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Monday, July 2, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)



I did, and Mr. Rahman ( may Allah bestow rahmat on him) reacted.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Let's not talk about Islam;  people have objection to the criticism of Islam.

We were talking about gambling and religion, and, I believe, Mr. Rahman introduced Islam into it, if I am not mistaken.



--- On Mon, 7/2/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

 

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 2, 2012, 8:32 PM

 
Money changers and money lenders ain't the same breed of animals. 
Islam allows looting;

>>>>>>> Not true.  Really, what is the Surah Anfal(Sura#8) all about?

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 6:44 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Islam allows looting;

>>>>>>> Not true.

Also Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) spoke against Money changers which is ALSO prohibited in Islam.Which deals with riba or interest based money leading.


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 8:05 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)

 
"most religions do not sanction these types of activities."  Not true, in Hinduism, Dharmaputra Yudisthira staked even his wife on gambling; Islam allows looting; Jesus spoke against money changers, but not against the gamblers.

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
We sometime commit resources in our personal lives purely based on faith. We do it in quest of some sort of gain. This is gambling. Even though people may get handsomely rewarded sometimes, mostly they lose it all. This is why gambling businesses do exist on the face of the earth. Everybody knows this fact, yet - most of us do it anyway. We do it for fun and excitement. It brings thrill of winning and agony of failure. The key is to control the extent of gambling. It's like investing in the stock exchange; you do it with the money you can afford to lose. There is no gambling without risk. May be that's why most religions do not sanction these types of activities. But, wait a minute! Isn't religion one such faith also? Isn't religion the biggest gambling endeavor in our lives? Shouldn't we keep it under control also to enjoy the thrill and excitement of this gambling activity.
 
Jiten Roy
 
N. B. I believe religion could be a fun thing in our lives if we could keep it under control. 





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Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

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               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)



Let's not talk about Islam;  people have objection to the criticism of Islam.

We were talking about gambling and religion, and, I believe, Mr. Rahman introduced Islam into it, if I am not mistaken.



--- On Mon, 7/2/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

 

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 2, 2012, 8:32 PM

 
Money changers and money lenders ain't the same breed of animals. 
Islam allows looting;

>>>>>>> Not true.  Really, what is the Surah Anfal(Sura#8) all about?

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 6:44 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Islam allows looting;

>>>>>>> Not true.

Also Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) spoke against Money changers which is ALSO prohibited in Islam.Which deals with riba or interest based money leading.


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 8:05 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)

 
"most religions do not sanction these types of activities."  Not true, in Hinduism, Dharmaputra Yudisthira staked even his wife on gambling; Islam allows looting; Jesus spoke against money changers, but not against the gamblers.

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
We sometime commit resources in our personal lives purely based on faith. We do it in quest of some sort of gain. This is gambling. Even though people may get handsomely rewarded sometimes, mostly they lose it all. This is why gambling businesses do exist on the face of the earth. Everybody knows this fact, yet - most of us do it anyway. We do it for fun and excitement. It brings thrill of winning and agony of failure. The key is to control the extent of gambling. It's like investing in the stock exchange; you do it with the money you can afford to lose. There is no gambling without risk. May be that's why most religions do not sanction these types of activities. But, wait a minute! Isn't religion one such faith also? Isn't religion the biggest gambling endeavor in our lives? Shouldn't we keep it under control also to enjoy the thrill and excitement of this gambling activity.
 
Jiten Roy
 
N. B. I believe religion could be a fun thing in our lives if we could keep it under control. 




__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)



Money changers and money lenders ain't the same breed of animals. 

Islam allows looting;

>>>>>>> Not true.  Really, what is the Surah Anfal(Sura#8) all about?

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 6:44 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 

Islam allows looting;

>>>>>>> Not true.

Also Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) spoke against Money changers which is ALSO prohibited in Islam.Which deals with riba or interest based money leading.


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 8:05 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Oh! the Thrill of Gambling (a wondering thought)

 
"most religions do not sanction these types of activities."  Not true, in Hinduism, Dharmaputra Yudisthira staked even his wife on gambling; Islam allows looting; Jesus spoke against money changers, but not against the gamblers.

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
We sometime commit resources in our personal lives purely based on faith. We do it in quest of some sort of gain. This is gambling. Even though people may get handsomely rewarded sometimes, mostly they lose it all. This is why gambling businesses do exist on the face of the earth. Everybody knows this fact, yet - most of us do it anyway. We do it for fun and excitement. It brings thrill of winning and agony of failure. The key is to control the extent of gambling. It's like investing in the stock exchange; you do it with the money you can afford to lose. There is no gambling without risk. May be that's why most religions do not sanction these types of activities. But, wait a minute! Isn't religion one such faith also? Isn't religion the biggest gambling endeavor in our lives? Shouldn't we keep it under control also to enjoy the thrill and excitement of this gambling activity.
 
Jiten Roy
 
N. B. I believe religion could be a fun thing in our lives if we could keep it under control. 




__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People



Recently I read somewhere that communism was born in Paris in 1848, and died in the same place in 1968.  An average intellectual of Calcutta is essentially a kupamanduka, a frog in the well, his views are limited by it's cylindrical wall.

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 


So, you call those communal riots and carnage as peoples' resistance; I do not like your communistic peoples' resistance. You are one of those diehard supporters of communist ideology that advocates taking over societal control (power-grab) through violent class-warfare by peddling the sentiment of the innocent poor people.  As a result, you call 2 days of continuous communal riots and carnage in Degonga a peoples' resistance. This is the only way you know to give power to the people.

To me this is the jungle-rule, Mr. Soumitra. Show me one successful country in the world that has empowered people using this jungle-rule, you call communism. How many millions of innocent people were killed during the so called 'purification-struggle' during the establishment of the communist rule in the Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia? Communism, as I have seen so far, is simply a Mafia/Gangster rule that makes common people slaves of the Mafia bosses of the Politbureau. Am I reading it right, Mr. Bose?

As I see - you like to talk about peoples' power a lot. Most power people will ever get is through a democratic system; peoples' violence will not give them that power. That's what history tells me. I am learning!

Thank you.

Jiten Roy


--- On Mon, 7/2/12, Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
Date: Monday, July 2, 2012, 2:05 AM


 
I am appalled by Kamal Das crooked way of construing and Jiten babus statements. For the information of Jiten Babu whatever happened in Degonga and Nadia was machinations by the local BJP which was summarily stopped by the people's resistance even when the police wanted to play with it. So the information base of yours is faulty. We have hour by hour investigation report.
This Kamal Das is funny, the example of the paraguayan priest now contending for the presidentship was simply put in [ I mentioned that it is an extreme example] that those who work for people cannot be barred by religious beliefs. Kamal Das simply turned the logic upside down!

On 2 July 2012 04:02, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
               Oh! Please! You and I are NOT talking about the same thing.  You are pathetically limited to only one dictionary meaning of the word "religion". I am dealing in my head with at least a dozen meanings in twenty different contexts. Here is another para from my article which might give an idea of what an 'essentialist position' means and why it is BAD:

          May be I am dimwitted. But Shiva Shankar has to produce a more credible argument for his love of Arnold Toynbee's outdated views. How are we to solve the problem of casteism in our society by reading Toynbee's critique of religions? The more we read Toynbee the more we would backslide into the hole of an imagined 'essentialist' position from which there is no exit.  It is the palette that supplies the language of fundamentalists of all hues and tints. I feel despondent. Reading Toynbee is like rehearsing the master-plan of the executioner, and looking at ourselves through our destroyer's eyes. We cannot and should not revisit the agony of Babasaheb Ambedkar, the executed, without being in a better position to deconstruct the politics of Gandhi, et al that produced that agony and rekindling the resolve to carry on Ambedkar's original mission.

 


Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 08:27:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People

 

 "--- critiquing religion is a mask for communalism."  Farida Majid
 
With due respect I want to say that the statement is not always true. How can Marx's statement "Religion is the opiate of the masses" be a mask of communalism? How can Charvak (probably a common name ascribed to more than one rebel thinkers) be branded as a communalist? Should we really call Rabindranath's writing of the play "Bisarjan" (denouncing human sacrifice in the name of religion) a mask of communalism? What would the rationalist thinkers like Prabir Ghosh (of West Bengal) do about their own views? Personally I am in favor of ongoing debates. Among people there are believers, nonbelievers, agnostics, and skeptics. Each group has it's own views and it's voice needs to be heard. But I understand that what you can do in an advanced country like America, you cannot do in Bangladesh or India. The other day the atheists of America assembled in Washington D.C. to raise their voice. In think Mukto-mona is a very special forum where every one should feel comfortable in expressing his own views on religion and thus breathe freely. And I believe it has been going pretty well except some incidences of intolerant and abusive reactions. This opportunity of discussing diverse views in the forum cannot go without some associated responsibilities on the part of the debaters. I have always been insisting on the following rules:
i) Do not spread communalism
ii) Critiquing should be more on general terms than specific as for the latter we are not ready yet and it can really hurt the feelings of a believer
iii) Shake off all your hidden communalist agenda if there are any before you give your views
     
    
      

From: shamschoudhury <shamschoudhury@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People

 

Can you stop discussing religion in this forum? Let everyone practice and concentrate on one's own religion rather than criticizing other religions.

