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Thursday, November 17, 2011

Re: [mukto-mona] FW: MAULANA ABUL KALAM AZAD - HIS PASSION FOR FREEDOM AND COMMUNAL HARMONY ( Secular Perspective November 16-30, 2011)



I enjoy Asghar Ali Engineer's articles although I cannot agree with him on every point. In my reaction to his article on Gandhi posted last time I expressed my view that Gandhi's support of the Khilafat movement was not a wise decision. Azad was also a supporter of this movement. However, from Engineer's article we see that Azad very quickly realized his mistake. Such a reconsideration is possible for people with great political wisdom and openness of mind. He made more mistakes and was quick to engage in self-criticism. He has written them down in his "India Wins Freedom" (he was the sage and Humayun Kabir was the scribe in case of this book). It was about letting Nehru become Congress President instead of aspiring Ballav Bhai Patel. Initially Sher-i-Bangla wanted to avoid Muslim League (which basically served the interests of Muslim zaminders) and join hands with Congress. Subhash Bose and others wanted to accept Fazlul Haque's proposal, but Gandhi and Azad were against it. It has been reported that their decision was influenced by a Hindu businessman. To me that was another serious mistake Azad committed as that encouraged the Two-Nation Theory.      Quintssential gentleman Engineer has been very indirect in pointing out the real culprits behind the partition. He has not been very specific and made a very general observation. We all blame Jinnah. We hardly blame Congress leaders like Nehru or Azad. We hardly say a word on how the scheduled caste leaders felt as they were working with other leaders. For example, Jagjivan Ram wanted British to stay for ten more years as he speculated that interests of the scheduled caste people would not be properly protected in free India. We have example from Bengal and other parts of India.  

From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:59 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] FW: MAULANA ABUL KALAM AZAD - HIS PASSION FOR FREEDOM AND COMMUNAL HARMONY ( Secular Perspective November 16-30, 2011)

 
                    The British knew that the throbbing  heart of the glorious Indian civilization was the Hindu-Muslim unity and they were singlemindedly determined to destroy it.  They left no devious stone unturned towards that accomplishment.  Our leaders were too entranced with European Enlightenment to catch them do that destruction.  Instead of repairing the damage they widened the rift by their politics.

                      Today, all those who are carrying on the spreading of venom of communalism (in bloodshed, and often in the guise of religious fundamentalism) are the neo-colonialists of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, because they not only shun the 'freedom' from those evil imperialistic designs  embedded in communalism but are enemies of entire humanity.

                      Farida Majid

<< Thus when he became President of the Congress in Ramgarh session of the Cons, he, in his presidential address concluded his speech by saying that "even if an angle descends from heaven with a gift of freedom for India from Allah I would not accept it until there is Hindu-Muslim unity as loss of India's freedom is loss of India but loss of Hindu-Muslim unity is loss of entire humanity".
 
These are very profound words and for Maulana this was not mere rhetoric but was his deep commitment on the basis of his understanding of the Quran. Maulana's tafsir (commentary) of the Qur'an which he wrote in early twenties during his Ranchi incarceration and is considered as great contribution to tafsir literature from Indian subcontinent. >>
 


From: csss2work@gmail.com
To: secularperspective@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Secular Perspective] MAULANA ABUL KALAM AZAD - HIS PASSION FOR FREEDOM AND COMMUNAL HARMONY ( Secular Perspective November 16-30, 2011)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:53:49 +0530

MAULANA ABUL KALAM AZAD – HIS PASSION FOR FREEDOM AND COMMUNAL HARMONY
 
Asghar Ali Engineer
 
(Secular Perspective November 16-30, 2011)
 
Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was a unique Islamic personality of great Islamic scholarship, patriotism and passion for communal harmony. However, it is highly regrettable that his services to the country have almost been forgotten. From new generation school or even college going students I doubt even one percent would know him and his achievements. I, therefore, heartily welcomed when in a recent meeting of General body of Institute of Advanced Studies, Simla whose chairman is currently Prof. Mungekar, also a Rajya Sabha member, suggested that like Ambedkar a summer school be held for Maulana Azad also for college teachers so that they may be acquainted with Maulana's personality and achievements. In fact such summer schools for leaders like Maulana Azad, Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and others are overdue, particularly about Maulana Azad whose sacrifices for the country and its freedom are second to none.
 
Eleventh November 2011 was the Maulana's birthday and this year Government of India also remembered him and schools were asked to celebrate Maulana's birthday as it is also education day. However, due to Diwali vacations students had not returned from their native places and hence response was rather poor.
 
Maulana was son of Maulana Khairuddin of Calcutta (now Kolkatta) who was highly respected alim and had thousands of disciples. He had married an Arab woman from Mecca and Maulana was born there during Maulana Khairuddins stay there. Thus in a way Arabic was his mother tongue and Maulana had great command over it. He was brought up in orthodox Islamic tradition and his father wanted him to succeed him. If he had accepted this offer he also would have had large number of disciples and would have been highly influential like his father.
 
But the Maulana came under the influence of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and read his writings avidly. However, he was highly independent minded and soon distanced himself from Sir Syed's emphasis on loyalty to the British Empire though he accepted his views on modernity and modern education. Maulana was passionately committed to India's freedom and tried to join the underground movement in Bengal but unfortunately those underground leaders thought a Muslim is not fit for joining it.
 
For Maulana patriotism was an Islamic duty as the Prophet (PBUH) is reported to have said that love of ones country is part of ones faith (iman). And this love of country demanded its freedom from foreign slavery and thus he considered it his duty to free his country from British slavery. Thus he plunged into freedom movement from very young age. He became Congress President at a very young age, perhaps he was the youngest president of the Congress party.
 
He, like Gandhiji, knew Hindu-Muslim unity was very necessary for freedom of India. Thus when he became President of the Congress in Ramgarh session of the Congress, he, in his presidential address concluded his speech by saying that "even if an angel descends from heaven with a gift of freedom for India from Allah I would not accept it until there is Hindu-Muslim unity, as loss of India's freedom is a loss of India but loss of Hindu-Muslim unity is loss of entire humanity".
 
These are very profound words and for Maulana this was not mere rhetoric but was his deep commitment on the basis of his understanding of the Quran. Maulana's tafsir (commentary) of the Qur'an which he wrote in early twenties during his Ranchi incarceration and is considered as great contribution to tafsir literature from Indian subcontinent.
 
He has devoted the first volume of his tafsir (he could not complete it due to his highly busy political schedule and he had to write it all over again as the British police destroyed his earlier manuscript) to what he calls wahdat-e-din i.e. unity of religion. Maulana had deep conviction, as we find from his tafsir about unity of all religions and he has shown achievements of his scholarship on expanding this concept in his tafsir and that is why his pronouncement about Hindu-Muslim unity was not mere political rhetoric, much less opportunism, but a deep religious conviction.
 
