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Monday, February 27, 2012

[ALOCHONA] India's water war



India to Link Rivers: Contentious project gets court green light

Environmentalists in Bangladesh fear it would spell disaster



The Indian Supreme Court yesterday ordered the government to implement an ambitious project to link the major rivers of the region in a "time-bound manner".

The court also appointed a high-powered committee to plan and put into action the Rs 5,00,000 crore scheme.

The river-linking project was first devised in 1980 and has been under discussion ever since, reports BBC.

Bangladesh has been opposing the plan since 2002 as the then prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee formed a taskforce to get the project going against the backdrop of the acute drought that year.

Vajpayee then said the scheme would "free India from the curse of floods and droughts".

The project that aims to link 30 major rivers and divert the Ganges and the Brahmaputra rivers was also opposed by other neighbouring countries and environmentalists.

Bangladesh maintains that a diversion of water from these rivers will harm its interests while environmentalists say the project will cause an ecological disaster, BBC writes.

Ainun Nishat, a water expert, yesterday told The Daily Star the Bangladesh-India Joint Communiqué issued during Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina's New Delhi visit in 2010 called for mutual understanding in managing the common rivers.

But the river link project was initiated without any consent of Bangladesh.

The diversion of the Brahmaputra will have a serious impact on Bangladesh that gets about two-thirds of its dry season water from the river, he added.

The Bangladesh Paribesh Andolon, an environment organisation, handed over a memorandum to Hasina last September when Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh visited Dhaka.

It expressed concern that under the river link plan the flows of the Brahmaputra and the Ganges will be redirected towards the southern and western parts of India, depriving Bangladesh of water.

The project requires the construction of large dams in India, Nepal and Bhutan, besides requiring international agreements with these countries.

Environmentalists say large dams would flood forests and cultivated areas, and cause compulsory resettlement of people, according to a BBC report.

The biodiversity of Bangladesh greatly depends on rivers. The country is already bearing the brunt of a diversion of water of the Ganges and Teesta rivers by India.

The taskforce that Vajpayee formed in October 2002 recommended dividing the project into Peninsular and Himalayan components.

The Peninsular component that involved rivers in southern India envisaged developing a "Southern Water Grid" with 16 linkages.

It included diversion of surplus water of Mahanadi and Godavari rivers to Pennar, Krishna, Vaigai and Cauvery rivers.

The taskforce also mooted a diversion of the rivers of Kerala and Karnataka to the east, and an interlinking of small rivers flowing along the west coast, south of Tapi and north of Mumbai and of the southern tributaries of Jamuna.

The Himalayan component envisaged building reservoirs on the Ganges and the Brahmaputra and their main tributaries in India and Nepal to conserve water during the monsoon for irrigation and hydro-power generation.

The taskforce had identified 14 links, including Kosi-Ghagra, Kosi-Mech, Ghagra-Jamuna, Gandak-Ganges, Jamuna-Rajasthan, Rajasthan-Sabarmati, Sarda-Jamuna, Farakka-Sundarbans, Brahmaputra-Ganges, Subernarekha-Mahanadi, and Ganges-Damodar-Subernarekha.

The taskforce said the linking of rivers in India would raise irrigation potential to 160 million hectares for all types of crops by 2050.

The project proposes linkages between the major rivers by the year 2016.

Yesterday, observing that the project had already been delayed, resulting in cost rise, a three-judge bench headed by Chief Justice SH Kapadia said the central Indian government and the states concerned should participate for its "effective" implementation "in a time-bound manner".

The bench appointed a high-powered committee comprising Indian water resources minister, its secretary, secretary of the Ministry of Environment and Forest (MoEF) and four experts appointed by water resources ministry, finance ministry, planning commission and MoEF.

Representatives from state governments, two social activists and senior lawyer Ranjit Kumar, who has been assisting the court in the case, will also be in the committee as members.

http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=224227



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Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism



Virtue is, as the Greeks observed, balance between vices.  Insanity has always ruled the world, and I am afraid, it always will.  Logic is based on the rules,"1. Boss is always right; 2. In case of doubt, refer back to rule 1."

