depict a King without a chariot. Chariot was not the vehicle of Shree Krishna; he rode one with Arjun as the Charioteer during the Kurukhetra War. So, Chariot does not explain the fact. And conch was like the bugle in those days.
 
You said – your mental speculation is based on eternal truth. I think - the truth is – we don't know the truth.
 
You think India is still under British rule, because our thoughts are still controlled by British. Let's make a mental picture of India in 2011, without the British rule. Shall we? What do you see? I see a nation somewhere in 12th or 13th century. Let me know what you see. Therefore, if you ask me – I am thankful to British for their help in rebuilding India with their modern amenities, education systems, and judiciaries. Yes, they took some wealth back to England. Why not? You do not expect everything for free. Do you? After all, they came to India for business and occupied India for 200 years. They could have taken everything without investing a penny in India. It seems to me that your thoughts are blinded by propaganda, so you are unable to see the benefits of the British rule.
 
Now, about mythological characters – my thought process is not influence by British. When I was born, British left India. If you use rational thinking, you will see the same. Let me give you a specific example of a mythological character. I was watching television the other day, and they were showing Durga Puja festivities in Kolkata. In just one Puja, they spent 40 million rupees to build the deity, and, so far, they already spent about 100 million rupees for this Puja. As soon as this Puja will be over, the same TV station will start showing us starving people dying on the street of Kolkata. Do you think Durga-Ma will relieve their pain and suffering? Now, tell me - what else we could do with that money. How about homeless/destitute senior citizen centers or boarding school for orphans?  Don't you think that would please God more? I think so.
 
Anyway, these are my personal views, not influenced by anybody or anything. Thanks for initiating the discussion, and exchanging your thoughts.  
 
Jiten Roy
--- On Tue, 10/4/11, nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2011, 11:11 AM

 
I have logically deduced it from Tagore's writings. Who else is an Eternal Charioteer, who possesses a conch. You are underestimating both Tagore and his works. It is mental speculation but it is based on the highest truths. If Tagore were a liar anybody can become a Tagore. It is truth that differentiates Tagore from the rest of the poets. British rule still exists in India and the beliefs that they imposed on us are very much alive and well supported by us.



--- On Mon, 10/3/11, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 3, 2011, 8:25 PM

How do you know what Tagore thought when he wrote that song? He was a poet; he could be thinking any imaginary supernatural power, who he thought running Bharat. Krishna never ran Bharat. Did He? It's all guess and speculations. I think - British were right, most of the characters in the Hindu scriptures are mythological characters.
 
Jiten Roy--- On Mon, 10/3/11, nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 3, 2011, 11:38 AM

 
Dear All,
Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna. Please read the short article at
For the complete article read it at 
Please forward this mail to as many people as you can. The British created the myth that our gods and goddesses are mythological characters. This is not true and our Vedic scriptures confirm it. First we must get this sorted out before we create a plan for 2020 in my opinion.
Regards,
Nihar Singh












-- Peace Is Doable

This is what I think – most of Tagore's writing is directed to an imaginary deity. He never revealed what it was. As far as I know -Tagore never mentioned any particular deity in his writings. He was, obviously, aware the existence of this extraordinary spirit, and knew that the source was within him, not anywhere else, meaning it did not come from the sky. He mostly communicated with this spirit through his poems. We all have our own spirit within ourselves. We feel its presence, but cannot give a form to it. That is the God, I believe.

 

This particular poem in question was about praising the King of Bharat, and you cannot depict a King without a chariot. Chariot was not the vehicle of Shree Krishna; he rode one with Arjun as the Charioteer during the Kurukhetra War. So, Chariot does not explain the fact. And conch was like the bugle in those days.

 

You said – your mental speculation is based on eternal truth. I think - the truth is – we don't know the truth.

 

You think India is still under British rule, because our thoughts are still controlled by British. Let's make a mental picture of India in 2011, without the British rule. Shall we? What do you see? I see a nation somewhere in 12th or 13th century. Let me know what you see. Therefore, if you ask me – I am thankful to British for their help in rebuilding India with their modern amenities, education systems, and judiciaries. Yes, they took some wealth back to England. Why not? You do not expect everything for free. Do you? After all, they came to India for business and occupied India for 200 years. They could have taken everything without investing a penny in India. It seems to me that your thoughts are blinded by propaganda, so you are unable to see the benefits of the British rule.

 

Now, about mythological characters – my thought process is not influence by British. When I was born, British left India. If you use rational thinking, you will see the same. Let me give you a specific example of a mythological character. I was watching television the other day, and they were showing Durga Puja festivities in Kolkata. In just one Puja, they spent 40 million rupees to build the deity, and, so far, they already spent about 100 million rupees for this Puja. As soon as this Puja will be over, the same TV station will start showing us starving people dying on the street of Kolkata. Do you think Durga-Ma will relieve their pain and suffering? Now, tell me - what else we could do with that money. How about homeless/destitute senior citizen centers or boarding school for orphans?  Don't you think that would please God more? I think so.

 

Anyway, these are my personal views, not influenced by anybody or anything. Thanks for initiating the discussion, and exchanging your thoughts.  

 
Jiten Roy


--- On Tue, 10/4/11, nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 4, 2011, 11:11 AM

 
I have logically deduced it from Tagore's writings. Who else is an Eternal Charioteer, who possesses a conch. You are underestimating both Tagore and his works. It is mental speculation but it is based on the highest truths. If Tagore were a liar anybody can become a Tagore. It is truth that differentiates Tagore from the rest of the poets. British rule still exists in India and the beliefs that they imposed on us are very much alive and well supported by us.



--- On Mon, 10/3/11, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 3, 2011, 8:25 PM



How do you know what Tagore thought when he wrote that song? He was a poet; he could be thinking any imaginary supernatural power, who he thought running Bharat. Krishna never ran Bharat. Did He? It's all guess and speculations. I think - British were right, most of the characters in the Hindu scriptures are mythological characters.

 
Jiten Roy

--- On Mon, 10/3/11, nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna - Logically Proved.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, October 3, 2011, 11:38 AM

 
Dear All,

Tagore wrote Jana Gana Mana For Lord Krishna. Please read the short article at

For the complete article read it at 

Please forward this mail to as many people as you can. The British created the myth that our gods and goddesses are mythological characters. This is not true and our Vedic scriptures confirm it. First we must get this sorted out before we create a plan for 2020 in my opinion.

Regards,

Nihar Singh


















--
Peace Is Doable




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