- Shams



Sent from Samsung tablet

subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is a gray area between religion itself and the way it is used by vested interest groups. In a God fearing society it is unproductive and sometimes catastrophic to bluntly criticize a religion. It antagonizes common people and the reactionary forces get an excuse to pull them on their own side. But can a society really progress without pointing out the weaknesses in a religion? Obviously, No. But if we do so, religious feelings of the believers cannot but be hurt. It is a dilemma indeed. When Dipa Mehta shows in her film "Water" the quote from Gandhi and Manusanhita side by side, the Hindutvabadis do not like it. But we come to know that Gandhi did not endorse all of sage Manu's sacred pronouncements.    



________________________________ Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 8:55 AM

Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
 
  

                  Do we all agree, on this one point, that we are all opposed to religion-peddling? I fervently hope that the answer is: YES.                If so, then it is our solemn duty to understand the matter of 'religion-peddling'.                         In this business of religion -peddling it is the 'peddling' part that should command our attention.  And that requires certain in-depth and close attention to politics. Religion is a very powerful cultural artifice, and since both politics and religion deal with a community of people, there has been a mix of the two from time immemorial.  But we are constantly talking about religion-related  social symptoms, and mis-diagnosing them as 'religion'.  Why? There are several reasons.  One, mental laziness.  It takes a lot more patience and astute observation to do a political analysis. It needs historical information.
             Throughout the 16th century in Europe, for instance, the Catholic Church was fighting an intense political battle with the breaking up of the Church.  The execution of the Nolan Magus and poet, Giordano Bruno, who was not a scientist or mathematician like Nicholas Copernicus, and the persecution of astronomer Galileo, a couple of decades later are indicative of the Church's political authority under severe pressure.  It is silly to cite this as the paradigmatic 'science v. religion' struggle.  It is a singular historical event within the context of Europe.               Both Dawkins and Hitchens are being totally dishonest in their discussions against religion. Dawkins is addressing the Creationists exclusively, and Hitchens's arguments apply to the Jehadists only.  Neither has the courage and intelligence of Karen Armstrong who discards the construction of the binary opposition of 'science v. religion' and

refuses any hierarchical positioning of the two branches of knowledge.              Two, critiquing religion is a mask for communalism.  More on that later.                              Farida Majid

________________________________
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:17:30 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People  


I meant to say that religion-peddlers are shaping current affairs. 

Thanks.--- On Wed, 6/27/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:


>From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Wednesday, June 27, 2012, 10:39 PM
>
>

>Current affairs are not shaped by religion, defined by what God you adore and what afterlife you desire, alone.  Religion plays a dominant role.  As Seneca said, "Religion is believed to be true by the fools, false by the wise, and useful by the rulers".  Across the world, the dominant law is Roman formulated by Augustus Caeser, a pagan atheist.  Even the dark age and Christianity could not change it. 
>On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> 
>>
>>Dr. Das, I did not discuss religion per se in my last post; I was talking about the voice of the people. 
>>However, can we really stay away from religion, when day-to-day current affairs are being shaped by religion everyday? Even the voice of the people is shaped by religion.  
>>Jiten Roy
>>
>>--- On Tue, 6/26/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 10:29 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>I fail to understand why Dr. Roy initiates the endless debates on religion repeatedly.  I hope the Providence did not assign it to him.
>>>On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:58 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>Bose said:"The Bishop of Paraguay is now contending the Presidential election through a peoples' upsurge - his morality, ethical stand has taught him to represent the voices of the people of the country against imperialism, fascism and comprador bourgeoisie - that is the politics - the action part of it- that is the voice of religion - the voice of the people - the voice of the socially necessary production and the voice of the new society- This is what I meant!" 
>>>> 
>>>>It is so hard to make a head-or-tail of your statements, Mr. Bose. It appears from your above statements that you are suggesting a society could be served better by a religious social system, if I understood correctly. Other times it appears that you are saying peoples' voice should determine the social system of the society, which is basically a democratic system. 
>>>  
>>>If people have choices of a just social system, they will want a system that provides freedom, security, and good livelihood for all, without too much hard work. Can you fulfill those wishes? Is there a system that can make those wishes come true? We have seen societies under churches and clerics; we have seen societies under communism, socialism, capitalism, etc. Finally, we are here. Give me a practical system, not a dream, that will fulfill peoples' choice. 
>> 
>>The problem with the voice of the people is that - it is not unbiased, and, therefore, it may not be right either. Mostly we have misinformed people, even in the most educated societies. Above all, our world is connected by mutual interests, and we cannot ignore that. Can you? Therefore, by following the voices of the people, you may end up in a disastrous situation. Egyptians just elected a President from a religious political party. That's the peoples' choice in Egypt. Also people of Paraguay want a Bishop as President. That's a peoples' choice there. Let's wait and see the outcome. 
>> 
>>You said that there have never been comparative studies on religions. I agree fully. If we had one, maybe we could wipe out dogma and fanaticism from the religion, and we could end up with good human characteristics as religion for all. We don't have that, and, we will ever have that, because religion peddlers will not let that happen for the protection of the institution of religion. 
>> 
>>I am glad - you have opened yourself up to take part in the discussion with a bunch of Bangladeshi nincompoop creatures, as you like to call them. 
>> 
>>Why such contempt, Mr. Bose? Have you made any progress maintaining your silence over  interfaith discussions? Could you explain to me - why West Bengal is having so many outburst of religious conflicts recently (Deogaong, Nadia, etc.), right after coming out of more than 40 years of socialism? I was expecting that - people of West Bengal will possess more liberal religious views. That did not happen. Did it? I am trying to understand your ideological views.That's all.
>> 
>>Jiten Roy
>>--- On Tue, 6/26/12, Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>From: Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@gmail.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?To: "Shah Deeldar" <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>

