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Thursday, March 21, 2013

[mukto-mona] Caste, corruption and romanticism by KANCHA ILAIAH



Caste, corruption and romanticism

KANCHA ILAIAH

 

The Dalit-Bahujan theory or Ambedkarism cannot negotiate with funny theories of sociologists like Ashis Nandy. The best way to counter them is to write a better theory

Utsa Patnaik, a noted economist said in a small note that she circulated "Ashis Nandy had earlier made approving remarks on the 1988 Deorala burning to death of a young widow in the name ofsati (terming it a courageous act in a piece in theIndian Express), and more recently has reportedly made a factually baseless, highly offensive comment on Dalits and corruption. Given the crudity of these positions one wonders how 'nuanced' and 'ironic' can an academic get. There is nothing here to surprise us, for Nandy has always projected a consistent intellectual position.

"His writings, starting from The Intimate Enemyclearly represent an Indianised version of Romanticism, the much-analysed trend of thinking which valorises pre-capitalist traditions, local cultures and subjectivities while critically opposing the rationalism and homogenizing values of industrial capitalism." This is a perceptive observation of Mr. Nandy's academic romanticism. Such romaticisation of caste and culture has deeper scholastic roots.

'High against low'

Mr. Nandy is not alone in positioning the cultural character of Indian society in a top down manner and romanticising the cultural ethos of 'high as against low.' This has been the cultural morale of the so-called mainstream sociological scholarship in India. The caste/class background of Indian sociologists, what they see and study in Indian society, is presented as normative and the victims of the social process are expected to affirm those theories.

This sociological methodology was invented by M.N. Srinivas who studied the Indian caste system from his own cultural standpoint and designated the process of perceived change as Sanskritisation. A systemic role was assigned to an ancient Indian language, which was already dead. Yet he turned that into a theoretical category. Its use was only in the Hindu ritual realm at that time and no Brahmin family was using that language in day-to-day life. That linguistic-cultural construction was deployed as positivist and modernist. He romanticised the so-called 'low castes imitating the high castes,' so much so that the whole academic discourse in India sought to be mesmerised; it was also projected as a creative utopia.

The Dalit-Bahujan life was essentially culturally inclusive as against the Brahminic exclusionism. Srinivas picked up some common food practices between Brahminic and Dalit-Bahujan (who ate vegetables alongside meat foods historically and discovered many vegetarian food items) and asserted that the lower castes were getting Sansrkitised. He discovered that Sanskritisation among the lower castes was deterministic and transformative. It was to suggest that no other forms of lower caste mobilisation were required. Though sociologists like A.R. Desai disagreed with this pseudo-transformation theory, they were ruthlessly marginalised.

Polygamy and divorce

Another noted sociologist, Andre Beteille, found Sanskritisation taking place at a systemic level on a continuous basis. He said: "Divorce, separation, polygamy etc., were common among the Dalits. The fact that they consider divorce bad is the impact of Sanskritization." What does he mean by saying polygamy was 'common' among Dalits? Does he mean every second Dalit man had/has more than one wife? What about Brahmin men? Not even one in thousand was/is polygamous? Was polygamy rare among Brahmins and Kshatriyas? Where did he get his statistics about 'Dalit polygamy' being common and Brahmin polygamy being uncommon or rare? One hopes that the census data would include caste and polygamy relationship among all castes and religions.

His assertion that "they [Dalits] consider divorce bad" because of Sanskritisation is believed to be normative. How would he theorise the increased divorce rates among the upper castes — particularly among Brahmins? Is there no opposite linguistic-cultural concept for that? Shall we call it Palisation, as Pali was the mass language when Sanskrit was the court language? Or if we say that the process of upper castes opting for increased divorce or meat eating should be theorised as Dalitisation, what would they say? Would they not ask: what is this concept called Dalitisation?

