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Monday, May 6, 2013

Re: [mukto-mona] Jinnah, the secular democrat?



"If he was not a Muslim fanatic bigot,...".  Jinnah relished pork sandwich and never even bowed towards Mecca.  He was a British agent as observed Wali Khan.  When Mr. Khan went for treatment in England, he had the opportunity to study the declassified British information about Jinnah and his role in the partition of Pakistan.  About five years before he was made the President of All India Muslim League, he actively retired from Indian Politics, and left India for England to practice law there.  Then he was hand picked by the Winston Churchill to pursue his heinous politics.  Sure, he was more secular than Gandhi.  His politics had no grassroots.  In sickbed during his last days, he confessed that his worst mistake in life was to achieve Pakistan.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

May be Dr. Jiten Roy should read the following article by Faiz Ahmed Faiz:
 
 
He should also read the book, India Wins Freedom, by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.
 
Jinnah insisted that Congress was a Hindu party, even when Maulana Azad was the President of that party. He also insisted that Muslim League was the legitimate representative of all the Muslims of India, even when that party did not have parliamentary majority in three principal Muslim-majority provinces, Punjab, N.W.F. and Bengal. If he was not a Muslim fanatic bigot, who was? I would insist that his talk of a secular Pakistan in 1948 was probably due to his over-consumption of alcohol on that day. He was not a serious believer in Islam; he was fanatic about his Muslim clan.
 
I am surprised by Dr. Roy's question, "What could have been the national language of Pakistan, other than Urdu?" Why could you not think of Bangla as a more appropriate choice?
 
Obviously, Urdu was the language of the Muslim aristocrats. Bangla was the language of an overwhelming majority population of Pakistan. In terms of usage in artistic and scientific literature, Bangla was better than Urdu. I would be happy to be corrected if you can provide comparative works in the two languages, both in science and in arts. My limited knowledge tells me that people like Rabindra Nath Tagore in literature and Jagadish Chandra Basu in science were not to be found in Urdu in 1948, when Jinnah wanted Urdu, the language of only 8% of the population of Pakistan, to be the national language. Thus, respecting people (democracy) was not what Jinnah had in his head.
 
Sukhamaya Bain.
 
=====================================
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Ten
 
I tend to agree with Sukhamaya about Jinnah though                    
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:58:58 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru 
Sorry, another mistake in the last line - it's 'state affairs', not 'national affairs'
--- On Sun, 5/5/13, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013, 6:53 PM

 
 I disagree. Jinnah was much more secular than any other Islamist autocrats came after him. They all hated him for that. He deserves much more credit than was given to him; his ideals would have made Pakistan a much better country than it is today.  What could have been the national language of Pakistan, other than Urdu? Hindi is the national language of India, but – each state has own language for national affairs. I don't see your point.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Sun, 5/5/13, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013, 6:18 PM

 
Jinnah's only ideology was probably to make himself the supreme leader of Pakistan. Please stop giving him undue credits. His secular credential has been way overblown. If he wanted a secular Pakistan, he could not have worked with religious hate-mongers to accomplish that. He was not a democrat, he was an aristocrat. If he had much respect for democracy, he could not have insisted on Urdu to be the national language of Pakistan.

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
 
Jinnah had an ideology for Pakistan, but - the wise guys of Pakistan had a better idea, and - that is to make it an Islamic country. The rest is history.

Jiten Roy
 




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Re: [mukto-mona] Jinnah, the secular democrat?



I am sorry, I don't have time to read all the literature you have suggested. Thanks anyway. This is how I see - books are written by people, who have something different to say about something else. The fact is – how do I know who is right. But, I heard what Jinnah said in his speech. Jinnah was the leader, who had the clout and connection to make Pakistan a reality. We have to start from that point on; not what could have been or would have been.

 

You are saying - I would insist that his talk of a secular Pakistan in 1948 was probably due to his over-consumption of alcohol on that day. He was not a serious believer in Islam; he was fanatic about his Muslim clan.

