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Thursday, December 1, 2011

Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?



Mr. Rahman
 
I quoted a book which I think is pretty authentic. Also I said that I am not sure if the historical account given therein is biased or not. Historical accounts can be wrong and incomplete. Researches are still going on. Accounts can be wrong because of the bias of the author. So we have to base our discussions and analyses on the accounts found in the history books. But we have to keep our mind open and be prepared to accept more authentic information based on new researches. Here I am talking about reason.
 
There is another way to look at historical events and figures. That is based on faith rather than on reason. 
I am not sure what position you are taking. If you have more authentic history books on history of Arabs, please share those with us.    
 
Thanks.

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Mr. qar is worse than a kat-mullah, as understood by what he writes,e.g.,"The primary reason to raid caravan was to stop Meccan leaders from looting properties left by Muslim Muhajer( People who left their houses, businesses and firm etc) who went to Medina with the last messenger of Allah (PBUH)."


On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:04 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
For example, the urge to achieve economic independence at a bad time obligated the prophet and his followers to raid Meccan caravans.

>>>>>>>>>>> Member Subimal,

Maybe you missed some of our discussion on this issue. The primary reason to raid caravan was to stop Meccan leaders from looting properties left by Muslim Muhajer( People who left their houses, businesses and firm etc) who went to Medina with the last messenger of Allah (PBUH).


The primary drivers of the last prophet (PBUH) were to establish peace, fairness and justice for his people (Both Muslims and non-Muslims). Money was never a driver for the last messenger of Allah (PBUH).

If you read about his life and see how he operated (Specifically when Meccan clan leaders made him an offer to be leader of Mecca and a lot of moeny for leaving his mission in exchange!) you will see that, if we was after money , he could have gotten plenty of it for himself. But he always distributed "His share" of wealth among poor and needy of his community. So these out of context perception can mislead honest seekers of truth.

I have offered multiple credible commentaries (Seerah) of the noble prophet (PBUH) by leading scholars from all parts of the world. You can pick any good book to have a basic understanding of his ideals.

Unlike leaders of 21 st century prophet of Allah (PBUH) was not driven by his ego. He was driven by his desire to share message of Allah with people and establish peace, fairness and justice for all. Which motivated him to be flexible ( Treaty of hudaibiyah is an example) to make peace multiple times during his lifetime.

Even his enemies were fan of his personality!! ( A loving, forgiving and compassionate person).

Shalom!!
-----Original Message----- From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 1, 2011 10:09 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
I know many churches are rich. Even some temples in India are also rich. But I don't think finance was the motivating factor behind organizating and launching the new religion by the prophet of Islam. But obviously money was a necessity without which advancement of the new religion would have been very difficult if not impossible. For example, the urge to achieve economic independence at a bad time obligated the prophet and his followers to raid Meccan caravans. Even one of the most important reasons for North-ward campaigns was economic given the fact that economic intensification was impossible in Arabia. This means that the prophet was not only flexible, dynamic, and pragmatic as I have mentioned earlier, he was also a great visionary. 
My original point was that if the person who brought Islam to the world could be so flexible in adapting his policies to the prevailing circumstances, why can't all muslims go beyond the literary meanings of the teachings in the holy books?       

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
The prophet demanded allegiance from the emperors of Abissynia, Byzantium and Persia.  Only the first one agreed, but when sixty two and half percent of his income(twenty percent each for Allah, Rasul and his wives; two and half percent as Zakat for the poor)  was demanded as the religious tax, he also refused to be a Muslim.  I hope, the financial reason behind the religious organizations would be clear by reading such history.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:50 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Thanks. That's what I learned from one of my atheist muslim friends (please re-read my e-mail blow.) My friend also told me that a harsh greeting has been prescribed for the non-muslims (it may need verification.) If my friend was right, then you must agree that the teaching is discriminatory. Therefore, reinterpretation is a must in a plularistic society.
From one of Prof. Kamal Das's posts it appears that currently re-written or revised versions of the Koran are availble in the market. I hope these are the works of the learned Ulema. To me it looks like a well-thought endevor. This will minimize the risk of taking every thing in a religious book too literally. And this will obviously broaden the unity in a multi-religious society. I am aware that this will not be an easy task. It will face challenges from those who deem a religious scripture to be God-sent and hence unchangeable. That's why I have emphasized that this should be done with a general consensus of the scholars. More importantly, religion being a sensive issue and largely being a matter of faith and prone to be abused by vested interest groups, one prerequisite must be to get people ready for the change. I don't think the Bible re-written by Jefferson has been accepted at all.       
You will agree that the prophet himself was a flexible, dynamic, and pragmatic man. The concept of 'Ummah' initailly included some Jweish tribes also. Even after the complete annihation of a Jweish tribe for their suspicious role in a battle (If I remember correctly---the battle of Uhud), the prophet did not change the scope of the concept "ummah" too much. He encouraged his people to travel even to distant China for acquiring knowledge. Despite resistance from his advisors, he wrote diplomatic letters to the rulers of the neighboring states to embrace Islam.        

