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Saturday, November 24, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] FW: The Real Boundaries of the Bible Belt



Economic advancement and literacy rate are positively correlated. On the other hand level of religiosity and literacy rate are negatively correlated. So generally it can be concluded that higher level of religious belief (that means a less fundamentalist in terms of religious belief) among the citizens should be indicative of economic advancement. It happens because of the fact that exposure to science, literature and other branches of modern knowledge enlightens the citizens so that the way they see religion is quite different from how one with outdated knowledge sees his religion. This also means that quality of education also matters a lot. Having said that I should also mention that for some people their mental faculty can hold both science and mon-science independently. What I mean is that a successful scientist in the field of evolution can still simultaneously hold a solid faith in creationism. 
Communalism in the bad sense (causing or trying to cause harm to the members of other communities) and religiosity do not seem to go hand in hand. But religions themselves if not interpreted with the modern spirits and used as political weapons consciously or unconsciously effectively make a believer communal. This is true for educated people who want to see their religion as offering the guiding principles for running the state. Many educated people justify the use of communalism as a defense mechanism. A less religious and even an irreligious educated person may resort to this mechanism. 
What has happened in the diaspora? I don't think the situation is any different from that in the respective countries viz.  the Indian subcontinental states. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 18, 2012, at 4:18 PM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:

 


In the India-Pakistan-Bangladesh subcontinental societies, it is no longer safe to believe that shift from religious to secular values is a sure indicative of economic advancement. The emergent middle class (both at home and in the diaspora abroad) has become more visibly religious and overtly communal.  Do you agree?


Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:04:01 -0800
From: fmayraj@yahoo.com
Subject: The Real Boundaries of the Bible Belt
To: farida_majid@hotmail.com



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Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire



Needless to say some people have become numb and dumb with the Palestinian-Israeli problem. I do not buy anymore the gospel that has been sung by naive liberals. Israel is a fact and it does not matter whether Arabs would accept it or not. Hamas should sit down and talk.
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire

 
"Israeli stubbornness has distorted secular politics in the region. Secular group is losing popularity at the cost of gaining popularity by the Islamist group."
This is what a Hamas supporter will tell you. They say Israel is giving them no choice but to take arms against them.
 
Yesterday - Israeli border guard shot one Palestinian, when a group of Palestinian youth approached towards the border. Israeli border guard fired a warning shot first. When they ignored warning shot, border guard fatally wounded one of them.  Now who is at fault here?
 
Obviously, no way can I judge the intent of this group of Palestinian. It could be a deadly teenager prank, without any rationale, or it could be planned to provoke the conflict again. If the latter assumption is right, this was a useless loss of life. Nothing will come out of such conflict, except pointless loss of lives. Instead, Hamas should sit down with Israelis and negotiate their demands with them after the cease fire. There is no other better way.
 
Jiten Roy
 
 
 

--- On Sat, 11/24/12, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Date: Saturday, November 24, 2012, 10:14 AM

 
"Israeli stubbornness has distorted secular politics in the region. Secular group is losing popularity at the cost of gaining popularity by the Islamist group."

The question is how did Indian secular politics distort the secular politics in the Indian subcontinent? How come most Pakistanis and Bangladeshis  would love to see Islam being the guiding principle of their two societies as if something is going to be lost if they adopt a true secular constitution and tradition? So, the Israeli argument is pretty much bogus as far as I can see. Israel has no choice but to be tough with its existence. They are surrounded by hostile neighbors, who want to finish them if they could at anytime. Just ask any of your Muslim friend! The mentality has not changed since 1940's and that has left Israel no choice but to be an ass-kicking monster. Like or not, that is the only way they can survive as a state. If they become secular and the other party would like to overwhelm the Jewish state with Arabian Muslim demography, the country would cease to exist in few years time. Why do you think that would be good for them?
-SD

PS. Muslims should think whether secularism is any good for them? It should not be conditional to how Israel and US, China, Russia and India have been treating them in their turfs. It bounds to be pretty much reciprocal. If Islamic countries want to be more Islamic, the others will treat their Islamic minorities with suspicion and distrust. It need two for Tango!

