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Sunday, December 29, 2013

Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins



Member A. Rahman,

You have raised several questions that would require detailed answers. I'll attempt to start with them and if you have more questions, feel free to ask follow up questions or state your concerns or opinions.


Here we have bumped into a source of perennial conflict that had dogged Islam ever since. Which one do you call  Islamic and which one do you leave outside it, when Islam is avowedly the follow up of Judaism and Christianity?

>>>>>>>>>> Islam started with the FIRST man on earth our spiritual father Adam (PBUH). Islam was revealed in stages via different messengers of Allah (PBUT) to different nations and tribes. However the examples given most frequently are from the "Chosen tribe" or "Bani Israel" AKA "Bene Israel" (In Hebrew).

Everything that was part of "Original revelations" are Islamic. Prior to last messenger of Allah Muhammad (PBUH) the revelations came to certain tribe/nation of people and they were "Time bound" (Valid until the next messenger came). However the final messenger of Allah (PBUH) came with the final revelation (The noble Qurán) that was addressed to all of humanity and will be valid until the last day on earth.

ALSO as known to most student of theology, both NT and OT (The Bible) was not preserved correctly and some parts of it were added by rulers, kings over time. (For example the most popular version of the Bible is known as "The Kind James VERSION not Bible of Jesus).

Naturally the Qurán confirms the ORIGINAL version of the Gospel according to Jesus (Not the "Modern" Bible in it's entirety). Interestingly the biggest group of people who objected to the authenticity of the Bible are not Muslims but Christians. They are known as "Protestant" Christians who rejected around seven chapters of the "Catholic" Bible. Then you also have many other sub-groups within Christianity who rejects parts of the Bible and added what they think is the "Original".

First of all, if you carefully read the Bible, you will NOT be able to find words like "Christianity" or "Judaism". God who sent revelations to "Children of Israel" never named his religion as "Christians" or "Judaism". Like the term "Hinduism", the name "Judaism" originated from a geographic location. The group of people who migrated from Egypt (North Africa) to Palestine settled in a place called Judea (Modern day west bank). Later non-Jews stated calling them as "People from Judea" Which became a brand name of the people who lived there. Later the monotheistic faith practiced by them were known as "Judaism". This word cannot be found in any parts of Jewish scriptures. 

Here is a little bit about that, ....


The words Jews and Judaism are English words derived from the Hebrew words, respectively of "Yehudim" and "Yahadut." Yehudim (Jews) practice Yahadut (Judaism), which refers to the body of Jewish religious thought, customs, symbols, rituals and laws.

In the early 1st millennium BCE, Judaism got its name from "Judah", the land of the Hebrews. We find the term "Judaism" used in the first century CE by Greek-speaking Jews. References include the Second Book of Maccabees 2:21 and 8:1. "Yahadut" or "dat Yahadut" is used infrequently in medieval commentaries, e.g. Ibn Ezra, but it is used extensively in modern Jewish history.
[ Source:
Origin of the Word "Judaism" by Rabbi Lerner ]





The Term Christianity
has similar history. This term was given to followers of Jesus by non-Christians (NOT by God).

Therefore, as per Islamic theologians, all followers of Abraham, Moses, Aaron, Solomon, David, Noah, Jesus, Jacob, Joseph........Muhammad (PBUT) were Muslims.

Islam is the original "Adi Dharma" which were revealed to humanity in stages by our Creator. The Qurán specified the name of this faith (As Islam).


.....................This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
[ Source: Al Qurán 5:3 ]


Prophet Muhammad (And Jesus son of Mary) never claimed to start a new religion but only shared what was reveled to them. For example, the Bible says......


Matthew 5:17

Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Matthew 5:17.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.


- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition


But modern "Christians" made so many changes to their own scriptures, it is almost impossible to see what Bible actually said by observing how the religion is followed today.


Muslims successfully able to preserve the original revelation which not only came up with some new laws but also corrected some "Mistakes" in the altered Bible. While it did not break off from the spirit of old revelations. Thou shall not steal has been preserved and honored in the Qurán as well.

Islam is known as "Din-Al-Fitra" or "The natural religion" to Arabic speakers.


I hold the view that what Prophet Mohammad did or said explicitly was within Islam, what he left out was outside Islam

>>>>>>>> Yes it is true. However we ought to remember that, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) recognized a lot of history thus a good deal of previous traditions as well. We still have to acknowledge ALL revelations of God (Taurat, Ingil, Zabur and the Qurán) to be Muslims. We ONLY reject the parts of old revelations that was later injected to it (But not part of the original revelation).


When he made the pilgrimage from Medina to Mecca in 632 CE and carried out the circumambulation of Kaaba, that was the beginning of Hajj in Islam.

>>>>>>>>> The tradition started with prophet Abraham/Ibraheem (PBUH). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) only taught us how to do it properly (As intended).


Pagans used to do the same ritual (as Kaaba used to be administered by Pagan leaders at that time) and before that Jews used to carry out that ritual.

