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Sunday, December 1, 2013

[mukto-mona]



Dear Muktamona,
Please include me in your mail list.
Thanks.


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[mukto-mona] (unknown)

I was trying to register but unable to find the option for new registration. Please can you help me with that. Thanks .


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[mukto-mona] Fwd: Great Battles: 1971 (Aired: August 2005)





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Re: [mukto-mona] Sajeeb Wazed Joy: The Dark Life Behind The Scene



All rubbish propaganda!
Joy possesses thousand times better character than some other princes of Bangladesh.




On Sunday, December 1, 2013 10:46 PM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I do not think this kind of propaganda would help the cause of the fanatics who are doing it. Even if everything in the video were factual, it does not damage much of the so-called image of Bangladesh. For Awami League, Joy is not a candidate; he is working only for promoting that party.
 
Besides, what is the 'image of Bangladesh' in the outside world? For just one example, the country talks about 3 million murdered in 1971, yet does not punish any of the murderers in more than 40 years, nor does it secure compensation, or even an apology, from any of the murderers! With this kind of value the country giving to its 3 million lives, Bangladesh has no respectable image to people who care about the image of any country/society.
 
Well Bangladesh is a jungle; all sides are doing inappropriate things. But I think, with the IT skills of people like Joy, Awami League can deliver the patriotic fervor of 1971 to the nation, which would definitely help that party and its associated progressive allies.
 
SuBain

=========================================
From: Anis Ahmed <anis.ahmed@netzero.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 1, 2013 6:40 AM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Sajeeb Wazed Joy: The Dark Life Behind The Scene

 
Sajeeb Wazed Joy: The Dark Life Behind The Scene
 
The Secret Stories of Writ, Wine, Women and Weapon
 
ইউটিউবে দেখুনঃ http://youtu.be/WX-ugZ2VSpo
 
 
সময়ের সাক্ষী - ShomoyerShakkhi.com এবার উপস্থাপন করল প্রধানমন্ত্রীর প্রচারমুখী আইটি উপদেষ্টা ও তথাকথিত 'বিজ্ঞানী' সজীব ওয়াজেদ জয়ের পর্দার অন্তরালের অন্ধকার জীবন, যার মূল উপাদান অপরাধ, অপসংস্কৃতি, উচ্ছৃংখলতা ও উম্মত্ততা। উম্মোচিত হল অস্ত্রবহন, মদ্যপান সহ একের পর এক মামলায় যুক্তরাষ্ট্রের আদালতে আসামীর কাঠগড়ায় দাঁড়িয়ে বহির্বিশ্বে দেশের ভাবমূর্তি বিনাশের গল্প।

এটি সজীব ওয়াজেদ জয়ের উপর সময়ের সাক্ষীর অনুসন্ধানী ও তথ্যপ্রমাণ ভিত্তিক সিরিজ প্রকাশনার প্রথম পর্ব।
 
ইউটিউবে দেখুনঃ http://youtu.be/WX-ugZ2VSpo






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               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques



I agree with Mr Rehman. Islam as a religion refuses to accept the right to the existence of other religions and lines of thought. Such attitude is not acceptable to a pluralistic world.

Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from !DEA

From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
Sender: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 20:45:17 +0000 (GMT)
To: <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 

I have to interject here in the conversation between QR and Jiten Roy. 

The 'Vatican City' is not a city like Jeddah or Riyadh or Dhaka. It is a walled compound enclosing the Sistine chapel, Vatican Museum, Pope's residence and a large tarmacked ground where Pope holds Easter Mass and addresses the Christmas gathering. The total area may be between 15 and 20 acres of land. It is much smaller than many stately homes in England. Only people who live within the 'Vatican City' compound are cardinals and bishops. Ancillary workers who work in the 'Vatican City' live just outside the compound. 

Only about two months ago, I was on holiday in Rome and spent almost a whole day in the Vatican City. Although I am a Muslim, there was no restriction whatsoever in my going into the Sistine chapel (which is like Al Kaaba in Makkah). Any talk of restricting other religious followers in the Vatican City does not arise at all. (I have photos of gorgeous Sistine chapel. I can send them if somebody wants them.)  Comparing the welcoming attitude of the Vatican City and the restrictions for the non-Muslims in the whole of Makkah city having Al Kaaba makes me feel ashamed as a Muslim. 
I worked for about three years in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia as a British Radiation Consultant and saw by my own eyes how restrictive life is for other religions. In the luxurious expatriate compound housing experts from England, America, Canada, Germany etc, Christians are not even allowed to celebrate the Christmas Day! On Christmas Day, the devout Christians shut doors, windows etc, pull curtains as much as possible and in the dimly-lit rooms they take their Christmas dinners. I am ashamed of the behaviour of the Saudi State. So, please do not try to justify such inhuman and barbaric behaviour.

