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Tuesday, July 10, 2012

[mukto-mona] Why talk about Higgs alone for God's particle, why not talk about Bose as well



Satyen Bose, Chairman of the Department of Physics, D.U., Bangldesh, invented Boson; Higgs (or so called God's particle) is a boson also. If you visit the link below, you will learn about racism 101, and see how world media is talking about Higgs, without ever mentioning Bose, for the birth of Higgs boson. It is like - describing a hand without ever mentioning whose hand it is. It's an eye-opener.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/india-enough-higgs-lets-discuss-boson-113942299.html

 

Anyway, Higgs boson, the so called God's Particle, is born, meaning - the foundation block for the construction of the universe is found. Now what? Does this invalidate intelligent design? What do you think?

 

Jiten Roy



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[mukto-mona] RE: [PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh] Re: Dr Abdus Salam is the Father of the "Higgs Boson" - The Newly Discovered Particle Called "God Particle"



             First of all, I would like to remind everyone that "science v. religion" is an artificial feud with a political context that peaked in Christian Europe of 16th century (burning alive of Bruno at the stake, persecution of Galileo, etc.)  when the Church was struggling with its break up. Neither the Islamic world nor India ever grappled with it.  Christian fundamentalists are still carrying on the feud in the form of Creationism in the United States. 

              Please read the Nobel Lecture of Abdus Salam given at the Award ceremony in 1979 where he recalls the contribution and continuum of Arabic learning towards European science.

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1979/salam-lecture.pdf

                  There is absolutely nothing inherent in our Indo-Pak subcontinental history, tradition or various religious cultures that discouraged the pursuit of scientific learning. We may have always had some narrow-minded conservatives among us, but there were also some societal checks-and-balances that prevented excesses.  In my survey of our own history I find that there are certain trends of Medieval Christian-style orthodoxy and fundamentalism that crept in after the British colonized India, especially as the British writers began writing about Islam and Hinduism in essentialist terms. Abul 'ala Moududi is a product of that 'pulp literature' producing machine. He is the father of modern Islamic fundamentalism in the subcontinent. [Syed Qutb of Egypt, the other doyen of Islamic fanaticism, also has a similar British colonial educational background].

                     It never ceases to amaze me how today's Pakistanis, otherwise  perfectly sensible and cosmopolitan, can still be enticed by a fascist villain like Moududi and his idiotic propaganda against the Qadiyanis. Here is the last paragraph from the biography of Abdus Salam (probably written while he was still alive) in the nobelprize.org site:

<<  Abdus Salam is known to be a devout Muslim, whose religion does not occupy a separate compartment of his life; it is inseparable from his work and family life. He once wrote: "The Holy Quran enjoins us to reflect on the verities of Allah's created laws of nature; however, that our generation has been privileged to glimpse a part of His design is a bounty and a grace for which I render thanks with a humble heart." >>

The biography was written by Miriam Lewis, now at IAEA, Vienna, who was at one time on the staff of ICTP (International Centre For Theoretical Physics, Trieste).


                         Regards

                      Farida Majid

(BTW Satyen Bose was also a devout Hindu.  When a passer-by expressed surprise at his attending a Ganga-bathing Hindu religious event, Bose had answered: "What has my science got to do with my religion?")

From: machishty@isam.com.sa
To: farida_majid@hotmail.com; faizalnajdi@gmail.com; heshamsyed@yahoo.ca
CC: wajahatashraf@hotmail.com; aziz_akhtar@yahoo.com; bpf.events@yahoo.com; bpfmag@gmail.com; PakistaniCommunityinGulf@yahoogroups.com; Yaadein_Meri@yahoogroups.com; S4Sameera@yahoogroups.com; NEDGRAD_79@yahoogroups.com; pakistanwritersclub-riyadh@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh] Re: Dr Abdus Salam is the Father of the "Higgs Boson" - The Newly Discovered Particle Called "God Particle"
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 18:16:40 +0300

There is difference between Islam and Muslims. No one is defying Islam. Coming from known respectable Mulla background, still there is a  concern why Muslims' progress in scientific education stopped after the period of Islamic Golden Age, which lead to the primary concern why can't we praise work of a Pakistani Scientist and respect him irrespective of his religious belief? If Muslims became orthodox; we must change, Islam is the most modern. It needs more research and better understanding of Holy Quran to remove conflicts between modern education and religion.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh] Re: Dr Abdus Salam is the Father of the "Higgs Boson" - The Newly Discovered Particle Called "God Particle"

Coming out of the fold of Mullaism  ( which is creating doubt , fear and blockade in every process of thinking for past centuries )  is the answer - this does not defy Islam but makes you understand better what Islam demands from you - A morally vibrant, forward thinking society which focuses not only Human welfare but welfare of every creation of Allah ( swt ) who is the sovereign king or master of the universe.