>>>>>>> Pagans took over the Kaaba from followers of Abraham (PBUH) and added many pagan rituals to it. I do not think Jews ever set foot in Mecca.


go back to the Jewish roots originating from the Abraham/Ishmael period, some 2000 years earlier

>>>>>>>> Since you live in UK, feel free to double check on the information. Jews do NOT recognize prophet Ishmael (PBUH). They ONLY recognize prophet Issac (PBUH). Since mother of Ishmael was a dark toned woman, bene Israel thought she cannot be part of the "Chosen tribe" (AKA white people). This is when they started "Looking down to Arabs" and this ugly tradition goes on till today. It has a racist start but most of our "Politically correct" intellectuals prefers to skip that bit of history.


I was saying and probably Karen Armstrong was implying that Prophet Mohammad Islamicised the existing pagan rites of Hajj in 632 CE.

>>>>>>>>>>> I have no issues IF that was the statement but the rituals of hajj was NOT started by pagans. Rather they took over the holiest masjid from followers of Abraham and Ishmael (PBUT). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) ONLY re-established the "Original rituals" that was intended by God of Abraham (PBUH).


You must admit that practices which were prevalent in Judaism but did not get transcended (or accepted finally) to Islam cannot be called Islamic

>>>>>>>>> Actually fundamental practices were recognized by Muslims. However some practices were added later by people and those were NOT accepted by Islam. ALSO some practices were NOT revealed to Moses, Aaron or David at those times but later came to Jesus and Muhammad (PBUT). Those were added by Muslims. An example will be rights of minorities under Islam. Judaism does not have such concepts but our "Medina charter" shows that by the time of Muhammad (PBUH) Islam ceased to be intended to any tribe rather humanity, so prophet Muhammad (PBUH) established those laws as well.
 

For example, Prophet Mohammad while in Mecca (before his migration to Medina in 622 CE) asked his followers to pray two times a day. Only after his migration to Medina, under the influence of Jews, he changed his proclamation to pray five times a day and this became one of the pillars of Islam

>>>>>>>>> This is the first time I heard this bit of "History". The order to pray five times a days came after the miraj of the last messenger of Allah (PBUH).


When he asked his followers to face Kaaba and not Jerusalem, he had to face the wrath of the Jews in Medina and that precipitated his migration (first Hajj) to Mecca in 632 CE

>>>>>>>>>> I do not know the source of this history. However as per as I am concern, Jews in Medina were facing wrath of pagans regularly and initially they were given protection by Muhammad (Via Medina charter). So the order to face Mecca was going back to basics for Muslims. Jews did not have that much influence.


Praying towards Jerusalem was the practice before changing to Kaaba and that caused a clear cut separation between these two religions.

>>>>>>>>> While it is a historical fact. This is not how the change was perceived by Muslims. Jews, Muslims and Christians do follow the SAME God and we do as God wants us to do.

I hope I was some help.

May peace be unto you.



-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 10:26 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Dear QR,

Here we have bumped into a source of perennial conflict that had dogged Islam ever since. Which one do you call  Islamic and which one do you leave outside it, when Islam is avowedly the follow up of Judaism and Christianity?
I hold the view that what Prophet Mohammad did or said explicitly was within Islam, what he left out was outside Islam. When he made the pilgrimage from Medina to Mecca in 632 CE and carried out the circumambulation of Kaaba, that was the beginning of Hajj in Islam. Immediately prior to that, Pagans used to do the same ritual (as Kaaba used to be administered by Pagan leaders at that time) and before that Jews used to carry out that ritual. If you skip over 2000 years of pagan rites (prior to 632 CE) and go back to the Jewish roots originating from the Abraham/Ishmael period, some 2000 years earlier, then that is a different perception. I was saying and probably Karen Armstrong was implying that Prophet Mohammad Islamicised the existing pagan rites of Hajj in 632 CE.

You must admit that practices which were prevalent in Judaism but did not get transcended (or accepted finally) to Islam cannot be called Islamic. For example, Prophet Mohammad while in Mecca (before his migration to Medina in 622 CE) asked his followers to pray two times a day. Only after his migration to Medina, under the influence of Jews, he changed his proclamation to pray five times a day and this became one of the pillars of Islam. When he asked his followers to face Kaaba and not Jerusalem, he had to face the wrath of the Jews in Medina and that precipitated his migration (first Hajj) to Mecca in 632 CE. Praying towards Jerusalem was the practice before changing to Kaaba and that caused a clear cut separation between these two religions.

- Anisur Rahman 


From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 29 December 2013, 10:37
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Dear members,

I was talking to member Anisur Rahman (Who probably has a little more knowledge of Islamic history).

Now, we were talking about RELIGIOUS history!!

So it is ONLY natural (And LOGICAL) both (RELIGION and HISTORY) will come up in the conversation. I do understand coming from non-Muslim background, some of you do not understand some of these established facts. It is OK with me and I am only trying to share information about it. I have no intention to convert you here.

So take whatever make sense to you and you are welcome to disagree with the rest.

I do not have unlimited time to walk you through maturity with some of you and I am comfortable with that!!

