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Sunday, October 22, 2017

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RED EYED AT HOME, TATTERS IN DIPLOMACY WITH BURMA, NO PRIZE FOR THE WORST PM OF BANGLADESH!!!



Point taken! However, I think a pure egalitarian democracy is rather an utopian idea and very much wishful thing to us. Is it being practiced anywhere... including some Scandinavian countries with their highly educated people with long tradition of good governance and democracy? I can't say that because they are not being treated equally under their system either. People still complain and fight and that is why Churchill is still right and valid about the system of damn democracy.

Not sure why you conclude that Police system, Defense, Judiciary and other institutions have not been changed since 1860? They all have been modified and updated gradually without any big announcements as far as I can see. Indian judiciary is not like the judiciary of 1860's? Policing is not the same as it used to be. People can't be held without being charged. A suspect has the right to demand his/her lawyer present during a police interrogation. So, where would you change them to make Indians to come out from the cloud of colonial legacies? Why would you reinvent the wheel when things are working for many countries? Would Indians be able to find better formulas for everything? Should India go back to the laws before English and Mughal came? I am at loss.

Maybe, it is an Indian idiosyncratic issue rather colonial issue? We have been adding too much curry to everything to make খিচুড়ী?


On Sunday, October 22, 2017 3:27 PM, "saurav shome shomesaurav@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
I think that for any functional democracy we want egalitarian ethos to practice. I do not want to expand my suspicion to the neo-liberal nexus with democratic polity in this discussion. Rather I would focus only to what I mean about colonial legacy. I am not sure about the Penal Codes of countries other than India. For India, IPC (Indian Penal Code) was written in 1860. Whereas Constitution was drafted in the late 1940s. Of course, a large chunk of constitution was taken from 1935's documents. When we had established democracy in politics in some sense, the other pillars of democracy and government were still having colonial past. We had not dismantled any colonial set up like Police System, Defence, Judiciary, and that include highest scientific institutions like CSIR.
I also believe that there are other serious issues in connection to colonial legacy. E.g. the nationalist movements emerge out as a reaction of British Colonialism has actually internalised ethos of colonial oppressive de-humanising mindset (at least some extent) and operated them at different levels. As a result parliamentary democracy failed to represent true face of common people of India. 
Thanking you.
With best regards,
Saurav

On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Shah Deeldar shahdeeldar@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


You mean indigenous democracy? Based on what? Elaborate please if you care! The word colonial legacy has been used too frequently to denounce the past without putting forward any new revolutionary ideas.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"  -Churchill


On Sunday, October 22, 2017 9:45 AM, "saurav shome shomesaurav@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
The kind of democracy we have in India is due to our colonial legacy and feudal structure of society. I think entire sub-continent is suffering from this problem (may be with different intensity). I think we need a sincere deliberation and sustained discourse on this.
Saurav 










__._,_.___

Posted by: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RED EYED AT HOME, TATTERS IN DIPLOMACY WITH BURMA, NO PRIZE FOR THE WORST PM OF BANGLADESH!!!



Thanks Saurav,


I am glad that finally someone understands British colonial legacy. I've been talking about Indian Penal Code and Thomas B. Macaulay (its author who drafted it in 1836), the arch Imperialist, with no response from these beef-witted 'mukto-mona' members.


By the way, you ought to look into the economic arrangement we had in Bengal prior to the forcible takeover by East India Company in 1770. It was not "feudal" in the European model, and there was a practicing 'egalitarian ethos' including gender equality.


Regards

Farida Majid




From: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of saurav shome shomesaurav@gmail.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 1:23 AM
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RED EYED AT HOME, TATTERS IN DIPLOMACY WITH BURMA, NO PRIZE FOR THE WORST PM OF BANGLADESH!!!
 