Maulana was a great statesman and though he was great supporter of the Khilafat movement he was first to discard it when Kamal Pasha staged a coup in Turkey and removed the khalifa from power and declared the institution of khilafat as an outdated one. He also welcomed modern reforms of Ata Turk and advised Muslims to give up efforts for protecting institution of khilafat which Turkish leaders themselves had disowned.
 
Maulana also opposed Jinnah's demand for one-third representation for Muslims in parliament in when the Nehru Committee Report came for discussion before the Congress Session of 1928. He argued that in democracy no community can be given over representation and as for minority rights, Constitution can take care of them through special provisions as the Indian Constitution did by providing for Articles 25 to 30. Maulana always took long term vision and never fell for cheap popularity.
 
Azad did not agree with Jawaharlal Nehru on denying two cabinet seats to Muslim League in 1937 in U.P. as Muslim League lost in that election very badly. Maulana Azad advised Nehru to take two ministers nominated by Muslim League as refusal to take them will have long term adverse fall out and the Maulana proved right. Jinnah became furious and began to denounced the Congress government as the 'Hindu' Government which will never give justice to Muslims.
 
If Nehru had accepted Maulana's advice perhaps country could have been saved from partition though Nehru had his own reasons to deny two cabinet seats to Muslim League as he wanted to give Congress Muslims more representation. But Maulana thought otherwise on the basis of practical politics. Maulana always thought of future implications and not mere immediate consequences.
 
Nehru and Azad were not merely good friends but had deep respect for each other. Nehru has paid glorious tributes to Maulana for his scholarship and mastery over several languages. Maulana's knowledge of other religions was also very deep and profound. His commitment to womens rights was as if he lived today. It is well known that Muslim theologians generally do not support gender equality and want women to be confined to home. Maulana was one of the exceptions.
 
He translated the book published in Arabic in Egypt Al-Mir'at al-Muslimah i.e. The Muslim Woman which stands for gender equality and summarises the debate which was taking place in Egypt on women's rights and Azad chose to translate this book as he was in favour of gender equality. It is important to note that he commented on the verse 2:228 that "this is revolutionary declaration of gender equality more than 1300 years ago" (Maulana was writing in 1920s).
 
The only two other noted theologians who stood for gender equality from Indian sub-continent were Maulavi Mumtaz Ali Khan who was colleague of Sir Syed Ahmed Khan and Maulana Umar Ahmed Usmani who died recently in Karachi. Both were eminent theologians and were uncompromising in upholding gender equality.  Maulavi Mumtaz Ali Khan wrote a book Huquq al-Niswan (Rights of women) and Maulana Umar Ahmed Usmani wrote Fiqh al-Qur'an (Qur'anic Jurisprudence) in 8 volumes elaborately arguing for gender equality in Qur'an.
 
Maulana also had clearly predicted what is happening today in Pakistan. First, it is important to note that like his conviction about Hindu-Muslim unity, it was also Maulana's strong conviction that it would be wrong to divide India on religious ground. One who loves one's country can never divide it. Also, he knew that when democracy begins functional it has to take care of rights of minorities and Muslims were no mean minority. They were more than 25% before partition and today, if the country would not have been divided, they would have been more than 33%.
 
Maulana had predicted that today if Muslims think Hindus are their enemy tomorrow when Pakistan comes into existence, and there will be no Hindus they would fight among themselves along regional, ethnic and sectarian lines. He had clearly told this to some members of Muslim League who came to meet him before leaving for Pakistan. This is what is happening today in Pakistan.
 
Not only sectarianism has grown religious extremism is at its apex. Killing has become common and everyday affair. When religion is associated with politics, history of all religions show, power becomes far more important than religion and religious values. Power becomes goal and religion a mere instrument. Maulana knew this very well and that is why he was far more inclined towards a secular democratic polity than religious one.
 
However, Maulana could not prevail and save country from partition as powerful vested interests like feudal lords from U.P. and Bihar and Muslim middle classes (afraid that they may not get services or quick promotions) on one hand, and, the British imperial interests, on the other, were bent upon dividing the country. 
-------------------------------------------------------
Centre for Study of Society and Secularism
Mumbai:
     

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Re: [mukto-mona] Do inquisitive thoughts die in a religious-mind?



For Kamal Das:
By reading Bertrand Russell Subimal Chakrabarty came to know that Copernicus was a religious man. He "was a Polish eccelistic, of unpeachable orthodoxy." "---- he was a canon of frauenburg." "----prorested against the view that his theory contradicted the Bible." "----Copernicus, whose orthodoxy was sincere, ---- ." (A History of Western Philosophy (pp.526-27)).
 
For Jiten Roy:
Really! Prof. Salam became a believer and started growing beard after he had got Nobel Prize! He was an atheist before that? You are a physicist; you belong to his group. Can you substantiate your claim? Please. I am curious.   
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Do inquisitive thoughts die in a religious-mind?

 
Brahmin priests, for example, receive divine messages through the hairy antenna they thrive on the sculp. The moment they touch the holy thread commonly known as 'paite' they are endowed with heavenly power to solve all the problems on earth.

By the way, where did Subimal Chakravarty find that Copernicus was a religious man?

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:34 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
"My hypothesis is: Inquisitive thoughts die in a religious mind"---Jiten Roy
 
NOPE.
Copernicus, Darwin, Salam, and many more from all ages were religious and had inquisitive minds. You can give countless examples from other areas or disciplines. Two faculties of mind can act almost independently. Obviously, quality of thoughts will be affected by the level of religious belief. Even a religiously fanatic militant uses innovative thoughts in using latest technology.
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: Mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 10:26 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Do inquisitive thoughts die in a religious-mind?

 
Do inquisitive thoughts die in a religious-mind?
 
Many of us have overflowing deep passion for religion, which sometimes supersedes any other feelings or passions we may have, such as, passion for family or friends. We hear stories of people who leave family and friends to join religious cults, and, after a while, they don't even recognize their own parents and siblings. They forgo all previous attachments with everything, but religion. How and why this condition occurs to a most intelligent species on earth. How much brain-washing does it need to get there? I know non-religious ideologies, such as Nazism and Communism, have used similar form of brain-washing in the past. What's different in case of religion is that – brain-washing begins at home. After that, very little is needed to get hooked on to it. It's that much intoxicating!
 
Many parents send their kids to receive institutional brain-washing. After all, the institutional ones are the professional ones. The passion for religion varies from religion to religion. Passion becomes strong when people identify themselves through their religion. In this case, people could become too defensive of their religion - since it's their identity also. Those who belong to this class – are the devout religious individuals. They believe religion provides a complete code-of-life, meaning religion has prescriptions for most problems in life. They, not only believe in that, also practice it. You bring a problem to them – they will consult similar examples from their religious scripture, and come up with a solution. Is there anything wrong in doing so? Answer depends on the horizon of your quest.
 