>>>Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>, "Farida Majid" <farida_majid@hotmail.com>, "jnrsr53@yahoo.com" <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>, "Subimal Chakrabarty" <subimal@yahoo.com>, "kamalctgu@gmail.com" <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
>>>Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 12:57 AM
>>>
>>> 
>>>I am pained by the manner you construed my objective. When I say comparative religious studies is serious matters I actually meant just in the direction opposite to what you have remarked. Moulawis [ Najrul's coinage was Mou-lobhees], Pundits and Bishops would have been wiped out in a comparative religious studies environment. While discussing tradition we have to follow a historical process in discourse- that is the Science. A study with its process and evolution and not getting fixated in any dictum or a system of belief of some fixed imaginary constructed time period is actually shattering the metaphysics and bringing in the Scientific approach from within the belly of the issue. In the discourse of religion we should have the Scientific bent in mind and not the metaphysical fixated bent of mind. Religion is a science of bygone days- Science in the sense of wisdom - Vigyan [ Vishesh gyan] and  may not be the process of experimental natural science
but Science in terms of historical process. the process stopped at some finite bygone time. Metaphysical journey started thereof- we must break that limitation, transgress that. Nevertheless the historical process that pre-dated any religion is extremely important study. History is now becoming a subject of Science, with cliodynamics, process dynamics, social dynamics and analytics seeping in the study of history- just as about 50 years ago Economics became a part of Science. Religion and religious studies should be studied in the multi-track system where the life-line of one religion and that compared with the other one and then with another one need to be studied in parallel lines. A cross sectional study of any one period where projections of all these parallel lines defining that particular age is what we should examine in meticulous details- this process will take off the bias and will create a scientific attitude [Vigyan-monoskota] in tradition
studies. As Farida Apa always harps, we must explore and learn why a particular tradition took the way it really took in a particular era- this is the problematic of religious science. Morality, ethics do have a religious or metaphysical aspect whereas they also do have evolutionary and progression aspect- the question of abortion, that of women's right, the question of economic egalitarianism has shown up in the moral, ethical, value domain and actually have become a part of the religious arena. Religious study is a Scientific study- impeding that is the religious fascism that is now known as religious dogmatic metaphysics. 
>>>We definitely can talk comparative religious doctrines on chosen issues, but we should study it in their own process of development. 
>>>Almost in all religious histories social administration was once a part of the religion, so was the individual life-style and life-chore [japon kriya], we should always think and modify that as per the present requirements - this is the philosophical abstraction part of it.  
>>>The Japon kriya of today hovers around  the social and economic issues and struggles of the present day. If we fail to intervene in it, we fail to do any justice as mature beings. The Bishop of Paraguay is now contending the Presidential election through a peoples' upsurge - his morality, ethical stand has taught him to represent the voices of the people of the country against imperialism, fascism and comprador bourgeoisie - that is the politics - the action part of it- that is the voice of religion - the voice of the people - the voice of the socially necessary production and the voice of the new society- This is what I meant!  
>>>Deplorable is the wasting of time, energy, social wisdom in religious bickering that we see among Bangladeshi intellectuals [ not all], Today's value should direct individuals to find values in the Asuria upsurge, the Nandigram upsurge etc. not in which religion is having the highest spread among whom or that kind of nincompoop kiddish pranks!
>>>
>>>
>>>you think that the discussion is not serious? Do we need to bring Moulawis, Pundits and Bishops for a serious discussion? I find it odd when you propose further comparative studies about religion before we discuss the subject. In another words, you would like to conduct a comparative study but not discuss?  
>>>>I am sure you can study religion more meticulously for another thousand years and end up with brother, Christopher Hitchens's great conclusion!
>>>>"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."  
>>>>Since you know so much about religion, please enlighten us if you care! That would be really helpful. Thank you.
>>>>-SD  
>>>>
>>>>"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS 
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>> From: Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@gmail.com>
>>>>To: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
>>>>Cc: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:57 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>To Subimal and others: 
>>>>Talking about religion is serious stuff. We do not have comparative religious studies in the entire South Asia simply because the ruling forces did not want it. A comparative religious study would create bunches and sets of religiously neutral atheists and this fact is known by our comprador rulers much more than we can ever  think, they knew it better. Religion is traditional study and we ought to follow it very meticulously.  
>>>>That is way beside the point that a country and her intellectuals are doomed to being permanently nincompoop bringing every discussion down to religious differences. It would be smart to study all religions with equal gusto. I find those who generally respond here have zilch knowledge about the religions other than his. This is disparaging and disgusting. It is very unfortunate that these petty squabbles by some utterly nincompoop creatures are more among Bangladeshi intelligentsia. Still, this stale thing fascinates them and especially those who are far from the reality ground of Asuria upsurge or the almost daily upsurges of Bangladeshi toiling and producing masses. These NRBs have stolen their way out of Bangladesh's surplus and now are here debating the track that would doom Bangladesh.
>>>>
>>>>On 24 June 2012 00:41, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>          Hello! Subimal, the title of the article you wrote for "Ogrobeej" sounds good.  Send us a link.          Has anyone of you ever paused to ponder: "Where did this f****ing idea of "critiquing" religions come from?" Certainly not from our neck of the world or from our old and various traditions.  I have done the pondering. Here is an excerpt from my forthcoming article on Imperial History Writing ---
>>>>>         Critiquing of religions is a futile exercise, and in fact, a diversionary tactics. WHAT judgmental comments Macaulay, Toynbee, et al made on Indian religions is of very little substance, most historians now agree. WHY they engaged in critiquing Indian religions as if religions are static, monolithic and divorced from historical developments had to do with their innate racist agenda.  There was also evangelicalism, the everpresent handmaiden of European Imperialism. This agenda itself has a genealogy that grew with the changing concerns of East India Company's activities in India. Up until 18th century India was still the First World, and British Fortune Seekers, other than Company men, would sojourn to India for better lives, some of whom have been described as the White Moghuls by William Dalrymple in his book of that title. 
>>>>>   More to follow.                                                         farida apa
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: subimal@yahoo.comDate: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:05:58 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely? 
>>>>>
>>>>>1. I know what you mean: when you take care of the fundamental needs of common people and build an exploitation-free society, religion does not remain a dominant political force any more. 
>>>>>But can you give me even one example of a historical period when religion was not talked about (praised and critiqued as well) by great thinkers? Religion is such a powerful concept and institution (sometimes all consuming) that it cannot and should not be ignored. We have seen how India was divided on the basis of religion. And we are still suffering. We have also seen the rise of the fundamentalist Hindutwabadis. Look around, you will see a lot more.  
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Why should we be in denial and assume that the threats from religious fundamentalists and fanatics will go away naturally?
>>>>>Mukto-mona is a forum consisting of educated (I mean good degree holders) people. Many of the members are about to retire or already retired. Most of them probably live in comfort zones in all respects. This has provided them with almost unlimited leisure that they can afford to utilize to engage in "intellectual" exercises. Many of them are not ready at all to do so. But they do it as they have nothing else to do. They do it with confidence which comes from, for example, his Ph.D in civil engineering. Being inspired by Dr. Shoumyo Dasgupta, I had to write an article titled "Antorjaale kothokota: jaale bondee bibek o mukto chinta" for Ogrobeej that was edited by him a few years ago. I will never tell my less educated religious relatives and friends that I am an atheist. But Mukto-mona is a forum where I dare do this. But nobody can complain that I have ever shown any kind of profanity in any of my writings.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. My understanding is that religion is man made and has been made to serve the interests of the selected groups of a society. In that it can be exploitative. Then why not to critique it if we can critique any other human innovations or thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>4. I am also aware of the concern expressed by you and Dr. Farida Majid that discussions about religion involve the risk of further dividing the society on communal basis and also strengthening the hands of the fundamentalist and fanatic political forces.But we have a problem. The forum is visited by people of different kinds. Many come here with hidden agenda and those are reflected in their posts although they try to be fair and real free thinkers.
>>>>>
>>>>>5. Finally, I will repeat what I have said before: a person with hidden agenda---communalist, political, or ideological--- has no moral rights to talk against some one else's religion.   
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>From: Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@yahoo.com>
>>>>>To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>>Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 12:32 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>A country, her culture, the civilization can never become mature and can never gain respects from the world till it comes out the filthy and slimy cocoon of religious debates. It is very unfortunate when debate about religion is dumped throughout the world Bangladeshi intellectuals [ a tiny and yet vocal minority though] still cracks their head on it. It is disparaging! Act your age! please, please grow up and look at the problems of the people, their livelihood, their quotidian struggle against injustice, economic inequalities, imperialism and hegemonism. Please walk with the people who produce, who toil, who create wealth and stop peering beneath their pants.  
>>>>>From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 3:14 AM
>>>>>Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>             It is not easy to make sense with cave-dwellers, especially the kind that hangs upside down from the roof of the cave. The visionary power of these people are often known as "blind as a bat."  I don't expect Jiten Roy to know idiomatic English.  I only wish he was a little more honest.             "Where do you see "Islam-bashing" in my statement", charges Jiten Roy.  The question I should be asking: Where did he "see" that I saw Islam-bashing in his statement?  He did not see it. He is just blindly casting a stone in the dark. Or, just plain lying.                I charged mukto-mona for Islam bashing for years, pleading in the beginning (in the early 1992-93, when activities of Nirmul Committee were in full swing) that this kind of crude attacks on the religion of Islam is going to be counter-productive to our stand against the Jamaat.  It will only encourage Jamaat to equate themselves
with Islam.  I got blasted by the Islam-bashers calling me all kinds of ugly names. No logic, no appeal to scientific thinking or citation of history of the humanities -- nothing worked to change their obstinate view.                 That was then. {People curious can look up my article "Talibanization of the Cyberspace  by the Crypto-Islamists." Quotation from this article is used in the biography of Beatles George Harrison, "And the Guitar Gently Weeps."}                  And this is now.  Due to his ignorance of the RSS/BJP anti-Muslim propaganda literature circulated at communal riot-instigating rallies in India, Jiten Roy does not realize that a lot of what he puts forth echoes that language. An example of what I mean is right here on this page -- in the lines he has written -- about Muslims consisting of "poor and backward population" and they being exploited by the fundamentalists, and somehow that is the cause
of "faster growth of Muslim population of the world."                   Even a deaf, mute and 'blind as a bat' will have difficulty following the logic of poor backward Muslim population being converted to Islam by the fundamentalists and thereby causing Islam to be the fastest growing religion in the world.                  Curiously, there is no opinion or view on SECULARISM.  The reason is nether Q. Rahman nor Jiten Roy are secular despite their masks.  They are both communal to the core. The word "religion" has many meanings in many contexts.  Here in this page the word 'religion' connotes communalism.                                            Farida Majid
>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:15:02 -0700Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?  
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Where do you see "Islam-bashing" in my statement, which I made after Q. Rahman boasted that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth? 
>>>>> 
>>>>>In my last response, I have pointed out some of the reasons why Islam is growing faster than Christianity. One reason I gave was the Christian population growth deceleration due to various reasons, and then I said faster growing religion also brings faster growing problems. Let me explain why. 
>>>>>  
>>>>>Faster growth in Islam is due to faster growth in Muslim population in the world. Unfortunately, most of the growth is happening in the poor and backward population. Islamists/fundamentalists are taking advantage of all these poor and desperate people. This is causing enormous problem everywhere else, including Islamic countries, like Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. In USA, highest rate of conversion to Islam is in the Prison. Q. Rahman is right when he said that it's not the religion - it's the people, who make troubles using religion. I concur with him completely - but, the fact that - those trouble makers are growing faster rate also with the faster growth of the religion. That was my point. In fact, you are also talking about the same problem. I do not expect blanket statement like "Islam Bashing" from you. If you do so, you will be no different from Mohiuddin Anwar, who went as far as saying that critics are "Enemy of Islam." 
>>>>>  
>>>>>Jiten Roy--- On Wed, 6/20/12, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote: 
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 10:19 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>              Can we discuss religion freely?         As far as I am concerned, you and the whole bunch of mukto-mona guys have done absolutely nothing but discuss "religion" endlessly and fruitlessly. 97% of these so-called discussions for the last 10-12 years have been on Islam-bashing. The rest were pro-Islamic rehashes.  None of them led to any general enlightenment. No one seems to have progressed to any new level of thinking. Meanwhile, outside the mukto-mona 'religion-locked' thinking, the world has gone on and changed in various ways.             I, on the other hand, had been fighting for the State guarantee of fundamental rights of individual citizen's religious freedom.  A modern nation  founded on the principle of SECULARISM provides that guarantee.  In this context,secularism is a constitutional issue, not a religious issue. No matter how much Shah Abdul Hannan and Q. Rahman shout and scream, the