 

I think that for any functional democracy we want egalitarian ethos to practice. I do not want to expand my suspicion to the neo-liberal nexus with democratic polity in this discussion. Rather I would focus only to what I mean about colonial legacy. I am not sure about the Penal Codes of countries other than India. For India, IPC (Indian Penal Code) was written in 1860. Whereas Constitution was drafted in the late 1940s. Of course, a large chunk of constitution was taken from 1935's documents. When we had established democracy in politics in some sense, the other pillars of democracy and government were still having colonial past. We had not dismantled any colonial set up like Police System, Defence, Judiciary, and that include highest scientific institutions like CSIR.
I also believe that there are other serious issues in connection to colonial legacy. E.g. the nationalist movements emerge out as a reaction of British Colonialism has actually internalised ethos of colonial oppressive de-humanising mindset (at least some extent) and operated them at different levels. As a result parliamentary democracy failed to represent true face of common people of India. 
Thanking you.
With best regards,
Saurav

On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Shah Deeldar shahdeeldar@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


You mean indigenous democracy? Based on what? Elaborate please if you care! The word colonial legacy has been used too frequently to denounce the past without putting forward any new revolutionary ideas.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"  -Churchill


On Sunday, October 22, 2017 9:45 AM, "saurav shome shomesaurav@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
The kind of democracy we have in India is due to our colonial legacy and feudal structure of society. I think entire sub-continent is suffering from this problem (may be with different intensity). I think we need a sincere deliberation and sustained discourse on this.
Saurav 








__._,_.___

Posted by: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RED EYED AT HOME, TATTERS IN DIPLOMACY WITH BURMA, NO PRIZE FOR THE WORST PM OF BANGLADESH!!!



I think that for any functional democracy we want egalitarian ethos to practice. I do not want to expand my suspicion to the neo-liberal nexus with democratic polity in this discussion. Rather I would focus only to what I mean about colonial legacy. I am not sure about the Penal Codes of countries other than India. For India, IPC (Indian Penal Code) was written in 1860. Whereas Constitution was drafted in the late 1940s. Of course, a large chunk of constitution was taken from 1935's documents. When we had established democracy in politics in some sense, the other pillars of democracy and government were still having colonial past. We had not dismantled any colonial set up like Police System, Defence, Judiciary, and that include highest scientific institutions like CSIR.
I also believe that there are other serious issues in connection to colonial legacy. E.g. the nationalist movements emerge out as a reaction of British Colonialism has actually internalised ethos of colonial oppressive de-humanising mindset (at least some extent) and operated them at different levels. As a result parliamentary democracy failed to represent true face of common people of India. 
Thanking you.
With best regards,
Saurav

On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Shah Deeldar shahdeeldar@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


You mean indigenous democracy? Based on what? Elaborate please if you care! The word colonial legacy has been used too frequently to denounce the past without putting forward any new revolutionary ideas.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"  -Churchill


On Sunday, October 22, 2017 9:45 AM, "saurav shome shomesaurav@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
The kind of democracy we have in India is due to our colonial legacy and feudal structure of society. I think entire sub-continent is suffering from this problem (may be with different intensity). I think we need a sincere deliberation and sustained discourse on this.
Saurav 








__._,_.___

Posted by: saurav shome <shomesaurav@gmail.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RED EYED AT HOME, TATTERS IN DIPLOMACY WITH BURMA, NO PRIZE FOR THE WORST PM OF BANGLADESH!!!




There is no perfect system of government, but democracy, at least, allows people to have some say in the government. That's where democracy in most developing and underdeveloped countries fail, because people are not educated and conscious enough to make use of that right correctly. As a result, party nepotism and corruption become endemic problem in those societies. 

Even under US democracy, we see party nepotism and corruption, but, at least there is an expectation of some punishment and justice under the democratic system.

On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 10:22 AM, DeEldar shahdeeldar@gmail.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Democracy is messy and no country really can boast about having the perfect one. When I see Bangladeshis judging other countries' democratic rules and principles, I get really nervous and furious. Because these dogs can't even spell the word right, let alone practice it in any setting whether it is on the state level or even small community settings. Please practice it home before you preach. Even some of these Bangladeshis have spent long years in a very democratic entity like western world, they have learned nothing except fighting with their fists and daggers. I have seen many such fights in NY and around. Democracy is not a damn Laddoo!