Many of those super religionists cannot think outside the scriptural box, at all. They lead very simple lives, and they have ready solutions for most of their day-to-day problems. Why would they need to think at all?  Sriptures provide everything for them. The problem arises for those who are not happy with such simple lives or those who have quest for unknown. That is why, I believe, scientists, inventors, entrepreneurs, etc. are not highly religious people. My hypothesis is - inquisitive thoughts die in a religious mind. I know many of you will disagree with my hypothesis. My inquisitive mind is eager to hear from you.
 
Jiten Roy







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[ALOCHONA] Govts failed to protect HR workers, journos: AMNESTY

Govts failed to protect HR workers, journos: AI

Amnesty International (AI) on Thursday observed that the failure of
successive governments in protecting human rights defenders, including
journalists, has prevented the improvement of human rights situation
in Bangladesh.

The observation was disclosed in a joint press meet by AI and Odhikar,
a rights group, at the national Press Club in the capital.

"The successive governments in Bangladesh have failed to defend the
human rights defenders, despite the fact that it is the duty of the
government," he said.

"Both the present AL-led and the previous BNP-led governments have
failed to keep their promises made to AI over bringing the killers of
eight journalists, including Manik Saha and Balu, murdered between
2000 and 2005, to justice," he added.

AI also notes that the failure of successive governments is also
hindering empowerment of women in the country.

The conference was to protest alleged harassment of an Odhikar
activist, Shampa Goswami, of Satkhira on October 23.

http://theindependentbd.com/national/80254-successive-govts-failed-to-protect-hr-workers-journos-ai.html


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[ALOCHONA] US unemployment causes debt epidemic among college graduates : Bhola Cyclone 13 November 1970 : What is the real lesson of Bhola in 1970



US unemployment causes debt epidemic among college graduates

ক্রেডিটকার্ডে নাভিশ্বাস ঋণের বোঝা ছাপিয়ে মার্কিন যুক্তরাষ্ট্রে এখন শিক্ষাঋণের পরিমান প্রায় এক ট্রিলিয়ন ডলার।
এই প্রজন্মের ছাত্রছাত্রীদের একটি বিশাল অংশ ঋণের দায়ে জর্জরিত হয়ে ব্যাংকের কাছে জিম্মি হয়ে আছেন অথচ ডিগ্রী
থাকা সত্ত্বেও কোন চাকুরী পাচ্ছেন না। বিস্তারিতঃ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c481Qtrhz9M

http://ekush.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/bhola-cyclone-13-november-1970/

Bhola Cyclone 13 November 1970 : What is the real lesson of Bhola in 1970 :
মজলুম জননেতা মওলানা আব্দুল হামিদ খান ভাসানীর ৩৫তম মৃত্যুবার্ষিকী আজ। বিস্তারিতঃ

৪১ বছর পূর্বে, ১৯৭০ সালের ১৩ নভেম্বর ভয়াল কালো রাতে উপকূলীয় এলাকায় জলোচ্ছ্বাস তেড়ে আসে।
সরকারি হিসাবে প্রায় ৫ লক্ষ এবং বেসরকারী হিসাবে প্রায় ১০ লক্ষ আদম সন্তান স্রোতের টানে নদী-সমুদ্রগর্ভে-তীরে-ঢালে, ডালে-জলে-ঝোপে, চরে প্রাণ হারায়।
মজলুম জননেতা মওলানা আব্দুল হামিদ খান ভাসানীর ৩৫তম মৃত্যুবার্ষিকী আজ।
১৯৭০ সালের ৪ ডিসেম্বর ঢাকার পল্টন ময়দানে এক জনসভায় ভাষণ দিয়ে স্বাধীন পূর্ব পাকিস্তান দাবি উত্থাপন করেন।
৪১ বছর পূর্বে, ১৯৭০ সালের ১৩ নভেম্বর ভয়াল কালো রাতে উপকূলীয় হাতিয়া, চর আবদুল্লা, রামগতি, সন্দ্বীপ, ঢালচর, চর জব্বার, তজুমদ্দিন, চর কচ্ছপিয়া, চর পাতিলা, কুকরী মুকড়ী, মনপুরা, চরফ্যাশন, দৌলতখাঁন, ভোলা, বরগুনা, পটুয়াখালী, চট্টগ্রামসহ বিভিন্ন এলাকায় জলোচ্ছ্বাস তেড়ে আসে।
তখন ছিল রমজান মাস। সরকারি হিসাবে প্রায় ৫ লক্ষ এবং বেসরকারী হিসাবে প্রায় ১০ লক্ষ আদম সন্তান স্রোতের টানে নদী-সমুদ্রগর্ভে-তীরে-ঢালে, ডালে-জলে-ঝোপে, চরে প্রাণ হারায়।
একইসঙ্গে প্রাকৃতিক থাবায় কোটি কোটি টাকার পশু, মত্স্য, ফসল, রাস্তা, কালভার্ট, বাড়িঘর, স্কুল প্রতিষ্ঠান সম্পদ ধ্বংস হয়ে যায়।
দেশী-বিদেশী প্রচার মাধ্যমে এই ধ্বংসযজ্ঞের বর্ণনা ছিল
'মানুষের মৃতদেহগুলো কচুিরপানার ঝোপের মত সমুদ্রের দিকে ধাবিত হচ্ছে'।
৭০'র জলোচ্ছ্বাসের ফলে উপকূলীয় জনপদে পারিবারিক, সামাজিক, অর্থনৈতিক ভৌগলিক বন্ধনের বাঁধ ছিন্ন-ভিন্ন, হয়ে যায়।
ধ্বংসযজ্ঞের উপর দাঁড়িয়ে বেঁচে থাকা উপকূলীয় চরাঞ্চল স্থানীয়দের অসহায়ত্বসহ পূর্ব পাকিস্তানী জাতীয় রাজনৈতিক
চৈতন্যবোধের ঝাঁকুনিতে তত্কালীন পশ্চিম পাকিস্তানী নির্লিপ্ত শাসক-শোষকদের পিন্ডির মসনদে আঘাত হানে।
তখন উপকূলীয় এলাকায় জাতীয় পরিষদ নির্বাচন স্থগিত হয়।
We should pay close attention to the lessons of history, and the lessons of nature.
The lesson of how policy mismanagement led to public dissatisfaction and eventually contributed to national dismemberment is a stark reminder. It is a lesson that should not be lost on the politicians, policy-makers and people of Pakistan.
There is a reason why disasters require national solidarity. Without it, they can become even more disastrous and deeply buried fissures in the social fabric can burst forth in volcanic anger. As we look around at the political, policy and citizen response to the current floods, one sees too many who wish to turn disaster into a political opportunity. Those who do would be well advised to remember Bhola. Indeed, we would all be well advised to remember Bhola.
There are important lessons to learn from our own mistakes. For the sake of our present, if not of our past, let us resolve not to make the same mistakes again. Let us not forget what is the real lesson of Bhola in 1970, as of so many other tragedies: dissatisfaction in times of crisis can be a force of agony, and political catastrophe can sometimes grow from seeds sown in natural disaster.