From: M.A.Chishty <machishty@isam.com.sa>
To: Faiz Al-Najdi <faizalnajdi@gmail.com>; Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
Cc: pakistanwritersclub-riyadh@yahoogroups.com; nedgrad_79 <NEDGRAD_79@yahoogroups.com>; s4sameera <S4Sameera@yahoogroups.com>; Yaadein_Meri@yahoogroups.com; PakistaniCommunityinGulf <PakistaniCommunityinGulf@yahoogroups.com>; BPF Mag <bpfmag@gmail.com>; Bravo Pakistanforum <bpf.events@yahoo.com>; Hesham Syed <heshamsyed@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 12:12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh] Re: Dr Abdus Salam is the Father of the "Higgs Boson" - The Newly Discovered Particle Called "God Particle"


Dear Faiz Sahib;
 
Dr. Abdus Salam was unquestionably a great great Pakistani due to his work.
 
It makes me think whether there is any conflict between religious thinking and scientific advancement?   
It seems YES, in the West - they separated religion as one's relationship with the Allah. They left it on individual to follow. They made remarkable scientific progress and academic advancement.
 
Probably, answer is NO in the East, particularly amongst the Muslims, they failed to make progress after the Islamic Golden Age (c. 750 CE to c. 1257 CE) in which they did make remarkable contribution to scientific knowledge and education. Why they couldn't keep the pace and why there has been decline? It needs to be identified and rectified for our future generations.
 
Kind regards,
Muhammad Ali Chishty 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh] Re: Dr Abdus Salam is the Father of the "Higgs Boson" - The Newly Discovered Particle Called "God Particle"

Dear Farida Sahiba et al:

Yes - rightly so. I was in Engineering University then and I also very vividly remember that he 
preferred donning a Sherwani and a traditional Turban - very much a proud Pakistani.

I have read his bio and know that as a village boy he used to walk many miles to get to School. 
From a simple poor villager he rose to become one of the most respected scientists and a well
regarded person across the world - in Europe especially.

However we Pakistanis are now brewing in religious stew. However, we tend to forget that every 
one who was born and/or lives in Pakistan is a Pakistani - our brothers and sisters - regardless 
of his/her religious association. And, with that extension we should all feel proud of his/her 
achievement. Hope we are able to get to this point someday.

Thanx for your comments, Farida Sahiba!!!!

Love all and always.

Faiz Al-Najdi

-- 
<<Someone's Sitting in the Shade Today Because 
    Someone Planted a Tree a Long Time Ago>>
                       ~ Warren Buffet

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:16 AM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
              Pakistan's treatment of Dr. Abdus Salam is truly heart-breaking when I watched a clipping of the Nobel Prize ceremony in Stockholm where he, along with Sheldon Glashow and Steven Weinberg. were receiving the Prize in Physics in 1979.  Salam was all dressed up -- in a smart achkan and an elaborate, crisply pleated turban -- his wife in a lovely silk sari -- he was ever so proud to be a Pakistani, and he wanted the whole world to know where he was from. I had tears in my eyes watching that Nobel Prize giving ceremony.

               One should also bear in mind that the elementary particle 'boson' is named after another subcontinental physicist called Satyendranath Bose, a Bengali who used to be the Dean of the Physics Dept. at Dhaka University until the Partition.