- A Rahman 


From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013, 1:08
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 
During the Caliphate of Umar bin Khattab, all "native non Muslims were either annihilated or driven out of Arabian land.  Even today, the policy of Muslim countries discourage non Muslims to live in there. 


On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 3:07 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
"The major difference between Angola and Saudi Arabia is there are NO native non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia."


Do you know why there is no non-Muslim native in Saudi-Arabia? It's illegal. It's also illegal to carry out proselytizing activities for other religions in Saudi. But, it's OK with Saudi Arabia to spend billions of dollars to carry out Islamic proselytizing activities in other countries around the world. What a great ethical balance!

You said: "Saudi Arabia considers itself as "Vatican"."

Mr. QR, Vatican City is a "city" in Italy, like Jeddah in Saudi Arabia. Italy did not ban any religion. Please do not lose your mind to defend something indefensible. More you try, more it reveals your bigotry and ignorance.

Jiten Roy



On Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:39 AM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
In fact, my ethical mind tells me that - I cannot give a pass for such discrimination in one country, for whatever reason, and object it in other countries. That's discrimination, in my view. Therefore, I cannot blame or protest religious discrimination in Angola. I have no right to do so.

>>>>>>>>>>> Very interesting way of looking at things.

With due respect, you are probably aware that whatever we say here are mostly symbolic. As far as I know you do not have the power to influence Angola or Saudi Arabia.

The major difference between Angola and Saudi Arabia is there are NO native non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia. However there are NATIVE Angolans who are Muslims. They have no where else to go but to stay in THEIR country.

Saudi Arabia considers itself as "Vatican". So they set up the bar higher than rest of the Islamic countries. Except Saudi Arabia I do not know of any country which prohibits establishing religious temples or churches in them. There are Muslim countries (UAE, Turkey etc) which donated land for building churches. But they do not make news and you do not know about them.

I understand your position but it is not an informed one. It is based on fictional perception. However I respect it as "Your opinion".

Here is a little bit about this topic...


Muslim Community in Madagascar Donate Land for Christian Church

Teresa Neumann Reporting : Mar 8, 2006 : The Living Church

The Living Church Foundation reports that members of the Muslim community in a suburb of Ambilobe, Madagascar, have donated land to the Anglican Diocese of Antsiranana in the Province of the Indian Ocean.
Map of Madagascar "I could not believe my ears," the Bishop of Antsiranana, the Rt. Rev. Roger Chung, said in an official release published by the telecommunications department of the Anglican Communion Office. "But God's ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts, says the Book of Isaiah."
According to the chairman of the new parish, Diogene Mahavavy, the Muslim community donated the land after becoming aware of the difficulties that the Anglicans were having in obtaining a plot of land on which to build a new suburban church.
The people of Ambilobe are from the Antakarana tribe, which is predominantly Muslim, Mr. Mahavavy said, but evangelization in the region has resulted in many families having both Muslim and Christian members; mutual support is common.











Source: http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=2222






My two cents...

Shalom!










-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 6:36 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 

@ Mr. Chakraborty:

I want to stick to the broader issue – which is - religious discrimination; everything else stems from it.

The world has lost the right to take moral high ground on religious discrimination issue thousands of years back.

I did not say – religious discrimination anywhere is ethical or right; not at all. In fact, my ethical mind tells me that - I cannot give a pass for such discrimination in one country, for whatever reason, and object it in other countries. That's discrimination, in my view. Therefore, I cannot blame or protest religious discrimination in Angola. I have no right to do so. I hope you will understand my position now. And, please do not bring other ancillary issues into this discussion. That's just distraction.

Jiten Roy


On Friday, November 29, 2013 6:27 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
As a matter of fact my position should have been clear from my first post in which I talked about possible disastrous effect of the chain reaction of retaliation by competing countries by banning rival religions. 
Your 'appropriate' judgment seems to be unethical. Angola has taken away the religious rights of some groups within Angola. Would it not be unethical for another country to take away the religious rights of some other groups? Are you not justifying the demolition of temples in Bangladesh as a reaction to demolition of the Babri Mosque in India? 
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 29, 2013, at 10:47 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 


Yes, Mr. Chakraborty, now I can understand your point.  You have generalized your view in the last post. Dr. Bain promotes generalized views like, "Barbaric acts should not be retaliated with barbaric acts," and you support it.  Both of you identify something as barbaric act, but do not support similar reaction to that. This is exactly Gandhism, whether you realize it or not.

