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Sunday, January 6, 2013

[mukto-mona] Why does God test us?





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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity



Sorry again, 'more' has been used twice, once is enough.  Winter has entered into my head.

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 9:09 AM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
Please read 'Robert Boyle' instead of 'Michael Faraday'.  Sorry for the oversight.  These days, it is generally agreed, Sir Isaac was more of an alchemist more than anything else.


On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
Sir Isaac spent more time researching on theology than on science.  His last years were spent on describing the topology of heaven and hell.  His writings on theology were considered unpublishable and much of his manuscripts was burned.  He was a liar too, the story of the apple falling on his head was one such blatant lie.  The law of Gravitation was a product of application of Leibniz's calculus on Kepler's laws of heavenly motion and not due to a rotten apple hitting his head.  I wish a mountain fell upon him, as a manifestation of divine justice, afterwards for having propagated such lies!

During his lifetime, Michael Faraday, being of aristocratic birth and original contribution, was more prominent.  Isaac stole first two laws of motion from Galileo, methods of calculus from Leibniz, and a lot of other things that goes as his contributions, from other people of eminence.  His corpuscular theory of light was rejected right away, but gained some weight after the invention of the quantum theory.


On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Subimal,

 

This is what I think. Newton was looking for 7 spectrums of light based on his belief, and when he could not find it he just introduced the indigo as a spectrum, and everybody accepted it. I think – this is what Dr. Das is referring to. He is right, the contrast between blue and indigo is not as distinct as other spectrums. I never thought about this issue, until Dr. Das raised it. I am going to agree with Dr. Das that indigo may not be a fundamental color, but a derived color, like tan, cyan, magenta, purple, etc.

 

My question was did the idea of seven colors come from the 7th heaven thought? I do not know the answer. 

 

Again, science and religion need not mix; these are two different philosophies applicable to two different worlds. Ideally, religion should start where science ends. In this context, scientists can subscribe to both philosophies simultaneously. Nothing is wrong with that practice as long as they keep these two worlds separate. Problem is people try to mingle these two worlds, which is a fruitless exercise, in my view.

 

Jiten Roy

 

--- On Sun, 1/6/13, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, January 6, 2013, 1:33 PM


 

Thanks for asking me this question. My answer is a big NO. That's I have said that Newton's interpretation was unfortunate. For a brief period of despair Rabindranath experimented with planchette. Even at the age of 36, Jagadish Bose heard the clear voice of the river Bhagirathi telling him that she came from the "jataa" of Mahadev, and so on.
I feel good that as a physicist you have not yet found any thing thing wrong in what I have written below. Please feel free. I want to learn. I have made the same request to Prof. Das. 

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2013 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
 
Do you think idea of "7th-Haven" came from seven heavenly lights? Just a thought!

--- On Sun, 1/6/13, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, January 6, 2013, 11:09 AM

 
You are in the appropriate trade, so you will know better. Let me know if I am wrong. The visible portion of the electromagnetic radiation lying between infrared and ultraviolet radiation is a continuum and hence theoretically should have infinite colors, not only six or seven. So identification of I (Indigo) and B (Blue) in the well known VIBGYOR may not be artificial as we expect many more colors in this range not identifiable by our naked eyes. I am curious. 
By the by, I googled and found that telescope was not invented by Galileo. But it seems to be accepted by all that Newton built the first practical reflecting telescope. Telescopes are used to study planets. They are also used in labs along with the spectrometer. You can probably tell if Newton used telescope for this purpose. I thought he did. A prism disperses white light---knowledge of sixth-seventh grade science is enough to know this. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Now let me come to the main point. Was Newton ever influenced by theological beliefs in his scientific research? You have said, yes. I do not challenge that. It can happen. That is unfortunate. But if we look at his overall achievement, we see that experimentation and empirical observations were the basis of his formulations. It is the combination of sweat, systematic thought process, and genius that can lead to revolutionary discoveries and inventions.    
On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:23 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
I initiated it by saying that, being influenced by his faith, Newton saw seven colors in the spectrum in place of six, and the scientific community stuck to it.  I cited the example to show how faith influences science to a remarkable extent.