May peace be unto all of you.



-----Original Message-----
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Look, any logical argument you would like to make with this QR will only bound to end up like the one that you are having right now. It is obscene and absurd without any limit. This man world knowledge does not go beyond his book and its some outrageous interpretations. He has been serving the forum with these idiotic answers without any critical thinking or analysis. Just simply ignore this man if you can as suggested by Dr. Das. Thank you.
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:34 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Mixture of history and myth make it difficult to filter the real truths. Was Prophet Adam the first Man? If he was, when and where was he born? Was technology advanced enough at that time to build a mosque? 

Where was Abraham born? In present time Iraq! About 2000 years before Christ was born? Is there any historical evidence that he went to Mecca to reestablish the mosque? What was the time gap between the first construction and the reconstruction? 

History must not be replaced with faith. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 26, 2013, at 4:36 AM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
Thank you for sharing.

 understand where you are coming from.

Actually a little more context is important to get the whole picture. According to some theologians The Masjid at Mecca was established by prophet Adam (PBUH). Later Abraham and his son Ishmael (PBUT) re-established it.  Both were well known for being strict monotheist. Later pagans took over the holy mosque and had some of the original practices (Like tawaf ) within that practice. In fact some of them used to be absolutely NUDE while doing that tawaf as well. Muslim historians noted that part as well.

Here is a little bit on it from an article....


Hajj and its rites were first ordained by Allah in the time of the Prophet lbrahim [Abraham] and he was the one who was entrusted by Allah to build the Kaba - the House of Allah - along with his son Ismail [Ishmael] at Makkah. Allah described the Kaba and its building as follows:
"And remember when We showed Ibrahim the site of the [Sacred] House [saying]: Associate not anything [in worship with Me and purify My House for those who circumambulate it [i.e. perform tawaaf] and those who stand up for prayer and those who bow down and make prostration [in prayer etc.]."
[Surah Al-Hajj 22:26]

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) established the original way of worshiping Allah (SWT) as envisioned by his forefather Abraham (PBUH). Jewish theologians considers Abraham as the "Originator" of Judaism (Which preached strict monotheism like Islam).

Therefore, calling hajj "Originated" from pagan origin is inaccurate but it was intended by our spiritual father Abraham to be worshiped to ONE TRUE GOD only. 

Therefore, I think re-prasing it would be more accurate. While it is true pagans took over the holy masjid at Mecca but they did not "Originate" the rituals of hajj, rather hajj rituals carries many original instructions of propohet Abraham (PBUH) even today.

Islam originated with the base ideal of monotheism and anyone who feels it's otherwise may miss the foundation of Islam (Thinking Islam ever allowed or accepted any concept about making partners with our Creator).

My two cents.....

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
On page 187 of the 'A History of God' by Karen Armstrong, she said, I quote, "In 630 the city of Mecca opened its gates to Mohammad who was able to take it without bloodshed. In 632, shortly before his death, he made what has been called the Farewell Pilgrimage in which he Islamised the old Arabian pagan rites of the hajj and made this pilgrimage, which was so dear to the Arabs, the fifth pillar of the religion." 

Remember that there were a large number of pagans in Arabia at that time and accepting pagan rites in Islam was to encourage them to the new religion, Islam. The Jews, however, stuck steadfastly to their religion. Even then quite a few Jewish rites had been assimilated in Islam, when Mohammad went to Medina to escape Qurayshi persecution of Muslims in Mecca.

I hope this will satisfy you. 

- Anis Rahman

From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 25 December 2013, 10:04
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Why not spend few lines to validate this. Since most theologians do not think about hajj this way. What did Karen say about hajj?

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: qrahman <qrahman@netscape.net>
Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Please look at Karen Armstrong's book on 'A History of God'. 

- AR


From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 23 December 2013, 10:14
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
For example, both of the Muslim Eids come from pagan tradition. Even Hajj comes from pagan tradition.

>>>>>>>>> How so? Kindly share your knowledge with us.

Shalom!

-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Quite informative.

Many monotheistic traditions, particularly celebrations, have pagan origins. For example, both of the Muslim Eids come from pagan tradition. Even Hajj comes from pagan tradition. It is of no surprise at all as paganism predates monotheistic religions, these religions borrowed some of the practices from pagan pantheism and passed them on as divine transcendence. 

- Anis Rahman  


From: Sudhir-Architect <ar_sudhirkumar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 22 December 2013, 15:13
Subject: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Christmas' Pagan Origins
Few people realize that the origins of a form of Christmas was pagan & celebrated in Europe long before anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.

No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ's birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?

The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.

In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honouring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers and dancers who travelled from house to house entertaining their neighbours. From this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.
In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice, known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured, the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year.
Huge Yule logs were burned in honour of the sun. The word Yule itself means "wheel," the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Holly berries were thought to be a food of the gods.

The tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again. Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and worshipping huge trees.

In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ's birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.

Christmas (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany, though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany.
 