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Member Subimal,

Enjoyed your post.

Just wanted share a small correction ( Hope you don't mind).

Religiously only a muslim can say Asalalmalaikum to another muslim.

>>>>>>>>> This is a misconception of many Muslims. Among Muslims who do not know about their own religion. Muslims are allowed to wish "Peace" (Meaning of salaam) to anyone. As noted all messengers of God (PBUT) before Muhammad (PBUH) also used the same greetings. So Salaam and Shalom are exactly same. One in Arabic and another in Hebrew. Most Muslims have strange misconceptions about our own faith and some of my fellow Muslims misinterpret our faith as well. I use "Unusual" greetings to destroy those misconceptions. As long we meet peaceful and fair minded people, we can be friends with them with open arms. When a religious Hindu says "Shanti" to me, it is EXACTLY the SAME greetings of Islam. There are no differences in them. As per Islam, it will be the greeting for people of heaven ( Those who attain paradise) as well. It is sad, we spend so much time in learning about our differences that, we (At least most people!) overlook the great similarities we have among us. You may not know that, the noble Qur'an actually orders Muslims to take this approach (Of seeking common grounds) with non-Muslims but most Muslims do not follow that (Source: The noble Qur'an 3:64) May you have a nice day! Shalom!  
-----Original Message----- From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Nov 26, 2011 5:49 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
With reference to Jewish Shalom and Islamic Salaam let me tell you some thing from my own experience. One ex-presiedent (a muslim) of a local cultural organization used to welcome the muslim-majority audience of a cultural show by using the word Namashkar. An ex-president (a Hindu) did not mind greeting a muslim using the word Asalamalaikum. Religiously only a muslim can say Asalalmalaikum to another muslim. A harsh one has been approved by Islam for a non-muslim (that's what an atheiest muslim friend told me.) To me it should not hurt getting more open minded and secularize many religious words as long as they are not specifically tied to religious symbols or concepts.    
Let me tell you about another ex-president (a muslim) of the of the same organiztion. I have seen him helping free of cost in decorating the pooja-mandap and the stage for cultural show for another organization. On the day of the pooja I have seen him attending the hindu religious (definitely not the religious part of it) festival wearing fashionable dhoti-panjabi and his wife wearing saree and even vermillion on the forehead as a cosmetic item. All these muslims I have just mentioned are sincere believers in Islam. They don't think that their belief has been shaken a bit by acting the ways mentioned above. They know how to go beyond the literal meanings of a religious scripture. 
Many muslim names like Uma, Partha, Anindya Avatar, Debolina Dhoritree, etc. have roots in hindu mythologies. Drawing rooms of many muslims have in them sculptures of Buddha, Saraswati (controversial Farhad Mazhar has it), and Kali.
We fail to see these revolutionary changes in a religious mind and the culture of a religious community. Social progress can be accelerated by capitalizing on these revolutionary changes and can be easily halted by alienating those who believe in progress and openness.
  

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
How could you read 'brain' instead of 'inquisitiveness'?  I had enough Jewish friends to know that Shalom meant peace, when was it interrupted here? Reading more about Islam would not increase my respect for it.  Religion, by nature, is tribal.  Islam being the faith of seventeen percent population of earth, can by no means be called universal except by those who believe in it wholeheartedly.  Those, who believe that Allah was more concerned about a few thousand bedouins than a billion strong Muslims today, do not have any sense of judgement. In course of time, all religions will be 'caged', not just Islam, about whose extinction, the prophet himself is said to have predicted.
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 12:24 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 

A final advice, stop using the Jewish 'Shalom' at the end.  Your Muslim brothers could call you an apostate.

>>>>>>>>>>> Despite the myth about my Muslim brothers, no one cared that I use Shalom at the end. It means "Peace" and those who understand the meaning should have NO problem with it. I welcome you to learn and know more about Islam and "Muslim brothers". I think one guy made fun of it and I laughed along.


Islam is a universal religion and anyone ( Muslims or non-Muslims) who want to put it in a cage (Or certain distorted narrative) would be doing something that is "UNFAIR"!!

Basically the word "Shalom" and "Salaam" are the same. I do not consider any human being my "Permanent enemies". So IF any Muslim "Brother" objects to it, I'll have a chat with him.