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire

 
Loss of life and property on the Gaza side was far more than that on the Israeli side. But there has been a positive outcome: Israel has agreed to relax blockade. Both sides have also agreed to continue talks to minimize blockade. Hopefully Israel will honor the ceasefire agreement and thereby help in bringing peace in the region. Despite constructive American efforts, Israel has never been very sincere. Israeli stubbornness has distorted secular politics in the region. Secular group is losing popularity at the cost of gaining popularity by the Islamist group. Believe it or not there is a strong movement among the Palestinians to be a part of a secular and democratic Israel. 
Our comments on the Palestinian issue sometimes reflect our ignorance about actually what has been and still is going on in that region. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 22, 2012, at 7:23 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
Many observers mentioned that, this "Showdown" was a trick by sitting Israeli PM to show strength right before the upcoming election in Israel. He wanted to send young Israeli men to Gaza which could have caused more lives from both sides.

The last adventure in Lebanon did not go as planned and the saw resistance in the north was much more structured than they expected. The old days of playing cowboy and Indian are pretty much over. They don't have as many friendly dictators to cover for Israeli adventures like before. The democratic leadership in the Arab world are more aware of aspirations of "Native population".

ALSO the rockets by Hamas was landing on civilian population and I don't want to see than either.

This ceasefire is a fragile one but I hope it will give people time to calm down and take stock. This ugly practice of sacrificing innocent civilians from both sides will not help going forward.

I hope Egyptian administration will bring much needed stability to the neighborhood and encourage Israel to end the savage occupation. Allow people of Gaza go back to "Normal" life (That we take for granted). A community of native Jews lived with local Muslims and Christians for many centuries. The "Settlers" are the one who messed up the whole picture. Both sides needs to make some sacrifices for the sake of peace. Our prophet Muhammad (PBUH) made huge sacrifices during his treaty at Hudaibiya and ended up solving many problems for the locals.

Wishing well for all of humanity.

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 4:51 am
Subject: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire

 


Good, shelling stopped. And the winner is .... Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood government.
 
Jiten Roy
 
_____________________________
 
 Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire
By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH and SARAH EL DEEB | Associated Press –  1 hr 12 mins ago
___       
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[mukto-mona] FW: Bismillahnews.in : Mursi Conspired in attack on Gaza by Israeli Zionists






Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:01:50 +0530
Subject: Bismillahnews.in : Mursi Conspired in attack on Gaza by Israeli Zionists


Mursi Conspired in attack on Gaza by Israeli Zionists


[Bismillahnews.in-24-11-12-New Delhi-Sohail Siddiqui] What we wrote three months earlier and we are the only one who wrote this. http://www.bismillahnews.in/?page_id=1036 Today every action of Mursi is proving that we were correct in our report. Mursi first with the Israeli co-operation attacked Sinai Mujahids the back bone of Palestinian resistance and then Mursi in connivance has weakened the Hamas by allowing Israel to carry on with impunity the mass murder of civilians in Gaza.Then Mursi emerged as a peace maker and Zionists stopped bombing Gaza on his mediation.Readers may as well be reminded that bismillahnews.in also exposed the secret oath ceremony which he took before the supreme council in an Egyptian Temple.

'New pharaoh' draws fire with new decree   http:// news.kuwaittimes.net /2012/ 11/ 23/new-pharaoh-draws-fire-with-new-decree/

The current wave of opposition against him by the Judges and aware people of Egypt has exposed Mursi's fascist game. Mursi is part of the big Zionist conspiracy against Hamas and Palestinian freedom.Egypt should have attacked Israel after Israel declared an unprovoked war on the Gaza civilians.Why did Mursi under Egypt not act ? Why did Obama not act ? Why did Obama called Mursi to play active role in not letting the war escalate in the region? Did Obama warned Mursi against military help for Gaza ? These were some of the question in the minds of the majority Muslims of the world who were not aware of Mursi's Zionist links. 