Yet another sociologist, Dipankar Gupta, studied the Indian caste system very seriously and told the United Nations Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) examining 'Discrimination based on descent' in 2007, that "Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Baniyas, Shudras and Dalits no more exist in India." Is this romanticisation or mesmerisation of Indian sociology?

Corruption not a commodity

Ashis Nandy, a noted social-psychologist, spread the theoretical net of corruption to all the Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and Other Backward Classes. He discovered that the 'most' corrupt in Indian society came from these social groups. Has he not followed in the footsteps of MNS' theory of "lower castes imitate the higher castes?" Does not such a statement romanticise corruption? And does not such location of 'corruption' among the poorest of poor endanger the whole social science discourse? Corruption is not a commodity that becomes accessible for every human being on the street. It operates, as the Sanskrit language operated among the bhoodevatas, among those who have money and power. Power among the upper castes of India is like the thread in a garland. It connects with the other quite coherently. This is not true of Dalit-Bahujan castes. A few here and there in real power (only Mayawati was in that category) structures do not and cannot connect to the most poverty ridden masses.

Several commentators, including Utsa Patnaik, pointed out that Mr. Nandy supported Sati, the theory of Mohan Bhagawat that Bharat is 'rape free' while 'India is rapist,' as it was influenced by western capitalism. It was like saying that 'feudal rape is pure and capitalist rape is impure.' Mr. Nandy is a Gandhian democrat. He imbibed Gandhism through Nehruvian ideology. For Gandhi, castes were necessary to maintain the balance of social system. For Nehru, corruption was the necessary greasing oil for the state engine to run. Mr. Nandy transforms this greasing oil theory into a theory of 'social equaliser.'

'Republican Utopia'

For his mode of Indian sociology, SC/ST/OBCs travelling ticketless in trains is equivalent to upper caste air travel with a stay in a five star hotel, without spending money from their personal account. This theory resembles the sociological theory of Andre Beteille that when Dalits eat vegetarian they get equalised with Brahmins. Mr. Nandy discovered a majestic 'Republican Utopia' in the Indian mode of corruption.

If "Sanskritisation" and "corruption" become part of the "Republican Utopia," that republican utopia would match neither the ancient republican dream of Plato nor the late medieval utopian dream of Thomas More. Caste is a concrete thing at hand as slavery and class were in Europe. There is no positive sense in the notion or practice of corruption. As death cannot equalise human life, corruption cannot equalise castes. There is no way that the Dalit-Bahujan theory or Ambedkarism could negotiate with this funny theory. Neither could democratic or Marxist theory.

Equaliser theory

Since the upper castes are already corrupt, an equaliser theory is invented in the very life of Dalit-Bahujan. As the Dalit-Bahujan have no theoretical resource to counter such theories, some rushed to the police station to stop this kind of theorisation. Mr. Nandy had an intellectual answer for that recourse. "I will sit in jail and write a bigger theory." He cites Gandhi and Nehru writing their theories in jail.

At this stage, the Dalit democratic movement cannot afford to send such theoreticians to jail and give more credence to their theories. Let it not be forgotten that there is no living Ambedkar among us to write better theory without ever going to jail. Dr. Ambedkar overtook Nehru in a recent survey with his unparalleled theory of 'Dalit democracy' as the equaliser. In due course, he will also overtake Gandhiji in greatness. The best way to put this kind of sociology in its place is to burn more midnight oil to write a better theory of Dalit sociological imagination — not of utopia.

(The author is Director, Centre for the Study of Social Exclusion and Inclusive Policy, Maulana Azad National Urdu University, Hyderabad)

 



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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: এই খবরটার সত্যতা কি? ওদের কি ওয়েব আছে?



If Jamat, Huji etc. can carry out bombing campaign across India, BJP can also do whatever they wish.  Mr. Rahman being blind to misdeeds of his coreligionists is not expected to wake up to reality.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:26 PM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 

There is a difference between BJP and Jamati brands of nationalisms.