Breaking false perceptions is a hobby of mine. I enjoy and Islam supports me in bringing people closer to "The Truth". ;-)

Your pint size inquisitiveness is buried deep in religious faith.  If you had read religious literature,e.g., Quran and Hadith, even moderately, your faith would have developed holes.
>>>>>>> "Pint size brain"??? :-)


Guess you cannot argue with the points we discuss, so the name calling. So far pint size brain is working fine to answers concerns you posed. So I'll gave the rest of the brain a little rest. When I meet someone with proper knowledge and courtesy, I'll summon the rest of the brain Inshallah!! :-)
you do not have the aptitude of even a freshman.
>>>>>>>> OK!!


I have read religious literature and kept questioning it UNTIL I found answers for them. So far I am happy, secured and satisfied with answers I have. If a days comes when I have "Holes" in my faith, I'll let you know.

However do understand this process can go both ways. I came to know about people who had "Huge HOLES" in their faith and became an atheist. However after examining their "Faith-Status" (Lack of faith)  they returned to their Maker.

You have been very entertaining. Thank you!!

Shalom!




-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2011 5:42 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Mr. Q. Rahman Your pint size inquisitiveness is buried deep in religious faith.  If you had read religious literature,e.g., Quran and Hadith, even moderately, your faith would have developed holes.    Say about the verse on Abu Lahab, could such hatred be divine?  If it were so, how the person and the prophet could be related by marital alliance? The problem with you is that graduate course of comparative religion are not meat for a freshman, and you do not have the aptitude of even a freshman.  Please read the holy Quran, along with Bukhari, Tirmizi, Muslim and other hadith.  Also read Tabari, and occasionally read the ex-Muslim critiques.  Zaki Ameeni, Abul Kashem etc. have encyclopedic knowledge on Islam.  The attachment I gave earlier entitled "Prophet of Doom" may also be helpful.  Develop enough intelligence to differentiate between a good and a bad post. A final advice, stop using the Jewish 'Shalom' at the end.  Your Muslim brothers could call you an apostate.
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 11:29 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
The first biography of the prophet was written over a hundred years after his death by Ibn Ishaque.  I hope you know his name. There is, however, no reason to believe the authenticity of the biography or that of the person.


>>>>>>>>> Help me understand what you are saying. Do you agree with "One scholar" that, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not exist? :-)
I have spent more time than many studying religious literature, and am confident that I have more information than these recent net browsers.  The believers in the holiness of their religion may read the attachment.  
>>>>>>>>>> I am glad to hear that you know a lot about religion. I hope your future posts will reflect your deep knowledge of this subject. I need your help to understand something. Your attachment was the "Qur'an" and we were discussing prophet Muhammad (PBUH). So prophet's life should be part of the hadith texts.
Do let me know HOW do I learn about prophet's life from text of the Qur'an?
Appreciate your kind attention. Shalom!!  
-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:12 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society? [1 Attachment]
 
[Attachment(s) from Kamal Das included below]
The first biography of the prophet was written over a hundred years after his death by Ibn Ishaque.  I hope you know his name. There is, however, no reason to believe the authenticity of the biography or that of the person. I for one don't need fifteen minutes of fame, neither do the persons I refer to as scholars.  I have spent more time than many studying religious literature, and am confident that I have more information than these recent net browsers.  The believers in the holiness of their religion may read the attachment.  
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 3:59 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Member M. Rahman, Member Das was talking about my comments not yours. However I did not call him dumb but I called the question "Dumb". If Jesus, Moses or Muhammad (PBUT) ever existed are asked by people who want to stir up the pot a little. Going after 15 minutes of fame. People who quote these "Media attention hungry" people often do not know enough of these topics but want to "Shake up" discussions or situations. As I said, I welcome honest questions and critics on any topic (Including religion). However if someone ask if Muhammad bin Abdullah (PBUH) ever existed, it is only FAIR to call that QUESTION dumb. I have not called any member by any names. I think this part was misunderstood. Neither I am interested to relegate our discussions/debate to that level.  Throwing down absurd comments about the holy prophet's janaja or circumcision ( Who the heck going to verify that???) is a cheap way to get someone agitated. BUT in response all I asked to learn more about "Sources" of such information. It is interesting to note that, the whole Muslim world never worried about such issues but some of our atheist friends are!! Which says a lot about the level of desperation. I still welcome all comments or questions about topics I discuss. ( Recently posted one about Jesus son of Mary and Christianity). I am not here to preach to people but ONLY to replace wrong/false information with correct information. ==================================================== Being dumb yourself, you see others as dumb. Member Das, Hope you understand the I did NOT call you dumb. Rather my comment was directed at the quality of the comment. I do stand by that. I do not consider myself as scholar but even with my limited knowledge I can EASILY prove to anyone that, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did exist. The German scholar is also welcome. Despite our differences of opinions, I enjoy your passion in our discussion. Shalom!!;-)