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 8:06 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Even if I wait until science finds answers to all those questions, I asked before, where the incentive for sacrifice in life will come from, if all deeds end here as we die? What's the difference between a good and a bad deed, if there is no Karma? The logic will soon turn into insanity. 

Jiten Roy 


--- On Mon, 2/27/12, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, February 27, 2012, 6:54 PM


 
Let me comment on the posts below by Dr. Jiten Roy and Mr. Q. A. Rahman.
 
First on Dr. Roy's comments:
 
Our knowledge is limited, lack thereof is unlimited. So, I would say, Dr. Roy has some thought provoking questions, for which I do not have definitive answers. However, that does not mean that God, re-birth and virtue/karma in various lives are the answers. Of course, when we can not comprehend, it is easy to give up, and explain it with the irrationality of the concept of supernatural powers. It is much more difficult to explore with patience to find out. If we look at the progress of human civilization, we can see that some of the old supernatural kinds of mysteries are no longer mysteries. Just imagine, for example, when people did not know that air was a matter, they used to consider it as a god and pray to it (or to God's expression in the form of air). For another example, even in today's world, some people pray for rain when there is a drought; of course, the technology-based irrigation works better than the prayers.
 
We need to realize that it may take too many generations of human intelligence to unravel just one mystery; and some mysteries could remain unsolved even on the day when Earth is destroyed (by natural phenomena according to the rationalists).
 
Having said the above, let me make two generalizations. While some exceptionally remarkable discoveries may take place here and there by accidents, most of the unraveling of mysteries and solutions to problems are accomplished via systematic studies. While some remarkably brilliant individuals may come from poor environments, most of the talents do come from the environments of talents.
 
Now, on Mr. Rahman's comments:
 
Talking about the race factor, I have a CD of Shyama Sangeets, where I like the tunes of some of the songs. When I hear one particular song, I think, what kind of a deprave is this devotee? It goes like, "tui kali mekhe, jyoti dheke, parbi ne ma faki dite ……" (by covering your glow with black ink, mother, you can not deceive me). The idea is, "even when you disguise yourself as black, I still recognize you, and am fond of you." Now, Syama (Kali) is supposed to be actually black according to the Hindu belief. However, this devotee is praying to this god of his as if she is actually white, just disguising as black. In other words, he has to imagine the black god to be white while praying to her! Black can not be prayed to, even when she is the revered motherly god!!
 
Now, I am not suggesting that most devotees are like that when it comes to the goddess Kali. But, there is no doubt that for the religious and backward sections of the Hindus, white is clearly more desirable and revered than black.
 
As for Mr. Rahman liking the "wisdom of many Hindu scholars", I would say, that probably is because Hinduism, whether religion or philosophy, is not too prescriptive, and many of the so-called scholars are not up to following exactly what was written in the religious books in ancient times.
 
Well that's all for now,
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=========================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism

Yes, the so called upper caste Hindus has exploited Shree-Krishna-logic for Millennia, and they are still doing it today in some parts of the Indian subcontinent. It could mean totally different things. In one of my previous posts, I asked for an explanation as to why some children are born with silver-spoon in mouth - while others starts suffering right from the moment they are born. You may say it's a statistical probability, but that answer does not satisfy me. Here is another question – why some people are extraordinarily brilliant (or skilled) in something, while others cannot understand (or do) simple things. It can't be the gene, because we can find brilliant people coming from illiterate parents; it can't be the environment, because we can see this difference within the same environment; it can't be the opportunity, because we can find this difference within the same family. Then, what?
Jiten Roy
 
===========================================
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism

(SBain) Talking about conversion to Hinduism, I have wondered, who gets converted to what caste? Who in the world would be interested in getting converted to a Shudra or Chandal? The way I see the attitudes of the powerful Hindus, they would not take the average Muslim or black African for anything better than a Shudra or Chandal. Of course the Hindu leaders have been keen on licking the boots of the Nawabs and the white Europeans. They would not dare converting them to anything less than Brahmin or Kshatitrya. But, why in the world would the average Nawab/British demote himself from kicking the butts of the Hindus to be equal to the Hindus?