বিস্তারিতঃ

জাহান হাসান
একুশ নিউজ মিডিয়া, লিটল বাংলাদেশ, লস এঞ্জেলেস





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[ALOCHONA] The 9/11 conspirators: Vindicated after all these years?

The 9/11 conspirators: Vindicated after all these years?

Alexander Cockburn

We are homing in on the tenth anniversary of the destruction of the
Wall Street Trade Towers and the attack on the Pentagon. One in seven
Americans and one in four among those aged 16-24, (so a recent poll
commissioned by the BBC tells us) believe that there was a vast
conspiracy in which the U.S. government was involved. But across
those ten years have the charges that it was an "inside job"—a
favoured phrase of the self-styled "truthers" — received any serious
buttress? The answer is no.

Did the Trade Towers fall because they were badly built as a
consequence of corruption, incompetence, regulatory evasions by the
Port Authority, and because they were struck by huge planes loaded
with jet fuel?

Explosives planted
No, shout the conspiracists, they "pancaked" because Dick Cheney's
agents–scores of them–methodically planted demolition charges in the
preceding days inserting the explosives in the relevant floors of
three vast buildings, (moving day after day among the unsuspecting
office workers), then on 9/11 activating the detonators. It was a
conspiracy of thousands, all of whom–party to mass murder–have held
their tongues ever since.

What has been the goal of the 9/11 conspiracists? They ask questions,
yes, but they never answer them. They never put forward an overall
scenario of the alleged conspiracy. They say that's not up to them. So
who is it up to? Whom do they expect to answer their questions? When
answers are put forward, they are dismissed as fabrications or they
simply rebound with another question.
Like most cultic persuasions they excitedly invoke important converts
to their faith and the "1500 architects and engineers in the USA" who
say the NIST official report is not thorough and needs another
investigation. It's a tiny proportion of the overall members of their
profession. At least 80 per cent of faculty economists in the US
believe stoutly in long-discredited theories that have blighted the
lives of millions around the world for decades. Their numbers don't
equate with intelligence, let along conclusive analysis.

The 9/11 conspiracists seize on coincidences and force them into
sequences they deem to be logical and significant. Their treatment of
eyewitness testimony and forensic evidence is whimsical. Apparent
anomalies that seem to nourish their theories are brandished
excitedly; testimony that undermines their theories–like witnesses of
a large plane hitting the Pentagon — is dismissed.
Many conspiracists say it wasn't a plane but a missile. (Other
conspiracists denounce the "no plane" Pentagon as wacko.)
Eye-witnesses of a large plane hitting the Pentagon — are
contemptuously brushed aside.

There are some photos of the impact of the "object" — i.e. the Boeing
757, flight 77 — that seem to show the sort of hole a missile might
make. Ergo, 757 didn't hit the Pentagon. It WAS a missile. It wasn't
smoke in some photographs obscuring a larger rupture in the fortified
Pentagon wall.

On this last matter, Chuck Spinney, now retired after years of
brilliant government service exposing the Pentagon's budgetary
outrages, tells me that "there ARE pictures taken of the 757 plane
hitting Pentagon — they were taken by the surveillance cameras at
Pentagon's heliport, which was right next to impact point. I have seen
them both — stills and moving pictures. I just missed seeing it
personally, but the driver of the van I just got out of in South
Parking saw it so closely that he could see the terrified faces of
passengers in windows. I knew two people who were on the plane. One
was ID'd by dental remains found in the Pentagon."

In fact hundreds of people saw the plane — people who know the
difference between a plane and a cruise missile. The wreckage of the
plane was hauled out from the site. Why does the obvious have to be
proved? Would those who were wounded or who lost friends and
colleagues that day assist in the cover up of a missile strike? Why
risk using a missile, when you had a plane in the air and ­- to take
one bizarre construct of the conspiracists — had successfully crashed
(by remote control!) two into much more difficult targets–the Trade
Towers?

This doesn't disturb the conspiracists. They're immune to any reality
check. Spinney "worked for the government." They switched the dental
records. The Boeing 757 was flown to Nebraska for a rendezvous with
President Bush, who shot the passengers, burned the bodies on the
tarmac and gave Spinney's friend's teeth to Dick Cheney to drop
through a hole in his trousers amid the debris in the Pentagon.

Saddam had WMD!
Of course there are conspiracies. The allegations that Saddam Hussein
had WMD amounted to just such a one. I think there is strong evidence
that FDR did have knowledge that a Japanese naval force in the north
Pacific was going to launch an attack on Pearl Harbour. It's quite
possible Roosevelt thought it would be a relatively mild assault and
thought it would be the final green light to get the US into the war.
It's entirely plausible to assume that the FBI, US military
intelligence, and the CIA, — as has just been rather convincingly
claimed again in the latter instance — had penetrated the Al Qaeda
team planning the 9/11 attacks; intelligence reports piled up in
various Washington bureaucracies pointing to the impending onslaught
and even the manner in which it might be carried out.

The history of intelligence operations is profuse with example of
successful intelligence collection, but also fatal slowness to act on
the intelligence, along with eagerness not to compromise the security
and future usefulness of the informant, who has to prove his own
credentials by even pressing for prompt action by the plotters.
Sometime an undercover agent will actually propose an action, either
to deflect efforts away from some graver threat, or to put the
plotters in a position where they can be caught red-handed.
There is not the slightest need to postulate pre-placed explosive
charges to explain why the towers collapsed at near free fall speeds.
As Pierre Sprey, a former plane and weapons designer who knows a great
deal about explosions, told me:

Concocted plan
"1. Any demolitions expert concocting a plan to hit a tall building
with an airplane and then use pre-placed explosives to UNDETECTABLY
ensure the collapse of the building would never place the explosives
20, 30 and 60 floors below the impact point. Obviously, he would put
the explosives on one or more floors as close as possible to the
planned impact level.

"2. It is inconceivable that our demolitions expert would time his
surreptitious explosions to occur HOURS after the aircraft impact. He
couldn't possibly be absolutely certain that the impact fires would
even last an hour. Quite the opposite: to mask the booster explosions,
he'd time them to follow right on the heels of the impact.