-----Original Message----- From: MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com> To: Mukto-mona Mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 5:49 am Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Mr Kamal Das,

I did not call you dumb. But if you are going to read and quote sources who are critics of Islam as you seem to be, then what can be done? You will continue to bring out absurd claims like the "Prophet was not circumcised" in this Forum with the sole intention of maligning this great man !! Detractors and faultfinders of Islam and its Messenger with continue to come up with atrocious claims in the garb of intellect.

Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: kamalctgu@gmail.com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 07:45:47 &# 43;0600 Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?  
Mr. Rahman Being dumb yourself, you see others as dumb.  I did not present the question you deem dumb, it is the theory of Professor Sven Kalisch.  He teaches Islamic history and culture at a German University.  You can debate with him if you like.  Apparently, you don't know that after the prophet was missing for days the news spread of his death.  Even Hajrat Umar did not believe it and came with an unscathed sword to the abode of Ayesha where he met Abu Bakr who cooled him down.  Then Abu Bakr and Umar belonged to one group who coerced others into submission to the caliphate of Abu Bakr.  The last sermon had nothing to do with his death. By the way do you know that the prophet was not even circumcised.  Thus he broke the covenant of Abraham with God.
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:30 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Member Das,

No mainstream Muslim scholar agrees with YOUR narratives on Islam or our holy prophet (PBUH). Earlier you presented a dumb question by asking IF the last messenger of God (PBUH) ever existed? I have read many DIFFERENT commentaries and spoken to many scholars and NEVER heard such absurd claims.

Either way, the prophet (PBUH) did die a natural death and last time I checked English speaking world does not label that as "Dubious"!! NO way!!

Before the death of the noble prophet (PBUH) he gave his famous sermon during the last hajj, which was so complete and powerful that, it indicated the end of his work on earth. He started by saying...

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY....................................

[ Source: Last hajj sermon]


http://soundvision.com/info/hajj/lastsermon.asp

I cannot stop writing on religious issues as long people like yourself come up with ridiculous and false information about Islam. Someone needs to supply correct information about it. That is all I am doing. Earlier, I have supplied books about the noble prophet by world famous scholars from all corners of the globe and NONE of them talks about the "FICTIONAL" topic YOU brought up here ( About janaja). If this was one time mistake, I would have accept it as such. However you keep coming up with WRONG information about Islam!! Logically it cannot be an accident. It is deliberate and it says a lot about you!! Mainstream narrative of Islam and the last prophet (PBUH) is well known. The last prophet (PBUH) was probably the most documented human being on the face of the earth. His speeches, practices, ideals, values were preserved by his followers as per his direction. http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sunnah/ I am unable to see what was so dubious about his death? People were shocked, sad and confused. When a beloved leader dies, it is the natural response from people. I have given names of books and scholars in an earlier post. If Islam and prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is always in your mind, I invite you to read about him. It would be helpful if you know about the topic you want to critic. ;-) Shalom!!
-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:27 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
If you need the sources on the death of the prophet, you should stop writing on religious issues.  Ask any maulana and find out or read the Cambridge History of Islam, or 'Islam and the West' by Norman Daniel.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:44 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Even the prophet died under dubious conditions and did not get janaja.


>>>>> SOURCES PLEASE???

-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:31 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
If Mr. Mustafizur Rahman does not see that the dominant contemporary religions are based on the geocentric model of the universe, and sees the ancient and medieval periods were not bad periods, no debate is possible.  Nobody can single a period that was good.  As he is a believer in Islam, may I point out that out of the four 'rightly guided' Caliphs, the first one was poisoned to death while the rest were killed. While Omar was bleeding to death, he requested the majlis members not to make his son the Caliph under any condition.  Usman was killed by a group of assassins in the mosque while reading the 'holy' Koran, and Ali was speared to death.  The killers of Usman asked Ali to take over the Caliphate, his dead body was left without a janaja for days.  Even the prophet died under dubious conditions and did not get janaja.  The Shias insist that he was killed by two of his wives, daughters of th e first two Caliphs.  I am really impressed by the depth of ignorance of these mullahs who are using this forum to spread the 'values' of Islam.
2011/11/14 MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
 
Equal opportunity critic to all religions? Why? Why criticize all religions? Medieval period was not a bad period. In English literature this word is at times used in a negative sense. Human progress went through - as the West has categorized it - stages like iron period, bronze period, medieval period etc. Can you single out one period that was bad? If you disbelieve in the very existence of God, that is a different matter. But what will you do with the billions of people who do believe in the existence of a Creator and seek His assistance?

Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: qrahman@netscape.net Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:36:52 -0500
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?  
You have been sharing orientalist myths about Islam. Modern day scholars do not buy these any more. Such orientalists also spread lies against Hindus as well. Which prompted Swami Vivekananda to visit USA over hundred years ago. He went there to answer to those myths and explain his faith to the west.

Over and over I have asked you to share SOURCES of your info but only got unclear answers. Please clarify your positions or take this opportunity to learn something new.

Peace.


-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Nov 13, 2011 8:39 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
I do not spread venom against Islam.  I am an 'equal opportunity' critic to all religions, and every medieval tendency to invoke God as an answer to all problems.   I refer to historical facts when some 'religious' men use this forum to spread Islam.
2011/11/12 MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
 
Kamal Das, Jiten Roy etc,

Will you STOP taking advantage of this Forum and refrain from spreading your venom against Islam?

Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: kamalctgu@gmail.com Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:07:31 +0600
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?  
The core message was not convincing enough even to Abu Talib, the mentor and the protector of the prophet.  The message is to obtain 72 houries and 28 gillmans in the afterlife with an everlasting erection.  Even Ibn Sina wondered, how the prophet, being the intelligent man that he was, spread such rubbish.  Then he came up with his own intelligent solution!  Consider the intelligence of the average people of medieval times, and you have the answer. About the animal sacrifice, it is the practice in many cultures.  The poor animal dies to serve the religion.  In the primitive times, the first  child was to be sacrificed as an expiation to the cardinal sin from which every child is born.  Abraham himself was a butcher in the temple of Melech.  As he was not sure of his fatherhood of his children, given his age and inability to sire any during his life, he exiled Ismael and Hagar to Mecca, and took Isaac to sacrifice as burnt offering to Moloch.  But he changed his mind later and told the Canaanites that God intervened in the last moment.  Abraham was used to telling lies.  Earlier he passed Sarah as his sister to gain material advantages.  Animal sacrifice has been a common practice across the world. There was no cheaper way to feed people in feasts.  Cow sacrifice by Indian Muslims are intended only to anoy the local Hindus.  Such practice is not the Arabian norm.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 4:48 PM, sentu tikadar <sentu92003@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
You are right these were acts of half educated idiots who do not understand the core message of Islam.
 
What is the core message ?

 What is the core message of Islam?
 
Tolerance to other Faiths? 
 
Deny others' Faiths and indirectly condemn others' Faiths five times a day? And  brain washing five times per day (like advertisement) later the uncivilised indisciplined Beduin forget  Mohammad ?  So much endeavour to be remembered by ppeople just like a politician sex maniac.
 
What is the teaching? Killing people who would not accept his Faith and used the women of the defeated people. Told something good in Mecca and the same thing told in a reversed way in Medina.  He had written( actually by other) a Book copied from other Book (Bible) because he knew he could not write a completely new  Book out of nothing.So he had taken the easiest and ready- made way. Just Copy and relate him with taht Book's men. So intelligent he was. 
 
Just see the Qurbani in Idd? How people can cut throat the cow which he garlanded with flowers? Giving flowers garland means showing respect to it? After showing respect and / or love it is cut. Desert culture has ruined us. It had divided us. It had killed us. It had made us animals from human. That's why Saudi never allows other to follow their religions in open? In Kashmir, In Pakistan, in Bangladesh , even in India (Deganga of West Bengal) temples' deities demolition is a noble job.
 
They don't feel any pity to that cow? In Pakistan some children stay night with the cow or goat putting flower garlands around its neck. In the morning that animal is cut throat? Height of cruelty !!!  This is the culture mid east had given to us. We borrowed the hard religion from desert while we were not the desert people. 
Is this the teaching of real Allah? Giving pain to a living being Allah feels happy? Don't believe that Allah who is biased. Allah is not a democratic fellow? So the believers of that Allah can not be democratic. That's why most of the Allah believers democratic country are failed country. Who will accept Allah he must be ruled with iron hand otherwise he will loose faiths. So many trics Mahammad had understood and apllied. A real dictator of 1400 years ago. 