>>>>>>>>>> I think beside the economic and power working as "Factors" to this issue, RACE is another factor as well. In most parts of India (Certainly all of Bengal) I have not seen any idol that had "Dark skinned" men or women (Like Durga, Saraswati, etc). They are all very "White" and ironically "Ashur" (Beaten by Durga) is often dark skinned.

I think unconsciously Brahmins had lesser problem in accepting fair skinned Muslims and British raj as their masters. Albeit "Muslim" rule was often an issue but did not become so important until the British wanted to divide us (TO rule our forefathers!!) by sewing hatred between these communities.

My guess is (Pardon me if I am crossing a line here) most Brahmins will have easier time accepting a Muslim like (Saif Ali Khan--white looking) as their masters than accepting Ravon looking lower caste Hindu as their master.

Gandhi (Despite his many limitations) tried very hard to break this racist cycle (Against lower caste Hindus and Muslims) but had to give his life for this mission.

Hinduism has many good teachings in it. Specially I like the wisdom of many Hindu scholars are uplifting. But thousands of years ago the Brahmins came from a different land TO India and put themselves as the "Top dog" of the social and religious ladder.

This is MY OPINIONS only based on observations. So if there are any mistakes, feel free to correct it.




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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
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http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

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               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism



Those who believe in heaven and hell can answer your questions. From scientific point of view, these questions are irrelevant.  
We don't have to go to ancient sages to understand life and death as physiological processes. Every day we are acquiring new knowledge about them. Life and death, however, have special meanings and implications for human beings and hence have philosophical dimensions too. Philosophers, poets, and creative geniuses from the fields of literature and arts have depicted them in various ways.   

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
 

How about if we take bits and pieces from all religions to find answers to our questions. As per contemporary religious belief good deeds take you to the Heaven, and bad deeds take you to the Hell. This part is clear. But, what happens to those who did some good and some bad deeds?
That's where re-incarnation theory comes. If you are not good enough for Heaven or bad enough for Hell, you come back to this world and restart your cycle. You are endowed with all qualities based on your credits from the previous life. This is what, I think, Shree-Krishna-logic means. It provides a complete solution to the mystery of our life and death.
The fact is – those ancient Rishis were the philosophers of those days. When they were meditating, they were mostly seeking answers to all those unknowns about life and death. Should we brush their knowledge away so callously, when we know science cannot go that far in our life time as they have gone? I know – some of their views are proven to be wrong. Does that mean all their views were wrong? The choice is ours; either we reject all those knowledge or use some of them to complement ours from science, until we find the total scientific answers in some unknown time horizon. Jiten Roy
--- On Mon, 2/27/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, February 27, 2012, 9:34 PM

 
If I understood the question, then I will say that we sacrifice (money, leisure, close association with a dear one, etc.) in the hope of a greater return in this world. A religious man, however, hopes for the fruits of the after-life also. There are higher levels of sacrifice (mostly emotional but also done out of dutifulness)(examples, sacrifice own's life for the mother land, for saving the life of a dear one, etc.) Good deeds and bad deeds are relative. Even the Geeta says that the sin itself is relative.
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
 
Even if I wait until science finds answers to all those questions, I asked before, where the incentive for sacrifice in life will come from, if all deeds end here as we die? What's the difference between a good and a bad deed, if there is no Karma? The logic will soon turn into insanity. 
Jiten Roy 
--- On Mon, 2/27/12, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, February 27, 2012, 6:54 PM

 
Let me comment on the posts below by Dr. Jiten Roy and Mr. Q. A. Rahman.
 
First on Dr. Roy's comments:
 
Our knowledge is limited, lack thereof is unlimited. So, I would say, Dr. Roy has some thought provoking questions, for which I do not have definitive answers. However, that does not mean that God, re-birth and virtue/karma in various lives are the answers. Of course, when we can not comprehend, it is easy to give up, and explain it with the irrationality of the concept of supernatural powers. It is much more difficult to explore with patience to find out. If we look at the progress of human civilization, we can see that some of the old supernatural kinds of mysteries are no longer mysteries. Just imagine, for example, when people did not know that air was a matter, they used to consider it as a god and pray to it (or to God's expression in the form of air). For another example, even in today's world, some people pray for rain when there is a drought; of course, the technology-based irrigation works better than the prayers.
 