Hundreds of Gaza civilians were killed by the will and alliance of Mursi the Zionist agent in the skin of Brotherhood Party. Innocent babies and young children were killed and thousands are still critically injured.Chemical weapons were experimented on Muslim babies of Gaza.Why ? Mursi who started the game by blaming Sinai nationalists as Militants and jointly with Israel killed them for the crime committed by Mossad,carried on with his game to clean the area of "Militants" in the Gaza by allowing Israel to scare the Hamas leadership by fierce bombing on civilians and surrender for a compromise with Abbas'es Fateh in accepting the Palestine formula worked by US,UN and the Zionists.Has the Palestinian will ended to resist the Zonists ? Will Mursi with the Zionist help succeed in surrendering the Baitul Muqaddas our first Qibla Masjid Aqsa and Jeruselum to the Zionist? 
Mursi is a Zionist Agent : Egypt is again back in Israeli pocket

[Bismillahnews.in-10-08-12-New Delhi-Sohail Siddiqui] Shameless Mursi government is doing all to please his masters the Israeli Zionist state.In a report published in Israeli Newspaper Haaretz it has been revealed how the official Television channel of Egypt is rolling red carpet for Zionist embedded journalists in Tv talk shows on Sinai.Below is the complete report.

Egyptian state television has come under fire for a show in which an Israeli military analyst was interviewed, with some critics saying the newly appointed information minister should be sacked for the incident.

Eyal Alima, a correspondent for Israel Radio's Arabic service, was interviewed by phone, along with Egyptian and Palestinian analysts, on a Tuesday night program to discuss an attack by gunmen who killed 16 Egyptian border soldiers two days earlier.Funeral for Egyptian soldiers killed in Sinai attack

Minister for Information Salah Abdel-Maqsud quickly demanded an inquiry and issued instructions to the state broadcasting authority not to host any more Israelis, reported local media.

However, his action did not go far enough to please critics. The liberal National Gathering for Change, a non-governmental group, has called for the Islamist information minister to be dismissed and stripped of his membership at the independent Press Syndicate.

The group accused state television of pursuing "media normalization with the Zionist entity" − a term used in Egypt by those who reject the legitimacy of Israel.http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/egypt-tv-under-fire-for-hosting-israeli-analyst-after-sinai-attack-1.457311

In another pro Israeli step the Egyptian government had earlier after the false flag "terrorist" attack on its border killing 16 guards had shut down the border which is the life line to GAZA. Thus by closing the Rafah border Israel has achieved through the Mursi Government which it could not in 40 years.

Hamas urges Egypt to open border shut since Sinai attack

The Daily Haaretz reports http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/hamas-urges-egypt-to-open-border-shut-since-sinai-attack-1.457242 The head of the Hamas government in Gaza urged Egypt on Thursday to open a vital border crossing closed since gunmen killed 16 Egyptian guards in neighboring Sinai on Sunday.

Ismail Haniyeh pledged his support for Egypt's investigations of the attack, which has led to the biggest Egyptian military assault in the Sinai Peninsula in nearly 40 years.

"At the same time I call upon my brother, Egyptian President Mohammed Mursi to open the Rafah crossing, to regain a lifeline for Gaza," Haniyeh said at a dinner ending the daylong Ramadan fast.IDF soldiers look at wreckage of Egyptian military vehicle used in Sinai attack, August 6. 2012.

"Gaza could never be anything but a source of stability for Egypt," Haniyeh added, saying those responsible for the Sinai slayings were conspiring to tighten an Israeli blockade on Gaza in force since Hamas seized control of the territory in 2007.

Gaza's Islamist rulers have ruled out suggestions that Palestinian gunmen took part in the Sinai massacre, and have criticized Cairo for imposing "collective punishment" on the impoverished coastal enclave.

The Rafah crossing normally sees some 800 people a day leave for Egypt and beyond, and is the only window on the world for the vast majority of Gazans.

No one has claimed responsibility for Sunday's assault, in which the assailants seized two armored vehicles to storm an Israeli border crossing. One made it through before the attackers were killed by Israeli fire. The incident was the deadliest along the Israeli-Sinai border in decades.

In addition to challenging the durability of a 1979 Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty already strained by Western ally Hosni Mubarak's fall from power last year, the violence also raised questions about ties between Egypt's nascent Muslim Brotherhood-led government and Hamas in Gaza.

Egyptian officials suggested initially that Palestinian gunmen were involved in the Sinai attack.

Haniyeh denied this, arguing that the attack's "prime beneficiary was the occupation," a common shorthand for Israel by Hamas officials whose ideology rejects Israel's existence as a Jewish state.