Thanks & Regards,


Sudhir Srinivasan
B.Arch, MSc.CPM, Dip.ID, Dip.CAD, Dip.PM, Dip.LD
| Architect |












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Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins



Islamic history to a Muslim and a non-Muslim may not be same!

>>>>>>>>> Here is a simplified answer.

History is the SAME for everyone.

However knowledge about context and subtext (Of established history) differ from person to person. That is all has been said. Nothing "Communal".

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 9:22 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Mr. QR has now taken a communalist turn. He has now an absurd proposition: Islamic history to a Muslim and a non-Muslim may not be same! He is now playing a trick to have Dr. Anisur Rahman whom I consider to be a free thinker on his side on this issue. I will earnestly request Dr. Rahman to make a comment on this. 


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 29, 2013, at 4:37 AM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
Dear members,

I was talking to member Anisur Rahman (Who probably has a little more knowledge of Islamic history).

Now, we were talking about RELIGIOUS history!!

So it is ONLY natural (And LOGICAL) both (RELIGION and HISTORY) will come up in the conversation. I do understand coming from non-Muslim background, some of you do not understand some of these established facts. It is OK with me and I am only trying to share information about it. I have no intention to convert you here.

So take whatever make sense to you and you are welcome to disagree with the rest.

I do not have unlimited time to walk you through maturity with some of you and I am comfortable with that!!

May peace be unto all of you.



-----Original Message-----
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Look, any logical argument you would like to make with this QR will only bound to end up like the one that you are having right now. It is obscene and absurd without any limit. This man world knowledge does not go beyond his book and its some outrageous interpretations. He has been serving the forum with these idiotic answers without any critical thinking or analysis. Just simply ignore this man if you can as suggested by Dr. Das. Thank you.
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:34 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Mixture of history and myth make it difficult to filter the real truths. Was Prophet Adam the first Man? If he was, when and where was he born? Was technology advanced enough at that time to build a mosque? 

Where was Abraham born? In present time Iraq! About 2000 years before Christ was born? Is there any historical evidence that he went to Mecca to reestablish the mosque? What was the time gap between the first construction and the reconstruction? 

History must not be replaced with faith. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 26, 2013, at 4:36 AM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
Thank you for sharing.

 understand where you are coming from.

Actually a little more context is important to get the whole picture. According to some theologians The Masjid at Mecca was established by prophet Adam (PBUH). Later Abraham and his son Ishmael (PBUT) re-established it.  Both were well known for being strict monotheist. Later pagans took over the holy mosque and had some of the original practices (Like tawaf ) within that practice. In fact some of them used to be absolutely NUDE while doing that tawaf as well. Muslim historians noted that part as well.

Here is a little bit on it from an article....


Hajj and its rites were first ordained by Allah in the time of the Prophet lbrahim [Abraham] and he was the one who was entrusted by Allah to build the Kaba - the House of Allah - along with his son Ismail [Ishmael] at Makkah. Allah described the Kaba and its building as follows:
"And remember when We showed Ibrahim the site of the [Sacred] House [saying]: Associate not anything [in worship with Me and purify My House for those who circumambulate it [i.e. perform tawaaf] and those who stand up for prayer and those who bow down and make prostration [in prayer etc.]."
[Surah Al-Hajj 22:26]

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) established the original way of worshiping Allah (SWT) as envisioned by his forefather Abraham (PBUH). Jewish theologians considers Abraham as the "Originator" of Judaism (Which preached strict monotheism like Islam).

Therefore, calling hajj "Originated" from pagan origin is inaccurate but it was intended by our spiritual father Abraham to be worshiped to ONE TRUE GOD only. 

Therefore, I think re-prasing it would be more accurate. While it is true pagans took over the holy masjid at Mecca but they did not "Originate" the rituals of hajj, rather hajj rituals carries many original instructions of propohet Abraham (PBUH) even today.

Islam originated with the base ideal of monotheism and anyone who feels it's otherwise may miss the foundation of Islam (Thinking Islam ever allowed or accepted any concept about making partners with our Creator).

My two cents.....

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
On page 187 of the 'A History of God' by Karen Armstrong, she said, I quote, "In 630 the city of Mecca opened its gates to Mohammad who was able to take it without bloodshed. In 632, shortly before his death, he made what has been called the Farewell Pilgrimage in which he Islamised the old Arabian pagan rites of the hajj and made this pilgrimage, which was so dear to the Arabs, the fifth pillar of the religion." 

Remember that there were a large number of pagans in Arabia at that time and accepting pagan rites in Islam was to encourage them to the new religion, Islam. The Jews, however, stuck steadfastly to their religion. Even then quite a few Jewish rites had been assimilated in Islam, when Mohammad went to Medina to escape Qurayshi persecution of Muslims in Mecca.

I hope this will satisfy you. 

- Anis Rahman

From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 25 December 2013, 10:04
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Why not spend few lines to validate this. Since most theologians do not think about hajj this way. What did Karen say about hajj?

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: qrahman <qrahman@netscape.net>
Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins

 
Please look at Karen Armstrong's book on 'A History of God'. 