We need to realize that it may take too many generations of human intelligence to unravel just one mystery; and some mysteries could remain unsolved even on the day when Earth is destroyed (by natural phenomena according to the rationalists).
 
Having said the above, let me make two generalizations. While some exceptionally remarkable discoveries may take place here and there by accidents, most of the unraveling of mysteries and solutions to problems are accomplished via systematic studies. While some remarkably brilliant individuals may come from poor environments, most of the talents do come from the environments of talents.
 
Now, on Mr. Rahman's comments:
 
Talking about the race factor, I have a CD of Shyama Sangeets, where I like the tunes of some of the songs. When I hear one particular song, I think, what kind of a deprave is this devotee? It goes like, "tui kali mekhe, jyoti dheke, parbi ne ma faki dite ……" (by covering your glow with black ink, mother, you can not deceive me). The idea is, "even when you disguise yourself as black, I still recognize you, and am fond of you." Now, Syama (Kali) is supposed to be actually black according to the Hindu belief. However, this devotee is praying to this god of his as if she is actually white, just disguising as black. In other words, he has to imagine the black god to be white while praying to her! Black can not be prayed to, even when she is the revered motherly god!!
 
Now, I am not suggesting that most devotees are like that when it comes to the goddess Kali. But, there is no doubt that for the religious and backward sections of the Hindus, white is clearly more desirable and revered than black.
 
As for Mr. Rahman liking the "wisdom of many Hindu scholars", I would say, that probably is because Hinduism, whether religion or philosophy, is not too prescriptive, and many of the so-called scholars are not up to following exactly what was written in the religious books in ancient times.
 
Well that's all for now,
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=========================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism

Yes, the so called upper caste Hindus has exploited Shree-Krishna-logic for Millennia, and they are still doing it today in some parts of the Indian subcontinent. It could mean totally different things. In one of my previous posts, I asked for an explanation as to why some children are born with silver-spoon in mouth - while others starts suffering right from the moment they are born. You may say it's a statistical probability, but that answer does not satisfy me. Here is another question – why some people are extraordinarily brilliant (or skilled) in something, while others cannot understand (or do) simple things. It can't be the gene, because we can find brilliant people coming from illiterate parents; it can't be the environment, because we can see this difference within the same environment; it can't be the opportunity, because we can find this difference within the same family. Then, what?
Jiten Roy
 
===========================================
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism

(SBain) Talking about conversion to Hinduism, I have wondered, who gets converted to what caste? Who in the world would be interested in getting converted to a Shudra or Chandal? The way I see the attitudes of the powerful Hindus, they would not take the average Muslim or black African for anything better than a Shudra or Chandal. Of course the Hindu leaders have been keen on licking the boots of the Nawabs and the white Europeans. They would not dare converting them to anything less than Brahmin or Kshatitrya. But, why in the world would the average Nawab/British demote himself from kicking the butts of the Hindus to be equal to the Hindus?

>>>>>>>>>> I think beside the economic and power working as "Factors" to this issue, RACE is another factor as well. In most parts of India (Certainly all of Bengal) I have not seen any idol that had "Dark skinned" men or women (Like Durga, Saraswati, etc). They are all very "White" and ironically "Ashur" (Beaten by Durga) is often dark skinned.

I think unconsciously Brahmins had lesser problem in accepting fair skinned Muslims and British raj as their masters. Albeit "Muslim" rule was often an issue but did not become so important until the British wanted to divide us (TO rule our forefathers!!) by sewing hatred between these communities.

My guess is (Pardon me if I am crossing a line here) most Brahmins will have easier time accepting a Muslim like (Saif Ali Khan--white looking) as their masters than accepting Ravon looking lower caste Hindu as their master.

Gandhi (Despite his many limitations) tried very hard to break this racist cycle (Against lower caste Hindus and Muslims) but had to give his life for this mission.