"3. To ensure collapse of a major building requires very sizable
demolition charges, charges that are large enough to do a lot more
than emit the "puffs of smoke" cited as evidence for the explosives
hypothesis. I've seen both live and filmed explosive building
demolitions. Each explosion is accompanied by a very visible shower of
heavy rubble and a dense cloud of smoke and dust. Just that fact alone
makes the explosives hypothesis untenable; no demolitions expert in
the world would be willing to promise his client that he could bring
down a tall building with explosions guaranteed to be
indistinguishable from the effects of an aircraft impact."
Herman Soifer, a retired structural engineer, summarized the collapse
of Buildings 1 and 2 succinctly, in a letter to me, remarking that
since he had followed the plans and engineering of the Towers during
construction he was able to explain the collapses to his wife a few
hours after the buildings went down.

"The towers were basically tubes, essentially hollow. Tubes can be
very efficient structures, strong and economical. The Trade Centre
tubes effectively resisted vertical loads, wind loads and vibrations
and could probably have done very well against earthquakes. However,
the relatively thin skin of the hollow tube must be braced at
intervals to prevent local buckling of the skin under various possible
loads, otherwise the tube itself can go out of shape and lose its
strength.
"For their interior bracing, the thin-walled tubes of the Twin Towers
depended primarily on the interior floors being tied to the outer wall
shells. These floor beam structures were basically open web joists,
adequate for the floor loads normally to be expected. These joist ends
rested on steel angle clips attached to the outer walls.

"As the floors at the level of airplane impact caught fire, the open
web joists, which could not be expected to resist such fires, softened
under the heat, sagged and pulled away from their attachments to the
walls. Their weight and the loads they were carrying, caused them to
drop onto the next lower floor, which was then carrying double loads
also becoming exposed to the heat. Then that floor collapsed, and so
it went. But as the floors dropped, they no longer served as bracing
for the thin-walled main tubes. This loss of bracing permitted the
walls to buckle outward in successive sections and thus the house of
cards effect."

High grade steel can bend disastrously under extreme heat. The types
of steel used in the WTC Towers (plain carbon, and vanadium) lose
steel lose half their strength when heated to about 570 C , and even
more as temperatures rise, as they did in WTC 1 and 2, to 1100 C.

The conspiracists' last card is the collapse of WTC building number 7
some hours after the morning attacks. But here again, as with the
other two buildings, the explanations offered by the US government's
National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) are more than
adequate. Collapse was caused by the rupturing of the building's metal
framework due to the thermal expansion of its floor beams, which were
heated by uncontrolled fires because the water main that supplied the
building's fire suppression system had been cut by the collapse of WTC
1.

The NIST team said that the smallest blast event capable of crippling
the critical column would have produced a 'sound level of 130 to 140
decibels at a distance of half a mile,' yet no noise this loud was
reported by witnesses or recorded on videos. Sound at 130 to 140
decibels is about as loud as humans can tolerate, beyond this power
one is really encountering a blast wave, a jump in pressure that
delivers sensible force. Examples of loud sounds and their effects
include: a jet engine at 100 meters (110-140 dB), hearing damage due
to short term exposure, for example front row at a rock concert (120
dB), threshold of pain (130 dB), a rifle being fired at 1 meter (140
dB).

As discussed in Wayne Barrett and Dan Collin's excellent book Grand
Illusion, about Rudy Giuliani and 9/11, helicopter pilots radioed
warnings nine minutes before the final collapse that the South Tower
might well go down and, repeatedly, as much as 25 minutes before the
North Tower's fall.

Corrupt conspiracies
What Barrett and Collins brilliantly showed are the actual corrupt
conspiracies on Giuliani's watch: the favouritism to Motorola which
saddled the firemen with radios that didn't work; the ability of the
Port Authority to skimp on fire protection, the mayor's catastrophic
failure in the years before 9/11/2001 to organize an effective unified
emergency command that would have meant that cops and firemen could
have communicated; that many firemen wouldn't have unnecessarily
entered the Towers; that people in the Towers wouldn't have been told
by 911 emergency operators to stay in place; and that firemen could
have heard the helicopter warnings and the final Mayday messages that
prompted most of the NYPD men to flee the Towers.

That's the real political world, in which Giuliani and others have
never been held accountable. The conspiracists disdained the real
world because they wanted to promote Bush, Cheney and the Neo-Cons to
an elevated status as the Arch Demons of American history, instead of
being just one more team running the American empire, a team of more
than usual stupidity and incompetence (characteristics I personally
favour in imperial leaders). Actually, what Bush and Cheney never
demonstrated was the slightest degree of competence to pull anything
like this off. They couldn't even manufacture weapons of mass
destruction after US troops had invaded Iraq, and when any box
labelled "WMD" would have been happily photographed by the embedded
U.S. press as conclusive testimony. Arch-demon Cheney and his retinue
of neo-cons couldn't even contrive a provocation sufficient to justify
his aim of waging war on Iran or giving Israel the green light to do
so. Each day he gnashed his teeth as Bush, Condoleezza Rice and the
Joint Chiefs of Staff foiled his machinations.

At least what Obama may have done is remind the left – at least those
not forever besotted — that Bush and Cheney are not that much
different from the politicians and overlords of U.S. foreign policy
who preceded them or followed them.

Scarcely surprising
9/11 conspiracism, perhaps at last somewhat on the wane, penetrated
deep into the American left. It has also been widespread on the
libertarian and populist right, but that is scarcely surprising, since
the American populist right instinctively mistrusts government to a
far greater degree than the left, and matches conspiracies to its
demon of preference, whether the Internal Revenue Service, the Federal
Emergency Management Agency, Black Helicopters or the Jews and now
Muslims.

These days a dwindling number of leftists learn their political
economy from Marx. Into the theoretical and strategic void has crept a
diffuse, peripatic conspiracist view of the world that tends to locate
ruling class devilry not in the crises of capital accumulation, or the
falling rate of profit, or inter-imperial competition, but in locale
(the Bohemian Grove, Bilderberg, Ditchley, Davos) or supposedly
"rogue" agencies, with the CIA still at the head of the list. The 9/11
"conspiracy", or "inside job", is the Summa of all this foolishness.

One trips over a fundamental idiocy of the 9/11 conspiracists in the
first paragraph of the opening page of the book by one of their high
priests, David Ray Griffin, The New Pearl Harbour. "In many respects,"
Griffin writes, "the strongest evidence provided by critics of the
official account involves the events of 9/11 itself in light of
standard procedures for dealing with hijacked airplanes not one of
these planes should have reached its target, let alone all three of
them."

The operative word here is "should". A central characteristic of the
conspiracists is that they have a devout, albeit preposterous belief
in American efficiency. Many of them start with the racist
premise–frequently voiced in as many words in their writings — that
"Arabs in caves" weren't capable of the mission.
They believe that military systems should work they way Pentagon press
flacks and aerospace salesmen say they should work.
They believe that at 8.14 am, when AA flight 11 switched off its radio
and transponder, an FAA flight controller should have called the
National Military Command centre and NORAD.

