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Sunday, August 19, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling



The Prophet was engaged in 'gazwa', which is better translated as banditry than war.  In about a hundred such incidents he killed thousands of innocent persons.  During the spread of Islam, hundreds of thousands of innocent people got killed by his followers.

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 2:12 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

When I heard the verse "Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32)" for the first time, I had the same reaction as Dr. Das. I was wondering how this verse could make sense, when Prophet was engaged in many wars. In a war, innocent people get killed. There is no denying about it. Then I realize that - devils are in the details of the term "Innocent Person." Who are those innocent persons? I can exclude almost everyone from that category. Therefore, this verse bears very little significance to me.

Jiten Roy



--- On Sun, 8/19/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, August 19, 2012, 8:17 AM


 

"Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32)". Yet, it killed three of the rightly guided Caliphs and poisoned the first one. It decimated the Egyptians, Mesopotamians and the Persians during the reign of the second Caliph.

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 7:11 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

This post shows how hard it is to make a point when someone already made up their minds about a topic. For example, Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32 ). What more one person needs to attacking innocent people?

Today we look at Assam and see targeted killings of minority population, because they are "Bengalis" and Muslims. If we take a dispassionate view of our history, we see a lot of conflicts without religion involved. As I said it before, religion, nationalism, tribalism, ideologies have been "abused" to gain POLITICAL goals.

It is easy to point finger at religion but religion is not a one liner book. It is a complete code of life. Since every communities of this world have bad and good people, some verses discuss those issuies.

But those turn good people into bad people (leaders) are the real criminals not religion. If I remove all criminal laws from the books of Bangladesh, it will not remove crime from this country. People have to change their thinking, attitudes etc to make that happen. Religion is an exceotionally good tool to make that transformation happen.

There are plenty of secular criminals who also commit crime with different excuses. Often religion is only an exuse not the cause.

There are reports from criminal land grabbers who snaches away lands from weak and poor people and build mosque on it. Religion does NOT support such acts but half literate people often don't know that and they are duped into the scam like many others scams coming out of Bangladesh in recent years.

Many religious people are like many atheists I met here. They made up their minds and find silliest excuses to support their flawed ideas. Also some are very open and honest like any other group of people.

A book with nice texts do not have any magic in it to change people. People have to make an effort to understand religion and practice it. While there are many bad people among religious groups, there are tons of great people in them too. Who sacrifice a lot to make an honest living, be kind to their neighbors, help poor people etc.

Selective picking cannot give us the total picture.


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 5:41 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

When Q. A. Rahman writes, "I think sometime religion looks "Bad" because we "Selectively" follow some ideas and don't follow others", I hope he realizes that while a brainwashed religious person might call it "looking bad", an honest, neutral and non-malicious person would probably call it "actually bad." For this, the religious person would have the burden of explaining that what looks bad is actually not bad, as opposed to branding the neutral person anti-religious. The way I see it, a lot of the religious books have too many 'teachings' that would not fly with truly honest and intelligent people.
In fact, spending too much time on finding contexts and explaining to neutral non-religious people is not a big problem, even when the neutral persons have no patience hearing the explanation.
The overwhelmingly big problem is when a bad teaching is followed by some people for doing bad things in the world under the cover of divinity and unquestionability. This has been making life so miserable for so many innocent people in the world.
I do not agree totally with Mr. Rahman's statement. I think religious people should follow selectively only the good teachings in religious books, and dump the bad teachings, without feeling guilty of not following the religion in its entirety.
Sukhamaya Bain
==================================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence
I agree mostly.
Religion is like a jungle; one can find delicious as well poisonous fruits there. The problem is - there is no guarantee that everyone will always pick the delicious fruits. This is what's going on with the religion. Some people are picking poisonous fruits either advertently or inadvertently. The deliberate use of poisonous fruits (of religion) is causing havoc around the world, and it is not decreasing; it's being used increasingly to settle religious group rivalries across religious boundaries or even within the same religious boundary.
I am convinced that – most of the evils that are happening around the world are somehow or other due to the religious divisions among us, irrespective of how good religious principles are. It's because – where there is division, there is competition and rivalry. This is one of our instinctive characteristics. You may keep it dormant for a while through proper education and training, but can't eliminate it. I criticize religion for its very existence in this day and age, not because it has nothing good to offer anymore.
After the scientific renaissance, science took over our lives and religion lost its utility. Morality in our lives comes from societal demands and environment. The populace in Bangladesh is devoutly religious, yet Bangladesh is one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
Jiten Roy
--- On Tue, 8/14/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 10:03 AM

Some people are just reacting to what religion is feeding to them. Obviously, not everybody will react to the same extent, but - some will. Don't blame them for reacting.


