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Monday, November 17, 2014

[mukto-mona] মুক্তমনায় প্রকাশের জন্য। [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from Sharmin Reena reena.sharmin21@gmail.com [mukto-mona] included below]

আমি মুক্তমনার একজন নিয়মিত পাঠক।বাঙলাদেশে মুক্তচিন্তার চর্চায় মুক্তমনা ওয়েবসাইটের অবদান প্রশংসনীয়।নিম্নে আমার লেখার একটি ফাইল সংযুক্ত করেছি।আশা করছি,আপনার সুবিবেচনা ক'রে লেখাটি মুক্তমনায় প্রকাশ করবেন।
ধন্যবাদ।


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Attachment(s) from Sharmin Reena reena.sharmin21@gmail.com [mukto-mona] | View attachments on the web

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Posted by: Sharmin Reena <reena.sharmin21@gmail.com>


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Re: [mukto-mona] Use and misuse of science in religions



Secularism can't thrive in the vacuum. When your neighbors are ready to kill you because you do not believe in the supremacy of their religions and Gods, what choice do you have? Indians tried to be secular for last six decades while their neighbors cleansed undesirables from their pure lands. Do you think those acts had gone unnoticed by Indian secularists? I do not think so. Modi is basically an Indian product of six decades. Is he really bad guy in comparison to other neighboring thugs? Probably not! Ironically, I see it is mostly non secular people who are very critical about Modi's past, present and future. Isn't that an odd phenomenon?


On Monday, November 17, 2014 6:38 PM, "Subimal Chakrabarty subimal@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
You are right. India belongs to the Indians and hence it is their call as to what they want to do with their constitution. 

Frankly speaking I have the same prejudices in case of America also. Any way, again it is their choice. 

Finally I want all the countries in the world to be secular both in spirits and by constitution. 

Thanks for asking me the question. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 16, 2014, at 11:59 AM, Shah Deeldar shahdeeldar@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Please give the guy a break. Indians are grownups and they won't allow anybody to change their constitution or progressive education curriculum. If some people want to go back to their roots, who are we to stop them? Its call diversity. Do you have the same prejudices against the American Republicans because they might make the nation as an evangelist one in the future?
 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Saturday, November 15, 2014 10:43 PM, "Subimal Chakrabarty subimal@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
Astrology predicts the future of a man on the basis of the position of the various planets and starts at the moment the man was born. At a particular moment in time innumerable births take place--- births of men as well as others animals and plants. In order to defy the the theory of astrology it has been made a point that remote stars and planets cannot determine human fate. We cannot afford to be so much fatalistic as there are so many other factors that closely shape one's fate. It makes sense. It can at best be a para science. Astrology is closely connected with palmistry according to which, as far as I know, segments the palm into various mounts related to various planets and stars. There are countless stars all of which are many light years away and there many planets millions of miles away from the earth. Of all these the favorite ones to an astrologer are the sun, the Jupiter, the Saturn, the Mars, and the Venus. 

I agree with you. Let the researchers keep researching. And this research must be scientific. But it would be unwise for us and offensive on the part of a government to take this as granted and make part of the curriculum or glorify it at the government level. That is my concern. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 15, 2014, at 3:16 PM, Shah Deeldar shahdeeldar@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Astrology might not be a science today but can you be 100% sure that it won't be one in the future? If we can predict our weather accurately for a week, why not for an year or a decade? Why that would be impossible? With the same token, if we knew all the complex variables of a human life, why a human future would be so unpredictable? Many things that were unthinkable a century ago have become peanut issues now.

OK, the point is, South Asians should start believing in themselves than blindly following the west. If Veda, Tripitaka and Quran could be the real source of great ideas, I say, why not explore them scientifically? If they turn out to be BS, lets discard them with no mercy.
-SD





On Saturday, November 15, 2014 2:08 PM, "Subimal Chakrabarty subimal@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
It is good to read that in ancient time india taught math to the rest of the world. Research is still going on. Findings of the mathematician mentioned below may not be the final words. If one does Google search it should be clear. We may congratulate ourselves as much as we can, but we should also be prepared to accept newer findings. 