>>>>>>>>> Let me share a recent "Update" on BJP. Recently they expressed their wish to march towards "Dhaka" (Capital of Bangladesh). As per reports, they were forced to stop at the border.

One more time, ground reality differs from your "PERCEPTION" of BJP of India.

Another report says....



BJP's march to Dhaka stopped in Tripura


BJP nationalism is for India only


>>>>>>>>> As I said, REALITY does not fit into your posts. It is better to learn about any topic BEFORE we want to share opinions on it.  ;-)

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 20, 2013 7:08 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: এই খবরটার সত্যতা কি? ওদের কি ওয়েব আছে?

 
There is a difference between BJP and Jamati brands of nationalisms. BJP nationalism is for India only. Jamati nationalism, on the other hand, is for Muslim-Ummah, which overflows across any state boundary (worldwide), just like communism. As a result, Communist and Islamist have common mindset, meaning both believe in some sort of internationalism. Communism and Wahabism do not believe in a particular nationality.
 
If you remember - Communists from West Bengal was rooting for China during the Indo-China war. Do you think BJP members will ever do that for any reason? Let me also tell you - if there is a war again between Pakistan and Bangladesh, for whatever reason, all Islamists will gladly help Pakistani forces and will not hesitate to kill any Bangladeshi, who oppose them; do you have any doubt about it? 

Jiten Roy


--- On Tue, 3/19/13, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: এই খবরটার সত্যতা কি? ওদের কি ওয়েব আছে?
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 19, 2013, 9:33 AM

 
BJP, on the other hand, is a fervent nationalist party. 


>>>>>>>> Sure they are. They are ALSO preach and believe in "Hindu Nationalism". The percent of Muslim population in India is large and they do mosque breaking and killing Muslim "Nationalism" quite well.

Member Sushanta is from India (Correct me if I am wrong here). So I am sure he knows a bit more about BJP than others.

If you are not aware of their brand of "Nationalism", we can try to bring some of their "Amalnama" to Mukto-mona front.

If you are against communal ism, it would be better to be consistant on your ideals. :-)


Shalom!




-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 18, 2013 4:33 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: এই খবরটার সত্যতা কি? ওদের কি ওয়েব আছে?

 
Sushanta Kar is the usual poster-child of communism. These people are forever confused, just like Islamists. They possess similar mindset. That's why he could not make the distinction between Jamat and BJP.
 
Let me explain to him differences – 1) Jamat is a sister organization of a worldwide network that cares only for the Muslim-Ummah around the world, meaning it care less for the interest of a particular nation; 2) Razakar Bahini is an anti-Bangladeshi militant outfit that fought against the independence of Bangladesh. BJP, on the other hand, is a fervent nationalist party. 

I could cite many more differences, but – what's the point; it's harder to awake someone who is pretending to sleep. I have no patience for teaching a political novice. 

 
Jiten Roy


--- On Sun, 3/17/13, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: এই খবরটার সত্যতা কি? ওদের কি ওয়েব আছে?
To: "Sushanta Kar" <karsushanta40@gmail.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, March 17, 2013, 3:01 PM

 
Sushanta babu
 
Your concerns are with AL, Indian expansionism, and the powerful BJP. You have not expressed any concerns with BNP which was in power for many years and is still a potential party to be in power again. To you Jamat is an insignificant (merely a communal one) force and hence should not be a matter of much concern. (Correct me if I have misread you). You have your own political and ideological views. That make you see things in a particular way.
 
I have been observing the politics in Bangladesh (and erstwhile East Pakistan) for a long time. I am more concerned with BNP than with AL and I have expressed my views many a time. I am not going into the details now as I believe you should already have some knowledge about it.
 