On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 11:21 PM, Khoniker Othithee <khoniker.othithee@yahoo.com> wrote:
India is the largest demcracy, that is because it has largest population among the demcratic countrie. It is for niave to think  big guys are great guys.  UK by no means large democracy , but it is arguably  the greatest example of democracy. It is silly to hound on the size population, especially when when that democracy has  largest number of representatives with criminal backgrounds.

Not too long back, in online version of  times of India had a scathing review on she state democracy in India. It mentioned, more than 25% has heinous crime in their background. It is not a model to envy of, specially when there many much superior model in europe, australia, American continent. Even in asia, there are few better model exist, like Japan  and South Korea.

My knowledge of history  on democracies may not be deep, but it not a subject that needs endless study. If some think they need prolong studies, that might as well give it up;  the bengali maxim, jar hoy , naw mashay, jar hoy na, hoy na nobbo-e bochoray.



--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 10/20/17, Post Card <abahar.canada@gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} RED EYED AT HOME, TATTERS IN DIPLOMACY WITH BURMA, NO PRIZE FOR THE WORST PM OF BANGLADESH!!!
 To: "Rezaul Karim" <rezaulkarim617@gmail.com>
 Cc: "Jalal Uddin Khan" <jukhan@gmail.com>, "BNP Chairperson Office" <bnpcpo@gmail.com>, "Muazzam Kazi" <kazi4986@yahoo.com>, "zainul abedin" <zainul321@yahoo.com>, "NOORIN" <nazir0101@gmail.com>, "Mohammad Aleem" <aleem53@yahoo.com>, "New England Bnp" <bnp.newengland@yahoo.com>, "Hussain Suhrawardy" <shahadathussaini@hotmail.com>, "RANU CHOWDHURY" <ranu51@hotmail.com>, "MohammadGani" <mgani69@gmail.com>, "Zoglul Husain" <zoglul@hotmail.co.uk>, zaidisattar@gmail.com, "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>, "Zillur R. Khan" <zillurrkhan@gmail.com>, "<noa@agni.com>" <noa@agni.com>, "la-discussion@googlegroups.com" <la-discussion@googlegroups.com>, "Barrister MBI Munshi" <mbimunshi@gmail.com>, "Atiqur Rahman Salu" <mfariha123@aol.com>, "Tanvir Nowaz" <tanvirnowaz@yahoo.com>
 Date: Friday, October 20, 2017, 10:11 PM

 We haven't heard anything from our Gani bhai
 about  the typical India and Burma lover highly distinguished professor who was perhaps
 misleading Bangladeshi scholars for such a long time!.

 On Fri, Oct 20, 2017
 at 5:38 PM, Rezaul Karim <rezaulkarim617@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 The professor's love for
 our two neighbors, India & Myanmar is so repugant in
 this context when Bangladesh has fallen victim to
 both.
 DID HE REALLY SAID WHAT HE MEANT TO SAY? - I
 doubt.
  His biggest blunder, iI think, his unwarrented
 showing of love for Indian democracy( biggest!) &
 affection for ASSK,  justfying her role & defending her
 position in the mist of brutal military
 action.Now, when our own lady Hitler has
 expressed her dissatisfaction to both the friendly nations
 on the Rohigya issue, why the professor shyed away from
 it,  is a mystery.

 God Bless our professors.
 Thanks.-
 Rezaul Karim
 On Oct 20, 2017 2:46
 PM, "Jalal Uddin Khan" <jukhan@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 The professor missed a NOT after his love, Indian
 Hindu democracy, out of blind love for Hindustan.  To claim
 the most communal and sectarian Hindu fundamentalist and
 Muslim hating and Muslim killing India as a country of
 "democracy as its political ideology" is a totally
 wrong-headed and laughable assertion by him, like the BAL
 hasina claiming Jan 5 election as being fair. How could a
 man be a Shiva Sena lover and a supporter of democracy at
 the same time? Shiva Sena and Hasina BAL are the
 same--fascist. One cannot be BAL blind and at the same time
 democratic. India is a bastion and champion of communalism
 and caste system. Its ideology is communalism and
 fundamentalism and Hinduism. It supports and ptomotes the
 Hasina BAL fascists and the bloody militant Myanmar
 military. Wake up, Prof! Come to yr senses!
 On Oct 20, 2017 10:00
 PM, "Zillur R. Khan" <zillurrkhan@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 Thanks
 for pointing out the typos! Please rethink the basis of my
 brief comment : Justice for All! Whether you like the
 quality of Indian Democracy, the fact is that India is the
 largest nation having Democracy as its political
 ideology!Best
 wishes,ZRK 