meaning of 'secularism' is not open to their treacherous, fraudulent interpretation. Secularism is an integral part of the Constitution of Bangladesh.  We should collectively resist all and sundry attempts to vandalize the Constitution of Bangladesh. The brave struggle of Muktijuddho continues until Constitutional Secularism of Bangladesh is mischief-free and blemish-ridden.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             No doubt we will be talking about it again. I will explain further if any one has a sincere question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             Bye for
now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             Farida Majid
>>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:21:45 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely? 
>>>>>>Now, I am so sorry that I made a boo-boo in my last hurried comment, as shown bellow:  
>>>>>>"As you know - the fasted growing religion has been the fasted growing problem on earth also."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I wrote "fasted" instead of fastest. Thanks to Dr. Das and others who pointed out my mistake. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>In response to my above statement, Mr. Q. Rahman said the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Growth did not cause any problem. Ignorance and politics did. Don't think this comment was based on "Logic". Mostly on assumptions and perception. Specifically if you live in the US,it became "Kosher" to talk about Islam this way (Without any rational). 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>In his response, Mr. Q. Rahman may have revealed his inner self. He is saying that - one cannot say whatever he/she likes about Islam from other places, except USA. He is right; people are already gagged by fanatics everywhere else  to say anything against Islam. He appears to be unhappy about the USA, where people are not yet gagged. I used to think him as a special breed of religious people, as he often preaches free-speech. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>Anyway, fanatic people (religious/ideological/political) may present themselves as innocent and harmless, on the surface, but inside they hide monsters. Once you hurt their feelings, they could be quite dangerous.  We need to be cautious about these people; most of them are not normal thinking people. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>Jiten Roy 
>>>>>>--- On Tue, 6/19/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 12:35 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>1. The propaganda that Islam is in danger still works. It is one of the agenda of Jamaat-BNPalliance and their intellectuals to keep Islam safe. Remember KhaledaZia's cautionary words uttered a few years ago that if AL came to power, one would hear "uludhwoni" in mosques.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Bngladesh Khaleda Zia was largely ignored until massive failures of current administration came to surface. I think BNP is getting some popularity in last 12 months. Not because they have said or done anything special but people are frustrated by some activities of current admin. Some of it is normal but some failures are hand to ignore. The comment about ulu in masjid is WRONG. It is scare mongering and people ignored such "tactics". I am glad they did that. I abhor such leaders who play with religion to score political points. Khaleda was criticized for such comments and did not make any of it. Islamic as well as Jihadist movements still to a large extent gain momentum from selling this slogan.>>>>>>>> Not in Bangladesh. Leading imams played a great role in last 5-6 years openly criticizing violence in the name of Islam and most people accepted it. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I googled a little bit. The cyber world is full of hateful articles, vacuous boast, and lies. I>>>>>>>> Well if you like to know little bit about authentic Islam, let me know. The political lies and hateful stuff is for ignorant people. As I tried to explain a fundamental issue on Islam and violence in my recent post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>One Christian group has termed what you are saying about growth of Islam as a myth. >>>>>>>>>> You can view government polls. Pew and gallup to get an accurate picture. Christian groups (Most of them) are more fanatic that any Muslim groups you know. ;-)Does growth in population mean any thing (except that increase the number of voters) if they will be on the earth not to be taken care of properly by the states and they will be kept in dark simply to act as the "gravitational pull" on the rest of the society when it should aspire to rise above hunger, illiteracy, superstition, fanaticism>>>>>>>> With due respect, I think you are over reacting a bit. I was replying to a comment that, Islam is in danger. I firmly think it is not. Some ignorant people try to rally people up saying such garbage. Anyone with some knowledge of history knows the strength of Islam is not in number but quality of people. If you want talk about number, let me remind you
that, ONLY 17 men overcame the army of Laxman Sen of Bengal!! Those who knows a bit about scriptures knows, our times were foretold by prophet Muhammad (PBUH) saying we'll great in number but still suffer for lack of true faith. I am witnessing that and accept it. No need to panic over everything. My faith does not depend on conditions of others. It depends on me!! But I am nervous about the fact that religions are in a race>>>>>>> Religion is not an Olympic event. :-)Islam is growing fastest, it is a fact. But none of us should talk about it as some sort of sporting event. I think we left our teen years some decades ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am nervous because this has the potential to make the world more divisive.>>>>>>>>> As long we are accepting of other faiths and calm about it. It does not make any difference. I have Hindu friends who depend on me more than some of their own family members and rely on my opinions. We accept each other as we are !!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I wish we all could keep religion confined to our spiritual life. Religion itself deserves more freedom and effort to internationalize it will bring more havoc for the world.>>>>>>>> Since some of my posts had some verses from the Qur'an, I have received some very "Offensive" remarks from this esteemed forum. Albeit I only used those verses as sources of my comments. That was my intention and most people read too much into it. As if by some magical power, I'll transform them into hajis!! :-DFirst I was shocked but later had to laugh at it. All those "Maulana" comments and "Communal" comments were over some verses of the Qur'an and they were very normal commentaries. I think as people we (ALL OF US) have to relax a bit more and be more accepting of others. I quoted verses from Veda as well and people were shocked!!  WHY??? I am very comfortable with my faith. I harbor nothing against other faith and my faith made me a better person. So my very
innocent sharing made a lot of waves here. It says a lot about US. So as long we allow people to be themselves, we'll be cool. I have visited durga puja mandaps many times and learnt stories behind the events. It did not diminish my faith but helped me to become a more understanding person. One way to achieve this is to decouple religion from politics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was reading a book by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad. He mentioned his reaction when he heard the term "Pakistan". He said it was UN-Islamic. He provided verses from the Qur'an (He was a great scholar of Islam and mother tongue was Arabic) showing Allah (SWT) made the whole world ready for prayer or "Pure". Calling a certain landscape "Pure land" (Thus implying rest is unpure) is closer to Hindu philosophy than what Islam teaches us. He tried his level best to stop "Partition" but failed because of fanatics from both sides stopped him. Had we know what Islam actually says, people would have looked up to us as "Peace makers" not scared hearing some verses of the Qur'an. As I said many times, Muslims are to blame for it mostly. As you know - the fasted growing religion has been the fasted growing problem on earth also.>>>>>>> Growth did not cause any problem. Ignorance and politics did. Don't think this comment was based on "Logic". Mostly on
assumptions and perception. Specifically if you live in the US,it became "Kosher" to talk about Islam this way (Without any rational). I'll rest now.....Shalom!-----Original Message-----From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:35 amSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Islam may be the fasted growing religion because of some obvious reasons, such as - Christians are not getting married lately or getting married late in their lives and having less number of children compared to Muslims. Also, you cannot become Christian by birth; you need to be baptized into it. 
>>>>>>>Subimal Chakraborty is right – it's not the quantity, it's the quality that matters in the end.  As you know - the fasted growing religion has been the fasted growing problem on earth also.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>Jiten Roy
>>>>>>>--- On Sun, 6/17/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>>To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>>>>>Date: Sunday, June 17, 2012, 8:31 PM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>1. The propaganda that Islam is in danger still works. It is one of the agenda of Jamaat-BNPalliance and their intellectuals to keep Islam safe. Remember KhaledaZia's cautionary words uttered a few years ago that if AL came to power, one would hear "uludhwoni" in mosques. Islamic as well as Jihadist movements still to a large extent gain momentum from selling this slogan. Even a soft version of this propaganda is making many peaceful and peace-loving Muslims overconscious as Muslims and inspiring them to adop orthodox life style in personal life. This is happening to other religious groups to various extents.    
>>>>>>>>2. After reading your post,I googled a little bit. The cyber world is full of hateful articles, vacuous boast, and lies. It is misleading as well as interesting. By reading this it is hard to draw a conclusion on actually what is actually going on in the growth of religions. One Christian group has termed what you are saying about growth of Islam as a myth. 
>>>>>>>>3. Growth of a religion may come from various sources: immigration, conversion---forced as well as deliberate, birth rate, etc. As some one born into a Hindu family, I will subconsciously if not consciously feel good to know that Hindu population is growing in the whole world. Does growth in population mean any thing (except that increase the number of voters) if they will be on the earth not to be taken care of properly by the states and they will be kept in dark simply to act as the "gravitational pull" on the rest of the society when it should aspire to rise above hunger, illiteracy, superstition, fanaticism, and so on? I remember a concluding line from one of Sarat Chatterjee's short stories: the giant dinosaur has been extinct, but the cockroach is still living. But what kind of living is this! Sarat here has pointed to the boast about Sanatan Hindu Dharma that has been persecuting it's own people and is still surviving. 
>>>>>>>>4. I am not sure if Islam or any other religion is in danger or not. But I am nervous about the fact that religions are in a race.I am nervous because this has the potential to make the world more divisive. I wish we all could keep religion confined to our spiritual life. Religion itself deserves more freedom and effort to internationalize it will bring more havoc for the world. Programs of advancement, prosperity, and liberation should be premised on poverty, illiteracy, exploitation, inequality, persecution, oppression, etc. among the humans in general. One way to achieve this is to decouple religion from politics. 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
>>>>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:36 PM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am not sure what cave you have been living for past twenty years. With global jihad on march, country boundaries have become non relevant. If zealots can find any religious issue, people will cross the border and fight without even knowing what they are really fighting for. Only mantra they need is that "Islam is in danger". That is the reality. This is not in 70's, my friend.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You probably forgot that, I AM a Muslim. I do mix with load of Muslims and non-Muslims. The "Islam is in danger" used to work during Pakistan era, they don't anymore.
>>>>>>>>The fact is Islam is NOT in danger. Some Muslims occasionally are. As we are witnessing with the Rohingas and Kashmiries in our region. As far Islam is concern, it is the fastest growing faith in the world and growing fastest in the western world. Where no one can be forced and people are FREE to make up their minds about religion. Lastly, it is entirely possible I have some disagreement with you or other members. Why that "Disagreement" necessitates me to relocate in a CAVE??? If you are not a Muslim or do not have a university degree in Islam, try not to play "Islam expert" with me. It ain't Fox news. If you have an opinion, it would be helpful if you chose to share sources of your information. That would make your "Opinions" more credible. Not interested in petty personal attacks. Welcome mature discussion based on logic, knowledge and tolerance of each other. Shalom! 
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Dev Saha <devsaha5@yahoo.com> To: qar <qrahman@netscape.net> Cc: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>"As far as Indians helping Tamils in Sri Lanka was claimed by people of Sri Lanka."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What would you expect? -Srilankans claiming Bangladeshis helping Tamils?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Occasionally I have seen few Pakistanis and Indians who really LIKE Bengalis but NEVER ahead of their own people!!"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am not sure what cave you have been living for past twenty years. With global jihad on march, country boundaries have become non relevant. If zealots can find any religious issue, people will cross the border and fight without even knowing what they are really fighting for. Only mantra they need is that "Islam is in danger". That is the reality. This is not in 70's, my friend.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-Dev
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--- On Sun, 6/17/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>>>To: devsaha5@yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>Date: Sunday, June 17, 2012, 9:04 AM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You must be joking! Ask BNP and Jamat cadres. The love is not lost yet. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have known many Indians and Pakistanis in my life. However I cannot remember meeting anyone even proposing putting interest of Bangladesh ahead of their own respective countries. It makes me VERY sad when confront people from my own country who regularly put (OR propose to put) Indian or Pakistani interest ahead of ours. They also become advocate for these nations. Occasionally I have seen few Pakistanis and Indians who really LIKE Bengalis but NEVER ahead of their own people!! I do not know why we have so many Pakistani rajakars and Indian Rajakars among us? Our politicians compete to show their eagerness to serve their masters and rarely acknowledge the very people who voted them to power. I harbor no bad feelings for most Pakistanis or Indians and am treated fairly by both people most of the time. It seems like a lot of us have a lot of hate for a lot of people in their hearts. I do not think it is healthy... As far as Indians
helping Tamils in Sri Lanka was claimed by people of Sri Lanka. If you know about Indian clandestine operational