- AR



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****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] সৈয়দা জোহরা তাজউদ্দীনকে শ্রদ্ধাঞ্জলি : সাধারণ থেকে অসাধারণ ব্যক্তিত্বে উত্তরণ - মালেকা বেগম



Syeda Zohra Rajuddin and many others like her (Like late Ivy Rahman) made their contributions to BAL and Bangladesh in general. I like the fact articles have been written to these people who always put their Bangladesh's interest above of their person needs.

May we learn from their examples.

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: SyedAslam <Syed.Aslam3@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 8:28 am
Subject: [mukto-mona] সৈয়দা জোহরা তাজউদ্দীনকে শ্রদ্ধাঞ্জলি : সাধারণ থেকে অসাধারণ ব্যক্তিত্বে উত্তরণ - মালেকা বেগম

 

শ্রদ্ধাঞ্জলি

সাধারণ থেকে অসাধারণ ব্যক্তিত্বে উত্তরণ

মালেকা বেগম | আপডেট: ০০:০৩, ডিসেম্বর ২২, ২০১৩ প্রিন্ট সংস্করণ
সয়দ জহর তজউদদনজোহরা তাজউদ্দীন সশরীরে বাংলাদেশের আন্দোলনে-সংগ্রামে বিযুক্ত হয়ে গেলেন ২০ ডিসেম্বর, ২০১৩ থেকে। কিন্তু দীর্ঘ জীবনের (১৯৩২-২০১৩) রাজনৈতিক-মানবাধিকার-নারী আন্দোলন, স্বাধীনতাসংগ্রাম ও স্বাধীনতার পরবর্তী সময়ের গণতান্ত্রিক রাজনীতিতে সক্রিয়ভাবে যুক্ত থাকার গৌরবে তিনি স্মরণীয় থাকবেন বাংলাদেশের ইতিহাসে।
বাংলাদেশের মুক্তিযুদ্ধের সময়ে (১৯৭১) পরিচালিত মুজিবনগর সরকারের প্রধানমন্ত্রী প্রয়াত তাজউদ্দীন আহমদ তাঁর স্বামী। সাধারণ একজন গৃহিণীর জীবন থেকে চার সন্তানের মায়ের মাতৃত্ব থেকে জোহরা তাজউদ্দীন রাজনৈতিক পরিমণ্ডলে জনগণের নেতৃত্বে সমাদৃত হলেন। তাঁর এই রাজনৈতিক উত্তরণ ঘটেছে ১৯৬৮-৬৯ সালে। সামরিক আইন ভঙ্গ করে সে সময়ে পূর্ব পাকিস্তানে আন্দোলন-সংগ্রাম চলছিল। ১৯৬৯ সালের ১৯ জানুয়ারি ঢাকায় ছাত্রীদের মিছিলে পুলিশের লাঠিপেটা, ২০ জানুয়ারি ছাত্রনেতা আসাদকে গুলি করে হত্যা—এসব ঘটনার প্রতিবাদে সুফিয়া কামালের নেতৃত্বে ২৪ জানুয়ারি এবং ৭ ফেব্রুয়ারি বিশ্ববিদ্যালয়ের বটতলা থেকে নারীদের শোক মিছিল হাইকোর্টের সামনে দিয়ে নওয়াবপুর হয়ে বাহাদুর শাহ পার্কে যায়। সেসব মিছিলে জোহরা তাজউদ্দীন যোগ দিয়েছিলেন। রাজবন্দীদের মুক্তির দাবিতে নারীসমাজের বিবৃতি সংগ্রহ করার জন্য আমরা কয়েকজন সে সময়ে রাজবন্দী সাহায্য কমিটির যুগ্ম আহ্বায়ক জোহরা তাজউদ্দীনের ধানমন্ডির বাসায় গিয়েছিলাম। রান্নাঘর থেকে শাড়ির আঁচলে হাত মুছতে মুছতে বেরিয়ে এসে তিনি আমাদের আপ্যায়ন করালেন। তাজউদ্দীন আহমদ তখন রাজবন্দী ছিলেন ১৯৬৬ সালের ৮ মে থেকে। রাজবন্দী স্বামীর সঙ্গে কারাগারে আটক সব রাজবন্দীর মুক্তির দাবিতে আমাদের অনুরোধে বিনা দ্বিধায় তিনি বিবৃতিতে নিজের নাম লিখলেন। ষাটের দশকের রাজবন্দী মুক্তি আন্দোলনের সঙ্গে যুক্ত হয়ে অন্দরমহল থেকে তিনি জনগণের কাতারে শামিল হয়েছিলেন। আর থামেননি। মৃত্যুর আগ পর্যন্ত তিনি আওয়ামী লীগের সভাপতিমণ্ডলীর সদস্য ছিলেন।
আওয়ামী লীগের সংগ্রামী নেতার স্ত্রী হিসেবে প্রথমত তিনি রাজবন্দী মুক্তি আন্দোলনের এবং নারী নেতা-কর্মীদের আহ্বানে সাড়া দিয়েছিলেন। কিন্তু সেই ব্যক্তিপরিচয়ের গণ্ডি থেকে অচিরেই তিনি বেরিয়ে এলেন। নিজ আদর্শিক সংগ্রামের বলিষ্ঠতায় রাজনীতিবিদ এবং নারীনেত্রী পরিচয়ে সবার প্রিয় 'রাজনৈতিক নেত্রী' এবং 'জোহরা আপা' হলেন।