 Zillur R. Khan,
 Ph.D.Rosebush Professor
 Emeritus,University of
 Wisconsin, andAdjunct
 Professor, Rollins College, USAChair, RC-37, IPSA (http://rc37.ipsa.org/)President, Bangladesh
 Foundationwww.bangladesh-foundation.org
 On Oct 14, 2017, at 7:47 AM, Post Card <abahar.canada@gmail.com>
 wrote:


 HALF BACKED IDEAS!
 It is unfortunate to see Prof Zillur Rahman's
 half backed ideas about India as being the "world's
 largest democracy" and Burmese leader Suu Kyi.being
 trained in such a country. Perhaps not known to the
 professor that she became a Buddhist fundamentalist from her
 training in India. The professor even writes the
 name Rohingya wrongly as "Rohyngias" a sign of the
 intellectual poverty of some India -lover Bangladeshi famous
 professors..A protesting Kashmiri
 girl in the occupied Kashmir
 On Fri, Oct 13, 2017
 at 3:24 PM, Zillur R. Khan <zillurrkhan@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 Humanistic
 goals aren't easy to achieve. What counts most for
 stability and peace is the continuous striving by
 leaders for
 JUSTICE. Ideological conflicts and striving to attain and
 maintain POWER(opioids for many leaders) have been
 undermining justice throughout human history. Justice, as
 Socrates put it, is to give everyone his due [as a human
 being].
 Educated
 in India, the largest Democratic Nation of the
 World,Nobel
 Laureate Aung San Suu Chi has been taking strong stand for
 Democracy in Burma/Myanmar for which her mobility was
 severely restricted by the military regime. Now is the time,
 upholding the efforts of her assassinated father General
 Aung San, recognized as the Father of independence of Burma
 from the British Rule, Nobel Peace Laureate must take an
 exemplary stand for Justice for Rohyngias. Unfortunately,
 as long as the Military Rule continues, she is more
 concerned about her own survival than the survival of a
 small religious minority. Trying to change the constitution
 to end military rule could lead to her ultimate sacrifice
 for REHUMANISM. Best
 wishes to you all,Zillur
 Khan 

 Zillur R. Khan,
 Ph.D.Rosebush Professor
 Emeritus,University of
 Wisconsin, andAdjunct
 Professor, Rollins College, USAChair, RC-37, IPSA (http://rc37.ipsa.org/)President, Bangladesh
 Foundationwww.bangladesh-foundation.org
 On Oct 13, 2017, at 3:57 AM, Outlook Team <zoglul@hotmail.co.uk>
 wrote:








 From: Zoglul Husain (zoglul@hotmail.co.uk



 Thank you, Abid Bahar Bhai, for sharing. 







 From: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com
 <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>
 on behalf of Post Card <abahar.canada@gmail.com>

 Sent: 13 October 2017 03:55

 To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com;
 PFC-Friends; Mohammad Aleem; Jalal Khan; Mohamed Nazir; RANU
 CHOWDHURY; Rezaul Karim; New England Bnp; Mohammad Gani;
 zainul abedin; BNP Chairperson Office; Zainal Abedin;
 Hussain Suhrawardy; Zillur R. Khan; Muazzam
  Kazi

 Subject: {PFC-Friends} RED EYED AT HOME, TATTERS IN
 DIPLOMACY WITH BURMA, NO PRIZE FOR THE WORST PM OF
 BANGLADESH!!!
  