     
 
 
--- On Thu, 11/10/11, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 5:47 AM
 
Killing of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are right these were acts of half educated idiots who do not understand the core message of Islam. However atheist people have done more murdering of innocents than any religious people. Stalin, Mao (Of china) etc done their part in killing anyone who had a different point of view.
-----Original Message----- From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 10, 2011 6:37 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Killing of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?
From: S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 2:16 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Respected all,
Atheists and secularists (who believe in naturalism and rationalism only and who deny role of religion in public life) are more menace to humanity, morality, civilization as history shows. Most of the wars including first and second great wars were waged by them.
Most of the people of religions are good people. Many of them are misguided by secular political leaders or some ignorant and aggressive religious bigots.
Religious people of all religions should fight these exploiters and stand for humanity, morality and social welfare.
 
Shah Abdul Hannan
  From: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jiten Roy Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:42 AM To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
 
@Nihar Singh:   The true religious people - who are they? Whether they bother anybody or not - is not the issue. The issue is how much is their contribution towards the advancement of the modern society? Are people, who take part in the communal riots or blowup innocent people in the name of religion, any less religious? You may think so - but they don't.   @Kamal Das: The New Testaments does not contain many of the violent verses of the Old Testament means these are not absolute truth. This is the point I am trying to make.   Thanks.     From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?   Truely religious people dont disturb anyone. On the other hand atheists try to make everyone atheists. That is true menace. Look at darwin he made everyone think that they eveolved from apes. Many jokers believe this to be true. --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> Subject: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society? To: "Mukto-mona" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 7:12 PM Are some religious people menaces in the society?   I have been asking this question lately to myself. I tried to find the roles and contributions (I mean, real contributions) of religious people in the society that brought us here from the beginning of time. What I envisioned is that - religion played a very insignificant role towards our social, moral, and scientific developments in this world. Most of these developments are made by religiously indifferent people. The religious people mostly deal with and talk about things that are out of this world. As a result, many of these religious people are misfits and menaces in the society.   Many argue that religion builds our moral character, and we learn good and bad from religion, etc. etc. I, on the other hand, think – good and bad we learn from our ancestors, and from our own experiences; religion has nothing to do with it. You might ask where our ancestors learned them from, in the first place. They learned good and bad from their ancestors' experiences, so on, and so forth. Most Chinese do not have any religion. When I asked a Chinese man - how most people there learn about good and bad without religion, he told me - they learn them from their elders' wisdoms. That's right; our ancestors transferred their knowledge and wisdom to us. Therefore, I truly believe – this world would have been a much better place without religion. Religions have divided us into many sectarian hateful clans, which are constantly fighting with one another.   Many of us believe that religious doctrines and dogmas are heavenly absolute entities. They forget that - many of those doctrines, dogmas, and interpretations have already been modified from the original preaching during emancipation. For example, Old Testament has been replaced by the New Testament, many Quranic interpretations have been changed, and many Vedic/Puranic practices and interpretations have been changed, etc., etc. That means - religious teachings and practices are subject to change with the time, which means they are not so heavenly endowments as we believe them to be. This is a critical point to remember. Those who think otherwise are the menaces in the society.   Jiten Roy


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[mukto-mona] Pakistan US relation is at Worst Point



Pakistan US Relation is at Worst Point

Pakistan, enraged by a Nato cross-border attack that killed 24 soldiers, could end support for the US-led war on militancy if its sovereignty is violated again, the foreign minister said, warning "enough is enough."The South Asian nation has already shown its anger over the weekend strike by pulling out of an international conference in Germany next week on Afghanistan, depriving the talks of a central player in efforts to bring peace to its neighbor."Enough is enough. The government will not tolerate any incident of spilling even a single drop of any civilian or soldier's blood," The News newspaper yesterday quoted Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar as telling a Senate committee on foreign affairs. "Pakistan's role in the war on terror must not be overlooked," Khar said, suggesting Pakistan could end its support for the US war on militancy. Despite opposition at home, Islamabad backed Washington after the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.The US Embassy released a video statement on YouTube by Ambassador Cameron Munter in which he expressed regret for the attack. He said the United States took the attack "very seriously" and pledged "a full, in-depth investigation.""Pakistan and the US have stood together for over 60 years," he said. "We have weathered previous crises together. I'm certain we will weather this one too, and emerge, together, as stronger partners."

But events seemed to be working against lowering tensions. Two Pakistani men were killed in Afghanistan early yesterday and Pakistani border guards said Nato may have been responsible.Nato helicopters and fighter jets attacked two military border posts in northwest Pakistan on Saturday in the worst incident of its kind since 2001.The precise sequence of events surrounding the incident remained in dispute. While Islamabad says there was no provocation to justify firing on two Pakistani outposts, Afghan and Western officials have reportedly accused Pakistani forces of firing first.The top US military officer denied allegations by a senior Pakistani army official that the Nato attack was a deliberate act of aggression.General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US military's Joint Chiefs of Staff, told Reuters in an interview: "The one thing I will say publicly and categorically is that this was not a deliberate attack.”Protests have taken place in several cities every day since the Nato strike along the poorly-defined border, where militants often plan and stage attacks.Pakistan military sources said Islamabad had cancelled a visit by a 15-member delegation, led by the Director General of the Joint Staff, Lieutenant-General Mohammad Asif, to the United States that was to have taken place this week.A nation wide strike has been observed on Friday against the US attack.

