Banner Advertiser

Thursday, November 28, 2013

[mukto-mona] কবিতাঃ নগর নটীর খেরোখাতা



প্রিয় মুক্তমনা।
আমি একজন অতিথি লেখক (লেখিকা শব্দে আপত্তি আছে) ।
মুক্তমনায় প্রকাশের জন্য একটি কবিতা পাঠালাম। আপনাদের মনোনীত হলে, আশা করি প্রকাশ করবেন।
ধান্যবাদ।

রেবেকা রাহমান।

নগর নটীর খেরোখাতা

রেবেকা রাহমান

সস দিয়ে মুরগি ঝাল বাদাম 
ফালি ফালি লেবু বরফ কুচি 
ফরাসি সৌরভ সারা ঘরময় 
লোকটার জন্য সান্ধ্য আয়োজন ...

নরম আলয় ধিরে ধিরে 
চলতে থকে তার যামনেশা 
তারপর কাম ইচ্ছায় পেয়ে বসে 
অস্থির হাতে পাপী শরীর থেকে 
খুলতে থাকে খয়েরি লেবাস .... 

মিটে গেলে শারীরিক দায় 
খবিশটা কচ্ছপের মতো পড়ে থাকে ...

মাঝ রাতের শিশিরের স্পর্শে 
শরীর ভিজিয়ে 
গ্লানিমুক্ত হই ...............



__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___

[mukto-mona] Meeting with BJP leadership on community agenda



Untitled Document

National Economic Forum for Muslims
306, Rohit House, Tolstoy Marg, New Delhi - 110 001
Ph: 011-23731129, 23353406 Fax: 011-23731130
Email: nefm06@gmail.com

Dr. MJ Khan
Convener

                                                        Dated: 27 Nov, 2013

Sub: Meeting with BJP leadership on community agenda

Muslim community in India is undergoing difficult times for a fairly long time. The issues before the community range from security to profiling and increasing marginalization in social and political spheres to declining share in education, jobs and economic opportunities.

As the country is preparing to go the next general elections and elect a new Government, it offers an opportunity to the community to effectively engage and articulate its concerns before the major political parties and get the agenda included in the manifestos, which later forms the basis for broad direction to Governmental policies.  

In this context and as per the recommendations of the IMRC Meet on June 9, 2013, I am writing this mail to the distinguished members of the community to invite them for a dialogue with the BJP leadership to exchange views on various issues of concerns, share perspective and discuss the agenda. Some people in the community take the view that we should not talk to BJP. The dialogue deficit in a democracy has not augured well for minorities anywhere in the world. I therefore, feel that we must stay in dialogue with all major political parties and discuss our concerns and agenda; and formulate considered political stand.

I have discussed with the BJP President, Mr. Rajnath Singh and hosting a meeting on 30 Nov, 2013 from 2 – 5 pm at the Constitution Club, New Delhi. I understand Dr. Sheeba Aslam Fehmi is arranging similar meetings with the Congress and CPM in the 2nd week of Dec 2013.

Given your understanding of the issues and concerns for the community, I would appreciate if you could join the meet along with your colleagues and participate in the discussions. A line of confirmation along with names shall be appreciated.

Thanking you and with regards

Dr. MJ Khan
9868506668
india.imrc@gmail.com  
india.mjkhan@gmail.com



__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques



Let me address some of the points made over the last couple of days by quite a few people in this forum.
 
I have no problem banning all religions. As I wrote before on this thread, I think Angola has done it wrong particularly because it banned only one religion.
 
While I can see that most religions, especially the ones that are based upon fearing what is known as God, have a lot of stupidity and hatred in them, I think the real problem is with people. If people had the mind of reasoning and thinking freely, the religious nonsense and hatred would be rendered irrelevant, people would naturally give up religions. The modern educated societies and nations are actually doing quite a bit of that. If we look around the developed world, it would be obvious that atheists and agnostics constitute an increasing percentage of the population. A lot of Christians in the developed countries do not try to follow the Bible as much as millions of Muslims try to follow the Koran, for example. Religion as a commodity is sold a lot more in uneducated and backward societies than in educated and advancing societies.
 