While BJP is a nationalist force, Jamat is not. Jamat is not a weak force. It has a closely knit extensive and intensive network which even is superior to that of communist parties. It has different operational levels. The topmost level is simply the tip of an iceberg which can destroy the whole the Titanic (read whole democratic and secular system of the country). It has armed cadres (you are getting news about what they are doing after the verdicts against the war criminals. They not only destroy temples, they also kill police. It's network also covers press and media, madrassas, clinics, banks, educational institutions, and NGOs. It's political beliefs are based on its founder Mowdoodi's theological-political theories which many Islamic thinkers have described as unIslamic. Mowdoodi was awarded death penalty in Pakistan for instigating anti-Ahmadiya riots. Saudi intervention saved his life. Ahmadiyas have been declared non-Muslims in Pakistan. Nobel Lauraeate Prof. Salam was an Ahmadia i.e., not a Muslim in Pakistan. It acted as the collaborators of the Pakistan occupation army in 1971. They (as the members of the Al Badar bahini) started systematically killing the progressive forces in Bangladesh. They had a long list which they could not finish as the country was liberated. Even BNP leader Barrister Mowdud Ahmed has once said that these Al Badar members were more dangerous than the Pakistani army as the former's plan was to criple the cultural front by killing the enlightened and progressive intellectuals among the Bengalis. Jamat is anti-Bengali nationalism and anti-Bengali culture. This party does not believe in secularism and many of their important advisers favor replacing the current legal system with Sharia law (you might have seen the comments of one such adviser Abdul Hannan Shah in Muktomona forum). Now it is up to you how you would judge BJP vis-a-vis Jamat-e-Islami.
 
Indian hegemony and big brotherly attitude (I am not sure if the term "expansionist" can be used in the context of Bangladesh) and her tendency to have a bigger share in all dealings with Bangladesh. But you are overlooking the Saudi influence (using petrodollars) in Bangladesh. Rise in fanaticism and Islamic militancy in Bangladesh have been largely due to this. 
 
Now let me say some thing about the article by Arup Baishya which you have given to me as an attachment. I am happy that he has congratulated the Shahbag group and expressed optimism that some thing good will come out of it. The framework (globalization and its beneficiaries among the professionals, etc.) he has used for analyzing the situation in Bangladesh focuses on the ideally ultimate solution for the country. In that sense it is too theoretical. Shahbag movement is much more straightforward: The war criminals must be punished. No compromise on it. No conspiracy---whoever the conspirators are---will be acceptable. This trial has already been overdue. Accomplishment of fair trial will relieve the country of the big burden of inaction on the part of the nation with respect to these criminals. The other purpose is to emphasize on the great spirits of independence. Nothing more than that.
 
I want to disagree with Baishya that the organizers are all bloggers and professionals. We are all bloggers. They include bloggers, non-bloggers, professionals, and non-professionals. Most importantly they are activists and they are risking their lives. Baishya has undermined their size, support base, and strength. He has lamented the security and logistics provided to them by the ruling party. What is wrong with that? BNP should do the same thing if it sincerely believes in trying the war criminals. Unfortunately Khaleda Zia has echoed what Sayyidi said to the judge: You have been coerced by the atheists and given me death penalty by breaking the law.
 
Baishya has referred to Camus and has expressed his disapproval of death penalty by hanging. But the thing is that death penalty as the highest form of punishment is legal in Bangladesh. UK does not have it although it engages in committing and supporting many extra-judicial killings in the foreign lands. Many underground parties including communist parties and Jihadi and radical groups are continually doing it. Baishya's disapproval is irrelevant here. 
 
Regards.                
 
 
  

From: Sushanta Kar <karsushanta40@gmail.com>
To: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 1:46 PM
Subject: Fwd: এই খবরটার সত্যতা কি? ওদের কি ওয়েব আছে?