US Air Force
They believe, citing reverently (this is high priest Griffin, who has
written no less than ten books on 9/11) "the US Air Force's own
website," that an F-15 could have intercepted AA flight 11 "by 8.24,
and certainly no later than 8.30."??They appear to have read no
military history, which is too bad because if they did they'd know
that minutely planned operations–let alone by-the-book responses to an
unprecedented emergency — screw up with monotonous regularity, by
reason of stupidity, cowardice, venality and all the other failings,
not excepting sudden changes in the weather.

History is generous with such examples. According to the minutely
prepared plans of the Strategic Air Command, an impending Soviet
attack would have prompted the missile silos in North Dakota to open,
and the ICBMs to arc towards Moscow and kindred targets. The four test
launches actually attempted all failed, whereupon the SAC gave up
testing. Was it badly designed equipment, human incompetence, defence
contractor venality or conspiracy?

Did the April 24, 1980 effort to rescue the hostages in the US embassy
in Teheran fail because a sandstorm disabled three of the eight
helicopters, or because the helicopters were poorly made, or because
of agents of William Casey and the Republican National Committee
poured sugar into their gas tanks in yet another conspiracy? Have the
US military's varying attempts to explain why F-15s didn't intercept
and shoot down the hijacked planes stemmed from absolutely predictable
attempts to cover up the usual screw-ups, or because of conspiracy? Is
Mr Cohen in his little store at the end of the block hiking his prices
because he wants to make a buck, or because his rent just went up or
because the Jews want to take over the world? Bebel said anti-Semitism
is the socialism of the fools.

The conspiracy virus is an old strand. The Russians couldn't possibly
build an A bomb without Commie traitors in the U.S. The Russians are
too dumb. Hitler couldn't have been defeated by the Red Army marching
across Eastern Europe and half Germany. Traitors let it happen. JFK
couldn't have been shot by Oswald — it had to be the CIA. RFK couldn't
have been shot by Sirhan–it had to be the CIA.

Cabals of white Christians
There are no end to examples seeking to prove that Russians, Arabs,
Viet Cong, Japanese, etc etc couldn't possibly match the brilliance
and cunning of secret cabals of white Christians.
Michael Neumann, a philosopher, and CounterPunch contributor, at the
University of Trent, in Ontario, remarked in a note to me:

"I think the problem of conspiracy nuttery has got worse, and is part
of a general trend. There really were serious questions about the
Kennedy assassination, an unusual number of them, and it wasn't too
crazy to come to the wrong conclusion. There wasn't a single serious
question about 9-11. The main engine of the 9-11 conspiracy cult is
nothing political; it's the death of any conception of evidence.
"This probably comes from the decline of Western power. Deep down,
almost everyone, across the political spectrum, is locked in a bigotry
which can only attribute that decline to some irrational or
supernatural power. The result is the ascendancy of magic over common
sense, let alone reason."

Yet some have discovered a silver lining in the 9/11 conspiracism. A
politically sophisticated leftist in Washington, DC, wrote to me,
agreeing with my ridiculing of the "inside job" scenarios, but adding,
"To me the most interesting thing (in the US) is how many people are
willing to believe that Bush either masterminded it [the 9/11 attacks]
or knew in advance and let it happen. If that number or anything close
to that is true, that's a huge base of people that are more than
deeply cynical about their elected officials. That would be the real
news story that the media is missing, and it's a big one."

"I'm not sure I see the silver lining about cynicism re government," I
answered. "People used to say the same thing about the JFK conspiracy
buffs and disbelief in the Warren Commission. Actually, it seems to
demobilize people from useful political activity. If the alleged
perpetrators are so efficiently devilish in their plots, all
resistance is futile. 9/11 conspiracism stemmed from despair and
political infantilism. There's no worthwhile energy to transfer from
such kookery. It's like saying some lunatic shouting to himself on a
street corner has the capacity to be a great orator.

Anyone whoever looked at the JFK assassination will know that there
are endless anomalies and loose ends. Eyewitness testimony is
conflicting, forensic evidence possibly misconstrued, mishandled or
just missing. But in my view, the Warren Commission, as confirmed in
almost all essentials by the House Committee on Assassinations in the
late 1970s, had it right and Oswald fired the fatal shots from the
Schoolbook Depository. The evidentiary chain for his guilt is
persuasive, and the cumulative scenarios of the conspiracists entirely
unconvincing. But of course–as the years roll by, and even though no
death bed confession has ever buttressed those vast, CIA-related
scenarios — the conspiracists keep on toiling away, their obsessions
as unflagging as ever.

Richard Aldrich's book on British intelligence, The Hidden Hand
(2002), describes how a report for the Pentagon on declassification
recommended that "interesting declassified material" such as
information about the JFK assassination "could be released and even
posted on the Internet, as a 'diversion,'" and used to "reduce the
unrestrained public appetite for 'secrets' by providing good faith
distraction material". Aldrich adds, "If investigative journalists and
contemporary historians were absorbed with the vexatious, but rather
tired, debates over the grassy knoll, they would not be busy probing
into areas where they were unwelcome."

The conspiracists have combined to produce a huge distraction, just as
Danny Sheehan did with his Complaint, that mesmerized and distracted
much of the Nicaraguan Solidarity Movement in the 1980s, and which
finally collapsed in a Florida courtroom almost as quickly as the
Towers.
There are plenty of real conspiracies in America. Why make up fake ones?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This essay is drawn from the author's contribution to CounterPunch's
CounterPunch Special Report: Debunking the Myths of 9/11, where Manuel
Garcia Jr, physicist and engineer, presented his three reports,
undertaken for CounterPunch and where Joann Wypijewski wrote her
essay "Conversations at Ground Zero" after a day spent with people at
the site. Courtesy:CounterPunch.Org

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[ALOCHONA] Ghostly deal on Dhaka airport

VISUAL DEFENCE INC:Ghostly deal on Dhaka airport

It looks strange that in recent times all corruption scandals
involving the country's important economic installations are
originating with the Canadian firms, although the country is rated as
a corruption-free nation.
Next to the corruption scandal involving a Canadian firm with the
Padma Bridge project, the latest such scandalous disclosure came with
yet another Canadian firm called Visual Defense Inc (VDI) regarding
Hajrat Shahjalal International Airport's security arrangement.
The firm's proposal includes upgrading the security system at the
airport at a cost of US$ 40 million. Against that capital expenditure,
project proposals said the firm will be authorised to collect $35
against each outgoing passenger for the next 25 years.
This money should be collected from the air ticket booking agencies
which will add the security fees to the cost of the tickets. It
appears that the company would spend only Tk 300 crore and recover
around Tk 900 crore each year for the next quarter century.