Hinduism has many good teachings in it. Specially I like the wisdom of many Hindu scholars are uplifting. But thousands of years ago the Brahmins came from a different land TO India and put themselves as the "Top dog" of the social and religious ladder.

This is MY OPINIONS only based on observations. So if there are any mistakes, feel free to correct it.



__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [ALOCHONA] Intelligent mind



you're kidding, right?  please tell me its a joke


-----Original Message-----
From: Shahadat Hussaini <shahadathussaini@hotmail.com>
To: khabor yahoogroups <khabor@yahoogroups.com>; Alochona Groups <alochona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 27, 2012 12:03 pm
Subject: [ALOCHONA] Intelligent mind

 
 
Intelligent mind

                                            &
                                   A digital VIP

      






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Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: First-hand report from Afghanistan



These unfortunate souls are being manipulated by vested interest groups. Can you imagine how many lives are lost just because religious books are burned accidentally or what not? If it was intentional, let Allah punish them. How hard is it to convey this message to the illiterate masses? But, no - the vested interest groups have to milk it to no end. It's a total insanity what's going on there.

Jiten Roy

--- On Mon, 2/27/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: First-hand report from Afghanistan
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, February 27, 2012, 9:14 PM

 
Spending one year in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor, the author has understood the core nature of the Afghans! Obviously he did not have happy time in Afghanistan. One can read his extreme frustration about the people in his article. Are the Afghans really so bad? We have seen a kind hearted in Rabindranath's "Kabuliwala". We have seen a passionate and romantic girl in Syed Mujtaba Ali's "Shabnam" (please rectify me if I am wrong). Personally I have had opportunities to come in close touch with some Afghan families. They are just like us.
Common people of Afghanistan are unfortunate. They have always been the victims of experiments. Competition and battles over power have been a long tradition. Then we saw communist rule, Soviet invasion, creation of Taliban to fight communist rule and Soviet invasion, Osama bin Laden's base in Afghanistan and the resulting American invasion of the country, rule by Hamid Karzai's corrupted govt., and Pakistan's intervention. 
Future is really uncertain.     

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 5:33 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Fw: First-hand report from Afghanistan
 
FYI

--- On Mon, 2/27/12, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject:
To: "Jiten Roy" <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, February 27, 2012, 11:31 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/afghan-nato-attacked-seven-u-soldiers-wounded-014622779.html
 
 
I just finished a year in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor. Allow me to give my views:

1. Killing/Fighting is ingrained in this society. A man is not considered a man unless he has killed someone in battle. That is why these people are continously fighting each other. It's cultural. They won't stop because the West says it's Stone Age thinking.

2. Most Afghan peasants -- for lack of a better term -- are uneducated, and illiterate. Most could not read the Koran, or recognize it, if it was put in front of them. 30 years of war, and 10+ years under the Taliban, saw to that. The Afghans are not stupid, don't get me wrong. They are cunning, and crafty, people. But, they are ignorant as to the ways of the modern world. They don't want any part of "modernity." Our ways are not theirs. And, they don't want any part of it. They are happy living in their mud hooches, or in their tent villages. A 2-story McMansion with a white picket fence and 2 Bentleys in the driveway is a totally foreign concept.
 

3. Referencing #2 above, most Afghans out in the countryside get their news, etc, from the local Mullah, or Imam. These guys are the religious establishment, and most have Taliban leanings. Do you think they are going to tell the people the truth? Hardly. All it takes is a Imam to say that we desecrated a Koran, or insulted Mohammed, and off the people go. It is a mob mentality. They are not taught to question, or to ask, "Show us proof." Even if they did, the Imam could show them a burned copy of Time magazine, and claim it was a Koran. The average villager wouldn't know the difference.