সুচরিতেষু,
সুবিমলদা,
আমি দীর্ঘদিন ধরেই কোন পক্ষ না  নিয়েই শাহাবাগ অধ্যয়ন করছিলাম। কারণ লীগ নিয়ে আমি বড়ই সন্দিহান। তেমনি ভারতীয় সম্প্রসারণ বাদ নিয়ে। আর জামাতকে যদিও সাম্প্রদায়িক বলেই ভাবি, তবু ভারতে যে ভাবে বিযেপির সঙ্গে এক করে দেখছিলেন অনেকে সেটি মেনে নিতে বেগ পেতে হচ্ছে। কারণটি সংক্ষিপ্ত, আমাদের দেশে রাষ্ট্র,শাসক দলকে সঙ্গে নিয়ে নেলী ১৯৮৩ বা গুজরাট ২০০২ বা মুম্বাই ১৯৯২র খুনিদের ফাঁসি দাবি করতে কেউ সাহসী হবে না। এতো দুর্বল নয় বিজেপি। আপনার মন্তব্যগুলোও আমি অধ্যয়ন করছিলাম মুক্তমনাতে নীরবে। আজ মনে হলো, আমার এক বন্ধুর লেখা পড়াই। আপনার অভিমত জানতে পেলে ভালো লাগবে। লেখাটি এক সংগে আর দুটো কাগজ ছেপেছে শিলচরে।

সুশান্ত





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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

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VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do



Well, Dr. Roy is wrong in quite a few points here.
 
ISI is not the main culprit behind brainwashing children, via regular school textbooks, to hate the non-Muslims. The garbage that they learn is not just hatred against a better neighboring country; it is also against the poor and powerless Hindu and other non-Muslim citizens of Pakistan.
 
Benazir Bhutto and her father might have been beacons of democracy by the Pakistani standard, but they were not truly democratic minded. Benazir actually wrote something like a will for her son and husband to inherit the leadership of PPP! Her father was the villain of ditching democracy when he was against transferring power to the people's representative of Pakistan in 1971. There is a video on U-Tube, where he was saying that he liked the students because they had supported him; the concept of the young generation being the future of the nation did not come out of his mouth. He was all for power for himself, just like Jinnah, the biggest villain of the Indian sub-continent, was.
 
As for Jamat/BNP, their stand against India is necessarily due to their hatred against non-Muslims. If they were not genuine hate-mongers, they could not have celebrated an election win by committing atrocities against non-Muslims (2001), nor could they express their anger against the death penalty for one of their leaders by committing mayhems against absolutely innocent, powerless and nonviolent non-Muslims (2013).
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=========================================
 
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
 
Yes, you are right, Dr. Bain, about brainwashing, and it is the business of ISI. The ghost of India haunts most Pakistanis. This is the result of the successful brain washing. More fear means more dependence on the military establishment. Most Pakistanis feel much safer under military rule than under a democratic system. Many intellectual and affluent Pakistanis are frustrated with the slow progress of the democratic system there. Benazir Bhutto was a popular and influential leader in the international arena. She was a threat to the military establishment of Pakistan. You know the result. Recently, affluent Pakistanis are leaving Pakistan; many of them are settling in India.
We still have the remnant of the ghost of India in Bangladesh; BNP/Jamat politics is all about the fear of that ghost.
Jiten Roy
 
--- On Wed, 3/20/13, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013, 10:54 PM

 
I meant to delete what I sent as blank to mukto-mona just a minute back. But let me make a quick comment anyway on Dr. Roy's observation.

I think the real problem for Pakistan now is its people, who have been getting brainwashed with stupidity and hatred for too long.
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
 
The source of most troubles in Pakistan is their military Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI). Pakistan has been under the control of ISI ever since it's birth. It is the king of the land under the Military rule, which becomes a paper tiger in a democratic system. Therefore, ISI will never like democracy in Pakistan, and there is no easy way out of this system also. Just hoping for democracy will not do it. Bangladesh has shown one way out; Baluchistan is going towards that direction.