তাঁর একান্ত ঘনিষ্ঠ বন্ধু ছিলেন নূরজাহান মুরশিদ এবং নুরুন্নাহার সামাদ। আওয়ামী লীগের রাজনীতিতে প্রথম দিকে জোহরা তাজউদ্দীন নেতৃত্বে যাননি। ১৯৬৯ সালে রাজনৈতিক দলমত ও আদর্শের ঊর্ধ্বে পূর্ব পাকিস্তানের বিভিন্ন শ্রেণী ও পেশার, নানা স্তরের মানুষ নিজ নিজ দাবিতে সংগ্রাম পরিষদ গঠন করেছিল। সারা দেশে তখন সামরিক শাসনবিরোধী স্বাধিকারের আন্দোলন জোরদার ছিল। সে সময় রাজনৈতিক দলমত ও আদর্শের ঊর্ধ্বে সব শ্রেণী ও স্তরের নারীদের সংগঠিত প্রয়াসে গঠিত হয়েছিল 'পূর্ব পাকিস্তান মহিলা সংগ্রাম পরিষদ'। জোহরা আপা সানন্দে এই মহিলা সংগ্রাম পরিষদের সদস্য হয়েছিলেন।
সুফিয়া কামালের নেতৃত্বে আহ্বায়িকা হিসেবে মহিলা সংগ্রাম পরিষদ গঠন করতে গিয়ে অন্যান্য ছাত্রনেত্রী যথা ফওজিয়া মোসলেম, আয়শা খানম, মাখদুমা নার্গিস, কাজী মমতা হেনা, মুনিরা আক্তার, ফরিদা আক্তার প্রমুখের যথেষ্ট সাহায্য পেয়েছি। মহিলা সংগ্রাম পরিষদের বিভিন্ন সদস্য যথা জোবেদা খাতুন চৌধুরী, বদরুন্নেসা আহমদ, জোহরা তাজউদ্দীন, কামরুন নাহার লাইলী, লায়লা সামাদ, নুরুন্নাহার সামাদ, আমেনা আহমেদ, নূরজাহান মুরশিদ, সেলিনা বানু, নুরজাহান কাদের, সেলিনা খালেক, হেনা দাস, সারা আলী, রাজিয়া বানু প্রমুখ নেত্রীকে সম্মত করিয়ে দলমত-নির্বিশেষে একটি সংগ্রামী নারীমঞ্চে সংগঠিত করার কাজে উল্লিখিত ছাত্রনেত্রীরা সহায়তা করেছিলেন। আমাদের সবার সঙ্গে কমিটির সব নেত্রী এবং বিশেষত, জোহরা তাজউদ্দীনের সম্পর্ক ছিল খুবই খোলামেলা ও ঘনিষ্ঠ।
এখনো সেসব দিনের কথা মনে পড়ে। উদার হাস্যোৎ ফুল্ল ছিলেন তিনি। কথা বলতেন হাসিতে প্রাণ ভরিয়ে। দিলখোলা প্রাণবন্ত উচ্ছলতা নিয়ে রাজনীতির কথা বলতেন তখনকার ৩৭ বছর বয়সের জোহরা আপা। কখনো সেই হাস্যরসদীপ্ত বিশেষ বাচনভঙ্গিটি তিনি হারিয়ে ফেলেননি। নারী আন্দোলনের কমিটি সভায়, সেমিনারে এবং পথসভায় গুরুত্বপূর্ণ বিষয়েও তিনি সহজবোধ্য সাবলীল ভাষায় বলতেন। সব সদস্যার সঙ্গে তিনি অন্তরঙ্গভাবে মিশতেন। ১৯৬৯ সালে তিনি যেমন ছিলেন সহজ অন্তরঙ্গ, তেমনি সহজ রয়ে গিয়েছেন জীবনের শেষ দিনগুলোতেও। তাঁর সঙ্গে ২০০০ সালের আগে পর্যন্ত নিয়মিত, অনিয়মিত যতবার দেখা হয়েছে কাছে টেনে নিয়েছেন উৎ ফুল্ল হাসিতে পরম স্নেহে। এরপর খুব বেশি দেখা হয়নি। যে দু-একবার দেখা করেছি ২০১৩ সালে; তখনো সেই আপ্যায়ন জানিয়েছেন গভীর আন্তরিকতায়। মনে রেখেছেন নারী আন্দোলনের একসময়ের তরুণ—পরবর্তী সময়ে প্রবীণ সবাইকে। সুফিয়া কামালকে হারানোর তীব্র দুঃখ জানিয়েছেন। নারীনেত্রী বেলা নবীর অকালমৃত্যুর খবরেও তিনি বিচলিত হয়েছেন। শোকে-দুঃখে-বেদনায় তিনি শোকাকুল হতেন।
আজ তাঁকে হারিয়ে আমরা শোকাকুল। নারী অধিকার বিষয়ে তাঁর হূদয় উৎ সারিত কথাগুলো ছিল দলীয় রাজনীতির ঊর্ধ্বে। মানবাধিকারের দৃষ্টিকোণ থেকে নারীর বিরুদ্ধে সংঘটিত সব বৈষম্য-নির্যাতনের বিষয়ে তিনি বক্তব্য দিতেন। তিনি যখন ১৯৭২ সালে বাংলাদেশ মহিলা পরিষদের সহসভানেত্রী ছিলেন, তখন একই সঙ্গে সহসভানেত্রী পদে সম্মত হয়েছিলেন নূরজাহান মুরশিদ এবং নুরুন্নাহার সামাদ। নূরজাহান মুরশিদ আওয়ামী লীগের দলীয় নেত্রী ছিলেন। জোহরা তাজউদ্দীন এবং নুরুন্নাহার সামাদ ছিলেন আওয়ামী লীগের দুজন প্রখ্যাত মন্ত্রী যথাক্রমে তাজউদ্দীন