The weird arithmetic defies common sense, but some Canadian firms are
showing their eerie involvement in the nation's highly sensitive
economic installations with obvious money laundering motives.
The question is who those people are behind such stealthy moves,
political observers here wondered.
Civil Aviation Minister G M Quader said he is not in favour of giving
the contract to questionable firms in questionable circumstances
without open tender bid. Moreover, he says he does not see reason or
urgency to go into such arrangement.

Minister threatened
The minister complained last week that he was threatened by unknown
people for his objection to agree to the deal with the Canadian firm.
But he said no such deal will be allowed to take place, no matter
whatever threats come on him.
The government has recently ordered an investigation into a move made
by the firm to upgrade the security of the airport following
disclosure that the documents submitted by the company were largely
inaccurate and false.
It appears that a vested interest group with reported support from a
section of officials of the civil aviation ministry and the Civil
Aviation Authority were promoting the case to hand over the security
arrangement of the airport to the Canadian firm.
The proposal remained abandoned for quite some time but suddenly it
started moving with a letter from the Prime Minister's office that
such deal may be processed on public-private partnership basis.
The proposal passed out of the cabinet purchase committee with due
approval clearing the way to signing the deal and take steps to hand
over security control to the firm when minister G M Quader sensed
there was something wrong.
He immediately sent a letter to Geneva-based International Association
of Travel Agents (IATA) to verify the claim of the Canadian firm that
it was the only 'strategic partner' of the agency authorised to give
security protection to international airports highly vulnerable to
terrorist threats.

Suspicion, too high fees
He took the move when he saw that the Canadian firm has used IATA logo
on the letterhead along with its own logo giving rise to suspicion.
The reply was quick and sharp. It denied of such partnership and
moreover advised the government not to engage such firms to upgrade
the airport's security.
IATA further said the proposal to collect US$ 35 per ticket was too
high. There is not a single airport in the world collecting such high
fees on security account. Moreover IATA will not allow such
arrangement to take effect without discussion with the booking agents.
The minister was further at a loss to see that VDI's first letter to
the government is now missing from the ministry's dossiers. It
suggested that a very powerful quarter is active behind it, he
indicated.
VDI vice president Eugene Gerstine said last week, ''We are officially
withdrawing our proposal to the People's Republic of Bangladesh, until
such time when you feel comfortable to proceed with the reported
cabinet committee decision to implement the up-gradation proposal."
He also threatened the minister for taking legal action for news
report on the issue in the local press.

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Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?



Mr. Rahman

Being dumb yourself, you see others as dumb.  I did not present the question you deem dumb, it is the theory of Professor Sven Kalisch.  He teaches Islamic history and culture at a German University.  You can debate with him if you like.  Apparently, you don't know that after the prophet was missing for days the news spread of his death.  Even Hajrat Umar did not believe it and came with an unscathed sword to the abode of Ayesha where he met Abu Bakr who cooled him down.  Then Abu Bakr and Umar belonged to one group who coerced others into submission to the caliphate of Abu Bakr.  The last sermon had nothing to do with his death.

By the way do you know that the prophet was not even circumcised.  Thus he broke the covenant of Abraham with God.

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:30 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 

Member Das,

No mainstream Muslim scholar agrees with YOUR narratives on Islam or our holy prophet (PBUH). Earlier you presented a dumb question by asking IF the last messenger of God (PBUH) ever existed? I have read many DIFFERENT commentaries and spoken to many scholars and NEVER heard such absurd claims.

Either way, the prophet (PBUH) did die a natural death and last time I checked English speaking world does not label that as "Dubious"!! NO way!!

Before the death of the noble prophet (PBUH) he gave his famous sermon during the last hajj, which was so complete and powerful that, it indicated the end of his work on earth. He started by saying...

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY....................................

[ Source: Last hajj sermon]


http://soundvision.com/info/hajj/lastsermon.asp

I cannot stop writing on religious issues as long people like yourself come up with ridiculous and false information about Islam. Someone needs to supply correct information about it. That is all I am doing. Earlier, I have supplied books about the noble prophet by world famous scholars from all corners of the globe and NONE of them talks about the "FICTIONAL" topic YOU brought up here ( About janaja). If this was one time mistake, I would have accept it as such. However you keep coming up with WRONG information about Islam!!

Logically it cannot be an accident. It is deliberate and it says a lot about you!!

Mainstream narrative of Islam and the last prophet (PBUH) is well known. The last prophet (PBUH) was probably the most documented human being on the face of the earth. His speeches, practices, ideals, values were preserved by his followers as per his direction.

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sunnah/


I am unable to see what was so dubious about his death? People were shocked, sad and confused. When a beloved leader dies, it is the natural response from people.

I have given names of books and scholars in an earlier post. If Islam and prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is always in your mind, I invite you to read about him. It would be helpful if you know about the topic you want to critic. ;-)

Shalom!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:27 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?

 
If you need the sources on the death of the prophet, you should stop writing on religious issues.  Ask any maulana and find out or read the Cambridge History of Islam, or 'Islam and the West' by Norman Daniel.

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:44 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Even the prophet died under dubious conditions and did not get janaja.


>>>>> SOURCES PLEASE???

-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:31 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?

 
If Mr. Mustafizur Rahman does not see that the dominant contemporary religions are based on the geocentric model of the universe, and sees the ancient and medieval periods were not bad periods, no debate is possible.  Nobody can single a period that was good.  As he is a believer in Islam, may I point out that out of the four 'rightly guided' Caliphs, the first one was poisoned to death while the rest were killed. While Omar was bleeding to death, he requested the majlis members not to make his son the Caliph under any condition.  Usman was killed by a group of assassins in the mosque while reading the 'holy' Koran, and Ali was speared to death.  The killers of Usman asked Ali to take over the Caliphate, his dead body was left without a janaja for days.  Even the prophet died under dubious conditions and did not get janaja.  The Shias insist that he was killed by two of his wives, daughters of the first two Caliphs. 

I am really impressed by the depth of ignorance of these mullahs who are using this forum to spread the 'values' of Islam.

2011/11/14 MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
 
Equal opportunity critic to all religions? Why? Why criticize all religions? Medieval period was not a bad period. In English literature this word is at times used in a negative sense. Human progress went through - as the West has categorized it - stages like iron period, bronze period, medieval period etc. Can you single out one period that was bad? If you disbelieve in the very existence of God, that is a different matter. But what will you do with the billions of people who do believe in the existence of a Creator and seek His assistance?

Mustafizur Rahman


To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: qrahman@netscape.net
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:36:52 -0500

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?

 

You have been sharing orientalist myths about Islam. Modern day scholars do not buy these any more. Such orientalists also spread lies against Hindus as well. Which prompted Swami Vivekananda to visit USA over hundred years ago. He went there to answer to those myths and explain his faith to the west.

Over and over I have asked you to share SOURCES of your info but only got unclear answers. Please clarify your positions or take this opportunity to learn something new.