4. The Afghan Army. God help us if this is what will protect Afghanistan after we withdraw. Having seen them first-hand, and having lived among them, I would agree that they are not the most trustworthy. They spent more time trying to chase the American female Soldiers on our site, instead of going after the bad guys. When the ANA weren't smuggling Taliban sympathizers on to our camp, they were pacing off targets for rockets or mortars, or supplying the Taliban with cell-phone photos of our defenses. The ANA on our camp concentrated harder on raiding our supply section than fighting the Taliban. We even caught the Afghan Army Colonel in command of the ANA on our site stealing light bulbs out of our warehouse! The U.S. Army was no better, I have to add. They helped themselves to our supplies as well. Our security had video of both sides climbing over our walls and razor wire, and stealing whatever wasn't nailed down. We turned our proof over to the US Govt for action. Nothing was said or done. As for the ANA, they will dissolve as soon as we pull out. And, all of the weapons, etc, we are leaving in-country will end up in the hands of the Taliban.


5. I agree with some of the comments made about this article. When we withdraw, the Taliban will take over. Those Afghans in the puppet government -- Karzai, for one -- will run crying to the U.S. to save them. We'll take them in, and give them cushy houses in D.C. where they will spend their days running the "True Afghan Govt in Exile", or some such nonsense. And, 5-7 years after that, we will find ourselves back in-country because it has reverted to a terrorist haven.
 

The Afghans have had 10+ years to get it right, or at least make a start. They have done nothing. And, they won't. Unity, or a Government that represents all, is not in their view of "nation". Afghans are loyal to Islam first, and Tribe second. They don't care about nationhood. They don't care about democracy. Give an Afghan a pencil, and try to teach him write. He will only use it as a weapon and try to kill you with it.

It's time to pull out, and let them go their own way


__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism




How about if we take bits and pieces from all religions to find answers to our questions. As per contemporary religious belief good deeds take you to the Heaven, and bad deeds take you to the Hell. This part is clear. But, what happens to those who did some good and some bad deeds?

That's where re-incarnation theory comes. If you are not good enough for Heaven or bad enough for Hell, you come back to this world and restart your cycle. You are endowed with all qualities based on your credits from the previous life. This is what, I think, Shree-Krishna-logic means. It provides a complete solution to the mystery of our life and death.

The fact is – those ancient Rishis were the philosophers of those days. When they were meditating, they were mostly seeking answers to all those unknowns about life and death. Should we brush their knowledge away so callously, when we know science cannot go that far in our life time as they have gone? I know – some of their views are proven to be wrong. Does that mean all their views were wrong? The choice is ours; either we reject all those knowledge or use some of them to complement ours from science, until we find the total scientific answers in some unknown time horizon. Jiten Roy
--- On Mon, 2/27/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, February 27, 2012, 9:34 PM

 
If I understood the question, then I will say that we sacrifice (money, leisure, close association with a dear one, etc.) in the hope of a greater return in this world. A religious man, however, hopes for the fruits of the after-life also. There are higher levels of sacrifice (mostly emotional but also done out of dutifulness)(examples, sacrifice own's life for the mother land, for saving the life of a dear one, etc.) Good deeds and bad deeds are relative. Even the Geeta says that the sin itself is relative.

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
 
Even if I wait until science finds answers to all those questions, I asked before, where the incentive for sacrifice in life will come from, if all deeds end here as we die? What's the difference between a good and a bad deed, if there is no Karma? The logic will soon turn into insanity. 
Jiten Roy 

--- On Mon, 2/27/12, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, February 27, 2012, 6:54 PM

 
Let me comment on the posts below by Dr. Jiten Roy and Mr. Q. A. Rahman.
 
First on Dr. Roy's comments:
 
Our knowledge is limited, lack thereof is unlimited. So, I would say, Dr. Roy has some thought provoking questions, for which I do not have definitive answers. However, that does not mean that God, re-birth and virtue/karma in various lives are the answers. Of course, when we can not comprehend, it is easy to give up, and explain it with the irrationality of the concept of supernatural powers. It is much more difficult to explore with patience to find out. If we look at the progress of human civilization, we can see that some of the old supernatural kinds of mysteries are no longer mysteries. Just imagine, for example, when people did not know that air was a matter, they used to consider it as a god and pray to it (or to God's expression in the form of air). For another example, even in today's world, some people pray for rain when there is a drought; of course, the technology-based irrigation works better than the prayers.
 