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Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People



Where on earth, did I make any comment on the priest of Paraguay, Mr. Bose?  Why do you even comment about the subjects like philosophy, metaphysics, logic etc.?  It doesn't seem that you are well versed in any of these subjects.

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@gmail.com> wrote:
 

I am appalled by Kamal Das crooked way of construing and Jiten babus statements. For the information of Jiten Babu whatever happened in Degonga and Nadia was machinations by the local BJP which was summarily stopped by the people's resistance even when the police wanted to play with it. So the information base of yours is faulty. We have hour by hour investigation report.

This Kamal Das is funny, the example of the paraguayan priest now contending for the presidentship was simply put in [ I mentioned that it is an extreme example] that those who work for people cannot be barred by religious beliefs. Kamal Das simply turned the logic upside down!


On 2 July 2012 04:02, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
               Oh! Please! You and I are NOT talking about the same thing.  You are pathetically limited to only one dictionary meaning of the word "religion". I am dealing in my head with at least a dozen meanings in twenty different contexts. Here is another para from my article which might give an idea of what an 'essentialist position' means and why it is BAD:

          May be I am dimwitted. But Shiva Shankar has to produce a more credible argument for his love of Arnold Toynbee's outdated views. How are we to solve the problem of casteism in our society by reading Toynbee's critique of religions? The more we read Toynbee the more we would backslide into the hole of an imagined 'essentialist' position from which there is no exit.  It is the palette that supplies the language of fundamentalists of all hues and tints. I feel despondent. Reading Toynbee is like rehearsing the master-plan of the executioner, and looking at ourselves through our destroyer's eyes. We cannot and should not revisit the agony of Babasaheb Ambedkar, the executed, without being in a better position to deconstruct the politics of Gandhi, et al that produced that agony and rekindling the resolve to carry on Ambedkar's original mission.

 


Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 08:27:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People

 

 "--- critiquing religion is a mask for communalism."  Farida Majid
 
With due respect I want to say that the statement is not always true. How can Marx's statement "Religion is the opiate of the masses" be a mask of communalism? How can Charvak (probably a common name ascribed to more than one rebel thinkers) be branded as a communalist? Should we really call Rabindranath's writing of the play "Bisarjan" (denouncing human sacrifice in the name of religion) a mask of communalism? What would the rationalist thinkers like Prabir Ghosh (of West Bengal) do about their own views? Personally I am in favor of ongoing debates. Among people there are believers, nonbelievers, agnostics, and skeptics. Each group has it's own views and it's voice needs to be heard. But I understand that what you can do in an advanced country like America, you cannot do in Bangladesh or India. The other day the atheists of America assembled in Washington D.C. to raise their voice. In think Mukto-mona is a very special forum where every one should feel comfortable in expressing his own views on religion and thus breathe freely. And I believe it has been going pretty well except some incidences of intolerant and abusive reactions. This opportunity of discussing diverse views in the forum cannot go without some associated responsibilities on the part of the debaters. I have always been insisting on the following rules:
i) Do not spread communalism
ii) Critiquing should be more on general terms than specific as for the latter we are not ready yet and it can really hurt the feelings of a believer
iii) Shake off all your hidden communalist agenda if there are any before you give your views
     
    
      

From: shamschoudhury <shamschoudhury@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People

 

Can you stop discussing religion in this forum? Let everyone practice and concentrate on one's own religion rather than criticizing other religions.

- Shams



Sent from Samsung tablet

subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is a gray area between religion itself and the way it is used by vested interest groups. In a God fearing society it is unproductive and sometimes catastrophic to bluntly criticize a religion. It antagonizes common people and the reactionary forces get an excuse to pull them on their own side. But can a society really progress without pointing out the weaknesses in a religion? Obviously, No. But if we do so, religious feelings of the believers cannot but be hurt. It is a dilemma indeed. When Dipa Mehta shows in her film "Water" the quote from Gandhi and Manusanhita side by side, the Hindutvabadis do not like it. But we come to know that Gandhi did not endorse all of sage Manu's sacred pronouncements.    



________________________________Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 8:55 AM

Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
 
  

                  Do we all agree, on this one point, that we are all opposed to religion-peddling? I fervently hope that the answer is: YES.                If so, then it is our solemn duty to understand the matter of 'religion-peddling'.                         In this business of religion -peddling it is the 'peddling' part that should command our attention.  And that requires certain in-depth and close attention to politics. Religion is a very powerful cultural artifice, and since both politics and religion deal with a community of people, there has been a mix of the two from time immemorial.  But we are constantly talking about religion-related  social symptoms, and mis-diagnosing them as 'religion'.  Why? There are several reasons.  One, mental laziness.  It takes a lot more patience and astute observation to do a political analysis. It needs historical information.
             Throughout the 16th century in Europe, for instance, the Catholic Church was fighting an intense political battle with the breaking up of the Church.  The execution of the Nolan Magus and poet, Giordano Bruno, who was not a scientist or mathematician like Nicholas Copernicus, and the persecution of astronomer Galileo, a couple of decades later are indicative of the Church's political authority under severe pressure.  It is silly to cite this as the paradigmatic 'science v. religion' struggle.  It is a singular historical event within the context of Europe.               Both Dawkins and Hitchens are being totally dishonest in their discussions against religion. Dawkins is addressing the Creationists exclusively, and Hitchens's arguments apply to the Jehadists only.  Neither has the courage and intelligence of Karen Armstrong who discards the construction of the binary opposition of 'science v. religion' and

refuses any hierarchical positioning of the two branches of knowledge.              Two, critiquing religion is a mask for communalism.  More on that later.                              Farida Majid

________________________________
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:17:30 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People  


I meant to say that religion-peddlers are shaping current affairs. 