Reflecting telescope is irrelevant as a prism was used to disperse the components of sunlight.  You really have an appreciable ability to mix up things.
On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
My statement was: Newton built the first reflecting telescope. The statement is still valid. 
I will still stick to my conclusion. Creative geniuses like Kalidas, 
Newton, Ramanujan, and Jagadish Bose were believers, but their achievements had nothing to do with gods or goddesses.  Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
You did it again, a reflection does not disperse sunlight into its components; refraction through a prism does.
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Newton built the first reflecting telescope. That should have been the sentence.  Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 3, 2013, at 8:01 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
As usual you are wrong.  Telescope was invented by Galileo, and not Newton.  He decomposed sunlight by passing a beam of it through a prism, and not through a telescope.  Read basic physics again before you write something on it, Mr. Chakrabarty.

For Kalidas, about whose life little is known, it is very likely that his wife, Vidyadharee, came looking for him after she kicked him out of her bed.  He was found sitting on a stone besides the river Ksipra and contemplating suicide,  He misidentified her as the Goddess of learning, which in his days was named Kali/Saraswati.  In the mean time, one shock had opened his poetic nerve in the brain.  However, in the middle of a dark night, only her breasts were visible by the light emitted from her necklace, and he composed, "..Kuchajuga shovita muktahare"
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 10:23 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Jagadish
 Bose wrote an article in 1894 blending science with mythology. In his childhood he asked the Ganges, "River, where are you coming from?" He heard the voice of the Ganges, "From the jataa (interwoven hair) of Mahadev." At the age of 36, he asked the same question and he still heard the same distinct voice of the river Ganges, "Mahadever jataa hoite." There is no reason to believe that his scientific mind really heard the voice. Kalidas believed that it was the goddess Saraswati who made him write all the beautiful verses. The other day we read an article on the Indian mathematician Ramanujan who believed that all the theorems were revealed to him in dream from a god or goddess. Newton was a religious man. But his scientific works were not based on any faith. This is true for Jagadish Bose, Ramanujan, and all other scientists and mathematicians and even this is true for all the prophets or sages to whom knowledge was revealed. All the creations by humans were the result of sweat shed by them. There was nothing divine about them. Newton had to invent a telescope, for example, to study the nature of light.     
On Jan 1, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
One example of how faith influences science is the spectrum of sunlight as described by Sir Isaac Newton.  Nobody with common sense would find a difference between Blue and Indigo, but Newton did.  I suppose, he was deeply influenced by his heretic faith of Christian faith called Arian heresy.  He believed in the existence of seven heavens in which seven archangels sang religious songs, and probably as the light emitted by them reached the surface of earth, it became white(or colorless).  Religion is primitive science based mainly on cosmology and herbal therapy.  Mesopotamian civilization, in spite of being an advanced one compared to that of the Egyptians, did not need an afterlife and God(s) who would behave like a tyrant king, but the Egyptians needed such a creation of the priest king named Menes.
On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:59 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I believe you misread my comments. What I said is - how scientific assumptions can cross over to faith. Let me give you an example, some scientists believe in the man-made global warming theory, and when data did not support their belief, they manipulated data to stick to their belief. That's how science crosses over to faith.

Now, what is eternity? It's a big unknown, isn't it? Anytime you face an unknown, you are apprehensive about it, that's what I call a fear of the unknown. As you board a plane, you are apprehensive about what's lying ahead. This is a natural psychological response. Eternity is one such unknown. It is quite natural to wonder about the eternity. As we approach it - we get apprehensive about it. It's a fact. Isn't it? What's unscientific about the fear of eternity? I don't get it. Why are you thinking about punishment or reward? I am not talking about it?  I am talking about psychological response to the eternity, which is natural, if not scientific. Isn't it?

I think - you are trying to establish something that you already believe in, which I call faith-based discussion. Under this situation, you will not conceive alternative argument.

Jiten Roy
--- On Mon, 12/31/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, December 31, 2012, 7:54 AM
 
It may not be proper to use faith in the context of science. Science uses assumption, axiom, postulate, and hypothesis. But all of these are not wild guesses or imaginations. It is true that no formal proofs are offered, but they can be obvious and theories bases on these can have prediction capabilities. It follows the so called scientific method. 
Eternity of human life can be a philosophical proposition not a scientific one. So if you say that you have fear of eternity, then you are saying this on the basis of faith. Fear, right path, etc. cannot be scientific constructs, they can well fit into a religion--Godless or without God. Right path is a relative term and can be an important topic in ethics and moral philosophy. 
You have decided on your right path and as a matter of fact we all do. These are obviously important for an individual and the society he belongs to, but this is beyond the jurisdiction of science. 
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Assumption becomes faith when it is considered as truth, without any evidence. Scientists often assume (hypothesize) something, then investigate about its validity or truth. If they fail to validate, and yet believe in it, that becomes a faith.
 