Jiten Roy


--- On Wed, 3/20/13, Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
To: "Shah Deeldar" <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>, "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>, "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>, "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013, 5:52 PM

 
If you think RAW and CIA are not, and were not, involved in Pakistan then there is not much more to be said.  You did talk about genocide in Baluchistan and that is a valid concern.  As is the killing of Shias and Christians.  That Middle Ages thinking has been imported from Saudi Arabia - another reason why Pakistan would do better without foreign interference.  And let's hope we can deal with the madrasahs in Bangladesh before we have a similar problem.  BTW I hope you will be just as vocal about the genocide of Urdu speaking in Bangladesh and ask for justice for them in the war crimes tribunals too.  You are right the Pakistani military is the elephant in the room - let's hope their next government does better.
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
Some people might still be living in the middle ages and that is the problem! I am sure you know exactly who live in what centuries in current Bangladesh. What I understood from your post is that it were CIA, RAW and other heinous spy agencies have had some thing to gain for not letting Pakistani democracy to flourish. That is pure rubbish. If Srilankans and Indians could stick to their democracies, why could not Pakistanis? Other needs to be blamed because Pakistanis loved their strong military men?

Pakistan broke apart because it did not have the democracy. The history will probably repeat itself again with Balochis taking their own path to independence. 

I am glad that PPP could fulfill their full term but I am not sure whether civilian government had the real power. Pakistani military is still the elephant in the room. That is why Indians and others would rather deal with Pakistani military than Pakistani civilian government

-SD    

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
Oh dear - I see that this is a wider group than pfc friends, but that's okay.  Are you sure you are not still in the 20th. century? :)  Actually I am Bangladeshi and have moved on from the past which is why I don't hold any grudges against Pakistan.  I assure you it is very liberating to free oneself of that anger, though it wasn't easy, and I had to do a lot of self-therapy to get there.   Since it is now 42 years since the military government of Pakistan committed genocide in our homeland, I am more interested in peace in South Asia where we don't go around destabilizing each other.  I am hoping for India-Pakistan-Bangladesh unity. Besides I don't like kicking anyone, even an old enemy when they are down, nor do I hold anything against the people of Pakistan who are just as decent as the people of India and Bangladesh.  Peace!
On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
This is 21st century my friend! Time to grow up and walk!I hope you are not committing the same genocidal crimes in Balochistan as you have done in Bangladesh. Good luck with your democracy if you really got one?-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com>
To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com
Cc: "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>; "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 7:17 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
 
Pakistan has just marked an important milestone by completing for the first time in its history, the full term of a democratically elected civilian government.  Let's hope RAW and CIA give Pakistan and its people a chance to find their own way out of the many problems that have been created by foreign interference.  And may the upcoming elections result in better leadership for Pakistan - Inshallah!
On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://pakpotpourri2.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/breaking-up-is-not-hard-to-do/

Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do

Why the U.S.-Pakistani Alliance Isn't Worth the Trouble
By Husain HaqqaniHH
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[mukto-mona] Fwd: BD Govt. had all info of Jamat-Shibir's plan and attack on Hindus from all sources but did not take any action in advance




-----Original Message-----
From: Amit Chowdhury <amitbaranc@gmail.com>
To: jnrsr53 <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>; dwijen2 <dbhattacharjya@aol.com>; Shyamal Sharma <sarmashyamal8@gmail.com>; Bidyut Das <bidyut8@aol.com>; kumarbh <kumarbh@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Mar 21, 2013 7:21 pm
Subject: BD Govt. had all info of Jamat-Shibir's plan and attack on Hindus from all sources but did not take any action in advance

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do



Yes, you are right, Dr. Bain, about brainwashing, and it is the business of ISI. The ghost of India haunts most Pakistanis. This is the result of the successful brain washing. More fear means more dependence on the military establishment. Most Pakistanis feel much safer under military rule than under a democratic system. Many intellectual and affluent Pakistanis are frustrated with the slow progress of the democratic system there. Benazir Bhutto was a popular and influential leader in the international arena. She was a threat to the military establishment of Pakistan. You know the result. Recently, affluent Pakistanis are leaving Pakistan; many of them are settling in India.