"Gaza is innocent of this crime. Neither our investigations nor our contacts have proven so far anyone from Gaza was involved," Haniyeh said.

Danger Signals for entire Arab World

An Egyptian man pulls a copy of Al Ahram daily newspaper published in Cairo, Egypt, Dec. 15, 2008.

As Muslim Brotherhood rises to power, struggle begins for Egypt's press.Fierce controversy erupted when the committee selecting new editors for the government media decided on Al-Ahram's new editor-in-chief.

The increasing Zionist minded appointments of Egyptian Journalists in Important media outlets controlled by government is totally against the democratic norms of any society and Mursi has by these actions thrown even the last fig which covered his pro -Zionist mindset.

Egypt is under total Zionist occupation the drama of Arab spring was initiated by the Zionists and controlled by the Zionists.This sounds danger bells to the entire Arab World in the form of emergence of a stronger Israel in the area.

***************
--
Ahmed Sohail Siddiqui
Chief Editor, www.bismillahnews.in




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Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire



"Israeli stubbornness has distorted secular politics in the region. Secular group is losing popularity at the cost of gaining popularity by the Islamist group."

This is what a Hamas supporter will tell you. They say Israel is giving them no choice but to take arms against them.

 

Yesterday - Israeli border guard shot one Palestinian, when a group of Palestinian youth approached towards the border. Israeli border guard fired a warning shot first. When they ignored warning shot, border guard fatally wounded one of them.  Now who is at fault here?

 

Obviously, no way can I judge the intent of this group of Palestinian. It could be a deadly teenager prank, without any rationale, or it could be planned to provoke the conflict again. If the latter assumption is right, this was a useless loss of life. Nothing will come out of such conflict, except pointless loss of lives. Instead, Hamas should sit down with Israelis and negotiate their demands with them after the cease fire. There is no other better way.

 

Jiten Roy

 
 
 

--- On Sat, 11/24/12, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Date: Saturday, November 24, 2012, 10:14 AM

 
"Israeli stubbornness has distorted secular politics in the region. Secular group is losing popularity at the cost of gaining popularity by the Islamist group."

The question is how did Indian secular politics distort the secular politics in the Indian subcontinent? How come most Pakistanis and Bangladeshis  would love to see Islam being the guiding principle of their two societies as if something is going to be lost if they adopt a true secular constitution and tradition? So, the Israeli argument is pretty much bogus as far as I can see. Israel has no choice but to be tough with its existence. They are surrounded by hostile neighbors, who want to finish them if they could at anytime. Just ask any of your Muslim friend! The mentality has not changed since 1940's and that has left Israel no choice but to be an ass-kicking monster. Like or not, that is the only way they can survive as a state. If they become secular and the other party would like to overwhelm the Jewish state with Arabian Muslim demography, the country would cease to exist in few years time. Why do you think that would be good for them?
-SD

PS. Muslims should think whether secularism is any good for them? It should not be conditional to how Israel and US, China, Russia and India have been treating them in their turfs. It bounds to be pretty much reciprocal. If Islamic countries want to be more Islamic, the others will treat their Islamic minorities with suspicion and distrust. It need two for Tango!

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire

 
Loss of life and property on the Gaza side was far more than that on the Israeli side. But there has been a positive outcome: Israel has agreed to relax blockade. Both sides have also agreed to continue talks to minimize blockade. Hopefully Israel will honor the ceasefire agreement and thereby help in bringing peace in the region. Despite constructive American efforts, Israel has never been very sincere. Israeli stubbornness has distorted secular politics in the region. Secular group is losing popularity at the cost of gaining popularity by the Islamist group. Believe it or not there is a strong movement among the Palestinians to be a part of a secular and democratic Israel. 
Our comments on the Palestinian issue sometimes reflect our ignorance about actually what has been and still is going on in that region. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 22, 2012, at 7:23 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
Many observers mentioned that, this "Showdown" was a trick by sitting Israeli PM to show strength right before the upcoming election in Israel. He wanted to send young Israeli men to Gaza which could have caused more lives from both sides.