Thanks.--- On Wed, 6/27/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:


>From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Wednesday, June 27, 2012, 10:39 PM
>
>

>Current affairs are not shaped by religion, defined by what God you adore and what afterlife you desire, alone.  Religion plays a dominant role.  As Seneca said, "Religion is believed to be true by the fools, false by the wise, and useful by the rulers".  Across the world, the dominant law is Roman formulated by Augustus Caeser, a pagan atheist.  Even the dark age and Christianity could not change it. 
>On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 5:32 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> 
>>
>>Dr. Das, I did not discuss religion per se in my last post; I was talking about the voice of the people. 
>>However, can we really stay away from religion, when day-to-day current affairs are being shaped by religion everyday? Even the voice of the people is shaped by religion.  
>>Jiten Roy
>>
>>--- On Tue, 6/26/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 10:29 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>I fail to understand why Dr. Roy initiates the endless debates on religion repeatedly.  I hope the Providence did not assign it to him.
>>>On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:58 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>Bose said:"The Bishop of Paraguay is now contending the Presidential election through a peoples' upsurge - his morality, ethical stand has taught him to represent the voices of the people of the country against imperialism, fascism and comprador bourgeoisie - that is the politics - the action part of it- that is the voice of religion - the voice of the people - the voice of the socially necessary production and the voice of the new society- This is what I meant!" 
>>>> 
>>>>It is so hard to make a head-or-tail of your statements, Mr. Bose. It appears from your above statements that you are suggesting a society could be served better by a religious social system, if I understood correctly. Other times it appears that you are saying peoples' voice should determine the social system of the society, which is basically a democratic system. 
>>>  
>>>If people have choices of a just social system, they will want a system that provides freedom, security, and good livelihood for all, without too much hard work. Can you fulfill those wishes? Is there a system that can make those wishes come true? We have seen societies under churches and clerics; we have seen societies under communism, socialism, capitalism, etc. Finally, we are here. Give me a practical system, not a dream, that will fulfill peoples' choice. 
>> 
>>The problem with the voice of the people is that - it is not unbiased, and, therefore, it may not be right either. Mostly we have misinformed people, even in the most educated societies. Above all, our world is connected by mutual interests, and we cannot ignore that. Can you? Therefore, by following the voices of the people, you may end up in a disastrous situation. Egyptians just elected a President from a religious political party. That's the peoples' choice in Egypt. Also people of Paraguay want a Bishop as President. That's a peoples' choice there. Let's wait and see the outcome. 
>> 
>>You said that there have never been comparative studies on religions. I agree fully. If we had one, maybe we could wipe out dogma and fanaticism from the religion, and we could end up with good human characteristics as religion for all. We don't have that, and, we will ever have that, because religion peddlers will not let that happen for the protection of the institution of religion. 
>> 
>>I am glad - you have opened yourself up to take part in the discussion with a bunch of Bangladeshi nincompoop creatures, as you like to call them. 
>> 
>>Why such contempt, Mr. Bose? Have you made any progress maintaining your silence over  interfaith discussions? Could you explain to me - why West Bengal is having so many outburst of religious conflicts recently (Deogaong, Nadia, etc.), right after coming out of more than 40 years of socialism? I was expecting that - people of West Bengal will possess more liberal religious views. That did not happen. Did it? I am trying to understand your ideological views.That's all.
>> 
>>Jiten Roy
>>--- On Tue, 6/26/12, Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>From: Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@gmail.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?To: "Shah Deeldar" <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>

>>>Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>, "Farida Majid" <farida_majid@hotmail.com>, "jnrsr53@yahoo.com" <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>, "Subimal Chakrabarty" <subimal@yahoo.com>, "kamalctgu@gmail.com" <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
>>>Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 12:57 AM
>>>
>>> 
>>>I am pained by the manner you construed my objective. When I say comparative religious studies is serious matters I actually meant just in the direction opposite to what you have remarked. Moulawis [ Najrul's coinage was Mou-lobhees], Pundits and Bishops would have been wiped out in a comparative religious studies environment. While discussing tradition we have to follow a historical process in discourse- that is the Science. A study with its process and evolution and not getting fixated in any dictum or a system of belief of some fixed imaginary constructed time period is actually shattering the metaphysics and bringing in the Scientific approach from within the belly of the issue. In the discourse of religion we should have the Scientific bent in mind and not the metaphysical fixated bent of mind. Religion is a science of bygone days- Science in the sense of wisdom - Vigyan [ Vishesh gyan] and  may not be the process of experimental natural science
but Science in terms of historical process. the process stopped at some finite bygone time. Metaphysical journey started thereof- we must break that limitation, transgress that. Nevertheless the historical process that pre-dated any religion is extremely important study. History is now becoming a subject of Science, with cliodynamics, process dynamics, social dynamics and analytics seeping in the study of history- just as about 50 years ago Economics became a part of Science. Religion and religious studies should be studied in the multi-track system where the life-line of one religion and that compared with the other one and then with another one need to be studied in parallel lines. A cross sectional study of any one period where projections of all these parallel lines defining that particular age is what we should examine in meticulous details- this process will take off the bias and will create a scientific attitude [Vigyan-monoskota] in tradition
studies. As Farida Apa always harps, we must explore and learn why a particular tradition took the way it really took in a particular era- this is the problematic of religious science. Morality, ethics do have a religious or metaphysical aspect whereas they also do have evolutionary and progression aspect- the question of abortion, that of women's right, the question of economic egalitarianism has shown up in the moral, ethical, value domain and actually have become a part of the religious arena. Religious study is a Scientific study- impeding that is the religious fascism that is now known as religious dogmatic metaphysics. 
>>>We definitely can talk comparative religious doctrines on chosen issues, but we should study it in their own process of development. 
>>>Almost in all religious histories social administration was once a part of the religion, so was the individual life-style and life-chore [japon kriya], we should always think and modify that as per the present requirements - this is the philosophical abstraction part of it.  
>>>The Japon kriya of today hovers around  the social and economic issues and struggles of the present day. If we fail to intervene in it, we fail to do any justice as mature beings. The Bishop of Paraguay is now contending the Presidential election through a peoples' upsurge - his morality, ethical stand has taught him to represent the voices of the people of the country against imperialism, fascism and comprador bourgeoisie - that is the politics - the action part of it- that is the voice of religion - the voice of the people - the voice of the socially necessary production and the voice of the new society- This is what I meant!  
>>>Deplorable is the wasting of time, energy, social wisdom in religious bickering that we see among Bangladeshi intellectuals [ not all], Today's value should direct individuals to find values in the Asuria upsurge, the Nandigram upsurge etc. not in which religion is having the highest spread among whom or that kind of nincompoop kiddish pranks!
>>>
>>>
>>>you think that the discussion is not serious? Do we need to bring Moulawis, Pundits and Bishops for a serious discussion? I find it odd when you propose further comparative studies about religion before we discuss the subject. In another words, you would like to conduct a comparative study but not discuss?  
>>>>I am sure you can study religion more meticulously for another thousand years and end up with brother, Christopher Hitchens's great conclusion!
>>>>"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."  
>>>>Since you know so much about religion, please enlighten us if you care! That would be really helpful. Thank you.
>>>>-SD  
>>>>
>>>>"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS 
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>> From: Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@gmail.com>
>>>>To: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
>>>>Cc: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:57 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>To Subimal and others: 
>>>>Talking about religion is serious stuff. We do not have comparative religious studies in the entire South Asia simply because the ruling forces did not want it. A comparative religious study would create bunches and sets of religiously neutral atheists and this fact is known by our comprador rulers much more than we can ever  think, they knew it better. Religion is traditional study and we ought to follow it very meticulously.  
>>>>That is way beside the point that a country and her intellectuals are doomed to being permanently nincompoop bringing every discussion down to religious differences. It would be smart to study all religions with equal gusto. I find those who generally respond here have zilch knowledge about the religions other than his. This is disparaging and disgusting. It is very unfortunate that these petty squabbles by some utterly nincompoop creatures are more among Bangladeshi intelligentsia. Still, this stale thing fascinates them and especially those who are far from the reality ground of Asuria upsurge or the almost daily upsurges of Bangladeshi toiling and producing masses. These NRBs have stolen their way out of Bangladesh's surplus and now are here debating the track that would doom Bangladesh.