 

We still have the remnant of the ghost of India in Bangladesh; BNP/Jamat politics is all about the fear of that ghost.

 

Jiten Roy


 

--- On Wed, 3/20/13, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013, 10:54 PM

 

I meant to delete what I sent as blank to mukto-mona just a minute back. But let me make a quick comment anyway on Dr. Roy's observation.

I think the real problem for Pakistan now is its people, who have been getting brainwashed with stupidity and hatred for too long.


From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do

 
The source of most troubles in Pakistan is their military Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI). Pakistan has been under the control of ISI ever since it's birth. It is the king of the land under the Military rule, which becomes a paper tiger in a democratic system. Therefore, ISI will never like democracy in Pakistan, and there is no easy way out of this system also. Just hoping for democracy will not do it. Bangladesh has shown one way out; Baluchistan is going towards that direction.

Jiten Roy


--- On Wed, 3/20/13, Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
To: "Shah Deeldar" <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>, "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>, "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>, "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2013, 5:52 PM

 
If you think RAW and CIA are not, and were not, involved in Pakistan then there is not much more to be said.  You did talk about genocide in Baluchistan and that is a valid concern.  As is the killing of Shias and Christians.  That Middle Ages thinking has been imported from Saudi Arabia - another reason why Pakistan would do better without foreign interference.  And let's hope we can deal with the madrasahs in Bangladesh before we have a similar problem.  BTW I hope you will be just as vocal about the genocide of Urdu speaking in Bangladesh and ask for justice for them in the war crimes tribunals too.  You are right the Pakistani military is the elephant in the room - let's hope their next government does better.

On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
Some people might still be living in the middle ages and that is the problem! I am sure you know exactly who live in what centuries in current Bangladesh. What I understood from your post is that it were CIA, RAW and other heinous spy agencies have had some thing to gain for not letting Pakistani democracy to flourish. That is pure rubbish. If Srilankans and Indians could stick to their democracies, why could not Pakistanis? Other needs to be blamed because Pakistanis loved their strong military men?

Pakistan broke apart because it did not have the democracy. The history will probably repeat itself again with Balochis taking their own path to independence. 

I am glad that PPP could fulfill their full term but I am not sure whether civilian government had the real power. Pakistani military is still the elephant in the room. That is why Indians and others would rather deal with Pakistani military than Pakistani civilian government

-SD    


 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

Oh dear - I see that this is a wider group than pfc friends, but that's okay.  Are you sure you are not still in the 20th. century? :)  Actually I am Bangladeshi and have moved on from the past which is why I don't hold any grudges against Pakistan.  I assure you it is very liberating to free oneself of that anger, though it wasn't easy, and I had to do a lot of self-therapy to get there.   Since it is now 42 years since the military government of Pakistan committed genocide in our homeland, I am more interested in peace in South Asia where we don't go around destabilizing each other.  I am hoping for India-Pakistan-Bangladesh unity. Besides I don't like kicking anyone, even an old enemy when they are down, nor do I hold anything against the people of Pakistan who are just as decent as the people of India and Bangladesh.  Peace!

On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
This is 21st century my friend! Time to grow up and walk!
I hope you are not committing the same genocidal crimes in Balochistan as you have done in Bangladesh. Good luck with your democracy if you really got one?
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com>
To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com
Cc: "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>; "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 7:17 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do

 
Pakistan has just marked an important milestone by completing for the first time in its history, the full term of a democratically elected civilian government.  Let's hope RAW and CIA give Pakistan and its people a chance to find their own way out of the many problems that have been created by foreign interference.  And may the upcoming elections result in better leadership for Pakistan - Inshallah!

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://pakpotpourri2.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/breaking-up-is-not-hard-to-do/

Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do

Why the U.S.-Pakistani Alliance Isn't Worth the Trouble
By Husain HaqqaniHH
--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pfc-friends+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

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****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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