  












 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1
 0/12/world/asia/myanmar-diplom acy-ethnic-cleansing.html











 Hands
 Tied by Old Hope, Diplomats in Myanmar Stay Silent

 www.nytimes.com

 As the humanitarian crisis for Rohingya Muslims worsens,
 envoys are reluctant to criticize Aung San Suu Kyi even
 though they seem to have been frozen out.










 <image.png>












 Asia
 Pacific
 |

 News Analysis


 Hands Tied by Old Hope, Diplomats in Myanmar
 Stay Silent

 By

 HANNAH
 BEECHOCT.
 12, 2017






 Rohingya
 refugees outside Cox's Bazar, in Bangladesh, last month.
 More than half a million Rohingya Muslims have fled to
 Bangladesh
  since late August, and hundreds of thousands more still in
 Myanmar may still be trying to cross the border.
 Credit
 Sergey Ponomarev for The New York Times






 YANGON, Myanmar — It is unfolding again:
 Troops have unleashed fire and rape and indiscriminate
 slaughter on a vulnerable minority, driving hundreds of
 thousands of civilians to flee and creating a humanitarian
 emergency that crosses borders.

 A crisis in Myanmar that
 many saw coming has brought a host of uncomfortable
 questions along with it: Why did the world — which
 promised "never again" after Rwanda and Bosnia, then
 Sudan and Syria — seemingly do so little to forestall an
 ethnic cleansing campaign by Myanmar's military?
  And what can be done now to address the urgent humanitarian
 calamity caused when more than half of Myanmar's ethnic
 Rohingya Muslims fled the country over just a few
 weeks?

 Outside Myanmar, criticism of its military
 has mounted. The United Nations secretary general, António
 Guterres, has urged "unfettered access" for
 international agencies and called the Rohingya crisis "the
 world's fastest-developing refugee emergency
  and a humanitarian and human rights
 nightmare."

 President Emmanuel Macron of France has
 called it genocide. And there is talk, although still
 tentative, of the European Union's renewing targeted
 sanctions on people culpable in the violence that has driven
 the Rohingya from their homes in Rakhine,
  a state in western Myanmar.


 But in Yangon, Myanmar's
 commercial capital, where the diplomatic corps is based,
 there is still reluctance to call to task publicly either
 the military or the civilian administration led by Daw Aung
 San Suu Kyi. Some diplomats
  say they are trying to preserve whatever influence they may
 have left, in order to avert an even worse
 catastrophe.








 Related Coverage


 Rohingya
 Recount Atrocities: 'They Threw My Baby Into a
 Fire' OCT. 11, 2017


 In
 Grim Camps, Rohingya Suffer on 'Scale That We Couldn't
 Imagine' SEPT. 29, 2017


 Helping
 the Rohingya SEPT. 29, 2017














 More than half a million Rohingya Muslims
 have fled to Bangladesh since late August, when a Rohingya
 militant attack on Myanmar security posts catalyzed a brutal
 counteroffensive. Hundreds of thousands more remaining in
 Myanmar may still be trying
  to cross the border. Those who cannot flee are trapped and
 hungry in northern Rakhine, according to anecdotal evidence
 collected by international aid agencies, which the
 government has largely prevented from delivering relief
 supplies or even assessing need
  in the region.







 Aung
 San Suu Kyi supporters at an 'Interreligious Gathering of
 Prayers for Peace' organized by her party in Yangon
 on
 Tuesday.Credit Adam
  Dean for The New York Times






 "There are few places on Earth where we are
 denied access to this extent," said Jan Egeland, the
 secretary general of the Norwegian Refugee Council. "We
 have an office in northern Rakhine, we have staff there, we
 have supplies there, we could
  go tomorrow
 with our trucks — but we are being stopped. This is
 illegal, this is intolerable."

 I spoke to half a dozen ambassadors and
 senior aid agency staff members in Yangon about what the
 problem was. All asked to speak off the record.