You said, "My point is: Angola has banned Islam, so another country will have to retaliate by banning Christianity---that cannot be a wise step."

Now, I can agree with you - this is an extreme reaction, but not totally inappropriate in the realm of appropriate reactions. 

Saudi Arabia has practiced religious discrimination for thousands of years, and the world has looked the other way, which has resulted the spreading of religious discrimination (virus) in other Muslim majority countries too. If you think clearly you will have no difficulty to see the host country for this virus. I am puzzled by the fact that you guys have so much difficulty to see this reality. And, in that line of thinking, I judge Angolan action as extreme, but not inappropriate.

Jiten Roy









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Re: [mukto-mona] Please accept my sincere ‘Thanks’, I really appreciate>>>>>Ref: ‘How Islamists stole a hearing’ etc.



"Minority population is dwindling in Bangladesh. It was about 20% in 1972 and now it is about 10%. About 49 million Hindus are missing,"- I strongly suspect that this demographic data is cooked up by the Govt. bureau of Statistics to please Arabian masters abroad.  Besides, Buddhists also constituted ninety percent of the population before the Sen dynasty.  Who knows, history might be repeated.


On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 5:51 AM, Sitangshu Guha <guhasb@gmail.com> wrote:
 

Dear Friends:

I saw a lot of reactions, both positive & negative, for me or against me, in these forums on an article forwarded by me titled, 'How Islamists stole a hearing' etc. I learnt in a hard way not to react with any reactions, but at this time I felt that I should thank you guys for your valuable time and please accept my sincere 'Thanks', I really appreciate.

 

As far as Hindu or religious minority persecution is concerned, it is a routine in Bangladesh and I guarantee, all parties are involved in that.  I always ask two questions to all and want answers:

 

In 42 years history of Bangladesh thousands of temples/ deities were destroyed but there is no such instances that a single perpetrators were punished! If you destroy/burn a bus; you will be arrested and prosecuted. But if you destroy/burn a temple, you can 'walk free'.  During Durga Puja in Oct 1972 (2nd Day) all temples & deities were attacked, some destroyed, that was the beginning, nobody was prosecuted. Still today same thing is going on, nobody is prosecuted or punished. We call it, 'culture of impunity'. Answer me, why?

 

Minority population is dwindling in Bangladesh. It was about 20% in 1972 and now it is about 10%. About 49 million Hindus are missing, where are they? Remember, the chairman of the foreign relations committee also cited the figure. Can anybody tell me what is going on? Please talk your mind, not politics!

 

We know, Bangladesh is a Muslim majority, and we also know in Muslim majority, virtually minority just vanishes and the country become a brut country like Pakistan or Iran or Saudi Arabia. Bangladesh is our motherland, we want it to be secular and we want to live there with dignity & honor, not at somebody's mercy!

 

Just two days before one Mr. Zobair wrote a letter to Ms. Brooks, writer of that article, I also got a copy and wrote him back. I guess I should share some parts of that to you all, unfortunately, that gentleman did not answer me back.  Please read:

 

Mr. Zobair: I read your reply to Ms. Brooks and frankly speaking, I was not surprised, because people like you are never capable of seeing the whole picture. So, its' not your fault, it is the system in which you are grown. -----

 

I think most of the people give AL the credit to be secular in comparison to BNP-Jamat-Hefazot; which is 100% right. You are talking about minority persecution during AL; you are right, but please tell me, during which government minorities were not persecuted in Bangladesh? More widely, in which Muslim countries non-Muslims are growing? Please find out the reason, and don't blame everybody, think why?

 

I was born & brought up in Bangladesh and I know your mindset! Unfortunately what we were taught in schools most of which are half-truth and a half-truth is a complete lie. Let me give an example, in 1965 we were taught in school that India was defeated by Pakistan miserably! Now you know what a lie was that! You must know A.R Rahman, who own two Oscars and he is a Muslim. You know why? Reason is simple, he lives in non-Muslim democratic society and you must admit that in a religion based country nothing grows and that is the main reason why we want Bangladesh get out of the clutches of the militant Islamists! -------

 

You are talking about or against the war crime tribunals, well that is also understandable on your part. Ali Riaz answered that part definitely in a recent hearing in Washington and he said, 'with all those flaws still justice should be served and it is long overdue'.