There is another kind of assumption, in which a model is assumed which helps explain some unknown phenomena. If someone thinks that the model is the truth, and asks others to accept it - it becomes his faith. God and eternity are such phenomenological models to explain some unknowns. A scientist can assume these concepts if they help him understand those unknowns. Models can be physical structures or mathematical expressions. Therefore, if models have physical structures, they can be understood in a physical sense, as the concept of Gods and Goddesses in idols.
 
Fear of eternity/unknown is always with us. Such fears keep us in line. Some people can easily overcome fear of eternity or unknown, and can do certain things that most others can't imagine.
 
Jiten Roy
 
--- On Sun, 12/30/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, December 30, 2012, 9:13 AM

 
Fear of Unknown eternity? My humble question: Can a scientist believe in eternity in the physical sense? What is this fear about? Is it about any punishment that you may have to face? If this is so, then what are the remedies? Good works? Don't all these boil down to a concept of faith?  Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 28, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I don't know if my belief in God is circumstantial or what; it could be due to the fear of unknown eternity also. But, one thing I know for sure – I have no fear of God, if you are asking about that. I try to do everything right; that's all. Some people believe in almighty God, yet always claim to be victims of aggression from others. 
 
Anyway, I don't dwell on the existence of God or its form






__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
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Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity



Please read 'Robert Boyle' instead of 'Michael Faraday'.  Sorry for the oversight.  These days, it is generally agreed, Sir Isaac was more of an alchemist more than anything else.

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
Sir Isaac spent more time researching on theology than on science.  His last years were spent on describing the topology of heaven and hell.  His writings on theology were considered unpublishable and much of his manuscripts was burned.  He was a liar too, the story of the apple falling on his head was one such blatant lie.  The law of Gravitation was a product of application of Leibniz's calculus on Kepler's laws of heavenly motion and not due to a rotten apple hitting his head.  I wish a mountain fell upon him, as a manifestation of divine justice, afterwards for having propagated such lies!

During his lifetime, Michael Faraday, being of aristocratic birth and original contribution, was more prominent.  Isaac stole first two laws of motion from Galileo, methods of calculus from Leibniz, and a lot of other things that goes as his contributions, from other people of eminence.  His corpuscular theory of light was rejected right away, but gained some weight after the invention of the quantum theory.


On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Subimal,

 

This is what I think. Newton was looking for 7 spectrums of light based on his belief, and when he could not find it he just introduced the indigo as a spectrum, and everybody accepted it. I think – this is what Dr. Das is referring to. He is right, the contrast between blue and indigo is not as distinct as other spectrums. I never thought about this issue, until Dr. Das raised it. I am going to agree with Dr. Das that indigo may not be a fundamental color, but a derived color, like tan, cyan, magenta, purple, etc.

 

My question was did the idea of seven colors come from the 7th heaven thought? I do not know the answer. 

 

Again, science and religion need not mix; these are two different philosophies applicable to two different worlds. Ideally, religion should start where science ends. In this context, scientists can subscribe to both philosophies simultaneously. Nothing is wrong with that practice as long as they keep these two worlds separate. Problem is people try to mingle these two worlds, which is a fruitless exercise, in my view.

 

Jiten Roy

 

--- On Sun, 1/6/13, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, January 6, 2013, 1:33 PM


 

Thanks for asking me this question. My answer is a big NO. That's I have said that Newton's interpretation was unfortunate. For a brief period of despair Rabindranath experimented with planchette. Even at the age of 36, Jagadish Bose heard the clear voice of the river Bhagirathi telling him that she came from the "jataa" of Mahadev, and so on.
I feel good that as a physicist you have not yet found any thing thing wrong in what I have written below. Please feel free. I want to learn. I have made the same request to Prof. Das. 

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2013 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
 
Do you think idea of "7th-Haven" came from seven heavenly lights? Just a thought!