We feel that US did wrong coming to Afganistan.There was no need for that.They extended their stay too long .They could not negotiate a peace.This created problem for US, Afganistan and neighboring Pakistan.We feel that US should stop all attacks on Pakistan and also leave Afganistan.

 



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[ALOCHONA] BNP-Jamaat Rule: Names of the accused

BNP-Jamaat Rule: Names of the accused

The following 25 ministers and lawmakers of the last BNP-Jamaat
alliance government have been found involved in the 2001 post-polls
violence:

Ministers
1 Ruhul Quddus Talukder Dulu
2 Abdus Salam Pintu
3 Motiur Rahman Nizami
4 Altaf Hossain Choudhury
5 Tariqul Islam
6 Hafizuddin Ahmed

Lawmakers
1 Wadud Bhuiyan of Khagrachhari
2 Nadim Mostafa of Rajshahi
3 Salauddin Quader Chowdhury of Chittagong
4. Abu Taher of Comilla
5. Abdus Sobhan of Pabna
6. Joynal Abedin alias VP Joynal of Feni
7. HM Selim of Bagerhat
8. Shahidul Islam of Jhenidah
9. Abdus Salam Pintu of Dhaka
10. Ilias Ali of Sylhet
11. Delwar Hossain Sayedee of Pirojpur
12. Elen Bhutto of Jhalakathi
13. Hafiz Ibrahim of Bhola
14. Salauddin Ahmed of Demra in Dhaka
15. Alamgir Haider of Chandpur
16. Salek Chowdhury of Naogaon
17. Zahir Uddin Swapan of Barisal
18. Shakhawat Hossain of Jessore and
19. Ekramul Kabir of Natore

http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=212571


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[ALOCHONA] Transit and transshipment-strategic considerations

INDIA, BANGLADESH AND THE NORTHEAST - IV

Transit and transshipment-strategic considerations

K.A.S. Murshid, Research Director, BIDS

In this study we have rooted for rail based transit, which we consider
the most beneficial for Bangladesh. Although rail connectivity remains
incomplete, there are a number of grounds that favour the rail option
over the road option:
Opportunity to revive BR: The Bangladesh Railways has turned into a
moribund organization, and over the years it has lost out to other
modes of transport, especially roads. The huge potential demand for
transit services suggests that BR can tap into a large and profitable
market. This is a unique opportunity to revive the BR and undertake a
concerted effort to reclaim its share in the freight market. A vibrant
role of the BR would serve to ease the huge congestion on Bangladesh's
road infrastructure, improving efficiency and reducing accidents.

The railways are a better option for Bangladesh which is a densely
populated, land scarce country. The basic rail infrastructure already
exists and its improvement and up-gradation will not be land intensive
(unlike that of roads).
Railways are much more environmentally friendly, and cost of freight
is much cheaper. A big advantage of the road sector is door-to-door
delivery. In the case of the freight transit market, this advantage is
immaterial for Bangladesh as both the "doors" are located in India and
the problem can be handled at the respective ends through suitable
complementary facilities.

Unlike in roads, accidents are rare and usually do not involve
ordinary bystanders.
Traditionally, railways have carried low value freight while higher
value freight has tended to go to trucking companies. There is no
reason why high value goods cannot be containerized for transport by
train. In other words, if so desired, both high and low value freight
can be accommodated by the railways.

One of the most contentious points that surround the transit issue in
Bangladesh is governance and what constitutes a suitable transit trade
facilitation agreement. This is a serious issue as can be seen from
the experience of the Greater Mekong Subregion. Thus, while physical
connectivity was easily established amongst the countries of the GMS
(Yunnan, Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam), a trade
facilitation agreement took more than five years to negotiate. Even
after two years of signing the CBT agreement, the cross-border flow of
passenger and freight is yet to begin.

While the potential demand is significant, BR needs to address it very
carefully and strategically. It is important to adopt a gradual
approach, and to decide very early on that it will target only the
relatively higher end of the market, leaving the transport of low
value freight to Indian North Eastern Frontier Railways. This will
require BR to work out an investment plan to improve its
infrastructure and signalling systems, bridge missing links,
synchronise tracks, build container depots and raise its container
handling and deployment capability gradually. Most importantly, BR
will need to vastly improve its governance regime, perhaps in
appropriately designed partnerships with the private sector, including
the foreign private sector. Given the size of the market, there should
be no lack of interest on the part of investors at home and abroad,
perhaps even from India.