You believe in the influence of alcohol argument. That is hard to swallow for me. Tel me - who else among the rest of the bunch came to power in Pakistan ever talked about secularism? None, at all! You are just making bunch of assumption. He was only alive for about a year after the emancipation of Pakistan.  I am a realist. I want to make judgment based on what he has said, not from what others have said about him.

 

You also saidI am surprised by Dr. Roy's question, "What could have been the national language of Pakistan, other than Urdu?" Why could you not think of Bangla as a more appropriate choice?

 

Again, please think about the reality - East Pakistan was subordinate to West Pakistan, and you are asking for Bangla to be the National Language of Pakistan. It may be logical - but not real.  I am sure - Jinnah may not have ever heard of Bangla language at that time from his companions from the east; they used to communicate in either Hindi or Urdu.

 

I, usually, do not make judgment based on ideals. As a result, I judge Jinnah based on what he said, and did, after Pakistan became a reality.  As you know, Pakistan was created as a homeland for Muslims, and just after it was a reality, Jinnah publicly proposed in a speech - Pakistan is for all Pakistani, irrespective of religion. He could have remained steadfast in the initial line of politics, which could have been much more popular. Instead, he chose secularism, which was the least popular political line. I am not sure if secularism was ever talked about in Pakistan after him. Wouldn't you give him some credit for that, at least?

 

Jiten Roy
--- On Mon, 5/6/13, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Jinnah, the secular democrat?
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, May 6, 2013, 10:03 PM

 

May be Dr. Jiten Roy should read the following article by Faiz Ahmed Faiz:
 
 
He should also read the book, India Wins Freedom, by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.
 
Jinnah insisted that Congress was a Hindu party, even when Maulana Azad was the President of that party. He also insisted that Muslim League was the legitimate representative of all the Muslims of India, even when that party did not have parliamentary majority in three principal Muslim-majority provinces, Punjab, N.W.F. and Bengal. If he was not a Muslim fanatic bigot, who was? I would insist that his talk of a secular Pakistan in 1948 was probably due to his over-consumption of alcohol on that day. He was not a serious believer in Islam; he was fanatic about his Muslim clan.
 
I am surprised by Dr. Roy's question, "What could have been the national language of Pakistan, other than Urdu?" Why could you not think of Bangla as a more appropriate choice?
 
Obviously, Urdu was the language of the Muslim aristocrats. Bangla was the language of an overwhelming majority population of Pakistan. In terms of usage in artistic and scientific literature, Bangla was better than Urdu. I would be happy to be corrected if you can provide comparative works in the two languages, both in science and in arts. My limited knowledge tells me that people like Rabindra Nath Tagore in literature and Jagadish Chandra Basu in science were not to be found in Urdu in 1948, when Jinnah wanted Urdu, the language of only 8% of the population of Pakistan, to be the national language. Thus, respecting people (democracy) was not what Jinnah had in his head.
 
Sukhamaya Bain.
 
=====================================
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Ten
 
I tend to agree with Sukhamaya about Jinnah though                    
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: jnrsr53@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:58:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru 
Sorry, another mistake in the last line - it's 'state affairs', not 'national affairs'
--- On Sun, 5/5/13, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013, 6:53 PM

 
 I disagree. Jinnah was much more secular than any other Islamist autocrats came after him. They all hated him for that. He deserves much more credit than was given to him; his ideals would have made Pakistan a much better country than it is today.  What could have been the national language of Pakistan, other than Urdu? Hindi is the national language of India, but – each state has own language for national affairs. I don't see your point.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Sun, 5/5/13, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013, 6:18 PM

 
Jinnah's only ideology was probably to make himself the supreme leader of Pakistan. Please stop giving him undue credits. His secular credential has been way overblown. If he wanted a secular Pakistan, he could not have worked with religious hate-mongers to accomplish that. He was not a democrat, he was an aristocrat. If he had much respect for democracy, he could not have insisted on Urdu to be the national language of Pakistan.