--- On Sun, 1/6/13, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, January 6, 2013, 11:09 AM

 
You are in the appropriate trade, so you will know better. Let me know if I am wrong. The visible portion of the electromagnetic radiation lying between infrared and ultraviolet radiation is a continuum and hence theoretically should have infinite colors, not only six or seven. So identification of I (Indigo) and B (Blue) in the well known VIBGYOR may not be artificial as we expect many more colors in this range not identifiable by our naked eyes. I am curious. 
By the by, I googled and found that telescope was not invented by Galileo. But it seems to be accepted by all that Newton built the first practical reflecting telescope. Telescopes are used to study planets. They are also used in labs along with the spectrometer. You can probably tell if Newton used telescope for this purpose. I thought he did. A prism disperses white light---knowledge of sixth-seventh grade science is enough to know this. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Now let me come to the main point. Was Newton ever influenced by theological beliefs in his scientific research? You have said, yes. I do not challenge that. It can happen. That is unfortunate. But if we look at his overall achievement, we see that experimentation and empirical observations were the basis of his formulations. It is the combination of sweat, systematic thought process, and genius that can lead to revolutionary discoveries and inventions.    
On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:23 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
I initiated it by saying that, being influenced by his faith, Newton saw seven colors in the spectrum in place of six, and the scientific community stuck to it.  I cited the example to show how faith influences science to a remarkable extent.

Reflecting telescope is irrelevant as a prism was used to disperse the components of sunlight.  You really have an appreciable ability to mix up things.
On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
My statement was: Newton built the first reflecting telescope. The statement is still valid. 
I will still stick to my conclusion. Creative geniuses like Kalidas, 
Newton, Ramanujan, and Jagadish Bose were believers, but their achievements had nothing to do with gods or goddesses.  Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
You did it again, a reflection does not disperse sunlight into its components; refraction through a prism does.
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Newton built the first reflecting telescope. That should have been the sentence.  Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 3, 2013, at 8:01 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
As usual you are wrong.  Telescope was invented by Galileo, and not Newton.  He decomposed sunlight by passing a beam of it through a prism, and not through a telescope.  Read basic physics again before you write something on it, Mr. Chakrabarty.

For Kalidas, about whose life little is known, it is very likely that his wife, Vidyadharee, came looking for him after she kicked him out of her bed.  He was found sitting on a stone besides the river Ksipra and contemplating suicide,  He misidentified her as the Goddess of learning, which in his days was named Kali/Saraswati.  In the mean time, one shock had opened his poetic nerve in the brain.  However, in the middle of a dark night, only her breasts were visible by the light emitted from her necklace, and he composed, "..Kuchajuga shovita muktahare"
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 10:23 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Jagadish
 Bose wrote an article in 1894 blending science with mythology. In his childhood he asked the Ganges, "River, where are you coming from?" He heard the voice of the Ganges, "From the jataa (interwoven hair) of Mahadev." At the age of 36, he asked the same question and he still heard the same distinct voice of the river Ganges, "Mahadever jataa hoite." There is no reason to believe that his scientific mind really heard the voice. Kalidas believed that it was the goddess Saraswati who made him write all the beautiful verses. The other day we read an article on the Indian mathematician Ramanujan who believed that all the theorems were revealed to him in dream from a god or goddess. Newton was a religious man. But his scientific works were not based on any faith. This is true for Jagadish Bose, Ramanujan, and all other scientists and mathematicians and even this is true for all the prophets or sages to whom knowledge was revealed. All the creations by humans were the result of sweat shed by them. There was nothing divine about them. Newton had to invent a telescope, for example, to study the nature of light.     
On Jan 1, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
One example of how faith influences science is the spectrum of sunlight as described by Sir Isaac Newton.  Nobody with common sense would find a difference between Blue and Indigo, but Newton did.  I suppose, he was deeply influenced by his heretic faith of Christian faith called Arian heresy.  He believed in the existence of seven heavens in which seven archangels sang religious songs, and probably as the light emitted by them reached the surface of earth, it became white(or colorless).  Religion is primitive science based mainly on cosmology and herbal therapy.  Mesopotamian civilization, in spite of being an advanced one compared to that of the Egyptians, did not need an afterlife and God(s) who would behave like a tyrant king, but the Egyptians needed such a creation of the priest king named Menes.
On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:59 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I believe you misread my comments. What I said is - how scientific assumptions can cross over to faith. Let me give you an example, some scientists believe in the man-made global warming theory, and when data did not support their belief, they manipulated data to stick to their belief. That's how science crosses over to faith.