                    Farida Majid

An older post from a Pakistani friend:

ONLY MATURE AND GRACEFUL NATIONS CAN HONOR THEIR HEROES. WE DISOWNED THE GREAT DR. ABDUL SALAM AND NOW MANMOHAN SINGH PAYS TRIBUTES TO HIM. THIS IS A SIGN OF NATIONS WHICH ARE MARCHING TOWARDS HEIGHTS OF GREATNESS.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20101019/982/tsc-manmohan-singh-pays-tributes-to-paki.html


Manmohan Singh pays tributes to Pakistani scientist Abdus Salam
Tue, Oct 19 03:26 PM
Hyderabad, Oct 19 (IANS) Prime Minister Manmohan Singh Tuesday paid tributes to Pakistani Nobel laureate Abdus Salam and recalled his association with him at Cambridge during his student days.
Inaugurating the 21st general meeting of the Academy of Sciences for the Developing World, formerly known as Third World Academy of Sciences (TWAS) here, Manmohan Singh described Salam as a visionary.
'Professor Salam had great faith in the potential of scientists of the developing world and also in the essential unity of scientific purpose in advancing human civilization as a whole. It was this vision of Professor Salam that led him to establish the Third World Academy of Sciences in 1983,' the prime minister said.
'I had a great privilege of knowing Professor Salam way back from the 1950s when I was an undergraduate in St. John's College, Cambridge, and Professor Salam was a fellow of St. John's College. Subsequently, he and I worked very closely to write the report of the South Commission which was headed by Professor Julius Nyerere, the former president of Tanzania,' he said.
'In this context, I visited Professor Salam a number of times and his wisdom, vast experience and knowledge were truly phenomenal. I pay my homage and humble tribute to this great leader of science and revered scientist who showed us the path to cooperation and collaboration that will and can benefit us all.'
'It was Sir Winston Churchill who once said in an address at Harvard University way back in 1943: 'The empires of the future are going to be the empires of the mind'.
'There was perhaps no one who believed more fervently in Churchill's prophesy than Professor Abdus Salam, who was one of the most outstanding scientists of his generation,' the prime minister said.
He also said the developing world needed many more men and women like Salam to create empires of knowledge.




To: machishty@isam.com.sa
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From: faizalnajdi@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 23:04:42 +0300
Subject: [PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh] Re: Dr Abdus Salam is the Father of the "Higgs Boson" - The Newly Discovered Particle Called "God Particle"

 

Dear Chishty Sahab et al:

Couldn't agree more, Sir!!!

Thank you for this note of appreciation!!

Love all and always.

Faiz Al-Najdi


-- 
<<Someone's Sitting in the Shade Today Because 
    Someone Planted a Tree a Long Time Ago>>
                       ~ Warren Buffet

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 6:32 PM, M.A.Chishty <machishty@isam.com.sa> wrote:
Dear Faiz Sahib;
While reading your informative text, I was thinking to add comment; when I read at the end "what we did to him...", it tells everything, no need to add my note except I fully share it with you.
I am proud of Dr. Abdus Salam, he was a Pakistani only (not duel nationality) and I am also proud of being his neighbor as a teenager in PECHS Block II. 
I have seen his noble family and the noble prize winner very closely. While playing cricket on the road, whenever I hit the ball in his parental house, I was afraid of complaint. But to my surprise, his old father used to bring the ball with a smile on his face, some time, their ladies came upto the gate to give us ball with no complaint but covered in Abaya
Thanks, your email reminded of young days and great Dr. Salam and his noble family.  
Best regards,
M. A. Chishty
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 3:55 PM
Subject: Dr Abdus Salam is the Father of the "Higgs Boson" - The Newly Discovered Particle Called "God Particle"

Dear All:

Last year in June I was in Zurich-Switzerland to attend a Structural Engineering Conference and also to present there a research 
paper of mine.

After the Conference I took some time off to visit Geneva. Upon arrival in Geneva, my children drew my attention to CERN - and 
advised me to find time to visit. Frankly, I had no idea then about CERN.

Luckily the Hotel where I was staying gave us some leaflets and brochures for the things to see in Geneva. I was surprised to see 
the Leaflets did mention about CERN also and how to get there - that is details about the Trams that went there.

Therefore, the first thing in the morning that I did was to set off for CERN. Wow - it was a great place to visit - never in my life I had 
visited such a place.

If you do not know it already CERN is:

CERN is the Eurpean Organization for Nuclear Reserach.
 
Its Hadron Collider is the word's largest - with 27 Km built 100 m below the earth and spans between Switzterland and France.
 
URL Links:

Any way to cut story short I spent almost 3 hrs in the two museums there at CERN. In one of the museums I watched a Video which 
mentioned that Dr. Abdus Salam, the only proud Pakistani to have won the coveted Nobel Prize, in his research that won him the Nobel 
Prize had mentioned the need to discover a New Particle. This Hydron Collider that was set up at CERN is to do to discover this New 
Particle.