I think a methodical removal of religious nonsense, hatred and injustice is what needs to happen in this world. That process has to begin with separating religion from the state, and end with making it absolutely personal.
 
For example, I do not see any problem if someone thinks he can go to heaven by praying to the goddess Kali or to Allah. However, the civilized world should not tolerate anything like people thinking, and acting upon that thought, that they can go to heaven by killing themselves for the purpose of establishing their religion on Earth, for example.
 
Society/state should not meddle in other people's religion, only if religion is kept at an absolute personal level. When the practice of one's religion goes against other people's human and citizenship rights, the phrase of 'meddling in other people's religion' should be trashed; the society/state/world should do whatever is needed to stop such practices of religions. 
 
Well, that is all for now.
 
SuBain 
=================================
 


__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques



Retaliation in banning religions by various antagonistic countries could not be that bad. Ideally the countries should ban religions amicably. But that is not practicable. So banning in retaliation is the next best thing.

- A Rahman


From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 28 November 2013, 22:41
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 
I am afraid Dr. Jiten Roy might have identified me as a follower nonviolent philosophy of Gandhi which I am not. My point is: Angola has banned Islam, so another country will have to retaliate by banning Christianity---that cannot be a wise step. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 28, 2013, at 3:22 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
"Retaliating a bad thing with another bad thing is not sensible."

This is an insane thought; absolutely, insane.

Jiten Roy



On Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:06 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
1. I vote for Dr. Sukhamaya Bain. "Tumi odhom boliya ami uttom hoibo naa keno?" Retaliating a bad thing with another bad thing is not sensible. The chain reaction can be dangerous for the world.
2. The news on Angola banning Islam and destroying mosques still seems to be controversial to some extent. The state religion of Angola is Christianity. Like any other religion, Christianity is not monolithic. It has so many denominations. Angola is dominated by the Catholics and Muslims constitute only 1% of the Angolan population. The recent move may be more about establishing constitutionally Catholic supremacy in the country in which Islam along with dozens of other religious groups and cults have become unfortunate victims. 
3. Banning religion is not new in history. King Ajatashatru prohibited practice of Buddhism in his kingdom (read the poem Poojarini by Rabindranath). We have witnessed all sorts of madness in the middle ages in the Christian and Muslim world. Communist countries banned religions as a matter of principle, not out of hatred. 
4. What do we see now? Is it any thing different from what has happened in Angola recently? Look at Saudi Arabia. Look at Pakistan. There are Islamist groups in Bangladesh who are out there to ban a particular sect in Islam.
5. In my opinion the world would have been better without organized religions. But that world is almost a mission impossible. Prof. Ahmad Sharif, a lifelong confirmed atheist, once wrote that man would never quit religion (I read his article in 1969 or 1970). 
6. Banning organized religions may be impossible, but banning politics in the name of religion may not be an unrealistic proposition. I feel this is urgent in Bangladesh.         


On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 8:45 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
@Sukhamoy Bain

Yes, I understand why you find everything wrong in my statement. You live in a different state of mind than I.

You said, "
I think good/just people should remain good/just and try their best to discourage barbaric/unjust behavior everywhere."
 
This type of mindset is not only impractical, but also could be dangerous in some situations. Your mindset may be good in an ideal world, but not in the forever complex real world. Also, such line of thinking has been proven worthless in the context of religious freedom. As you know, very little has changed in terms of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic societies in the Middle East over thousands of years. So, just calling them barbaric states will not stop religious discrimination anywhere. 

Jiten Roy



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 7:15 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Well said, Mr. Rahman! You are spot on!
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 6:18 PM, ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com> wrote:
 
I can see that Mr. Bain is holding the high moral ground on religion and hoping that others will emulate him. But the fundamental question is, what is it that is causing violation of high moral standards in some countries? Is it not the religion? Religion is inherently tribal and sectarian. Each religion claims to be the best and tries to attract more people into it. Sometimes it is done overtly - by banning other competing religions in its territory as in Saudi Arabia and Iran - and sometimes covertly by offering humanitarian aid, support etc and converting the people. The ultimate aim is the same - expand your empire overtly or covertly. In fulfilling this universal aim, it is inevitable that there will be conflicts and we have seen those conflicts over the centuries and we are witnessing them now.