 There are many reasons for their reticence,
 but a major one is this: Myanmar has been presented as a
 success story, despite a host of economic and ethnic
 problems.

 Elections
 in 2015 elevated Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi, the Nobel Peace
 Prize laureate whose name was once
  a byword for acts of conscience, and seemed to usher in a
 chance for democracy to take hold.

 But whatever authority she has, as the
 nation's state counselor, is dwarfed by that of a military
 that ruled for nearly half a century and continues to
 monopolize power.

 Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi is not the one ordering
 Rohingya villages to be burned down or civilians to be
 massacred. That firepower lies with the Tatmadaw,
 Myanmar's military, led by Senior Gen. Min Aung
 Hlaing.

 In a Facebook post on
 Thursday recounting his meeting with the
 United States ambassador, Scot Marciel, the military chief
 called reports of a large exodus of Rohingya
  to Bangladesh an "exaggeration." He reiterated that
 Rohingya were "not the natives" of Myanmar.







 Monks
 praying in Bengala Monastery in Yangon, this month. Over the
 past year or so, Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi has played to hatred
  of Rohingya Muslims among Myanmar's Buddhist
 majority. Credit Adam
  Dean for The New York Times






 Diplomats say Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi used to
 express sympathy for the Rohingya in private, explaining
 that she could not speak out because of widespread hatred
 for them among Myanmar's Buddhist majority. But over the
 past year or so, she has played
  to that prejudice, referring instead to the Rohingya as
 illegal immigrants from Bangladesh.

 In a televised address on
 Thursday, Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi pushed back
 against international criticism and promised to personally
 oversee efforts to bring peace to Rakhine
  and repatriate those who have fled to
 Bangladesh.

 In the speech, as in an address delivered to
 foreign envoys last month, Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi declined to
 tackle accusations that the military has unleashed arson,
 murder and rape on the Rohingya.

 Despite Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi's
 obfuscations, diplomats in Yangon have tended to avoid
 increasing public pressure. Veteran observers of Myanmar's
 military, which has long faced condemnation for its
 brutality toward civilians and ethnic minorities,
  have warned that an international shaming of a disgraced
 Nobel laureate is just what the generals want.

 "She gets all the criticism, and then the
 Tatmadaw gets to quietly do what it wants and what it has
 done for decades, which is to burn villages and terrorize
 ethnic areas," said David Scott Mathieson, a longtime
 human-rights researcher in Myanmar.

 Foreign envoys here are mindful of the
 complex politics. A nation does not emerge from 50 years of
 military dictatorship without political wounds, they say,
 asserting that pushing Ms. Aung San Suu Kyi, whose famous
 resolve can tend toward obduracy,
  could be counterproductive.

 One senior Western envoy said that with no
 real coordination between military and civilian officials,
 weeks of flying back and forth to talk with them had come to
 nothing. The diplomat called it "by far the most
 frustrating issue I've ever worked
  on."







 Rohingya
 in a camp in Sittwe, Rakhine, this month. The Myanmar
 government has prevented international aid agencies from
  delivering relief supplies or even assessing need in the
 area. Credit Adam
  Dean for The New York Times






 Mr. Egeland, who once served as the United
 Nations' under secretary general for humanitarian affairs,
 has grown impatient.

 "I would like to issue a terse message to
 the diplomats," he said. "I would like to disagree that
 it is a complicated situation. It is very simple: When
 humanitarians are not allowed to help civilians, people
 die."

 For its part, the United Nations in Myanmar
 commissioned an internal report, submitted in April, that
 warned against soft-pedaling on human rights to placate the
 military or the civilian authority.






 "Trade-offs between advocacy and access,"
 the report said, "have in practice deprioritized human
 rights and humanitarian action, which are seen as
 complicating and undermining relations with
 government."

 The report's author, Richard Horsey, noted
 how quickly the honeymoon period after the 2015 elections
 had subsided.

 "We shouldn't be surprised that the
 landing spot for Myanmar's transition may be as one more
 Southeast Asian nation with authoritarian tendencies, rising
 nationalism and ethnic tensions," he said. "But Myanmar
 should aspire to be so much better
  than that."