Dr. Abdus Salam and Steven Weinberg, with whom he shared the Nobel Prize, independently predicted the existence of a subatomic 
particle which has now been finally discovered - and called the Higgs Boson, named after a British physicist who theorized that it endowed other particles with mass.

Well, Dr. Abdus Salam did us Pakistani proud but what we did to him - to disgrace him - is no secret. 

An article from Washington Post tells all.

URL Link:

Love all and always.

Faiz Al-Najdi

P.S: Below this article is the email that I had posted to the PWC Group immediately after visiting CERN last year. 
You may find it interesting to read too.


<<Someone's Sitting in the Shade Today Because 
    Someone Planted a Tree a Long Time Ago>>
                       ~ Warren Buffet



Click here!

Pakistan shuns prize-winning physicist linked to 'God particle' because of religious beliefs

By Associated Press, Updated: Monday, July 9, 7:24 AM

ISLAMABAD — The pioneering work of Abdus Salam, Pakistan's only Nobel laureate, helped lead to the apparent discovery of the subatomic "God particle" last week. But the late physicist is no hero at home, where his name has been stricken from school textbooks.
Praise within Pakistan for Salam, who also guided the early stages of the country's nuclear program, faded decades ago as Muslim fundamentalists gained power. He belonged to the Ahmadi sect, which has been persecuted by the government and targeted by Taliban militants who view its members as heretics.
Their plight — along with that of Pakistan's other religious minorities, such as Shiite Muslims, Christians and Hindus — has deepened in recent years as hardline interpretations of Islam have gained ground and militants have stepped up attacks against groups they oppose. Most Pakistanis are Sunni Muslims.
Salam, a child prodigy born in 1926 in what was to become Pakistan after the partition of British-controlled India, won more than a dozen international prizes and honors. In 1979, he was co-winner of the Nobel Prize for his work on the so-called Standard Model of particle physics, which theorizes how fundamental forces govern the overall dynamics of the universe. He died in 1996.
Salam and Steven Weinberg, with whom he shared the Nobel Prize, independently predicted the existence of a subatomic particle now called the Higgs boson, named after a British physicist who theorized that it endowed other particles with mass, said Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani physicist who once worked with Salam. It is also known as the "God particle" because its existence is vitally important toward understanding the early evolution of the universe.
Physicists in Switzerland stoked worldwide excitement Wednesday when they announced they have all but proven the particle's existence. This was done using the world's largest atom smasher at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, near Geneva.
"This would be a great vindication of Salam's work and the Standard Model as a whole," said Khurshid Hasanain, chairman of the physics department at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad.
In the 1960s and early 1970s, Salam wielded significant influence in Pakistan as the chief scientific adviser to the president, helping to set up the country's space agency and institute for nuclear science and technology. Salam also assisted in the early stages of Pakistan's effort to build a nuclear bomb, which it eventually tested in 1998.
Salam's life, along with the fate of the 3 million other Ahmadis in Pakistan, drastically changed in 1974 when parliament amended the constitution to declare that members of the sect were not considered Muslims under Pakistani law.
Ahmadis believe their spiritual leader, Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who died in 1908, was a prophet of God — a position rejected by the government in response to a mass movement led by Pakistan's major Islamic parties. Islam considers Muhammad the last prophet and those who subsequently declared themselves prophets as heretics.
All Pakistani passport applicants must sign a section saying the Ahmadi faith's founder was an "impostor" and his followers are "non-Muslims." Ahmadis are prevented by law in Pakistan to "pose" as Muslims, declare their faith publicly, call their places of worship mosques or perform the Muslim call to prayer. They can be punished with prison and even death.
Salam resigned from his government post in protest following the 1974 constitutional amendment and eventually moved to Europe to pursue his work. In Italy, he created a center for theoretical physics to help physicists from the developing world.
Although Pakistan's then-president, Gen. Zia ul-Haq, presented Salam with Pakistan's highest civilian honor after he won the Nobel Prize, the general response in the country was muted. The physicist was celebrated more enthusiastically by other nations, including Pakistan's archenemy, India.
Despite his achievements, Salam's name appears in few textbooks and is rarely mentioned by Pakistani leaders or the media. By contrast, fellow Pakistani physicist A.Q. Khan, who played a key role in developing the country's nuclear bomb and later confessed to spreading nuclear technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya, is considered a national hero. Khan is a Muslim.
Officials at Quaid-i-Azam University had to cancel plans for Salam to lecture about his Nobel-winning theory when Islamist student activists threatened to break the physicist's legs, said his colleague Hoodbhoy.
"The way he has been treated is such a tragedy," said Hoodbhoy. "He went from someone who was revered in Pakistan, a national celebrity, to someone who could not set foot in Pakistan. If he came, he would be insulted and could be hurt or even killed."
The president who honored Salam would later go on to intensify persecution of Ahmadis, for whom life in Pakistan has grown even more precarious. Taliban militants attacked two mosques packed with Ahmadis in Lahore in 2010, killing at least 80 people.
"Many Ahmadis have received letters from fundamentalists since the 2010 attacks threatening to target them again, and the government isn't doing anything," said Qamar Suleiman, a spokesman for the Ahmadi community.
For Salam, not even death saved him from being targeted.
Hoodbhoy said his body was returned to Pakistan in 1996 after he died in Oxford, England, and was buried under a gravestone that read "First Muslim Nobel Laureate." A local magistrate ordered that the word "Muslim" be erased.
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
© The Washington Post Company
MY EMAIL THAT I HAD SENT FROM GENEVA IN JUNE-2011 AFTER VISITING CERN (COPY-PASTED)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Faiz Al-Najdi <faizalnajdi@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh] CERN - the World's Largest Hadron Collider
To: PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh@yahoogroups.com
Cc: overseas.pakistanis@gmail.com, pakistanicommunityingulf@yahoogroups.com, overseas_pakistanis-owner@yahoogroups.com, s4sameera@yahoogroups.com