>>>>>>>>>> I think sometime religion looks "Bad" because we "Selectively" follow some ideas and don't follow others. For example, Bangladeshi Muslims are pretty big on "Showing" they are Muslims, when it benefits them. However you check on most of them if they paid, obligatory charity (Zakat) or made sacrifices to make an honest living (Halal income), you will see plenty of hypocrites.

I have seen plenty of Muslims, foaming their mouth about their "Rights" but not so eager to worry about their "Responsibilities". Which is the very reason why "Religion" looks bad to many of us (Muslims and non-Muslims alike). When I look back to teachings of prophet Muhammad (PBUH), he was more worried about his responsibilities and often "forgave" others when it came to his rights over them (Muslims and non-Muslim alike). Most Muslims don't follow it and those who do, they don't make headlines.

This is the "Root cause" of problems we see when it comes to religion. So in one word, we are greedy and often we prefer money/power over God.

Shalom!


-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Aug 12, 2012 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence

Most religious people are either unwise or fake. They are unwise because they can't visualize the evil done on earth by what religion. All they need to do is - look around the world with open eyes and minds, but – they can't.
I know – people will still say – religion is not to blame; it's the people, the so called misguided religious fundamentalists, to blame. That's hogwash; I don't blame anybody, but religion, for this. Some people are just reacting to what religion is feeding to them. Obviously, not everybody will react to the same extent, but - some will. Don't blame them for reacting.
So, please - no more blame, excuses, and double talks; try to analyze the root cause, if you can, and try to expose all evils of religion on humanity. Also, please don't tell me that some big-shot said - religion is the 'shuva-sanskar,' on earth, because I have seen enough of those shuvo-sanskars by now already. Don't show me anymore.
Jiten Roy





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Re: [mukto-mona] বঙ্গবন্ধুর সমাধিস্থল সোহরাওয়ার্দি উদ্যানে স্থানান্তরের জন্য পুনরায় দাবী !!!!!!!



I think the grave of the Bangabandhu should remain in Tungipara. That is his birthplace, and Dhaka is too crowded. Tungipara should be developed for making it suitable for visitors from all over the country and the world.
 
Sukhamaya Bain

==============================================
From: Muhammad Ali <man1k195709@yahoo.com>
To:
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:30 AM
Subject: [mukto-mona] বঙ্গবন্ধুর সমাধিস্থল সোহরাওয়ার্দি উদ্যানে স্থানান্তরের জন্য পুনরায় দাবী !!!!!!!