 Certainly, few countries enjoyed as much
 international good will as Myanmar did, at a time when the
 world was desperate for a positive narrative.







 A
 burned house in Gawdu Zara village, in Rakhine state, last
 month. International aid workers with years of experience in
  Rakhine say that they have never seen the situation so
 grave. Credit Associated
  Press






 "Western donors and the U.N. have not
 always been helpful," said Charles Petrie, a former United
 Nations resident coordinator in Myanmar, noting "the
 refusal for a long time to let go of the fairy-tale view of
 Myanmar with Aung San Suu Kyi coming
  to power and the corresponding refusal to push back on some
 of her dogmatic positions."

 Mr. Petrie drew comparisons with South Sudan,
 where the world was "so taken by the narrative of a new
 country emerging from northern enslavement that the signs of
 the emerging violence were ignored."


 International aid workers with years of
 experience in Rakhine say they have never seen the situation
 so grave.





 Brad Hazlett of Partners Relief and
 Development, a Christian charity that has provided food aid
 to the Rohingya, said he had been prevented from visiting
 internment camps this month in the state capital, Sittwe,
 that he had visited dozens of
  times before.

 "I think their strategy is to starve them
 out," he said.

 Abul Hashim, a Rohingya from the northern
 Rakhine village of Anauk Pyin, described by cellphone how a
 team of ambassadors and United Nations officials had gone to
 the community on Oct. 2 as part of a stage-managed
 government trip. The crowds
  of officials who had helicoptered in promised food aid to
 the village.

 But for nearly 10 days, Mr. Hashim said, his
 community has received nothing. For three months, none of
 the Rohingya have been allowed to step outside the village,
 he said. They have had no access to doctors or schools. All
 he, his wife, their
  three daughters and three sons had eaten that day was less
 than a pound of rice and some water.

 "Our sorrows," he said, "know no
 bounds."


 AKM Moinuddin contributed reporting from
 Dhaka, Bangladesh.


 Follow Hannah Beech on Twitter:
 @hkbeech.











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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RED EYED AT HOME, TATTERS IN DIPLOMACY WITH BURMA, NO PRIZE FOR THE WORST PM OF BANGLADESH!!!



You mean indigenous democracy? Based on what? Elaborate please if you care! The word colonial legacy has been used too frequently to denounce the past without putting forward any new revolutionary ideas.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"  -Churchill


On Sunday, October 22, 2017 9:45 AM, "saurav shome shomesaurav@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
The kind of democracy we have in India is due to our colonial legacy and feudal structure of society. I think entire sub-continent is suffering from this problem (may be with different intensity). I think we need a sincere deliberation and sustained discourse on this.
Saurav 




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Re: [mukto-mona] Hinduism is a monotheistic religion




I agree, God is a creation of mind, and mind can use God to create words and actions as well.

On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Dev Saha devsaha5@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

We feel MIND because it has material basis. With no neuronal connection, there is no mind and there no idea. A mind can create concrete ideas that can be translated/tranformed into words or activities. The same can't be expected from a God which itself a product of mind.





On Saturday, October 21, 2017, 10:55:53 AM EDT, Dristy Pat dristypat5@gmail.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

 
The concept of Gods and Goddesses are purely psychological; so, all powers come from individuals believing in them. Since these are not physical entities, there is no point looking for them. For example, we all feel the presence of 'mind," but can we see it? We cant.

If you do not subscribe to these concepts, none of these make any sense to you.

On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Dev Saha devsaha5@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

God concept itself has originated from a pure ignorance rather than any true enlightenment. So, believing one omnipotent God or smaller Gods is not that different because Him or Others are equally powerless when it comes to flash Their clout or power. They are all made and built in our dreams.



On Friday, October 20, 2017, 6:59:32 PM EDT, Dristy Pat dristypat5@gmail.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 


Polytheism is an ignorance or a misunderstanding of the concept of God. Hinduism has one God as well, which is called Bhagwban or Ishwar. Bhagwban uses gods and goddesses to carry out different functions. For example, Goddess Saraswati  is for education, Goddess Lakshmi for wealth, etc. You can think of it as different  Ministers working under the Prime Minister.