>>>>
>>>>On 24 June 2012 00:41, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>          Hello! Subimal, the title of the article you wrote for "Ogrobeej" sounds good.  Send us a link.          Has anyone of you ever paused to ponder: "Where did this f****ing idea of "critiquing" religions come from?" Certainly not from our neck of the world or from our old and various traditions.  I have done the pondering. Here is an excerpt from my forthcoming article on Imperial History Writing ---
>>>>>         Critiquing of religions is a futile exercise, and in fact, a diversionary tactics. WHAT judgmental comments Macaulay, Toynbee, et al made on Indian religions is of very little substance, most historians now agree. WHY they engaged in critiquing Indian religions as if religions are static, monolithic and divorced from historical developments had to do with their innate racist agenda.  There was also evangelicalism, the everpresent handmaiden of European Imperialism. This agenda itself has a genealogy that grew with the changing concerns of East India Company's activities in India. Up until 18th century India was still the First World, and British Fortune Seekers, other than Company men, would sojourn to India for better lives, some of whom have been described as the White Moghuls by William Dalrymple in his book of that title. 
>>>>>   More to follow.                                                         farida apa
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: subimal@yahoo.comDate: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:05:58 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely? 
>>>>>
>>>>>1. I know what you mean: when you take care of the fundamental needs of common people and build an exploitation-free society, religion does not remain a dominant political force any more. 
>>>>>But can you give me even one example of a historical period when religion was not talked about (praised and critiqued as well) by great thinkers? Religion is such a powerful concept and institution (sometimes all consuming) that it cannot and should not be ignored. We have seen how India was divided on the basis of religion. And we are still suffering. We have also seen the rise of the fundamentalist Hindutwabadis. Look around, you will see a lot more.  
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Why should we be in denial and assume that the threats from religious fundamentalists and fanatics will go away naturally?
>>>>>Mukto-mona is a forum consisting of educated (I mean good degree holders) people. Many of the members are about to retire or already retired. Most of them probably live in comfort zones in all respects. This has provided them with almost unlimited leisure that they can afford to utilize to engage in "intellectual" exercises. Many of them are not ready at all to do so. But they do it as they have nothing else to do. They do it with confidence which comes from, for example, his Ph.D in civil engineering. Being inspired by Dr. Shoumyo Dasgupta, I had to write an article titled "Antorjaale kothokota: jaale bondee bibek o mukto chinta" for Ogrobeej that was edited by him a few years ago. I will never tell my less educated religious relatives and friends that I am an atheist. But Mukto-mona is a forum where I dare do this. But nobody can complain that I have ever shown any kind of profanity in any of my writings.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. My understanding is that religion is man made and has been made to serve the interests of the selected groups of a society. In that it can be exploitative. Then why not to critique it if we can critique any other human innovations or thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>4. I am also aware of the concern expressed by you and Dr. Farida Majid that discussions about religion involve the risk of further dividing the society on communal basis and also strengthening the hands of the fundamentalist and fanatic political forces.But we have a problem. The forum is visited by people of different kinds. Many come here with hidden agenda and those are reflected in their posts although they try to be fair and real free thinkers.
>>>>>
>>>>>5. Finally, I will repeat what I have said before: a person with hidden agenda---communalist, political, or ideological--- has no moral rights to talk against some one else's religion.   
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>From: Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@yahoo.com>
>>>>>To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>>Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 12:32 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>A country, her culture, the civilization can never become mature and can never gain respects from the world till it comes out the filthy and slimy cocoon of religious debates. It is very unfortunate when debate about religion is dumped throughout the world Bangladeshi intellectuals [ a tiny and yet vocal minority though] still cracks their head on it. It is disparaging! Act your age! please, please grow up and look at the problems of the people, their livelihood, their quotidian struggle against injustice, economic inequalities, imperialism and hegemonism. Please walk with the people who produce, who toil, who create wealth and stop peering beneath their pants.  
>>>>>From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 3:14 AM
>>>>>Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>             It is not easy to make sense with cave-dwellers, especially the kind that hangs upside down from the roof of the cave. The visionary power of these people are often known as "blind as a bat."  I don't expect Jiten Roy to know idiomatic English.  I only wish he was a little more honest.             "Where do you see "Islam-bashing" in my statement", charges Jiten Roy.  The question I should be asking: Where did he "see" that I saw Islam-bashing in his statement?  He did not see it. He is just blindly casting a stone in the dark. Or, just plain lying.                I charged mukto-mona for Islam bashing for years, pleading in the beginning (in the early 1992-93, when activities of Nirmul Committee were in full swing) that this kind of crude attacks on the religion of Islam is going to be counter-productive to our stand against the Jamaat.  It will only encourage Jamaat to equate themselves
with Islam.  I got blasted by the Islam-bashers calling me all kinds of ugly names. No logic, no appeal to scientific thinking or citation of history of the humanities -- nothing worked to change their obstinate view.                 That was then. {People curious can look up my article "Talibanization of the Cyberspace  by the Crypto-Islamists." Quotation from this article is used in the biography of Beatles George Harrison, "And the Guitar Gently Weeps."}                  And this is now.  Due to his ignorance of the RSS/BJP anti-Muslim propaganda literature circulated at communal riot-instigating rallies in India, Jiten Roy does not realize that a lot of what he puts forth echoes that language. An example of what I mean is right here on this page -- in the lines he has written -- about Muslims consisting of "poor and backward population" and they being exploited by the fundamentalists, and somehow that is the cause
of "faster growth of Muslim population of the world."                   Even a deaf, mute and 'blind as a bat' will have difficulty following the logic of poor backward Muslim population being converted to Islam by the fundamentalists and thereby causing Islam to be the fastest growing religion in the world.                  Curiously, there is no opinion or view on SECULARISM.  The reason is nether Q. Rahman nor Jiten Roy are secular despite their masks.  They are both communal to the core. The word "religion" has many meanings in many contexts.  Here in this page the word 'religion' connotes communalism.                                            Farida Majid
>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:15:02 -0700Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?  
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Where do you see "Islam-bashing" in my statement, which I made after Q. Rahman boasted that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth? 
>>>>> 
>>>>>In my last response, I have pointed out some of the reasons why Islam is growing faster than Christianity. One reason I gave was the Christian population growth deceleration due to various reasons, and then I said faster growing religion also brings faster growing problems. Let me explain why. 
>>>>>  
>>>>>Faster growth in Islam is due to faster growth in Muslim population in the world. Unfortunately, most of the growth is happening in the poor and backward population. Islamists/fundamentalists are taking advantage of all these poor and desperate people. This is causing enormous problem everywhere else, including Islamic countries, like Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. In USA, highest rate of conversion to Islam is in the Prison. Q. Rahman is right when he said that it's not the religion - it's the people, who make troubles using religion. I concur with him completely - but, the fact that - those trouble makers are growing faster rate also with the faster growth of the religion. That was my point. In fact, you are also talking about the same problem. I do not expect blanket statement like "Islam Bashing" from you. If you do so, you will be no different from Mohiuddin Anwar, who went as far as saying that critics are "Enemy of Islam." 
>>>>>  
>>>>>Jiten Roy--- On Wed, 6/20/12, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote: 
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
>>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 10:19 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>              Can we discuss religion freely?         As far as I am concerned, you and the whole bunch of mukto-mona guys have done absolutely nothing but discuss "religion" endlessly and fruitlessly. 97% of these so-called discussions for the last 10-12 years have been on Islam-bashing. The rest were pro-Islamic rehashes.  None of them led to any general enlightenment. No one seems to have progressed to any new level of thinking. Meanwhile, outside the mukto-mona 'religion-locked' thinking, the world has gone on and changed in various ways.             I, on the other hand, had been fighting for the State guarantee of fundamental rights of individual citizen's religious freedom.  A modern nation  founded on the principle of SECULARISM provides that guarantee.  In this context,secularism is a constitutional issue, not a religious issue. No matter how much Shah Abdul Hannan and Q. Rahman shout and scream, the