 

Mr. Zobair, life is beautiful, explore it and find the most of it, if you can. But if you are boxed, and your mind is full of hatred, you will not see the beauty.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Adding one more line, in non-Muslims countries Muslims are better off (it should be the way) than their own Islamic hub; now it is the turn of the Muslims to show the other way; and let that be started from Bangladesh?

Thanks a lot,

Sitangshu Guha

NY.


শিতাংশু গুহ 




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Re: [mukto-mona] Sajeeb Wazed Joy: The Dark Life Behind The Scene



I do not think this kind of propaganda would help the cause of the fanatics who are doing it. Even if everything in the video were factual, it does not damage much of the so-called image of Bangladesh. For Awami League, Joy is not a candidate; he is working only for promoting that party.
 
Besides, what is the 'image of Bangladesh' in the outside world? For just one example, the country talks about 3 million murdered in 1971, yet does not punish any of the murderers in more than 40 years, nor does it secure compensation, or even an apology, from any of the murderers! With this kind of value the country giving to its 3 million lives, Bangladesh has no respectable image to people who care about the image of any country/society.
 
Well Bangladesh is a jungle; all sides are doing inappropriate things. But I think, with the IT skills of people like Joy, Awami League can deliver the patriotic fervor of 1971 to the nation, which would definitely help that party and its associated progressive allies.
 
SuBain

=========================================
From: Anis Ahmed <anis.ahmed@netzero.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 1, 2013 6:40 AM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Sajeeb Wazed Joy: The Dark Life Behind The Scene

 
Sajeeb Wazed Joy: The Dark Life Behind The Scene
 
The Secret Stories of Writ, Wine, Women and Weapon
 
ইউটিউবে দেখুনঃ http://youtu.be/WX-ugZ2VSpo
 
 
সময়ের সাক্ষী - ShomoyerShakkhi.com এবার উপস্থাপন করল প্রধানমন্ত্রীর প্রচারমুখী আইটি উপদেষ্টা ও তথাকথিত 'বিজ্ঞানী' সজীব ওয়াজেদ জয়ের পর্দার অন্তরালের অন্ধকার জীবন, যার মূল উপাদান অপরাধ, অপসংস্কৃতি, উচ্ছৃংখলতা ও উম্মত্ততা। উম্মোচিত হল অস্ত্রবহন, মদ্যপান সহ একের পর এক মামলায় যুক্তরাষ্ট্রের আদালতে আসামীর কাঠগড়ায় দাঁড়িয়ে বহির্বিশ্বে দেশের ভাবমূর্তি বিনাশের গল্প।

এটি সজীব ওয়াজেদ জয়ের উপর সময়ের সাক্ষীর অনুসন্ধানী ও তথ্যপ্রমাণ ভিত্তিক সিরিজ প্রকাশনার প্রথম পর্ব।
 
ইউটিউবে দেখুনঃ http://youtu.be/WX-ugZ2VSpo




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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques



Dear All, 

A few minutes ago, I posted my experience in Saudi Arabia. That country holds extremist religious views and is blatantly discriminatory to non-Muslims or even to Muslims of non-Arab origin. But, as some members had mentioned here, Saudis take full advantage of the liberal atmosphere of the West. 
The reason why Saudi Arabia is inhumanely and obscenely discriminatory to non-Muslims is that the King considers himself as the custodian of two holy mosques of Islam and, in his parochial view, he thinks non-Muslims must be stopped in Islam's home ground; otherwise Islam will die! Non-Muslims are allowed to work in Saudi Arabia, except in Makkah and Madina. The State does not allow building any church or temple or any other place of worship. If one wants to worship, it must be done in the confines of one's own house and away from public view i.e. windows, doors etc must be closed and covered up!

- A Rahman

From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2013, 10:33
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 
I am not Saudi. As far as I know Hindus, Christians etc are permitted to practice religion but not allowed to build permanent structures (all other Muslim countries do allow that as well). It is an Saudi only exception, so maybe a expert in Saudi Arabia can explain it better. I am only sharing what others told me about it.