 
বঙ্গবন্ধুর সমাধিস্থল সোহরাওয়ার্দি উদ্যানে স্থানান্তরের জন্য পুনরায় দাবী
এ এস খান, ষ্টকহোম, ১৭ আগস্ট (বিডিএনএন২৪) :- স্ইুডেন প্রবাসী বিশিষ্ট মুক্তিযোদ্ধা সৈয়দ শহীদুল হক মামা ৭১এর মুক্তিযুদ্ধকালে গেরিলা দল মামা গ্রুপের প্রধান ছিলেন। এ জন্য তিনি 'মামা' নামে পরিচিত। বিগত ১০ ও ১১ জুলাই বিচারপতি এ টি এম ফজলে কবীরের নেতৃত্বে তিন সদস্যের অন্তর্জাতিক অপরাধ ট্রাইব্যুনাল ২-এ জামায়াতে ইসলামীর সহকারী সেক্রেটারী জেনারেল কাদের মোল্লার বিরুদ্ধে মানবতা বিরোধী অপরাধের মামলায় শহীদুল হক মামা রাষ্ট্রপক্ষের দ্বিতীয় সাক্ষী হিসাবে সাক্ষ্য প্রদান করেন। সৈয়দ শহীদুল হক জবানবন্দিতে বলেন, ইয়াহিয়া খানের সামরিক শাসনামলে তাঁর বিরদ্ধে একটি মিথ্যা মামলা করা হয়েছিল। ঐ মামলা থেকে তিনি বেকসুর খালাস পান। ওই মামলায় যারা তাঁর পক্ষে সাক্ষ্য দিয়েছিলেন, তাঁদের একাত্তরের ২৫ মার্চ রাতে কাদের মোল্লা ও তাঁর সহযোগীরা ধরে নিয়ে গিয়ে হত্যা করে।
জবানবন্দিতে শহীদুল হক মামা আরো বলেন, পরে মিরপুরে এসে তিনি দুটি ঘটনা শোনেন। ২৭ মার্চ কবি মেহেরুননিসা, তাঁর ভাই ও মাকে টুকরো টুকরো করে হত্যা করা হয়। কাদের মোল্লা এই হত্যাকান্ডের নেতৃত্বে ছিলেন। এছাড়া ঢাকার বাংলা কলেজের ছাত্র পল্লবকে আখতার গুন্ডা ও তার সহযোগীরা ঠাটারী বাজার থেকে ধরে নিয়ে মিরপুরের মুসলিম বাজার নামক স্থানে নিয়ে যায়। সেখানে পল্লবের হাতের আঙুল কেটে ও পরে গাছে ঝুলিয়ে তাঁকে নির্মমভাবে হত্যা করা হয়। কাদের মোল্লা এই ঘটনার মূল নায়ক ছিলেন। এসব হত্যাকান্ডের সাথে জড়িত অন্যান্য সহযোগিদের মধ্যে ছিল হাশে হাশমী, আব্বাস চেয়ারম্যান, আক্তার গুন্ডা, হাক্কা গুন্ডা ও নেহার সহ আরো অনেকে।
সাক্ষী বলেন, একাত্তরে তিনি ভারতের আগরতলায় মুক্তিযুদ্ধের প্রশিক্ষন শেষে ২ নম্বর সেক্টর কমান্ডারের হেড কোয়ার্টর মেলাঘরে যান। সেখানে মেজর জেনারেল খালেদ মোশাররফ ও মেজর হায়দারের অধীনে প্রশিক্ষন নেন।পরে দেশে ফিরে বিভিন্ন অভিযানে অংশ নেন। ১৬ ডিসেম্বর পাকিস্তানি সেনাবাহিনী আত্মসমর্পণ করে। কিন্তু মিরপুর ও মোহাম্মদপুর এলাকার বিহারিদের সঙ্গে পাকিস্তানি সেনা, জামায়াত ও ছাত্রসংঘের সদস্যরা মিলে সেখানে প্রতিরোধ গড়ে তুলে। তাদের বিরুদ্ধে যুদ্ধ করে ৩১ জানুয়ারী ওই এলাকা শত্রুমুক্ত করা হয়। ঐ যুদ্ধে শহীদুল মামা প্রধান ভুমিকা পালন করেন। ওই এলাকার স্বাধীনতার বিপক্ষের ঘটনা এবং ১৪ ডিসেম্বর বুদ্ধিজীবী হত্যাকান্ডের ঘটনা থেকে কাদের মোল্লা বিচ্ছিন্ন ছিলেন না।
শহীদুল মামা বলেন, মুক্তিযুদ্ধের আগে তিনি একজন ছাত্র নেতা ছিলেন এবং ১৯৬৬ সালে ৬ দফা আন্দোলন ও ৭০ এর নির্বাচনে মোহম্মদপুর-মিরপুর এলাকায় আওয়ামী লীগ মনোনিত প্রার্থীর পক্ষে নির্বাচনী প্রচারনা সহ বিভিন্ন আন্দোলনে অংশ গ্রহন করেছিলেন। অপরদিকে ৭০ এর নির্বাচনে কাদের মোল্লা অত্র এলাকায় জামায়াত মনোনিত প্রার্থী গোলাম আজমের পক্ষে ব্যপক নির্বাচনী প্রচারনা চালিয়েছে। শহীদুল মামা আরো বলেন, ১৯৭১ সালের ১৭ ডিসেম্বর তিনি রায়েরবাজার বধ্যভুমি থেকে শহীদ বুদ্ধিজীবীর অসংখ্য লাশ এবং এক বস্তা চোখ উদ্ধার করেন। জবানবন্দি শেষে সাক্ষীকে জেরা করেন আসামী পক্ষের উকিল একরামুল হক। প্রথম দিন সাক্ষীকে ২৫টি প্রশ্ন করেন এবং দ্বিতীয় দিন ৮০টি প্রশ্ন করেন। 