Problem is somewhere else. While we have genuine right to be proud of our ancestors' achievement, but it would be a dangerous game to give Vedic color to everything. It started when Vajpayee became prime minister and Dr. Joshi, a physicist, started rewriting history definitely not without facing strong protests from different quarters. Looks like astrology, an unscientific tool to predict one's future, is getting acceptability in Modi government's agenda again. I don't think Modi will do any thing about it. He will rather support it because of his politics or lack of enlightenment or both. 


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 14, 2014, at 5:57 PM, Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Dr. Bain, please read the following comments - complement of Dr. Das:

"American mathematician A. Seindenberg has demonstrated that the Sulbasutras, the ancient Vedic mathematics, have inspired all the mathematic sciences of the antique world from Babylonia to Egypt and Greece. "Arithmetic equations from the Sulbatras were used in the observation of the triangle by the Babylonians and the theory of contraries and of inexactitude in arithmetic methods, discovered by Hindus, inspired Pythagorean mathematics", writes Seindenberg. In astronomy too, Indus were precursors: XVIIth century French astronomer Jean-Claude Bailly had already noticed that "the Hindu astronomic systems were much more ancient than those of the Greeks or even the Egyptians and the movement of stars which was calculated by the Hindus 4500 years ago, does not differ from those used today by even one minute". American Vedic specialist David Frawley has also demonstrated that the methods utilized in the building of Egyptian pyramids were also borrowed from the Hindus. "The funeral altars, for instance, he writes, which are also in the shape of pyramids, were known in the Vedic world under the name of smasana-cit"."
 

From: "Sukhamaya Bain subain1@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Use and misuse of science in religions

 
Let me change my mind here and make a couple of more comments, due to the misunderstanding of Dr. Roy.
 
I have not actually trashed the mythical and fictional stories of any religious book. I not only see their literary values, I do recognize that many of them were ahead of their time and place in terms of thoughts/imaginations/wisdom. My problem is with today's people claiming them to have in-depth or complete knowledge/understanding of science/technology, to be complete/perfect code of life, to be worth emulating, etc.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
================================================


On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 7:33 PM, "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
Dr. Bain, there is a difference between giving due credit to some mythic/fictional literatures and believing in them as facts. Religious people tend to believe those fictional stories as facts, and educated people have the responsibility to help them be aware of their misunderstanding. Just bad mouthing them as stupid people will not do the job.
Also, educated people should know that mythic/fictional stories have literary value and usefulness in our lives. Trashing those literature as rubbish, as you do, will not make you any superior to those religious bigots. This is not the way you can remove prejudice from religious peoples' minds. As an educated people, your responsibility is to give them proper knowledge, not hatred. 
Dr. Bain, how can I or you trash something that we have not much knowledge of? With my limited exposures, I have learned that - those mythic literatures are Indian treasures, containing ocean of knowledge. Trashing them as rubbish will rather make us stupid.   
Jiten Roy

 
From: "Sukhamaya Bain subain1@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Use and misuse of science in religions

 
Let me make my final comments on this thread. The claim that the Hindu religious books have in-depth knowledge of astronomy is worse than exaggeration. It is false. Those books have no in-depth or systematic knowledge. They have wild imaginations.
 
It is wrong for educated people like us to give too much credit to myths and wild imaginations from religious books, even when we agree that imaginations are needed for real innovations. People like us need to work on removing the brainwash from religious people who falsely and exaggeratedly give too much credit to what I call "primitive wisdom" in their respective religious books, and in the process stay in their narrow cocoons of stupidity and hatred, making the world a miserable place to live in.
 