আহমদ এবং আবদুস সামাদ আজাদের সহধর্মিণী। সরকারের জ্যেষ্ঠ মন্ত্রীর স্ত্রী হওয়া সত্ত্বেও তাঁরা দুজনই দলনিরপেক্ষ নারী অধিকারের দাবিতে সোচ্চার ছিলেন। তাঁদের দুজনের সঙ্গেই এসব ক্ষেত্রে দলীয় রাজনীতির বাধা প্রসঙ্গে কথা বলতাম। তাঁরা বলেছেন, তাজউদ্দীন আহমদ ও আবদুস সামাদ আজাদ ব্যক্তিগতভাবে তাঁদের স্ত্রীদের নারী আন্দোলন ও নারী সংগঠনের কাজ বিষয়ে কোনো নিয়ন্ত্রণ চাপিয়ে দেননি। বাংলাদেশ মহিলা পরিষদের ভূমিকাকে তাঁরা প্রশংসা করতেন।
তবে একবারের অভিজ্ঞতার কথা বলছি। ১৯৭২ সালে মঙ্গোলিয়ায় আয়োজিত আফ্রো-এশীয় মহিলা সম্মেলনে বাংলাদেশ মহিলা পরিষদের প্রতিনিধি হিসেবে জোহরা তাজউদ্দীন এবং ডা. ফওজিয়া মোসলেম যোগ দিয়েছিলেন। জোহরা তাজউদ্দীন সম্মেলনে বক্তব্য দেবেন। আন্তর্জাতিক নারী ফেডারেশনের সঙ্গে চীন নারী সংগঠনের রাজনৈতিক সমঝোতা না থাকায় সম্মেলনে চীনবিরোধী কথা যেন না তোলা হয় সেই বিষয়ে মন্ত্রী তাজউদ্দীন আহমদ আমাকে সতর্ক-অনুরোধ জানিয়েছিলেন। সংগঠনের পক্ষ থেকে তাঁকে বলেছিলাম, যদি আপত্তি থাকে তাহলে বক্তব্যটি ডা. ফওজিয়া দেবেন। আমরা বক্তব্য বদলাব না। সরকারের পররাষ্ট্রনীতি অনুযায়ী চীনের সঙ্গে সৌহার্দ্য গড়ে তোলার প্রচেষ্টা চলছিল তখন। জোহরা তাজউদ্দীন ঢাকায় ফিরে এসে জানালেন, তিনি সুকৌশলে মহিলা পরিষদের বক্তব্য উপস্থাপন করেছেন।
জোহরা আপা বাংলাদেশ মহিলা পরিষদের একনিষ্ঠ সহায়ক ছিলেন। ১৯৭২-৭৫ পর্যন্ত তিনি ছিলেন সংগঠনের আন্তরিক সহযোদ্ধা। ১৯৭২ সালে প্রথম বার্ষিক সম্মেলনে বাংলাদেশ মহিলা পরিষদের আমন্ত্রণে যখন আন্তর্জাতিক বিভিন্ন নারীনেত্রী এসেছিলেন সোভিয়েত ইউনিয়ন, অস্ট্রেলিয়া ও ভারত থেকে; তখন তিনি তাঁদের আপ্যায়নের জন্য, থাকার জন্য সব ব্যবস্থা করে দিয়েছিলেন। সম্মেলন করা, সদস্যদের যাতায়াত ব্যয়, অফিস খরচ, জেলা সফর করার যাবতীয় অর্থ-সাহায্য তহবিল গড়ে তুলতে তিনি সহায়তা করেছেন। সে জন্য তাঁর প্রতি আমরা কৃতজ্ঞতা জানিয়েছি, জানাচ্ছি এবং জানাব।
জোহরা আপার উদ্বিগ্ন আহ্বানে ১৯৭৫ সালের ২, ৩ ও ৪ নভেম্বর তাঁর সঙ্গে সকাল-সন্ধ্যা ঢাকার নানা জায়গায় ঘুরেছি। কারাগারে বন্দী আওয়ামী লীগের চার নেতা তাজউদ্দীন আহমদ, সৈয়দ নজরুল ইসলাম, কামরুজ্জামান ও এম মনসুর আলীকে নৃশংসভাবে হত্যা করার খবর তখন দেশের সর্বত্র ছড়িয়ে পড়েছে। ১৯৭৫ সালের ১৫ আগস্ট নৃশংসভাবে সপরিবারে বঙ্গবন্ধু শেখ মুজিবুর রহমানের হত্যাকাণ্ডের কয়েক মাসের মধ্যে চার নেতার এই হত্যাকাণ্ড দেশকে এবং দল হিসেবে আওয়ামী লীগকে গভীর সংকটে ফেলে।
সে সময় থেকে জোহরা আপাকে ও শোকসন্তপ্ত পরিবারের সবাইকে কাছ থেকে দেখেছি। রাজনৈতিক কর্মকাণ্ডে জোহরা আপা বিনা দ্বিধায় যুক্ত হলেন। দলের কান্ডারি হয়ে সেই দুর্যোগের সময়ে জোহরা আপা ১৯৭৭ সালে আওয়ামী লীগের আহ্বায়ক নিযুক্ত হয়েছিলেন। তাঁর রাজনৈতিক পরিপক্বতা, বিদগ্ধতা রাজনৈতিক পরিমণ্ডলে সুস্থ গণতান্ত্রিক ধারার বিষয়ে উজ্জীবিত করে তুলেছিল। আজ খুব কম রাজনীতিবিদকেই আমরা তাঁর অনুসারী হিসেবে পাচ্ছি। সে দুঃখ মনে রেখেই জোহরা আপার প্রতি আন্তরিক শ্রদ্ধা জানাচ্ছি।
বাবা-মায়ের স্নেহবঞ্চিত রিপি, রিমি, মিমি ও সোহেলের অপূরণীয় শোকের সাগরে আমরাও অশ্রুপাত করছি।
মালেকা বেগম: নারীনেত্রী। অধ্যাপক, সেন্ট্রাল উইমেন্স ইউনিভার্সিটি, ঢাকা।
Also Read:
সত্যের সংগ্রাম : শারমিন আহমদ