Peace.


-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 13, 2011 8:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?

 
I do not spread venom against Islam.  I am an 'equal opportunity' critic to all religions, and every medieval tendency to invoke God as an answer to all problems.   I refer to historical facts when some 'religious' men use this forum to spread Islam.

2011/11/12 MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
 
Kamal Das, Jiten Roy etc,

Will you STOP taking advantage of this Forum and refrain from spreading your venom against Islam?

Mustafizur Rahman


To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: kamalctgu@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:07:31 +0600

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?

 
The core message was not convincing enough even to Abu Talib, the mentor and the protector of the prophet.  The message is to obtain 72 houries and 28 gillmans in the afterlife with an everlasting erection.  Even Ibn Sina wondered, how the prophet, being the intelligent man that he was, spread such rubbish.  Then he came up with his own intelligent solution!  Consider the intelligence of the average people of medieval times, and you have the answer.

About the animal sacrifice, it is the practice in many cultures.  The poor animal dies to serve the religion.  In the primitive times, the first  child was to be sacrificed as an expiation to the cardinal sin from which every child is born.  Abraham himself was a butcher in the temple of Melech.  As he was not sure of his fatherhood of his children, given his age and inability to sire any during his life, he exiled Ismael and Hagar to Mecca, and took Isaac to sacrifice as burnt offering to Moloch.  But he changed his mind later and told the Canaanites that God intervened in the last moment.  Abraham was used to telling lies.  Earlier he passed Sarah as his sister to gain material advantages. 

Animal sacrifice has been a common practice across the world. There was no cheaper way to feed people in feasts.  Cow sacrifice by Indian Muslims are intended only to anoy the local Hindus.  Such practice is not the Arabian norm.


On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 4:48 PM, sentu tikadar <sentu92003@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

You are right these were acts of half educated idiots who do not understand the core message of Islam.
 
What is the core message ?

 What is the core message of Islam?
 
Tolerance to other Faiths? 
 
Deny others' Faiths and indirectly condemn others' Faiths five times a day? And  brain washing five times per day (like advertisement) later the uncivilised indisciplined Beduin forget  Mohammad ?  So much endeavour to be remembered by ppeople just like a politician sex maniac.
 
What is the teaching? Killing people who would not accept his Faith and used the women of the defeated people. Told something good in Mecca and the same thing told in a reversed way in Medina.  He had written( actually by other) a Book copied from other Book (Bible) because he knew he could not write a completely new  Book out of nothing.So he had taken the easiest and ready- made way. Just Copy and relate him with taht Book's men. So intelligent he was. 
 
Just see the Qurbani in Idd? How people can cut throat the cow which he garlanded with flowers? Giving flowers garland means showing respect to it? After showing respect and / or love it is cut. Desert culture has ruined us. It had divided us. It had killed us. It had made us animals from human. That's why Saudi never allows other to follow their religions in open? In Kashmir, In Pakistan, in Bangladesh , even in India (Deganga of West Bengal) temples' deities demolition is a noble job.
 
They don't feel any pity to that cow? In Pakistan some children stay night with the cow or goat putting flower garlands around its neck. In the morning that animal is cut throat? Height of cruelty !!!  This is the culture mid east had given to us. We borrowed the hard religion from desert while we were not the desert people. 
Is this the teaching of real Allah? Giving pain to a living being Allah feels happy? Don't believe that Allah who is biased. Allah is not a democratic fellow? So the believers of that Allah can not be democratic. That's why most of the Allah believers democratic country are failed country. Who will accept Allah he must be ruled with iron hand otherwise he will loose faiths. So many trics Mahammad had understood and apllied. A real dictator of 1400 years ago. 











     
 
 
--- On Thu, 11/10/11, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 5:47 AM


 
Killing of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are right these were acts of half educated idiots who do not understand the core message of Islam.

However atheist people have done more murdering of innocents than any religious people. Stalin, Mao (Of china) etc done their part in killing anyone who had a different point of view.
-----Original Message-----
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 10, 2011 6:37 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?

 
Killing of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?

From: S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 2:16 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Respected all,
Atheists and secularists (who believe in naturalism and rationalism only and who deny role of religion in public life) are more menace to humanity, morality, civilization as history shows. Most of the wars including first and second great wars were waged by them.
Most of the people of religions are good people. Many of them are misguided by secular political leaders or some ignorant and aggressive religious bigots.
Religious people of all religions should fight these exploiters and stand for humanity, morality and social welfare.
 
Shah Abdul Hannan
 
From: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jiten Roy
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:42 AM
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
 
@Nihar Singh:
 
The true religious people - who are they? Whether they bother anybody or not - is not the issue. The issue is how much is their contribution towards the advancement of the modern society? Are people, who take part in the communal riots or blowup innocent people in the name of religion, any less religious? You may think so - but they don't.
 
@Kamal Das:
The New Testaments does not contain many of the violent verses of the Old Testament means these are not absolute truth. This is the point I am trying to make.
 
Thanks.
 
 
From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?

 
Truely religious people dont disturb anyone. On the other hand atheists try to make everyone atheists. That is true menace. Look at darwin he made everyone think that they eveolved from apes. Many jokers believe this to be true.



--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
To: "Mukto-mona" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 7:12 PM
Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
I have been asking this question lately to myself. I tried to find the roles and contributions (I mean, real contributions) of religious people in the society that brought us here from the beginning of time. What I envisioned is that - religion played a very insignificant role towards our social, moral, and scientific developments in this world. Most of these developments are made by religiously indifferent people. The religious people mostly deal with and talk about things that are out of this world. As a result, many of these religious people are misfits and menaces in the society.
 
Many argue that religion builds our moral character, and we learn good and bad from religion, etc. etc. I, on the other hand, think – good and bad we learn from our ancestors, and from our own experiences; religion has nothing to do with it. You might ask where our ancestors learned them from, in the first place. They learned good and bad from their ancestors' experiences, so on, and so forth. Most Chinese do not have any religion. When I asked a Chinese man - how most people there learn about good and bad without religion, he told me - they learn them from their elders' wisdoms. That's right; our ancestors transferred their knowledge and wisdom to us. Therefore, I truly believe – this world would have been a much better place without religion. Religions have divided us into many sectarian hateful clans, which are constantly fighting with one another.
 
Many of us believe that religious doctrines and dogmas are heavenly absolute entities. They forget that - many of those doctrines, dogmas, and interpretations have already been modified from the original preaching during emancipation. For example, Old Testament has been replaced by the New Testament, many Quranic interpretations have been changed, and many Vedic/Puranic practices and interpretations have been changed, etc., etc. That means - religious teachings and practices are subject to change with the time, which means they are not so heavenly endowments as we believe them to be. This is a critical point to remember. Those who think otherwise are the menaces in the society.
 
Jiten Roy










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