Now, what is eternity? It's a big unknown, isn't it? Anytime you face an unknown, you are apprehensive about it, that's what I call a fear of the unknown. As you board a plane, you are apprehensive about what's lying ahead. This is a natural psychological response. Eternity is one such unknown. It is quite natural to wonder about the eternity. As we approach it - we get apprehensive about it. It's a fact. Isn't it? What's unscientific about the fear of eternity? I don't get it. Why are you thinking about punishment or reward? I am not talking about it?  I am talking about psychological response to the eternity, which is natural, if not scientific. Isn't it?

I think - you are trying to establish something that you already believe in, which I call faith-based discussion. Under this situation, you will not conceive alternative argument.

Jiten Roy
--- On Mon, 12/31/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, December 31, 2012, 7:54 AM
 
It may not be proper to use faith in the context of science. Science uses assumption, axiom, postulate, and hypothesis. But all of these are not wild guesses or imaginations. It is true that no formal proofs are offered, but they can be obvious and theories bases on these can have prediction capabilities. It follows the so called scientific method. 
Eternity of human life can be a philosophical proposition not a scientific one. So if you say that you have fear of eternity, then you are saying this on the basis of faith. Fear, right path, etc. cannot be scientific constructs, they can well fit into a religion--Godless or without God. Right path is a relative term and can be an important topic in ethics and moral philosophy. 
You have decided on your right path and as a matter of fact we all do. These are obviously important for an individual and the society he belongs to, but this is beyond the jurisdiction of science. 
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Assumption becomes faith when it is considered as truth, without any evidence. Scientists often assume (hypothesize) something, then investigate about its validity or truth. If they fail to validate, and yet believe in it, that becomes a faith.
 
There is another kind of assumption, in which a model is assumed which helps explain some unknown phenomena. If someone thinks that the model is the truth, and asks others to accept it - it becomes his faith. God and eternity are such phenomenological models to explain some unknowns. A scientist can assume these concepts if they help him understand those unknowns. Models can be physical structures or mathematical expressions. Therefore, if models have physical structures, they can be understood in a physical sense, as the concept of Gods and Goddesses in idols.
 
Fear of eternity/unknown is always with us. Such fears keep us in line. Some people can easily overcome fear of eternity or unknown, and can do certain things that most others can't imagine.
 
Jiten Roy
 
--- On Sun, 12/30/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, December 30, 2012, 9:13 AM

 
Fear of Unknown eternity? My humble question: Can a scientist believe in eternity in the physical sense? What is this fear about? Is it about any punishment that you may have to face? If this is so, then what are the remedies? Good works? Don't all these boil down to a concept of faith?  Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 28, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I don't know if my belief in God is circumstantial or what; it could be due to the fear of unknown eternity also. But, one thing I know for sure – I have no fear of God, if you are asking about that. I try to do everything right; that's all. Some people believe in almighty God, yet always claim to be victims of aggression from others. 
 
Anyway, I don't dwell on the existence of God or its form





__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

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Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity



Sir Isaac spent more time researching on theology than on science.  His last years were spent on describing the topology of heaven and hell.  His writings on theology were considered unpublishable and much of his manuscripts was burned.  He was a liar too, the story of the apple falling on his head was one such blatant lie.  The law of Gravitation was a product of application of Leibniz's calculus on Kepler's laws of heavenly motion and not due to a rotten apple hitting his head.  I wish a mountain fell upon him, as a manifestation of divine justice, afterwards for having propagated such lies!

During his lifetime, Michael Faraday, being of aristocratic birth and original contribution, was more prominent.  Isaac stole first two laws of motion from Galileo, methods of calculus from Leibniz, and a lot of other things that goes as his contributions, from other people of eminence.  His corpuscular theory of light was rejected right away, but gained some weight after the invention of the quantum theory.


On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Subimal,

 

This is what I think. Newton was looking for 7 spectrums of light based on his belief, and when he could not find it he just introduced the indigo as a spectrum, and everybody accepted it. I think – this is what Dr. Das is referring to. He is right, the contrast between blue and indigo is not as distinct as other spectrums. I never thought about this issue, until Dr. Das raised it. I am going to agree with Dr. Das that indigo may not be a fundamental color, but a derived color, like tan, cyan, magenta, purple, etc.