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 30, 2013 2:31 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 
I am not sure Mr. QR is justifying Saudi role in prohibiting religious activities of the non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia. I hope he is not. A Hindu goes to Saudi Arabia, say, for two years. Does he have to forego his religious needs during his stay in SA? What a primitive logic! It is shameless too. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 30, 2013, at 9:14 AM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
In fact, my ethical mind tells me that - I cannot give a pass for such discrimination in one country, for whatever reason, and object it in other countries. That's discrimination, in my view. Therefore, I cannot blame or protest religious discrimination in Angola. I have no right to do so.

>>>>>>>>>>> Very interesting way of looking at things.

With due respect, you are probably aware that whatever we say here are mostly symbolic. As far as I know you do not have the power to influence Angola or Saudi Arabia.

The major difference between Angola and Saudi Arabia is there are NO native non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia. However there are NATIVE Angolans who are Muslims. They have no where else to go but to stay in THEIR country.

Saudi Arabia considers itself as "Vatican". So they set up the bar higher than rest of the Islamic countries. Except Saudi Arabia I do not know of any country which prohibits establishing religious temples or churches in them. There are Muslim countries (UAE, Turkey etc) which donated land for building churches. But they do not make news and you do not know about them.

I understand your position but it is not an informed one. It is based on fictional perception. However I respect it as "Your opinion".

Here is a little bit about this topic...


Muslim Community in Madagascar Donate Land for Christian Church

Teresa Neumann Reporting : Mar 8, 2006 : The Living Church

The Living Church Foundation reports that members of the Muslim community in a suburb of Ambilobe, Madagascar, have donated land to the Anglican Diocese of Antsiranana in the Province of the Indian Ocean.
Map of Madagascar "I could not believe my ears," the Bishop of Antsiranana, the Rt. Rev. Roger Chung, said in an official release published by the telecommunications department of the Anglican Communion Office. "But God's ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts, says the Book of Isaiah."
According to the chairman of the new parish, Diogene Mahavavy, the Muslim community donated the land after becoming aware of the difficulties that the Anglicans were having in obtaining a plot of land on which to build a new suburban church.
The people of Ambilobe are from the Antakarana tribe, which is predominantly Muslim, Mr. Mahavavy said, but evangelization in the region has resulted in many families having both Muslim and Christian members; mutual support is common.











Source: http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=2222






My two cents...

Shalom!










-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Nov 29, 2013 6:36 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Angola Bans Islam, Destroys Mosques

 

@ Mr. Chakraborty:

I want to stick to the broader issue – which is - religious discrimination; everything else stems from it.

The world has lost the right to take moral high ground on religious discrimination issue thousands of years back.

I did not say – religious discrimination anywhere is ethical or right; not at all. In fact, my ethical mind tells me that - I cannot give a pass for such discrimination in one country, for whatever reason, and object it in other countries. That's discrimination, in my view. Therefore, I cannot blame or protest religious discrimination in Angola. I have no right to do so. I hope you will understand my position now. And, please do not bring other ancillary issues into this discussion. That's just distraction.

Jiten Roy


On Friday, November 29, 2013 6:27 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
As a matter of fact my position should have been clear from my first post in which I talked about possible disastrous effect of the chain reaction of retaliation by competing countries by banning rival religions. 
Your 'appropriate' judgment seems to be unethical. Angola has taken away the religious rights of some groups within Angola. Would it not be unethical for another country to take away the religious rights of some other groups? Are you not justifying the demolition of temples in Bangladesh as a reaction to demolition of the Babri Mosque in India? 
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 29, 2013, at 10:47 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 


Yes, Mr. Chakraborty, now I can understand your point.  You have generalized your view in the last post. Dr. Bain promotes generalized views like, "Barbaric acts should not be retaliated with barbaric acts," and you support it.  Both of you identify something as barbaric act, but do not support similar reaction to that. This is exactly Gandhism, whether you realize it or not.

You said, "My point is: Angola has banned Islam, so another country will have to retaliate by banning Christianity---that cannot be a wise step."

Now, I can agree with you - this is an extreme reaction, but not totally inappropriate in the realm of appropriate reactions. 

Saudi Arabia has practiced religious discrimination for thousands of years, and the world has looked the other way, which has resulted the spreading of religious discrimination (virus) in other Muslim majority countries too. If you think clearly you will have no difficulty to see the host country for this virus. I am puzzled by the fact that you guys have so much difficulty to see this reality. And, in that line of thinking, I judge Angolan action as extreme, but not inappropriate.

Jiten Roy






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