উল্লেখ্য, বিগত ২৮ মে আন্তর্জাতিক অপরাধ ট্রাইবুনাল কাদের মোল্লার বিরুদ্ধে খুন ও গনহত্যার অপরাধে ৬টি চার্জ গঠন করে। সৈয়দ শহীদুল হক খান মামা নিজেকে বঙ্গবন্ধু শেখ মুজিবুর রহমানের একনিষ্ঠ আদর্শের সৈনিক হিসাবে দাবী করেন। বঙ্গবন্ধুর প্রশ্নে তিনি কারো সাথে কোন আপোষ করেন না। তাই বঙ্গবন্ধুর নাম ভাঙ্গিয়ে এবং স্বাধীনতার সুযোগ নিয়ে দেশের সাধারন মানুষের কল্যানের পরিপর্তে যারা নিজেদের আখের ঘুচিয়েছেন, তারা তাকে খারাপ দৃষ্টিতে দেখেন। তিনি দীর্ঘদিন যাবৎ বঙ্গবন্ধুর মাজার সোহরাওয়ার্দি উদ্যানে অর্থ্যাৎ যেখান থেকে বঙ্গবন্ধু ৭ই মার্চের ঐতিহাসিক ভাষন ও ষ¦াধীনতার ঘোষনা দিয়েছিলেন, সেখানে তার সমাধিস্থল স্থানান্তরের দাবী জানিয়ে আসছেন। যতদিন পর্যন্ত তার এ দাবী পূরণ করা না হবে, ততদিন পর্যন্ত তিনি আন্দোলন চালিয়ে যাওয়ার দৃঢ় প্রত্যয় ব্যক্ত করেন। সম্প্রতি এই দাবী পূরণের লক্ষ্যে তিনি ঢাকায় প্রেসক্লাবের সামনে মানববন্ধন কর্মসূচী পালন করেন। জাতির জনকের সমাধিসৌধ সোহরাওয়ার্দী উদ্যানে স্থানান্তর পরিষদ গঠন করে তিনি এ আন্দোলন চালিয়ে যাচ্ছেন। তার এ আন্দোলনের সাথে সাধনা সংসদ একাত্বতা ঘোষনা করে মানববন্ধন কর্মসুচীতে অংশ গ্রহন করে। তিনি জাতির জনক বঙ্গবন্ধুর ৩৭তম শাহাদাৎ বার্ষিকীতে পুনরায় তার সমাধিস্থল সোহরাওয়ার্দি উদ্যানে স্থানান্তরের জন্য সরকারের কাছে জোর দাবী জনান। তিনি বলেন, ঘাতকরা বঙ্গবন্ধুকে ইতিহাস থেকে চিরতরে মুছে ফেলার জন্য তার লাশ টুঙ্গিবাড়ীতে দাফন করে। অথচ বঙ্গবন্ধুর সাথে শহীদ তার সকল স্বজনদের ঢাকায় সমাহিত করা হয়। তিনি হুসিয়ারী উচ্চারন করে বলেন, আমরা যদি বঙ্গবন্ধুর সমাধিস্থল সোহরাওয়ার্দি উদ্যানে স্থানান্তর করতে ব্যর্থ হই, তাহলে বলতে হবে আমরা ঘাতকদের উদ্দেশ্যকেই সফল করতে সহযোগিতা করছি।
শহীদুল হক মামা জামায়াত নেতা কাদের মোল্লার বিরুদ্ধে খুন ও গনহত্যার অপরাধে সাক্ষ্য প্রদান সহ বিভিন্ন আন্দোলন কর্মসূচী শেষে সুইডেনে ফিরে আসলে, সুইডেন আওয়ামী লীগের সিনিয়র সহ সভাপতি আলহাজ্জ্ব আমিনুল হক সহ সাইদূল হক, একরামুল হক, ফয়সাল রহমান,নওরোজ, আসরাফ খান, মামুন, সোহেল ও অরো অনেকে ফুলের তোড়া নিয়ে তার সাথে সৈজন্য সাক্ষ্যাত করেন এবং তার সুস্বাস্থ ও দীর্ঘায়ু কামনা করেন। উল্লেখ্য, শহীদুল হক মামা ১৯৮৬ সাল থেকে স্বপরিবারে সুইডেনে বসবাস করেন। তিনি ধর্মনিরপেক্ষ রাষ্ট্রব্যবস্থায় বিশ্বাস করলেও ব্যক্তি জীবনে অত্যান্ত ধার্মিক। তিনি নিয়মিত রোজা-নামাজ ও ধর্মীয় অনুশাসন কঠোরভাবে মেনে চলেন এবং সাদাসিধে জীবন-যাপন করেন। জানা গেছে, দেশ-বিদেশে তার প্রচুর ভক্তবৃন্দ রয়েছে।
 