 

My question was did the idea of seven colors come from the 7th heaven thought? I do not know the answer. 

 

Again, science and religion need not mix; these are two different philosophies applicable to two different worlds. Ideally, religion should start where science ends. In this context, scientists can subscribe to both philosophies simultaneously. Nothing is wrong with that practice as long as they keep these two worlds separate. Problem is people try to mingle these two worlds, which is a fruitless exercise, in my view.

 

Jiten Roy

 

--- On Sun, 1/6/13, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, January 6, 2013, 1:33 PM


 

Thanks for asking me this question. My answer is a big NO. That's I have said that Newton's interpretation was unfortunate. For a brief period of despair Rabindranath experimented with planchette. Even at the age of 36, Jagadish Bose heard the clear voice of the river Bhagirathi telling him that she came from the "jataa" of Mahadev, and so on.
I feel good that as a physicist you have not yet found any thing thing wrong in what I have written below. Please feel free. I want to learn. I have made the same request to Prof. Das. 

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2013 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
 
Do you think idea of "7th-Haven" came from seven heavenly lights? Just a thought!

--- On Sun, 1/6/13, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, January 6, 2013, 11:09 AM

 
You are in the appropriate trade, so you will know better. Let me know if I am wrong. The visible portion of the electromagnetic radiation lying between infrared and ultraviolet radiation is a continuum and hence theoretically should have infinite colors, not only six or seven. So identification of I (Indigo) and B (Blue) in the well known VIBGYOR may not be artificial as we expect many more colors in this range not identifiable by our naked eyes. I am curious. 
By the by, I googled and found that telescope was not invented by Galileo. But it seems to be accepted by all that Newton built the first practical reflecting telescope. Telescopes are used to study planets. They are also used in labs along with the spectrometer. You can probably tell if Newton used telescope for this purpose. I thought he did. A prism disperses white light---knowledge of sixth-seventh grade science is enough to know this. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Now let me come to the main point. Was Newton ever influenced by theological beliefs in his scientific research? You have said, yes. I do not challenge that. It can happen. That is unfortunate. But if we look at his overall achievement, we see that experimentation and empirical observations were the basis of his formulations. It is the combination of sweat, systematic thought process, and genius that can lead to revolutionary discoveries and inventions.    
On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:23 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
I initiated it by saying that, being influenced by his faith, Newton saw seven colors in the spectrum in place of six, and the scientific community stuck to it.  I cited the example to show how faith influences science to a remarkable extent.

Reflecting telescope is irrelevant as a prism was used to disperse the components of sunlight.  You really have an appreciable ability to mix up things.
On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
My statement was: Newton built the first reflecting telescope. The statement is still valid. 
I will still stick to my conclusion. Creative geniuses like Kalidas, 
Newton, Ramanujan, and Jagadish Bose were believers, but their achievements had nothing to do with gods or goddesses.  Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
You did it again, a reflection does not disperse sunlight into its components; refraction through a prism does.
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Newton built the first reflecting telescope. That should have been the sentence.  Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 3, 2013, at 8:01 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
As usual you are wrong.  Telescope was invented by Galileo, and not Newton.  He decomposed sunlight by passing a beam of it through a prism, and not through a telescope.  Read basic physics again before you write something on it, Mr. Chakrabarty.