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
 
Jinnah had an ideology for Pakistan, but - the wise guys of Pakistan had a better idea, and - that is to make it an Islamic country. The rest is history.

Jiten Roy
 


__._,_.___


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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

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               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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[mukto-mona] হেফাজত চলে গেছে, রেখে গেছে বিধ্বস্ত ঢাকা



হেফাজত চলে গেছে, রেখে গেছে বিধ্বস্ত ঢাকা
জনকণ্ঠ রিপোর্ট ॥ হেফাজতের তাণ্ডবে জাতীয় মসজিদ বায়তুল মোকাররম, গুলিস্তানের গোলাপশাহ্ মাজার, পল্টন, মতিঝিল, বঙ্গবন্ধু জাতীয় স্টেডিয়াম, আওয়ামী লীগের কেন্দ্রীয় কার্যালয়সহ পুরো এলাকা এখনও পরিত্যক্ত রণক্ষেত্র। তারা বায়তুল মোকাররম মসজিদে আগুন ধরিয়ে দেয়। শত শত পবিত্র কোরান শরীফ, জায়নামাজ, হাদীস ও অসংখ্য আলেম-ওলামার লিখিত ইসলামী বই পুড়িয়ে দিয়েছে। তারা জবাই করার উদ্যোগ নেয় বায়তুল মোকাররমের মোয়াজিন মাসুদুর রহমানকে। গত তিরিশ বছর ঢাকাবাসী যাঁর সুমধুর আজানের ধ্বনি শুনছে। বায়তুল মোকাররম মার্কেটের যেসব দোকানের ভাড়া দিয়ে মসজিদের বিভিন্ন উন্নয়নমূলক কর্মকা- এবং মসজিদে চাকরিরত মানুষের বেতনভাতাদি দেয়া হয়, সেসব দোকানপাট পর্যন্ত জ্বালিয়ে দিয়েছে। পুড়িয়ে দিয়েছে অন্তত ৭ শতাধিক দোকানপাট। আর ভাংচুর করেছে অন্তত অর্ধশত ভবনে। তা-বে পথে বসতে হয়েছে অসংখ্য ফুটপাথের দোকানি ও তাঁর পরিবারকে। আর সর্বস্বান্ত হয়ে পুরোপুরি বেকার হয়ে পড়েছেন হাজার হাজার ক্ষুদ্র ব্যবসায়ী। এদের আর্তনাদ আর আহাজারিতে মতিঝিল, বায়তুল মোকাররমসহ আশপাশের এলাকার বাতাস যেন ভারী হয়ে আছে। ক্ষতিগ্রস্তদের দাবি, যারা শত শত পবিত্র কোরান শরীফ পুড়িয়ে দিতে পারে, জায়নামাজে আগুন ধরিয়ে দিতে পারে আর এমন নৈরাজ্য সৃষ্টি করতে পারে তারা ইসলামের হেফাজতকারী নয়, তারা হলো ধ্বংসকারী। তাদের বিচার হতেই হবে। ক্ষতিগ্রস্তদের অভিযোগ, বিরোধীদলীয় নেতা বিএনপি চেয়ারপার্সন খালেদা জিয়ার উস্কানিমূলক বক্তব্যের কারণেই হেফাজতে ইসলাম আর জামায়াত-শিবির মিলে এমন তা-ব চালিয়েছে। পুরো তা-ব পরিচালিত হয়েছে সদ্য বন্ধ হয়ে যাওয়া একটি টেলিভিশন চ্যানেলের কার্যালয় থেকে। হেফাজতীদের তা-বে ক্ষয়ক্ষতির পরিমাণ কয়েক হাজার কোটি টাকা। 
দেখা গেল পুরানা পল্টনের কালভার্ট রোডের মাঝখানের ডিভাইডারে থাকা অন্তত ৫০টি গাছ কেটে ফেলেছে তারা। এসব গাছ কুড়াল ও করাত দিয়ে কাটা হয়েছে। এসব গাছ ফেলা হয়েছে রাস্তার ওপর। অনেকটা যুদ্ধক্ষেত্রে যেমনটা করা হয়। আশপাশের প্রতিটি ভবনের দরজা জানালার কাঁচ ভাঙ্গা। পুরানা পল্টন মোড়ের ৩ নম্বর কমরেড মণি সিংহ স্মৃতি ট্রাস্টের চারতলা ভবনটি শ্রীহীন হয়ে দাঁড়িয়ে আছে। তার সামনের কোন কাঁচ নেই। প্রতিটি কাঁচ ভাঙ্গা। পাশের মুক্তি ভবনটি দাঁড়িয়ে আছে কঙ্কালসার হয়ে। ভবনের সামনে থাকা বাংলাদেশের কমিউনিস্ট পার্টির অফিসের সাইনবোর্ডটিই শুধু কোনমতে টিকে আছে। ভবনের আর কিছুই টিকে নেই। ভবনের গা-জুড়ে শুধু কালি আর কালি। সারা গায়ে যেন কালিমা লেপন করে দাঁড়িয়ে আছে লজ্জায়। 