So, is it not a good idea that this root cause of conflict is eliminated? Religion had its time and usefulness when civic codes and statehood were not in existence. We now live in a different world where religious hegemony is not only in conflict with each other but also with the state. As we cannot get rid of the state, we would rather get rid of religion.

- A Rahman 

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 27 November 2013, 2:13
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 
I think the line of thoughts below is almost all wrong.
 
Let me say it clearly again, 'Saudi Arabia is a barbaric state' is no good reason for any good/just person/nation to turn barbaric.
 
Now, does that mean that a just person/nation should accept Saudi Arabia to remain barbaric? NO.
 
I think good/just people should remain good/just and try their best to discourage barbaric/unjust behavior everywhere. They should also penalize/fight hatred and injustice where needed. Fighting the barbarians with "justice for all" philosophy is not barbarian by any means.
 
It is very unfortunate that for short-term and short-sighted interests, and for their mostly perceived weakness, many otherwise decent people/nations accept, tolerate, and even encourage unjust and barbaric behavior in people and nations.
 
Let me give an example from the Indian subcontinent. In India, the so-called secular forces are too short-sighted and idiotic; they do not seek just one set of laws (uniform civil code) for all citizens. The uniform civil code, which is a serious secular phenomenon, gets hijacked by the Hindutwa fanatics. What a shame!
 
Now talking about some realities, I can see that in some places in the world, one group of hate-mongers seems to be better in fighting another group of hate-mongers. That reality, to me, is too unfortunate and wrong. The fight really should be between the hate-mongers and people who do not hate; and it should be executed with utmost conviction by people who do not hate. Until this present reality is changed, I do not see much hope in this world.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
========================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 

You said Saudi Arabia, being a barbarian state, can do such things, but that should not be repeated by others. Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia is very influential world power; whatever they do, many others emulate. There are many other countries, where  persecution of religious minorities are rampant. Also, as you know, millions of people have no problem with Saudi religious practices. They will support it until they are subjected to such discrimination, as is the case in Angola.

You must have noticed that – there are no outcries over such unjust practice in Saudi Arabia also. That could be because most people love to take the moral high ground, as you did. They people have mindset of "we are not one of them." The result is – such practices have been going on unabated for thousands of year in Saudi Arabia.




__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques



I am afraid Dr. Jiten Roy might have identified me as a follower nonviolent philosophy of Gandhi which I am not. My point is: Angola has banned Islam, so another country will have to retaliate by banning Christianity---that cannot be a wise step. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 28, 2013, at 3:22 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

"Retaliating a bad thing with another bad thing is not sensible."

This is an insane thought; absolutely, insane.

Jiten Roy



On Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:06 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
1. I vote for Dr. Sukhamaya Bain. "Tumi odhom boliya ami uttom hoibo naa keno?" Retaliating a bad thing with another bad thing is not sensible. The chain reaction can be dangerous for the world.
2. The news on Angola banning Islam and destroying mosques still seems to be controversial to some extent. The state religion of Angola is Christianity. Like any other religion, Christianity is not monolithic. It has so many denominations. Angola is dominated by the Catholics and Muslims constitute only 1% of the Angolan population. The recent move may be more about establishing constitutionally Catholic supremacy in the country in which Islam along with dozens of other religious groups and cults have become unfortunate victims. 
3. Banning religion is not new in history. King Ajatashatru prohibited practice of Buddhism in his kingdom (read the poem Poojarini by Rabindranath). We have witnessed all sorts of madness in the middle ages in the Christian and Muslim world. Communist countries banned religions as a matter of principle, not out of hatred. 
4. What do we see now? Is it any thing different from what has happened in Angola recently? Look at Saudi Arabia. Look at Pakistan. There are Islamist groups in Bangladesh who are out there to ban a particular sect in Islam.
5. In my opinion the world would have been better without organized religions. But that world is almost a mission impossible. Prof. Ahmad Sharif, a lifelong confirmed atheist, once wrote that man would never quit religion (I read his article in 1969 or 1970). 
6. Banning organized religions may be impossible, but banning politics in the name of religion may not be an unrealistic proposition. I feel this is urgent in Bangladesh.         