The last adventure in Lebanon did not go as planned and the saw resistance in the north was much more structured than they expected. The old days of playing cowboy and Indian are pretty much over. They don't have as many friendly dictators to cover for Israeli adventures like before. The democratic leadership in the Arab world are more aware of aspirations of "Native population".

ALSO the rockets by Hamas was landing on civilian population and I don't want to see than either.

This ceasefire is a fragile one but I hope it will give people time to calm down and take stock. This ugly practice of sacrificing innocent civilians from both sides will not help going forward.

I hope Egyptian administration will bring much needed stability to the neighborhood and encourage Israel to end the savage occupation. Allow people of Gaza go back to "Normal" life (That we take for granted). A community of native Jews lived with local Muslims and Christians for many centuries. The "Settlers" are the one who messed up the whole picture. Both sides needs to make some sacrifices for the sake of peace. Our prophet Muhammad (PBUH) made huge sacrifices during his treaty at Hudaibiya and ended up solving many problems for the locals.

Wishing well for all of humanity.

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 4:51 am
Subject: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire

 


Good, shelling stopped. And the winner is .... Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood government.
 
Jiten Roy
 
_____________________________
 
 Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire
By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH and SARAH EL DEEB | Associated Press –  1 hr 12 mins ago
___       
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (2)
Recent Activity:
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190 =




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Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire



Hamas might be less corrupt but the way it has taken its own people as hostage during the last fight with Israel is far more criminal than being corrupt. Hamas needs to deliver to its people. Firing more rudimentary rockets towards Israel won't cut!
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire

 
You are right. Arafat used to lead a 'Secular group" for decades but they are very corrupt!

So religious leaning parties are gaining popularity. I hope they will evolve and avoid violence as much as possible. Egypt's brootherhood played a positive part in stopping loss of innocent lives. Hamas also need to evolve and mature into diplomacy.

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Nov 23, 2012 3:56 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire

 
Loss of life and property on the Gaza side was far more than that on the Israeli side. But there has been a positive outcome: Israel has agreed to relax blockade. Both sides have also agreed to continue talks to minimize blockade. Hopefully Israel will honor the ceasefire agreement and thereby help in bringing peace in the region. Despite constructive American efforts, Israel has never been very sincere. Israeli stubbornness has distorted secular politics in the region. Secular group is losing popularity at the cost of gaining popularity by the Islamist group. Believe it or not there is a strong movement among the Palestinians to be a part of a secular and democratic Israel. 
Our comments on the Palestinian issue sometimes reflect our ignorance about actually what has been and still is going on in that region. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 22, 2012, at 7:23 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
Many observers mentioned that, this "Showdown" was a trick by sitting Israeli PM to show strength right before the upcoming election in Israel. He wanted to send young Israeli men to Gaza which could have caused more lives from both sides.

The last adventure in Lebanon did not go as planned and the saw resistance in the north was much more structured than they expected. The old days of playing cowboy and Indian are pretty much over. They don't have as many friendly dictators to cover for Israeli adventures like before. The democratic leadership in the Arab world are more aware of aspirations of "Native population".

ALSO the rockets by Hamas was landing on civilian population and I don't want to see than either.

This ceasefire is a fragile one but I hope it will give people time to calm down and take stock. This ugly practice of sacrificing innocent civilians from both sides will not help going forward.

I hope Egyptian administration will bring much needed stability to the neighborhood and encourage Israel to end the savage occupation. Allow people of Gaza go back to "Normal" life (That we take for granted). A community of native Jews lived with local Muslims and Christians for many centuries. The "Settlers" are the one who messed up the whole picture. Both sides needs to make some sacrifices for the sake of peace. Our prophet Muhammad (PBUH) made huge sacrifices during his treaty at Hudaibiya and ended up solving many problems for the locals.

Wishing well for all of humanity.

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 4:51 am
Subject: [mukto-mona] Fw: Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire

 


Good, shelling stopped. And the winner is .... Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood government.
 
Jiten Roy
 
_____________________________
 
 Israel and Hamas agree to Gaza cease-fire
By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH and SARAH EL DEEB | Associated Press –  1 hr 12 mins ago
___       
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (2)
Recent Activity:
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****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190 =




__._,_.___


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Call For Articles:

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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