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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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[mukto-mona] Jinnah, the secular democrat?



May be Dr. Jiten Roy should read the following article by Faiz Ahmed Faiz:
 
 
He should also read the book, India Wins Freedom, by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.
 
Jinnah insisted that Congress was a Hindu party, even when Maulana Azad was the President of that party. He also insisted that Muslim League was the legitimate representative of all the Muslims of India, even when that party did not have parliamentary majority in three principal Muslim-majority provinces, Punjab, N.W.F. and Bengal. If he was not a Muslim fanatic bigot, who was? I would insist that his talk of a secular Pakistan in 1948 was probably due to his over-consumption of alcohol on that day. He was not a serious believer in Islam; he was fanatic about his Muslim clan.
 
I am surprised by Dr. Roy's question, "What could have been the national language of Pakistan, other than Urdu?" Why could you not think of Bangla as a more appropriate choice?
 
Obviously, Urdu was the language of the Muslim aristocrats. Bangla was the language of an overwhelming majority population of Pakistan. In terms of usage in artistic and scientific literature, Bangla was better than Urdu. I would be happy to be corrected if you can provide comparative works in the two languages, both in science and in arts. My limited knowledge tells me that people like Rabindra Nath Tagore in literature and Jagadish Chandra Basu in science were not to be found in Urdu in 1948, when Jinnah wanted Urdu, the language of only 8% of the population of Pakistan, to be the national language. Thus, respecting people (democracy) was not what Jinnah had in his head.
 
Sukhamaya Bain.
 
=====================================
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Ten
 
I tend to agree with Sukhamaya about Jinnah though                    
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:58:58 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru 
Sorry, another mistake in the last line - it's 'state affairs', not 'national affairs'
--- On Sun, 5/5/13, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013, 6:53 PM

 
 I disagree. Jinnah was much more secular than any other Islamist autocrats came after him. They all hated him for that. He deserves much more credit than was given to him; his ideals would have made Pakistan a much better country than it is today.  What could have been the national language of Pakistan, other than Urdu? Hindi is the national language of India, but – each state has own language for national affairs. I don't see your point.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Sun, 5/5/13, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013, 6:18 PM

 
Jinnah's only ideology was probably to make himself the supreme leader of Pakistan. Please stop giving him undue credits. His secular credential has been way overblown. If he wanted a secular Pakistan, he could not have worked with religious hate-mongers to accomplish that. He was not a democrat, he was an aristocrat. If he had much respect for democracy, he could not have insisted on Urdu to be the national language of Pakistan.

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
 
Jinnah had an ideology for Pakistan, but - the wise guys of Pakistan had a better idea, and - that is to make it an Islamic country. The rest is history.

Jiten Roy
 


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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
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http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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