We need to realize that it may take too many generations of human intelligence to unravel just one mystery; and some mysteries could remain unsolved even on the day when Earth is destroyed (by natural phenomena according to the rationalists).
 
Having said the above, let me make two generalizations. While some exceptionally remarkable discoveries may take place here and there by accidents, most of the unraveling of mysteries and solutions to problems are accomplished via systematic studies. While some remarkably brilliant individuals may come from poor environments, most of the talents do come from the environments of talents.
 
Now, on Mr. Rahman's comments:
 
Talking about the race factor, I have a CD of Shyama Sangeets, where I like the tunes of some of the songs. When I hear one particular song, I think, what kind of a deprave is this devotee? It goes like, "tui kali mekhe, jyoti dheke, parbi ne ma faki dite ……" (by covering your glow with black ink, mother, you can not deceive me). The idea is, "even when you disguise yourself as black, I still recognize you, and am fond of you." Now, Syama (Kali) is supposed to be actually black according to the Hindu belief. However, this devotee is praying to this god of his as if she is actually white, just disguising as black. In other words, he has to imagine the black god to be white while praying to her! Black can not be prayed to, even when she is the revered motherly god!!
 
Now, I am not suggesting that most devotees are like that when it comes to the goddess Kali. But, there is no doubt that for the religious and backward sections of the Hindus, white is clearly more desirable and revered than black.
 
As for Mr. Rahman liking the "wisdom of many Hindu scholars", I would say, that probably is because Hinduism, whether religion or philosophy, is not too prescriptive, and many of the so-called scholars are not up to following exactly what was written in the religious books in ancient times.
 
Well that's all for now,
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=========================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism

Yes, the so called upper caste Hindus has exploited Shree-Krishna-logic for Millennia, and they are still doing it today in some parts of the Indian subcontinent. It could mean totally different things. In one of my previous posts, I asked for an explanation as to why some children are born with silver-spoon in mouth - while others starts suffering right from the moment they are born. You may say it's a statistical probability, but that answer does not satisfy me. Here is another question – why some people are extraordinarily brilliant (or skilled) in something, while others cannot understand (or do) simple things. It can't be the gene, because we can find brilliant people coming from illiterate parents; it can't be the environment, because we can see this difference within the same environment; it can't be the opportunity, because we can find this difference within the same family. Then, what?
Jiten Roy
 
===========================================
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism

(SBain) Talking about conversion to Hinduism, I have wondered, who gets converted to what caste? Who in the world would be interested in getting converted to a Shudra or Chandal? The way I see the attitudes of the powerful Hindus, they would not take the average Muslim or black African for anything better than a Shudra or Chandal. Of course the Hindu leaders have been keen on licking the boots of the Nawabs and the white Europeans. They would not dare converting them to anything less than Brahmin or Kshatitrya. But, why in the world would the average Nawab/British demote himself from kicking the butts of the Hindus to be equal to the Hindus?

>>>>>>>>>> I think beside the economic and power working as "Factors" to this issue, RACE is another factor as well. In most parts of India (Certainly all of Bengal) I have not seen any idol that had "Dark skinned" men or women (Like Durga, Saraswati, etc). They are all very "White" and ironically "Ashur" (Beaten by Durga) is often dark skinned.

I think unconsciously Brahmins had lesser problem in accepting fair skinned Muslims and British raj as their masters. Albeit "Muslim" rule was often an issue but did not become so important until the British wanted to divide us (TO rule our forefathers!!) by sewing hatred between these communities.

My guess is (Pardon me if I am crossing a line here) most Brahmins will have easier time accepting a Muslim like (Saif Ali Khan--white looking) as their masters than accepting Ravon looking lower caste Hindu as their master.

Gandhi (Despite his many limitations) tried very hard to break this racist cycle (Against lower caste Hindus and Muslims) but had to give his life for this mission.

Hinduism has many good teachings in it. Specially I like the wisdom of many Hindu scholars are uplifting. But thousands of years ago the Brahmins came from a different land TO India and put themselves as the "Top dog" of the social and religious ladder.

This is MY OPINIONS only based on observations. So if there are any mistakes, feel free to correct it.



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