On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 8:45 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
@Sukhamoy Bain

Yes, I understand why you find everything wrong in my statement. You live in a different state of mind than I.

You said, "
I think good/just people should remain good/just and try their best to discourage barbaric/unjust behavior everywhere."
 
This type of mindset is not only impractical, but also could be dangerous in some situations. Your mindset may be good in an ideal world, but not in the forever complex real world. Also, such line of thinking has been proven worthless in the context of religious freedom. As you know, very little has changed in terms of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic societies in the Middle East over thousands of years. So, just calling them barbaric states will not stop religious discrimination anywhere. 

Jiten Roy



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 7:15 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Well said, Mr. Rahman! You are spot on!
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 6:18 PM, ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com> wrote:
 
I can see that Mr. Bain is holding the high moral ground on religion and hoping that others will emulate him. But the fundamental question is, what is it that is causing violation of high moral standards in some countries? Is it not the religion? Religion is inherently tribal and sectarian. Each religion claims to be the best and tries to attract more people into it. Sometimes it is done overtly - by banning other competing religions in its territory as in Saudi Arabia and Iran - and sometimes covertly by offering humanitarian aid, support etc and converting the people. The ultimate aim is the same - expand your empire overtly or covertly. In fulfilling this universal aim, it is inevitable that there will be conflicts and we have seen those conflicts over the centuries and we are witnessing them now.

So, is it not a good idea that this root cause of conflict is eliminated? Religion had its time and usefulness when civic codes and statehood were not in existence. We now live in a different world where religious hegemony is not only in conflict with each other but also with the state. As we cannot get rid of the state, we would rather get rid of religion.

- A Rahman 

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 27 November 2013, 2:13
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 
I think the line of thoughts below is almost all wrong.
 
Let me say it clearly again, 'Saudi Arabia is a barbaric state' is no good reason for any good/just person/nation to turn barbaric.
 
Now, does that mean that a just person/nation should accept Saudi Arabia to remain barbaric? NO.
 
I think good/just people should remain good/just and try their best to discourage barbaric/unjust behavior everywhere. They should also penalize/fight hatred and injustice where needed. Fighting the barbarians with "justice for all" philosophy is not barbarian by any means.
 
It is very unfortunate that for short-term and short-sighted interests, and for their mostly perceived weakness, many otherwise decent people/nations accept, tolerate, and even encourage unjust and barbaric behavior in people and nations.
 
Let me give an example from the Indian subcontinent. In India, the so-called secular forces are too short-sighted and idiotic; they do not seek just one set of laws (uniform civil code) for all citizens. The uniform civil code, which is a serious secular phenomenon, gets hijacked by the Hindutwa fanatics. What a shame!
 
Now talking about some realities, I can see that in some places in the world, one group of hate-mongers seems to be better in fighting another group of hate-mongers. That reality, to me, is too unfortunate and wrong. The fight really should be between the hate-mongers and people who do not hate; and it should be executed with utmost conviction by people who do not hate. Until this present reality is changed, I do not see much hope in this world.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
========================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 

You said Saudi Arabia, being a barbarian state, can do such things, but that should not be repeated by others. Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia is very influential world power; whatever they do, many others emulate. There are many other countries, where  persecution of religious minorities are rampant. Also, as you know, millions of people have no problem with Saudi religious practices. They will support it until they are subjected to such discrimination, as is the case in Angola.

You must have noticed that – there are no outcries over such unjust practice in Saudi Arabia also. That could be because most people love to take the moral high ground, as you did. They people have mindset of "we are not one of them." The result is – such practices have been going on unabated for thousands of year in Saudi Arabia.


__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques



"Retaliating a bad thing with another bad thing is not sensible."

This is an insane thought; absolutely, insane.