For Kalidas, about whose life little is known, it is very likely that his wife, Vidyadharee, came looking for him after she kicked him out of her bed.  He was found sitting on a stone besides the river Ksipra and contemplating suicide,  He misidentified her as the Goddess of learning, which in his days was named Kali/Saraswati.  In the mean time, one shock had opened his poetic nerve in the brain.  However, in the middle of a dark night, only her breasts were visible by the light emitted from her necklace, and he composed, "..Kuchajuga shovita muktahare"
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 10:23 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Jagadish
 Bose wrote an article in 1894 blending science with mythology. In his childhood he asked the Ganges, "River, where are you coming from?" He heard the voice of the Ganges, "From the jataa (interwoven hair) of Mahadev." At the age of 36, he asked the same question and he still heard the same distinct voice of the river Ganges, "Mahadever jataa hoite." There is no reason to believe that his scientific mind really heard the voice. Kalidas believed that it was the goddess Saraswati who made him write all the beautiful verses. The other day we read an article on the Indian mathematician Ramanujan who believed that all the theorems were revealed to him in dream from a god or goddess. Newton was a religious man. But his scientific works were not based on any faith. This is true for Jagadish Bose, Ramanujan, and all other scientists and mathematicians and even this is true for all the prophets or sages to whom knowledge was revealed. All the creations by humans were the result of sweat shed by them. There was nothing divine about them. Newton had to invent a telescope, for example, to study the nature of light.     
On Jan 1, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
One example of how faith influences science is the spectrum of sunlight as described by Sir Isaac Newton.  Nobody with common sense would find a difference between Blue and Indigo, but Newton did.  I suppose, he was deeply influenced by his heretic faith of Christian faith called Arian heresy.  He believed in the existence of seven heavens in which seven archangels sang religious songs, and probably as the light emitted by them reached the surface of earth, it became white(or colorless).  Religion is primitive science based mainly on cosmology and herbal therapy.  Mesopotamian civilization, in spite of being an advanced one compared to that of the Egyptians, did not need an afterlife and God(s) who would behave like a tyrant king, but the Egyptians needed such a creation of the priest king named Menes.
On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:59 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I believe you misread my comments. What I said is - how scientific assumptions can cross over to faith. Let me give you an example, some scientists believe in the man-made global warming theory, and when data did not support their belief, they manipulated data to stick to their belief. That's how science crosses over to faith.

Now, what is eternity? It's a big unknown, isn't it? Anytime you face an unknown, you are apprehensive about it, that's what I call a fear of the unknown. As you board a plane, you are apprehensive about what's lying ahead. This is a natural psychological response. Eternity is one such unknown. It is quite natural to wonder about the eternity. As we approach it - we get apprehensive about it. It's a fact. Isn't it? What's unscientific about the fear of eternity? I don't get it. Why are you thinking about punishment or reward? I am not talking about it?  I am talking about psychological response to the eternity, which is natural, if not scientific. Isn't it?

I think - you are trying to establish something that you already believe in, which I call faith-based discussion. Under this situation, you will not conceive alternative argument.

Jiten Roy
--- On Mon, 12/31/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, December 31, 2012, 7:54 AM
 
It may not be proper to use faith in the context of science. Science uses assumption, axiom, postulate, and hypothesis. But all of these are not wild guesses or imaginations. It is true that no formal proofs are offered, but they can be obvious and theories bases on these can have prediction capabilities. It follows the so called scientific method. 
Eternity of human life can be a philosophical proposition not a scientific one. So if you say that you have fear of eternity, then you are saying this on the basis of faith. Fear, right path, etc. cannot be scientific constructs, they can well fit into a religion--Godless or without God. Right path is a relative term and can be an important topic in ethics and moral philosophy. 
You have decided on your right path and as a matter of fact we all do. These are obviously important for an individual and the society he belongs to, but this is beyond the jurisdiction of science. 
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Assumption becomes faith when it is considered as truth, without any evidence. Scientists often assume (hypothesize) something, then investigate about its validity or truth. If they fail to validate, and yet believe in it, that becomes a faith.
 
There is another kind of assumption, in which a model is assumed which helps explain some unknown phenomena. If someone thinks that the model is the truth, and asks others to accept it - it becomes his faith. God and eternity are such phenomenological models to explain some unknowns. A scientist can assume these concepts if they help him understand those unknowns. Models can be physical structures or mathematical expressions. Therefore, if models have physical structures, they can be understood in a physical sense, as the concept of Gods and Goddesses in idols.
 
Fear of eternity/unknown is always with us. Such fears keep us in line. Some people can easily overcome fear of eternity or unknown, and can do certain things that most others can't imagine.
 
Jiten Roy
 
--- On Sun, 12/30/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, December 30, 2012, 9:13 AM

 
Fear of Unknown eternity? My humble question: Can a scientist believe in eternity in the physical sense? What is this fear about? Is it about any punishment that you may have to face? If this is so, then what are the remedies? Good works? Don't all these boil down to a concept of faith?  Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 28, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I don't know if my belief in God is circumstantial or what; it could be due to the fear of unknown eternity also. But, one thing I know for sure – I have no fear of God, if you are asking about that. I try to do everything right; that's all. Some people believe in almighty God, yet always claim to be victims of aggression from others. 
 
Anyway, I don't dwell on the existence of God or its form




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