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Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling



When I heard the verse "Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32)" for the first time, I had the same reaction as Dr. Das. I was wondering how this verse could make sense, when Prophet was engaged in many wars. In a war, innocent people get killed. There is no denying about it. Then I realize that - devils are in the details of the term "Innocent Person." Who are those innocent persons? I can exclude almost everyone from that category. Therefore, this verse bears very little significance to me.

Jiten Roy



--- On Sun, 8/19/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, August 19, 2012, 8:17 AM

 

"Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32)". Yet, it killed three of the rightly guided Caliphs and poisoned the first one. It decimated the Egyptians, Mesopotamians and the Persians during the reign of the second Caliph.

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 7:11 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

This post shows how hard it is to make a point when someone already made up their minds about a topic. For example, Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32 ). What more one person needs to attacking innocent people?

Today we look at Assam and see targeted killings of minority population, because they are "Bengalis" and Muslims. If we take a dispassionate view of our history, we see a lot of conflicts without religion involved. As I said it before, religion, nationalism, tribalism, ideologies have been "abused" to gain POLITICAL goals.

It is easy to point finger at religion but religion is not a one liner book. It is a complete code of life. Since every communities of this world have bad and good people, some verses discuss those issuies.

But those turn good people into bad people (leaders) are the real criminals not religion. If I remove all criminal laws from the books of Bangladesh, it will not remove crime from this country. People have to change their thinking, attitudes etc to make that happen. Religion is an exceotionally good tool to make that transformation happen.

There are plenty of secular criminals who also commit crime with different excuses. Often religion is only an exuse not the cause.

There are reports from criminal land grabbers who snaches away lands from weak and poor people and build mosque on it. Religion does NOT support such acts but half literate people often don't know that and they are duped into the scam like many others scams coming out of Bangladesh in recent years.

Many religious people are like many atheists I met here. They made up their minds and find silliest excuses to support their flawed ideas. Also some are very open and honest like any other group of people.

A book with nice texts do not have any magic in it to change people. People have to make an effort to understand religion and practice it. While there are many bad people among religious groups, there are tons of great people in them too. Who sacrifice a lot to make an honest living, be kind to their neighbors, help poor people etc.

Selective picking cannot give us the total picture.


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 5:41 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

When Q. A. Rahman writes, "I think sometime religion looks "Bad" because we "Selectively" follow some ideas and don't follow others", I hope he realizes that while a brainwashed religious person might call it "looking bad", an honest, neutral and non-malicious person would probably call it "actually bad." For this, the religious person would have the burden of explaining that what looks bad is actually not bad, as opposed to branding the neutral person anti-religious. The way I see it, a lot of the religious books have too many 'teachings' that would not fly with truly honest and intelligent people.
In fact, spending too much time on finding contexts and explaining to neutral non-religious people is not a big problem, even when the neutral persons have no patience hearing the explanation.
The overwhelmingly big problem is when a bad teaching is followed by some people for doing bad things in the world under the cover of divinity and unquestionability. This has been making life so miserable for so many innocent people in the world.
I do not agree totally with Mr. Rahman's statement. I think religious people should follow selectively only the good teachings in religious books, and dump the bad teachings, without feeling guilty of not following the religion in its entirety.
Sukhamaya Bain
==================================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence
I agree mostly.
Religion is like a jungle; one can find delicious as well poisonous fruits there. The problem is - there is no guarantee that everyone will always pick the delicious fruits. This is what's going on with the religion. Some people are picking poisonous fruits either advertently or inadvertently. The deliberate use of poisonous fruits (of religion) is causing havoc around the world, and it is not decreasing; it's being used increasingly to settle religious group rivalries across religious boundaries or even within the same religious boundary.
I am convinced that – most of the evils that are happening around the world are somehow or other due to the religious divisions among us, irrespective of how good religious principles are. It's because – where there is division, there is competition and rivalry. This is one of our instinctive characteristics. You may keep it dormant for a while through proper education and training, but can't eliminate it. I criticize religion for its very existence in this day and age, not because it has nothing good to offer anymore.
After the scientific renaissance, science took over our lives and religion lost its utility. Morality in our lives comes from societal demands and environment. The populace in Bangladesh is devoutly religious, yet Bangladesh is one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
Jiten Roy
--- On Tue, 8/14/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 10:03 AM