Jiten Roy



On Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:06 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
1. I vote for Dr. Sukhamaya Bain. "Tumi odhom boliya ami uttom hoibo naa keno?" Retaliating a bad thing with another bad thing is not sensible. The chain reaction can be dangerous for the world.
2. The news on Angola banning Islam and destroying mosques still seems to be controversial to some extent. The state religion of Angola is Christianity. Like any other religion, Christianity is not monolithic. It has so many denominations. Angola is dominated by the Catholics and Muslims constitute only 1% of the Angolan population. The recent move may be more about establishing constitutionally Catholic supremacy in the country in which Islam along with dozens of other religious groups and cults have become unfortunate victims. 
3. Banning religion is not new in history. King Ajatashatru prohibited practice of Buddhism in his kingdom (read the poem Poojarini by Rabindranath). We have witnessed all sorts of madness in the middle ages in the Christian and Muslim world. Communist countries banned religions as a matter of principle, not out of hatred. 
4. What do we see now? Is it any thing different from what has happened in Angola recently? Look at Saudi Arabia. Look at Pakistan. There are Islamist groups in Bangladesh who are out there to ban a particular sect in Islam.
5. In my opinion the world would have been better without organized religions. But that world is almost a mission impossible. Prof. Ahmad Sharif, a lifelong confirmed atheist, once wrote that man would never quit religion (I read his article in 1969 or 1970). 
6. Banning organized religions may be impossible, but banning politics in the name of religion may not be an unrealistic proposition. I feel this is urgent in Bangladesh.         


On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 8:45 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
@Sukhamoy Bain

Yes, I understand why you find everything wrong in my statement. You live in a different state of mind than I.

You said, "
I think good/just people should remain good/just and try their best to discourage barbaric/unjust behavior everywhere."
 
This type of mindset is not only impractical, but also could be dangerous in some situations. Your mindset may be good in an ideal world, but not in the forever complex real world. Also, such line of thinking has been proven worthless in the context of religious freedom. As you know, very little has changed in terms of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic societies in the Middle East over thousands of years. So, just calling them barbaric states will not stop religious discrimination anywhere. 

Jiten Roy



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 7:15 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Well said, Mr. Rahman! You are spot on!
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 6:18 PM, ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com> wrote:
 
I can see that Mr. Bain is holding the high moral ground on religion and hoping that others will emulate him. But the fundamental question is, what is it that is causing violation of high moral standards in some countries? Is it not the religion? Religion is inherently tribal and sectarian. Each religion claims to be the best and tries to attract more people into it. Sometimes it is done overtly - by banning other competing religions in its territory as in Saudi Arabia and Iran - and sometimes covertly by offering humanitarian aid, support etc and converting the people. The ultimate aim is the same - expand your empire overtly or covertly. In fulfilling this universal aim, it is inevitable that there will be conflicts and we have seen those conflicts over the centuries and we are witnessing them now.

So, is it not a good idea that this root cause of conflict is eliminated? Religion had its time and usefulness when civic codes and statehood were not in existence. We now live in a different world where religious hegemony is not only in conflict with each other but also with the state. As we cannot get rid of the state, we would rather get rid of religion.

- A Rahman 

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 27 November 2013, 2:13
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 
I think the line of thoughts below is almost all wrong.
 
Let me say it clearly again, 'Saudi Arabia is a barbaric state' is no good reason for any good/just person/nation to turn barbaric.
 
Now, does that mean that a just person/nation should accept Saudi Arabia to remain barbaric? NO.
 
I think good/just people should remain good/just and try their best to discourage barbaric/unjust behavior everywhere. They should also penalize/fight hatred and injustice where needed. Fighting the barbarians with "justice for all" philosophy is not barbarian by any means.
 
It is very unfortunate that for short-term and short-sighted interests, and for their mostly perceived weakness, many otherwise decent people/nations accept, tolerate, and even encourage unjust and barbaric behavior in people and nations.
 
Let me give an example from the Indian subcontinent. In India, the so-called secular forces are too short-sighted and idiotic; they do not seek just one set of laws (uniform civil code) for all citizens. The uniform civil code, which is a serious secular phenomenon, gets hijacked by the Hindutwa fanatics. What a shame!
 