Dear Pervez Naushahi:
 
Thanx for the kind words and appreciations. I likedthe way
you recalled our first encounter with each other at the Galadari
Cement project. This was at the time when I had just returned
after completing my masters at AIT and my seccond stint with
NESPAK-Karachi.
 
Thanx again for this reminder!!
 
As The Carpenters (Karen) has sung her famoous number,
Yesterdya Once More....
<<Those were the happiest times and not so long ago,
how I wonder where they have gone. But they are back
again just like the long lost friend...its Yesterday once more...>>

About CERN, let me add here further that the reserach that got Dr. Abdus Salam
and his co-author the coveted Nobel Prize had indicated need of reserach to find
and discover a new Element "W".
 
The Physicists at CERN explore matter using machnie called "Particle  Accelerators".
These accelerate beams of particles and smash them into each other, or into other
targets, to create high energy conditions similar to those in the first instants of the
Universe - that is the Big Bang. During this particle collision a new element "W" is
created, which Dr. Abdus Salam and his co-authors had first stipulated in their award
winning research.
 
In the Hadron Collider Museum at CERN there are many videos shown. In one such video
it is shown how the particle collision came to create the new element "W", and it did show
Dr. Abdus Salam and mentioned his name giving him full honor and credit to him. I felt
very proud at that time. Then I though what we did to this legend - Dr. Abdus Salam. We
ostracised him although he deserved to be weighed in gold.
 
Shame on us!!!!!
 
Love all and always.
 
Faiz Al-Najdi
 
--
<<Dil Na Umeed toh Nahin , Nakaam hi toh Hae
Lambi Hae Gham ki Sham, Magar Sham hi to Hae>>
                         ----------Faiz Ahmad Faiz

 
On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Pervez Naushahi <p_naushahi@hotmail.com> wrote:
 

Dear Faiz, A.A.
 
Its good to see you still keep your interest in engineering like you had at Galadari Cement project/NESPAK, 30 yrs ago. You are big source of inspiration for other engineers to try & perform at their best. Just for information, CERN president was in Islamabad/Nathiagally to attend 36th yearly international summer camp of nuclear scientists (started in 1976). He had meeting with our prime minister & invited him to  visit & collaborate with CERN. Have good time in beautiful place with beautiful people as well.
 
Wassalam.