SuBain
 
========================================================================


On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 8:42 AM, "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
"I am not inclined to take pride in some thing called Vedic math."
Look, Pal, Modi's message was for the people, like you, who are ashamed to take pride of their own heritages. When I tried to remind that point, some of you started to attack me without understanding my message. Someone even accused me of 'falsification,' which turned out to be meant for 'exaggeration.'
As I said before, Indus Valley civilization is one of the oldest civilizations in the world (5000 years old). When I tried to remind that heritage, you try to find excuses to demean them. Vedic era is ~3500 years old, it has brought so much enlightenment to people in that region, which people are still making use of. But, instead of being proud of them, you are bringing Chinese, Greek, and English literatures. This was the point Modi was making.
I know, if the same talk was given by President Kalam or Mukharjee, we would not be talking about it. So, it was not the message, but the messenger, that was wrong.
Look, when someone counter comments against mine, I look forward to learn something from it; this is just waste of time talking about something that should be obvious to all of you.
Jiten Roy

 
From: "Subimal Chakrabarty subimal@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Use and misuse of science in religions

 
Ancient Indian scholars or (sages if you like the word) did real research on astronomy. That is what we need to talk about. I am not inclined to take pride in some thing called Vedic math. 
Sent from my iPhone



On Nov 10, 2014, at 6:12 AM, Sukhamaya Bain subain1@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
Well, Dr. Roy, I can accept that the imaginations of the Vedic stories were richer than their time. But when you suggest, for example, that "in-depth knowledge of astronomy ...... are all in the scriptural books", I find it more than exaggeration; it is falsification. BTW: Did Ganesh's body try to reject the elephant's head, as we see in modern transplant cases; or there was no such problem due to his mother's blessings? Now, don't get me wrong; I have been weak enough to think that the blessings of my parents did/could bring good things in my life; but I am not weak enough to think that such blessings by themselves could change established science.

Talking about some people being ahead of their time, I am willing to accept that Mohammad also was one such human. The problem that I see with the Muslims now is that too many of them proclaim his messages to be adequate for today's world.

Sukhamaya Bain

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/9/14, Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Use and misuse of science in religions
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, November 9, 2014, 10:02 PM

Dr. Bain, the problem with your
comments, most of the time,
is that you think out of context. Here, you
are judging Vedic stories against
modern science fiction stories. Vedic stories were at least
a few thousand
years old. How much
scientific sophistication do you expect from the people in
that era?  Did you
give a thought where rest of the world was when Vedic
stories were written?

When you read something from a thousand
year old
books, you need to think with reference to that era. Just
trashing them without careful consideration, you will
do injustice to those books.  

Do you know how Ganesh got his elephant
head? If
you do, you can compare that to the modern day
face-transplant. Many Vedic stories
deal with space-travel and space-warfare. If I remember
correctly, Megnad used to fight from behind the cloud. Have
you thought about how did those
fictional ideas came to them in those days? Now, compare the
standard of the Vedic people
with that of the people in the rest of the world in those
days. Only then, you will
realize how sophisticated they were. You found some falsifications in my
comments.  What are those false statements? If you tell
them, may be I can correct myself.

Jiten Roy

From: "Sukhamaya
Bain subain1@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]"
<mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To:
mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November
9, 2014 7:04 PM
Subject: Re:
[mukto-mona] Use and misuse of science in religions

Here are
my comments on the quoted comments (below) by Dr. Jiten
Roy.

I see too much of conjecture, exaggeration, imagination and
falsification in Dr. Roy's comments. With the same kinds
of practice, religious people of other shades have been
making the claims that all kinds of knowledge can be found
in their religious books. The way I see them, the stories in
the Hindu scriptures are like poor quality science fictions,
based upon imagination. Compared to those, many of the
modern science fictions are based upon a good deal of
methodical thoughts, and upon technologies that actually
have been proven to work. That is why a lot of real science
and technology have their roots in science fictions.

BTW: As for Modi/BJP being a threat to secularism, people
need to realize that Modi/BJP is not like the fools/fanatics
that throw stones at the devil after praying to their God.
Even with their oxymoron of Hindutwa, they are a lot more
rational people than those who believe in the dogmatic
religions.

Sukhamaya Bain

==============================================================

From:

"Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]"

<mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>

To:

"mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com"

<mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>

Sent:

Saturday, 8 November 2014, 22:37

..........................."Indian civilization, in the
Vedic era, was much advanced than any other in the world.
Descriptions of inter-galactic movement through space-ship,
warfare with the most advanced weapons (airplanes, rockets,
missiles, etc.), in-depth knowledge of astronomy, and
astrology are all in the scriptural books, which depicted
the advancements of knowledge in those
days."...............................................



















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Posted by: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

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VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





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