Some people are just reacting to what religion is feeding to them. Obviously, not everybody will react to the same extent, but - some will. Don't blame them for reacting.


>>>>>>>>>> I think sometime religion looks "Bad" because we "Selectively" follow some ideas and don't follow others. For example, Bangladeshi Muslims are pretty big on "Showing" they are Muslims, when it benefits them. However you check on most of them if they paid, obligatory charity (Zakat) or made sacrifices to make an honest living (Halal income), you will see plenty of hypocrites.

I have seen plenty of Muslims, foaming their mouth about their "Rights" but not so eager to worry about their "Responsibilities". Which is the very reason why "Religion" looks bad to many of us (Muslims and non-Muslims alike). When I look back to teachings of prophet Muhammad (PBUH), he was more worried about his responsibilities and often "forgave" others when it came to his rights over them (Muslims and non-Muslim alike). Most Muslims don't follow it and those who do, they don't make headlines.

This is the "Root cause" of problems we see when it comes to religion. So in one word, we are greedy and often we prefer money/power over God.

Shalom!


-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Aug 12, 2012 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence

Most religious people are either unwise or fake. They are unwise because they can't visualize the evil done on earth by what religion. All they need to do is - look around the world with open eyes and minds, but – they can't.
I know – people will still say – religion is not to blame; it's the people, the so called misguided religious fundamentalists, to blame. That's hogwash; I don't blame anybody, but religion, for this. Some people are just reacting to what religion is feeding to them. Obviously, not everybody will react to the same extent, but - some will. Don't blame them for reacting.
So, please - no more blame, excuses, and double talks; try to analyze the root cause, if you can, and try to expose all evils of religion on humanity. Also, please don't tell me that some big-shot said - religion is the 'shuva-sanskar,' on earth, because I have seen enough of those shuvo-sanskars by now already. Don't show me anymore.
Jiten Roy




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[mukto-mona] For all the conspiracy theory lovers (to which crowd I sometimes belong myself):




For all the conspiracy theory lovers (to which crowd I sometimes belong myself):

Photo: Fun, love and insanity.

   You don't have to always stand apart from the herd in order to recognize conspiracy.  You need intelligence , imagination, sensitivity, analytical power, and above all, a caring heart for the rest of the herd. More often than not, with all those qualities, you find yourself isolated and even shunned by the herd, calling you a "conspiracy theorist"!

              Farida Majid


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               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling



"Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32)".  Yet, it killed three of the rightly guided Caliphs and poisoned the first one.  It decimated the Egyptians, Mesopotamians and the Persians during the reign of the second Caliph.

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 7:11 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 

This post shows how hard it is to make a point when someone already made up their minds about a topic. For example, Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32 ). What more one person needs to attacking innocent people?

Today we look at Assam and see targeted killings of minority population, because they are "Bengalis" and Muslims. If we take a dispassionate view of our history, we see a lot of conflicts without religion involved. As I said it before, religion, nationalism, tribalism, ideologies have been "abused" to gain POLITICAL goals.

It is easy to point finger at religion but religion is not a one liner book. It is a complete code of life. Since every communities of this world have bad and good people, some verses discuss those issuies.

But those turn good people into bad people (leaders) are the real criminals not religion. If I remove all criminal laws from the books of Bangladesh, it will not remove crime from this country. People have to change their thinking, attitudes etc to make that happen. Religion is an exceotionally good tool to make that transformation happen.

There are plenty of secular criminals who also commit crime with different excuses. Often religion is only an exuse not the cause.

There are reports from criminal land grabbers who snaches away lands from weak and poor people and build mosque on it. Religion does NOT support such acts but half literate people often don't know that and they are duped into the scam like many others scams coming out of Bangladesh in recent years.

Many religious people are like many atheists I met here. They made up their minds and find silliest excuses to support their flawed ideas. Also some are very open and honest like any other group of people.