Now talking about some realities, I can see that in some places in the world, one group of hate-mongers seems to be better in fighting another group of hate-mongers. That reality, to me, is too unfortunate and wrong. The fight really should be between the hate-mongers and people who do not hate; and it should be executed with utmost conviction by people who do not hate. Until this present reality is changed, I do not see much hope in this world.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
========================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 

You said Saudi Arabia, being a barbarian state, can do such things, but that should not be repeated by others. Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia is very influential world power; whatever they do, many others emulate. There are many other countries, where  persecution of religious minorities are rampant. Also, as you know, millions of people have no problem with Saudi religious practices. They will support it until they are subjected to such discrimination, as is the case in Angola.

You must have noticed that – there are no outcries over such unjust practice in Saudi Arabia also. That could be because most people love to take the moral high ground, as you did. They people have mindset of "we are not one of them." The result is – such practices have been going on unabated for thousands of year in Saudi Arabia. Iran has jailed a Christian Priest, recently, because he has been holding prayer meetings at private residences there. There are many such examples in many countries around the world.
 
When we say – Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. are barbarian states, we kind of give them a pass to do anything there. This sort of moral high ground usually leads to vulnerability.
 
Most wrongdoers are lowlife people, but we still have to engage them to fight wrongdoings. In covert operations, good people have to act like bad people to fight wrongdoers. Sometimes, you have to use a thorn to pull out another thorn. Let's think about this fact – if a mugger gets mugged one day, I believe, he will learn a better lesson than sitting in the jail with free food, free lodging, and free entertainment.
 
One of the human characteristics is – we feel and understand some of our actions when it happens directly to us. Banning any religion anywhere is wrong; but sometimes it may be the best way to open up eyes and consciousness of some people, who otherwise won't learn lesson.

Jiten Roy
 















__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques



Happy Thanksgiving to all our forum members! If you are not having an oversize Turkey, you might be chewing some other smaller feathery things, I suppose?

Well, my intention is not to discuss birds but the religion that has now finally metamorphosed to a pure evil. So, what to do with it? Tolerate and hope that people will come to their senses and conform to the rules of civil society? I am sorry, I do not see that trend at all. The problem is how much can you tolerate the evil before it gets you? What's the glory of loosing your head when you can stand up and give a good fight before it is too late. This not the first time people are facing this kind of challenge. Who wants to have another lawless neighborhood next to their houses? Probably no one? Angolans are only preempting to save their @sses?

Angolan attitude is not politically correct but if you ask any average American, European, Asian or African, you might get a politically correct answer, but that would be with a wink. How can that be so great? 
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:53 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
1. I vote for Dr. Sukhamaya Bain. "Tumi odhom boliya ami uttom hoibo naa keno?" Retaliating a bad thing with another bad thing is not sensible. The chain reaction can be dangerous for the world.
2. The news on Angola banning Islam and destroying mosques still seems to be controversial to some extent. The state religion of Angola is Christianity. Like any other religion, Christianity is not monolithic. It has so many denominations. Angola is dominated by the Catholics and Muslims constitute only 1% of the Angolan population. The recent move may be more about establishing constitutionally Catholic supremacy in the country in which Islam along with dozens of other religious groups and cults have become unfortunate victims. 
3. Banning religion is not new in history. King Ajatashatru prohibited practice of Buddhism in his kingdom (read the poem Poojarini by Rabindranath). We have witnessed all sorts of madness in the middle ages in the Christian and Muslim world. Communist countries banned religions as a matter of principle, not out of hatred. 
4. What do we see now? Is it any thing different from what has happened in Angola recently? Look at Saudi Arabia. Look at Pakistan. There are Islamist groups in Bangladesh who are out there to ban a particular sect in Islam.
5. In my opinion the world would have been better without organized religions. But that world is almost a mission impossible. Prof. Ahmad Sharif, a lifelong confirmed atheist, once wrote that man would never quit religion (I read his article in 1969 or 1970). 
6. Banning organized religions may be impossible, but banning politics in the name of religion may not be an unrealistic proposition. I feel this is urgent in Bangladesh.         


On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 8:45 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
@Sukhamoy Bain

Yes, I understand why you find everything wrong in my statement. You live in a different state of mind than I.

You said, "
I think good/just people should remain good/just and try their best to discourage barbaric/unjust behavior everywhere."
 