The aim would be to enable non-stop through freight for Indian goods
over Bangladesh, once security and customs clearance is obtained at
the border check-point(s). Given the much higher return to high value
freight (and no demand side constraint), this strategy is bound to be
economically viable, and can even be extended to domestic freight if
sufficient capacity is developed. This, at any rate, is the desired
scenario. If however, we decide to go for transit right away with
minimal investments, the costs will rise due to frequent transhipment
arising from non-compatible infrastructure, transport of low-value,
non-containerised freight, and high losses from handling and
pilferage. In that event, the missing link between Akhaura and
Agartala would need to be immediately constructed and the link from
Kulaura to Shahbazpur re-commissioned. The Asian Development Bank has
expressed some interest in financing the former component at a cost of
$35 million as well as generally funding investments in Bangladesh's
rail sector (Kaler Kontho, 23 March, 2010).

The unlikely prospect of allowing broad gauge freight trains over the
Bangabandhu (Jamuna) Bridge anytime soon, suggests that it will be a
while before a through, non-stop service can be made available. In all
likelihood, arrangements for a transhipment hub will have to be made
short of the Jamuna Bridge requiring a ferry crossing and
loading/unloading of freight on each side of Jamuna. The need to
unload and load trains will add to cost and to governance problems. In
the case of high value freight, the option is likely to be
economically viable but for low value freight, this scenario is not
likely to be attractive. It will be important to examine these cost
issues before making a final pronouncement.

An added advantage of BR is that it already has significant experience
in handling container-freight on the Dhaka-Chittagong Port route. The
ICD in Kamalapur Station in Dhaka also serves as a customs
checking/inspection point. Container trucks bring in loaded containers
to the ICD from warehouses and factories from where trains are loaded
and sent directly to the Chittagong Port. It should be relatively
simple for BR to translate this experience into cross-border
containerized transit freight services with minor operational
modifications.

Recent newspaper reports however reveal that BR's capacity to handle
even such small quantities of freight is problematic. Inadequate
number of locomotives has led to slow movement and inordinate delays
of up to a month in moving containers from Dhaka to Chittagong (Daily
Star, May 2010). This illustrates graphically, the plight of BR and
its woefully inadequate capacity to respond to the newly emerging
market demand under discussion.

Investments required
Physical barriers identified by the SAARC Regional Multi-Modal
Transport Study, are as follows:

Bangladeshi locomotives are unable to haul air-braked freight wagons
used by India, and is restricted to BCX wagons (covered, vacuum braked
eight-wheeler wagons); holding capacity of loops, yards and terminals
are inadequate on the Bangladesh side, even at the current low volume
of traffic;
Container traffic and open wagons are currently restricted by BR;
Speed of freight trains is impeded by mechanical signalling;


Restrictions in using the JMB
Section capacity constraints: between Tongi and Bhairab junctions –
generally there is a need to convert to broad gauge beyond Joydevpur;
Missing link between Akhaura and Agartala;
The Kulaura-Shahbazpur section is not currently operational;
There is need to have dual gauge on the Tongi-Shahbazpur line
Need transshipment hub at Ishwardi/Sirajnagar

Some specific sections have speed restrictions due to poor condition
of rails, e.g. Rohanpur to Rajshahi, Azimnagar to Ishwardi, Ishwardi
to Mooladuli etc.
Thus, introduction of transit services by rail requires removal of the
above type of barriers. Massive investments in rolling stock and
associated rail infrastructure should not be made at this time. The
missing links need to be restored and transshipment capability at
critical points need to be established. Thus, the Kulaura-Shahbazpuir
link will cost $33 m and the Akhaura-Agartala link will involve $8
million. In addition, land port infrastructure needs to be
strengthened, costing perhaps around $20 million. The existing ICD
terminals and transshipment yards will need expanded capability, but
it is difficult to put a figure to this. All in all, the basic
investment needed to enable rail based transit is unlikely to exceed
$100 million. If the scale of transit assumes a very large magnitude
(as surmised in ADB, 2010) then the investment scenario will change
dramatically – estimated at over $750 million in the same study.

However, quite distinct from physical barriers are the so called
non-physical barriers that restrict flow of goods by road or rail,
requiring an appropriate regulatory regime to enable transit trade.
---------------------------------------------------
The author was assisted by Md. Zabid Iqbal, Research Associate, BIDS.

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