A book with nice texts do not have any magic in it to change people. People have to make an effort to understand religion and practice it. While there are many bad people among religious groups, there are tons of great people in them too. Who sacrifice a lot to make an honest living, be kind to their neighbors, help poor people etc.

Selective picking cannot give us the total picture.


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 5:41 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
When Q. A. Rahman writes, "I think sometime religion looks "Bad" because we "Selectively" follow some ideas and don't follow others", I hope he realizes that while a brainwashed religious person might call it "looking bad", an honest, neutral and non-malicious person would probably call it "actually bad." For this, the religious person would have the burden of explaining that what looks bad is actually not bad, as opposed to branding the neutral person anti-religious. The way I see it, a lot of the religious books have too many 'teachings' that would not fly with truly honest and intelligent people.
 
In fact, spending too much time on finding contexts and explaining to neutral non-religious people is not a big problem, even when the neutral persons have no patience hearing the explanation.
 
The overwhelmingly big problem is when a bad teaching is followed by some people for doing bad things in the world under the cover of divinity and unquestionability. This has been making life so miserable for so many innocent people in the world.
 
I do not agree totally with Mr. Rahman's statement. I think religious people should follow selectively only the good teachings in religious books, and dump the bad teachings, without feeling guilty of not following the religion in its entirety.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
==================================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence
 
I agree mostly.
 
Religion is like a jungle; one can find delicious as well poisonous fruits there. The problem is - there is no guarantee that everyone will always pick the delicious fruits. This is what's going on with the religion. Some people are picking poisonous fruits either advertently or inadvertently. The deliberate use of poisonous fruits (of religion) is causing havoc around the world, and it is not decreasing; it's being used increasingly to settle religious group rivalries across religious boundaries or even within the same religious boundary.
I am convinced that – most of the evils that are happening around the world are somehow or other due to the religious divisions among us, irrespective of how good religious principles are. It's because – where there is division, there is competition and rivalry. This is one of our instinctive characteristics. You may keep it dormant for a while through proper education and training, but can't eliminate it. I criticize religion for its very existence in this day and age, not because it has nothing good to offer anymore.
After the scientific renaissance, science took over our lives and religion lost its utility.  Morality in our lives comes from societal demands and environment. The populace in Bangladesh is devoutly religious, yet Bangladesh is one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
Jiten Roy
--- On Tue, 8/14/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 10:03 AM

 
Some people are just reacting to what religion is feeding to them. Obviously, not everybody will react to the same extent, but - some will. Don't blame them for reacting.


>>>>>>>>>> I think sometime religion looks "Bad" because we "Selectively" follow some ideas and don't follow others. For example, Bangladeshi Muslims are pretty big on "Showing" they are Muslims, when it benefits them. However you check on most of them if they paid, obligatory charity (Zakat) or made sacrifices to make an honest living (Halal income), you will see plenty of hypocrites.

I have seen plenty of Muslims, foaming their mouth about their "Rights" but not so eager to worry about their "Responsibilities". Which is the very reason why "Religion" looks bad to many of us (Muslims and non-Muslims alike). When I look back to teachings of prophet Muhammad (PBUH), he was more worried about his responsibilities and often "forgave" others when it came to his rights over them (Muslims and non-Muslim alike). Most Muslims don't follow it and those who do, they don't make headlines.

This is the "Root cause" of problems we see when it comes to religion. So in one word, we are greedy and often we prefer money/power over God.

Shalom!


-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Aug 12, 2012 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence
 

Most religious people are either unwise or fake. They are unwise because they can't visualize the evil done on earth by what religion. All they need to do is - look around the world with open eyes and minds, but – they can't.
I know – people will still say – religion is not to blame; it's the people, the so called misguided religious fundamentalists, to blame.  That's hogwash; I don't blame anybody, but religion, for this. Some people are just reacting to what religion is feeding to them. Obviously, not everybody will react to the same extent, but - some will. Don't blame them for reacting. 
So, please - no more blame, excuses, and double talks; try to analyze the root cause, if you can, and try to expose all evils of religion on humanity. Also, please don't tell me that some big-shot said - religion is the 'shuva-sanskar,' on earth, because I have seen enough of those shuvo-sanskars by now already. Don't show me anymore.
 
Jiten Roy
 




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