This type of mindset is not only impractical, but also could be dangerous in some situations. Your mindset may be good in an ideal world, but not in the forever complex real world. Also, such line of thinking has been proven worthless in the context of religious freedom. As you know, very little has changed in terms of religious freedom in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic societies in the Middle East over thousands of years. So, just calling them barbaric states will not stop religious discrimination anywhere. 

Jiten Roy



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 7:15 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Well said, Mr. Rahman! You are spot on!
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 6:18 PM, ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com> wrote:
 
I can see that Mr. Bain is holding the high moral ground on religion and hoping that others will emulate him. But the fundamental question is, what is it that is causing violation of high moral standards in some countries? Is it not the religion? Religion is inherently tribal and sectarian. Each religion claims to be the best and tries to attract more people into it. Sometimes it is done overtly - by banning other competing religions in its territory as in Saudi Arabia and Iran - and sometimes covertly by offering humanitarian aid, support etc and converting the people. The ultimate aim is the same - expand your empire overtly or covertly. In fulfilling this universal aim, it is inevitable that there will be conflicts and we have seen those conflicts over the centuries and we are witnessing them now.

So, is it not a good idea that this root cause of conflict is eliminated? Religion had its time and usefulness when civic codes and statehood were not in existence. We now live in a different world where religious hegemony is not only in conflict with each other but also with the state. As we cannot get rid of the state, we would rather get rid of religion.

- A Rahman 

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 27 November 2013, 2:13
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 
I think the line of thoughts below is almost all wrong.
 
Let me say it clearly again, 'Saudi Arabia is a barbaric state' is no good reason for any good/just person/nation to turn barbaric.
 
Now, does that mean that a just person/nation should accept Saudi Arabia to remain barbaric? NO.
 
I think good/just people should remain good/just and try their best to discourage barbaric/unjust behavior everywhere. They should also penalize/fight hatred and injustice where needed. Fighting the barbarians with "justice for all" philosophy is not barbarian by any means.
 
It is very unfortunate that for short-term and short-sighted interests, and for their mostly perceived weakness, many otherwise decent people/nations accept, tolerate, and even encourage unjust and barbaric behavior in people and nations.
 
Let me give an example from the Indian subcontinent. In India, the so-called secular forces are too short-sighted and idiotic; they do not seek just one set of laws (uniform civil code) for all citizens. The uniform civil code, which is a serious secular phenomenon, gets hijacked by the Hindutwa fanatics. What a shame!
 
Now talking about some realities, I can see that in some places in the world, one group of hate-mongers seems to be better in fighting another group of hate-mongers. That reality, to me, is too unfortunate and wrong. The fight really should be between the hate-mongers and people who do not hate; and it should be executed with utmost conviction by people who do not hate. Until this present reality is changed, I do not see much hope in this world.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
========================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 

You said Saudi Arabia, being a barbarian state, can do such things, but that should not be repeated by others. Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia is very influential world power; whatever they do, many others emulate. There are many other countries, where  persecution of religious minorities are rampant. Also, as you know, millions of people have no problem with Saudi religious practices. They will support it until they are subjected to such discrimination, as is the case in Angola.

You must have noticed that – there are no outcries over such unjust practice in Saudi Arabia also. That could be because most people love to take the moral high ground, as you did. They people have mindset of "we are not one of them." The result is – such practices have been going on unabated for thousands of year in Saudi Arabia. Iran has jailed a Christian Priest, recently, because he has been holding prayer meetings at private residences there. There are many such examples in many countries around the world.
 
When we say – Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. are barbarian states, we kind of give them a pass to do anything there. This sort of moral high ground usually leads to vulnerability.
 
Most wrongdoers are lowlife people, but we still have to engage them to fight wrongdoings. In covert operations, good people have to act like bad people to fight wrongdoers. Sometimes, you have to use a thorn to pull out another thorn. Let's think about this fact – if a mugger gets mugged one day, I believe, he will learn a better lesson than sitting in the jail with free food, free lodging, and free entertainment.
 
One of the human characteristics is – we feel and understand some of our actions when it happens directly to us. Banning any religion anywhere is wrong; but sometimes it may be the best way to open up eyes and consciousness of some people, who otherwise won't learn lesson.

Jiten Roy
 















__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___