Parvez Naushahi
General Manager
GEC, P. O. Box 2870
Al Khobar 31952
Saudi Arabia

 

To: PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh@yahoogroups.com; overseas.pakistanis@gmail.com; PakistaniCommunityinGulf@yahoogroups.com; overseas_pakistanis-owner@yahoogroups.com; S4Sameera@yahoogroups.com
From: faizalnajdi@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:07:17 +0200
Subject: [PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh] CERN - the World's Largest Hadron Collider

 
Dear All:
 
After an exhausting Conference in Zurich I came to Geneva to relax - for sight-seeing,
looking at the city, its street sites, buildings & architectures, its Trams, buses, and
railways and above its lakes and fountains.
 
However, my children enlightened me about CERN and its two museums. Frankly
I didn't know about CERN at all, before my children educated me about the same.
 
This morning I was at CERN to see its two museums.
 
CERN is the Eurpean Organization for Nuclear Reserach.
 
Its Hadron Collider is the word's largest - with 27 Km built 100 m below the earth and
spans between Swizterland and France.
 
URL Links:
 
Please find time to read an explore about CERN and let yoyr children know about is also.
 
Love all and always.
 
Faiz Al-Najdi

--
<<Dil Na Umeed toh Nahin , Nakaam hi toh Hae
Lambi Hae Gham ki Sham, Magar Sham hi to Hae>>
                         ----------Faiz Ahmad Faiz
 
Home | Sitemap | Contact us
 
this site all CERN
CERN logo

CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research - The Large Hadron Collider

Inside the LHC tunnel

The Large Hadron Collider

Our understanding of the Universe is about to change...

The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a gigantic scientific instrument near Geneva, where it spans the border between Switzerland and France about 100 m underground. It is a particle accelerator used by physicists to study the smallest known particles – the fundamental building blocks of all things. It will revolutionise our understanding, from the minuscule world deep within atoms to the vastness of the Universe.
Two beams of subatomic particles called 'hadrons' – either protons or lead ions – will travel in opposite directions inside the circular accelerator, gaining energy with every lap. Physicists will use the LHC to recreate the conditions just after the Big Bang, by colliding the two beams head-on at very high energy. Teams of physicists from around the world will analyse the particles created in the collisions using special detectors in a number of experiments dedicated to the LHC.
There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions, but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator, as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe. For decades, the Standard Model of particle physics has served physicists well as a means of understanding the fundamental laws of Nature, but it does not tell the whole story. Only experimental data using the higher energies reached by the LHC can push knowledge forward, challenging those who seek confirmation of established knowledge, and those who dare to dream beyond the paradigm.
 

 
Copyright CERN 2008 - Web Communications, DSU-CO











-














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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)



Quran promises believers will enjoy in the afterworld, including the promise of 72 Virgins, etc.?

>>>>>>> Where in the Qur'an it talks about 72 virgins?

Also, people are interested in religion to assure a safe ride in the after world. How can you verify that promise?  No one can.

>>>>>>>>>>> You don't have to set foot on the sun to realize how hot is it. You take some data and test them to figure out the surface of the sun is pretty close to what we call "Hell fire". Similarly if we examine the Qur'an which has plenty of verses that can be verified, we can take the rest of the verses as authentic.

When you were a student, you studied "On faith" that if he studied hard, you will end up with a nice life. There is no way to "Verify" these (For you) beforehand. You looked around spoke to people older than you and from their experiences accepted you course of life.

Plenty of people (Out of around 1.7 billion people) think about the Qur'an and questions the Qur'an (As a seeker). Qur'an is an "Unique" book which continues to give answers to people.

You need to establish your faith with verification, not with blind faith

>>>>>>> Absolutely. That is why I read books by atheist Aroj Ali Matubbor" and verified his "Concerns" first hand. Few people realize he distributed his properties among his children according to Islamic Sharia. So when he was older, he got much smarter and less angry (it started with a sad incident with his mother's dead body).

Similarly I try to see this topic from all points of views. I am a member of this forum not to validate my faith system but to be challenged. So far I am happy with what I learned here.


If a religion says - do not hurt anyone on purpose; you can believe in it, and you can apply it in your life to reap heavenly benefits

>>>>>>>>> Actually I studied and observed people who did hurt people for their selfish interest. Most of them are miserable. I think it is a good secular code of life as well. It gives us reward in this world as well.


In this post, I have shared my "Personal" view on faith matters. Hope it will be helpful answering some of your concerns.