2017-10-19 18:58 GMT-04:00 Dev Saha devsaha5@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>:
 
[Attachment(s) from Dev Saha devsaha5@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] included below]

Who cares whether Hinduism is monotheistic or polytheistic? The important point is, nobody loses his/her head for believing one or multiple Gods when people have not figured out yet where a God(s) lives and when he/she takes his/her morning walks. Since Hinduism is not an organized religion, there is no hard and fast rule for Hindus to follow a strict book, let alone other God's men. If this lady believes in one formless God like many Hindus and Brahmos do (or not believe), why that should raise any controversy? Why would you even go for a poll? To prove what? Read Rama Krishna and Viveka-Nanda!    





On Thursday, October 19, 2017, 6:13:40 PM EDT, 'Jamal G. Khan' M.JamalGhaus@gmail.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

Hinduism in a nutshell A Must Watch:



https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=sY6EbisJBHY&feature=youtu.be


How many of today's Hindus in South Asia (especially in India & Bangladesh) 

believe in the version of  "Hinduism" that this girl has ??    

How about শুদ্ধি অভিযান & Ghar Wapsi(Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), to facilitate conversion of non-Hindus to Hinduism.

that is currently being propagated by the political Hindutva proponents?


ব্রাহ্মরা কি হিন্দু, জানাতে নির্দেশ কেন্দ্রকে :http://www. anandabazar.com/national/ supreme-court-asks-centre- whether-brahmism-is-separate- religion-or-not-1.286402

www.anandabazar.com › দেশ
রবীন্দ্রনাথ ঠাকুর কিংবা সত্যজিৎ রায় কি ধর্মীয় সংখ্যালঘু— বিচার করার ভার পড়েছে কেন্দ্রীয় সরকারের উপরে। ব্রাহ্ম মতাবলম্বীরা একটি ধর্মীয় সম্প্রদায় নাকি একটি পৃথক ও স্বতন্ত্র ধর্ম, সুপ্রিম কোর্টের সাংবিধানিক বেঞ্চে আজ এই নিয়ে জোর সওয়াল চলে।

ব্রাহ্ম ধর্ম নিয়ে কিছু কথা - সনাতন ভাবনা ও সংস্কৃতি

ব্রাহ্মরা, কোলকাতার ইংরেজি শিক্ষায় শিক্ষিত বাবু সমাজ নিজেদের সাধারণ অজ্ঞ পুরোহিত শাসিত হিন্দুরীতিনীতি থেকে স্বতন্ত্র করতে বেদান্তের ব্রহ্মবাদ নিয়েই নিজেদের আলাদা করলেন। এখানে একটু পার্থক্য আছে ... রবীন্দ্রনাথের মত মহাপ্রতিভা যেখানে গান লিখছেন, নরেন্দ্রনাথ (বিবেকানন্দ) যেখানে গাইছেন- ভাবতে পারেন কিহচ্ছিল সে পরিবেশে?

রবীন্দ্রনাথ ঠাকুরের ধর্ম  (একেশ্বরবাদী ধর্ম : জো ড়াসাঁকোর ঠাকুর পরিবার ছিল ব্রাহ্ম আদিধর্ম  মতবাদের প্রবক্তা !

Indo-Aryan migration theory - Wikipedia

Jump to Migration into northern India - Proponents of Indo-Aryan origin outside of India generally consider migrations into South Asia and Anatolia (ancient Mitanni) from Central Asia to have started around 1500 BCE, as a slow diffusion during the Late Harappan period, which led to a language shift in northern India.

2017-10-17 22:42 GMT-04:00 Sitangshu Guha <guhasb@gmail.com>:
You should watch this, she talks nice: https://youtu.be/ sY6EbisJBHY
-- 
Sitanggshu Guha







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Posted by: Dristy Pat <dristypat5@gmail.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

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****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





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