meaning of 'secularism' is not open to their treacherous, fraudulent interpretation. Secularism is an integral part of the Constitution of Bangladesh.  We should collectively resist all and sundry attempts to vandalize the Constitution of Bangladesh. The brave struggle of Muktijuddho continues until Constitutional Secularism of Bangladesh is mischief-free and blemish-ridden.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             No doubt we will be talking about it again. I will explain further if any one has a sincere question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             Bye for
now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             Farida Majid
>>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:21:45 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely? 
>>>>>>Now, I am so sorry that I made a boo-boo in my last hurried comment, as shown bellow:  
>>>>>>"As you know - the fasted growing religion has been the fasted growing problem on earth also."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I wrote "fasted" instead of fastest. Thanks to Dr. Das and others who pointed out my mistake. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>In response to my above statement, Mr. Q. Rahman said the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Growth did not cause any problem. Ignorance and politics did. Don't think this comment was based on "Logic". Mostly on assumptions and perception. Specifically if you live in the US,it became "Kosher" to talk about Islam this way (Without any rational). 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>In his response, Mr. Q. Rahman may have revealed his inner self. He is saying that - one cannot say whatever he/she likes about Islam from other places, except USA. He is right; people are already gagged by fanatics everywhere else  to say anything against Islam. He appears to be unhappy about the USA, where people are not yet gagged. I used to think him as a special breed of religious people, as he often preaches free-speech. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>Anyway, fanatic people (religious/ideological/political) may present themselves as innocent and harmless, on the surface, but inside they hide monsters. Once you hurt their feelings, they could be quite dangerous.  We need to be cautious about these people; most of them are not normal thinking people. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>Jiten Roy 
>>>>>>--- On Tue, 6/19/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 12:35 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>1. The propaganda that Islam is in danger still works. It is one of the agenda of Jamaat-BNPalliance and their intellectuals to keep Islam safe. Remember KhaledaZia's cautionary words uttered a few years ago that if AL came to power, one would hear "uludhwoni" in mosques.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Bngladesh Khaleda Zia was largely ignored until massive failures of current administration came to surface. I think BNP is getting some popularity in last 12 months. Not because they have said or done anything special but people are frustrated by some activities of current admin. Some of it is normal but some failures are hand to ignore. The comment about ulu in masjid is WRONG. It is scare mongering and people ignored such "tactics". I am glad they did that. I abhor such leaders who play with religion to score political points. Khaleda was criticized for such comments and did not make any of it. Islamic as well as Jihadist movements still to a large extent gain momentum from selling this slogan.>>>>>>>> Not in Bangladesh. Leading imams played a great role in last 5-6 years openly criticizing violence in the name of Islam and most people accepted it. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I googled a little bit. The cyber world is full of hateful articles, vacuous boast, and lies. I>>>>>>>> Well if you like to know little bit about authentic Islam, let me know. The political lies and hateful stuff is for ignorant people. As I tried to explain a fundamental issue on Islam and violence in my recent post.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>One Christian group has termed what you are saying about growth of Islam as a myth. >>>>>>>>>> You can view government polls. Pew and gallup to get an accurate picture. Christian groups (Most of them) are more fanatic that any Muslim groups you know. ;-)Does growth in population mean any thing (except that increase the number of voters) if they will be on the earth not to be taken care of properly by the states and they will be kept in dark simply to act as the "gravitational pull" on the rest of the society when it should aspire to rise above hunger, illiteracy, superstition, fanaticism>>>>>>>> With due respect, I think you are over reacting a bit. I was replying to a comment that, Islam is in danger. I firmly think it is not. Some ignorant people try to rally people up saying such garbage. Anyone with some knowledge of history knows the strength of Islam is not in number but quality of people. If you want talk about number, let me remind you
that, ONLY 17 men overcame the army of Laxman Sen of Bengal!! Those who knows a bit about scriptures knows, our times were foretold by prophet Muhammad (PBUH) saying we'll great in number but still suffer for lack of true faith. I am witnessing that and accept it. No need to panic over everything. My faith does not depend on conditions of others. It depends on me!! But I am nervous about the fact that religions are in a race>>>>>>> Religion is not an Olympic event. :-)Islam is growing fastest, it is a fact. But none of us should talk about it as some sort of sporting event. I think we left our teen years some decades ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am nervous because this has the potential to make the world more divisive.>>>>>>>>> As long we are accepting of other faiths and calm about it. It does not make any difference. I have Hindu friends who depend on me more than some of their own family members and rely on my opinions. We accept each other as we are !!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I wish we all could keep religion confined to our spiritual life. Religion itself deserves more freedom and effort to internationalize it will bring more havoc for the world.>>>>>>>> Since some of my posts had some verses from the Qur'an, I have received some very "Offensive" remarks from this esteemed forum. Albeit I only used those verses as sources of my comments. That was my intention and most people read too much into it. As if by some magical power, I'll transform them into hajis!! :-DFirst I was shocked but later had to laugh at it. All those "Maulana" comments and "Communal" comments were over some verses of the Qur'an and they were very normal commentaries. I think as people we (ALL OF US) have to relax a bit more and be more accepting of others. I quoted verses from Veda as well and people were shocked!!  WHY??? I am very comfortable with my faith. I harbor nothing against other faith and my faith made me a better person. So my very
innocent sharing made a lot of waves here. It says a lot about US. So as long we allow people to be themselves, we'll be cool. I have visited durga puja mandaps many times and learnt stories behind the events. It did not diminish my faith but helped me to become a more understanding person. One way to achieve this is to decouple religion from politics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was reading a book by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad. He mentioned his reaction when he heard the term "Pakistan". He said it was UN-Islamic. He provided verses from the Qur'an (He was a great scholar of Islam and mother tongue was Arabic) showing Allah (SWT) made the whole world ready for prayer or "Pure". Calling a certain landscape "Pure land" (Thus implying rest is unpure) is closer to Hindu philosophy than what Islam teaches us. He tried his level best to stop "Partition" but failed because of fanatics from both sides stopped him. Had we know what Islam actually says, people would have looked up to us as "Peace makers" not scared hearing some verses of the Qur'an. As I said many times, Muslims are to blame for it mostly. As you know - the fasted growing religion has been the fasted growing problem on earth also.>>>>>>> Growth did not cause any problem. Ignorance and politics did. Don't think this comment was based on "Logic". Mostly on
assumptions and perception. Specifically if you live in the US,it became "Kosher" to talk about Islam this way (Without any rational). I'll rest now.....Shalom!-----Original Message-----From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:35 amSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Islam may be the fasted growing religion because of some obvious reasons, such as - Christians are not getting married lately or getting married late in their lives and having less number of children compared to Muslims. Also, you cannot become Christian by birth; you need to be baptized into it. 
>>>>>>>Subimal Chakraborty is right – it's not the quantity, it's the quality that matters in the end.  As you know - the fasted growing religion has been the fasted growing problem on earth also.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>Jiten Roy
>>>>>>>--- On Sun, 6/17/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>>To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>>>>>Date: Sunday, June 17, 2012, 8:31 PM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>1. The propaganda that Islam is in danger still works. It is one of the agenda of Jamaat-BNPalliance and their intellectuals to keep Islam safe. Remember KhaledaZia's cautionary words uttered a few years ago that if AL came to power, one would hear "uludhwoni" in mosques. Islamic as well as Jihadist movements still to a large extent gain momentum from selling this slogan. Even a soft version of this propaganda is making many peaceful and peace-loving Muslims overconscious as Muslims and inspiring them to adop orthodox life style in personal life. This is happening to other religious groups to various extents.    
>>>>>>>>2. After reading your post,I googled a little bit. The cyber world is full of hateful articles, vacuous boast, and lies. It is misleading as well as interesting. By reading this it is hard to draw a conclusion on actually what is actually going on in the growth of religions. One Christian group has termed what you are saying about growth of Islam as a myth. 
>>>>>>>>3. Growth of a religion may come from various sources: immigration, conversion---forced as well as deliberate, birth rate, etc. As some one born into a Hindu family, I will subconsciously if not consciously feel good to know that Hindu population is growing in the whole world. Does growth in population mean any thing (except that increase the number of voters) if they will be on the earth not to be taken care of properly by the states and they will be kept in dark simply to act as the "gravitational pull" on the rest of the society when it should aspire to rise above hunger, illiteracy, superstition, fanaticism, and so on? I remember a concluding line from one of Sarat Chatterjee's short stories: the giant dinosaur has been extinct, but the cockroach is still living. But what kind of living is this! Sarat here has pointed to the boast about Sanatan Hindu Dharma that has been persecuting it's own people and is still surviving. 
>>>>>>>>4. I am not sure if Islam or any other religion is in danger or not. But I am nervous about the fact that religions are in a race.I am nervous because this has the potential to make the world more divisive. I wish we all could keep religion confined to our spiritual life. Religion itself deserves more freedom and effort to internationalize it will bring more havoc for the world. Programs of advancement, prosperity, and liberation should be premised on poverty, illiteracy, exploitation, inequality, persecution, oppression, etc. among the humans in general. One way to achieve this is to decouple religion from politics. 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
>>>>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:36 PM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am not sure what cave you have been living for past twenty years. With global jihad on march, country boundaries have become non relevant. If zealots can find any religious issue, people will cross the border and fight without even knowing what they are really fighting for. Only mantra they need is that "Islam is in danger". That is the reality. This is not in 70's, my friend.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You probably forgot that, I AM a Muslim. I do mix with load of Muslims and non-Muslims. The "Islam is in danger" used to work during Pakistan era, they don't anymore.
>>>>>>>>The fact is Islam is NOT in danger. Some Muslims occasionally are. As we are witnessing with the Rohingas and Kashmiries in our region. As far Islam is concern, it is the fastest growing faith in the world and growing fastest in the western world. Where no one can be forced and people are FREE to make up their minds about religion. Lastly, it is entirely possible I have some disagreement with you or other members. Why that "Disagreement" necessitates me to relocate in a CAVE??? If you are not a Muslim or do not have a university degree in Islam, try not to play "Islam expert" with me. It ain't Fox news. If you have an opinion, it would be helpful if you chose to share sources of your information. That would make your "Opinions" more credible. Not interested in petty personal attacks. Welcome mature discussion based on logic, knowledge and tolerance of each other. Shalom! 
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Dev Saha <devsaha5@yahoo.com> To: qar <qrahman@netscape.net> Cc: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>"As far as Indians helping Tamils in Sri Lanka was claimed by people of Sri Lanka."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What would you expect? -Srilankans claiming Bangladeshis helping Tamils?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Occasionally I have seen few Pakistanis and Indians who really LIKE Bengalis but NEVER ahead of their own people!!"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am not sure what cave you have been living for past twenty years. With global jihad on march, country boundaries have become non relevant. If zealots can find any religious issue, people will cross the border and fight without even knowing what they are really fighting for. Only mantra they need is that "Islam is in danger". That is the reality. This is not in 70's, my friend.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-Dev
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--- On Sun, 6/17/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
>>>>>>>>>To: devsaha5@yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>Date: Sunday, June 17, 2012, 9:04 AM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You must be joking! Ask BNP and Jamat cadres. The love is not lost yet. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have known many Indians and Pakistanis in my life. However I cannot remember meeting anyone even proposing putting interest of Bangladesh ahead of their own respective countries. It makes me VERY sad when confront people from my own country who regularly put (OR propose to put) Indian or Pakistani interest ahead of ours. They also become advocate for these nations. Occasionally I have seen few Pakistanis and Indians who really LIKE Bengalis but NEVER ahead of their own people!! I do not know why we have so many Pakistani rajakars and Indian Rajakars among us? Our politicians compete to show their eagerness to serve their masters and rarely acknowledge the very people who voted them to power. I harbor no bad feelings for most Pakistanis or Indians and am treated fairly by both people most of the time. It seems like a lot of us have a lot of hate for a lot of people in their hearts. I do not think it is healthy... As far as Indians
helping Tamils in Sri Lanka was claimed by people of Sri Lanka. If you know about Indian clandestine operational







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