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jul 10, 2012 8:57 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)

 
QR Said: As a Muslim, I was surprised when I learn that, Qur'an asks the readers to verify what the Qur'an says.
_____________________________
 
Quran said really nice thing - verify what you believe in. I like that spirit.
But, the question is - how can you verify all those amenities of heaven that Quran promises believers will enjoy in the afterworld, including the promise of 72 Virgins, etc.? You can't.
Also, people are interested in religion to assure a safe ride in the after world. How can you verify that promise?  No one can.
You need to establish your faith with verification, not with blind faith. You can trust something as a starting point only – then verify it to establish your confidence. If a religion says - do not hurt anyone on purpose; you can believe in it, and you can apply it in your life to reap heavenly benefits. That's the right way to go about religion. I agree!
Jiten Roy

--- On Thu, 7/5/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 5, 2012, 1:34 PM

 
"A person with absolute faith does not guess and no gambling is involved."
 
Wrong! Religion is based on guesses about eternal phenomena and rewards, which may or may not be true. People are sacrificing their lives willingly for these guesses, and people are also losing lives just because of these guesses. This is high stake gabling.


>>>>>>>>> Member Subimal's statement/observation is closer to how a "Religious" person sees religion and member Roy's observation reflects how a anti-religious person view's religion.

Also it is right that, most religions spoke against gambling. Even in the US tax on alcohol and gambling is often called as "Sin tax". Most of the time taxes are high on these activities.

As a Muslim, I was surprised when I learn that, Qur'an asks the readers to verify what the Qur'an says. It also asks us to reflect and use our wisdom. To me it is a very pragmatic book that is often "Worshiped" (But not followed!) by some backward people.


Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 8:28 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)

 
"A person with absolute faith does not guess and no gambling is involved."
 
Wrong! Religion is based on guesses about eternal phenomena and rewards, which may or may not be true. People are sacrificing their lives willingly for these guesses, and people are also losing lives just because of these guesses. This is high stake gabling.
 
--- On Sun, 7/1/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, July 1, 2012, 4:04 PM

 
Guess (the name of the girl:-* kiss who has put her beautiful palms on your eyes), wild guess (no clue and hence choose option D), educated guess (options A and B have been eliminated and hence choose between C and D), speculation (invest in Company A), etc. are not synonymous. Of these, the phrase "wild guess" has a negative connotation. In this case the guesser has absolutely no clue about the possible outcome. Even in this case "faith" has no role. A person with absolute faith does not guess and no gambling is involved. He acts with 100% confidence. There are, however, "partial" believers (skeptics!) (I have met people belonging to this group) who are not risk averse at all when it comes to religion and hence acts like a believer although sometimes in a loosely bound way.  
 
I think all the great religions have spoken against gambling. Sage Manu has disapproved of gambling. From Mahabharata we know that the pious kings had the custom of gambling. Yuthisthira lost in gambling his entire kingdom and even his and his four brothers' common wife Draupadi. Probably the author of this epic Vyasadev was also not in favor of gambling. 
 
Economic history points to the fact that speculation in stock markets can be catastrophic. No doubt there is fun and excitement and sorrow as well associated with gambling. We have seen how gambling, wine, women can go hand in hand to ruin a person or a whole family. That's why I think religious prohibitions may be rooted in preserving or promoting the welfare of the followers.
 
Having said all this, I am not against gambling as a fun and gambling as a fund raising mechanism.     
      

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 11:47 AM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)
 
We sometime commit resources in our personal lives purely based on faith. We do it in quest of some sort of gain. This is gambling. Even though people may get handsomely rewarded sometimes, mostly they lose it all. This is why gambling businesses do exist on the face of the earth. Everybody knows this fact, yet - most of us do it anyway. We do it for fun and excitement. It brings thrill of winning and agony of failure. The key is to control the extent of gambling. It's like investing in the stock exchange; you do it with the money you can afford to lose. There is no gambling without risk. May be that's why most religions do not sanction these types of activities. But, wait a minute! Isn't religion one such faith also? Isn't religion the biggest gambling endeavor in our lives? Shouldn't we keep it under control also to enjoy the thrill and excitement of this gambling activity.
 
Jiten Roy
 
N. B. I believe religion could be a fun thing in our lives if we could keep it under control. 


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