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Re: [mukto-mona] Gay mathematician gets royal pardon



I just did a Google search on the matter and found out that at least two of the British Prime Ministers, namely, Churchill and Heath were alleged to be gay.  Also recently , the deputy premier of the presently serving Govt. was alleged in Canada looking for prostitutes.  I suppose, Dr. Rahman has done no homework before claiming British politicians as highly moral species.


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 4:09 PM, ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com> wrote:
 

No British Prime Minister had ever any illegal sexual activities; but can you say that of American Presidents? There was an American President, by the name Bill Clinton, who used to have sexual activities with his internee in the White House, am I right?

- AR


From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 27 December 2013, 23:46

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Gay mathematician gets royal pardon

 
You know why the Sun did not set in the British empire? As the saying went, even God was afraid of being sodomized by the Brits in the dark!

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 27, 2013, at 8:20 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
So, Brits have perfect excuse to be bad and unapologetic because Americans are even worse? That sounds to me very childish.
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Thursday, December 26, 2013 10:00 PM, ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com> wrote:
 
One must realise that Alan Turing broke the law as it was in existence in 1952. So he was convicted and castrated, not imprisoned, as per his wish. 

Now 50 or so years later that law has been changed and Alan Turing, a brilliant British mathematician, had been granted pardon retrospectively and it is the most decent thing the British government and the British Royalty can do.

The same high standards and magnanimity cannot be assigned to America. When scores of people from across the globe had been kidnapped and imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay on suspicion of terrorism and many of them had been found to be totally innocent, American government did not come up and apologised to them and compensated them for the injustice. When millions of blacks had been mistreated, segregated and denied opportunities in 1950s and 1960s, American government did not compensate them. 

So, one should not throw stone while living in a glass house!

- AR 
 
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 26 December 2013, 10:49
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Gay mathematician gets royal pardon

 
   I really think Sukhamay hit on the right point .  What 'pardon'?  --  The British Govt. should be paying compensation to Alan Turin . . .


From: subain1@yahoo.com
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 15:39:51 -0800
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Gay mathematician gets royal pardon

 

I have serious problems with the words, "pardon" and "amnesty", when they are applied to victims and fighters of injustice.
 
Alan Turing did not do any crime, and he did not need any 'pardon'. The British government did a gross injustice to him in 1952 by castrating him. The British government and their royalty are the ones that needed pardoning by him (his departed soul or his family), not the other way around. Obviously, the British have not yet gotten civilized enough to seek an unconditional pardon from him, and are talking the nonsense of pardoning him instead.
 
SuBain
 
=====================================
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2013 9:33 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Gay mathematician gets royal pardon










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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
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