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Friday, December 2, 2011

[ALOCHONA] The country may need 2 or more PMs for better service....



The country may need 2 or more PMs for better service....

http://sonarbangladesh.com/blog/chorabali1981/78613



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Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?



Member Das,

Increasingly looking like out of context "hate speech". Provide your sources and I'll reply Inshallah.

Your carevan stories were answered with more than enough sources but it looks like you are interested in ranting than discussing any issues. If this works as some sort of therapy for you, please continue....

;-)


-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2011 6:07 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?

 
During the life of Muhammad, his creed might not have been treated as a new religion.  Nothing can defend his brigandage of Meccan caravans and Jewish settlements  along with his pretensions that angels were concerned about his lack of sexual virility.

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 6:00 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I know many churches are rich. Even some temples in India are also rich. But I don't think finance was the motivating factor behind organizing and launching the new religion by the prophet of Islam. But obviously money was a necessity without which advancement of the new religion would have been very difficult if not impossible. For example, the urge to achieve economic independence at a bad time obligated the prophet and his followers to raid Meccan caravans. Even one of the most important reasons for North-ward campaigns was economic given the fact that economic intensification was impossible in Arabia. This means that the prophet was not only flexible, dynamic, and pragmatic as I have mentioned earlier, he was also a great visionary. 
My original point was that if the person who brought Islam to the world could be so flexible in adapting his policies to the prevailing circumstances, why can't all muslims go beyond the literary meanings of the teachings in the holy books?       

Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 7:49 PM

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
The prophet demanded allegiance from the emperors of Abissynia, Byzantium and Persia.  Only the first one agreed, but when sixty two and half percent of his income(twenty percent each for Allah, Rasul and his wives; two and half percent as Zakat for the poor)  was demanded as the religious tax, he also refused to be a Muslim.  I hope, the financial reason behind the religious organizations would be clear by reading such history.

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:50 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Thanks. That's what I learned from one of my atheist muslim friends (please re-read my e-mail blow.) My friend also told me that a harsh greeting has been prescribed for the non-muslims (it may need verification.) If my friend was right, then you must agree that the teaching is discriminatory. Therefore, reinterpretation is a must in a plularistic society.
From one of Prof. Kamal Das's posts it appears that currently re-written or revised versions of the Koran are availble in the market. I hope these are the works of the learned Ulema. To me it looks like a well-thought endevor. This will minimize the risk of taking every thing in a religious book too literally. And this will obviously broaden the unity in a multi-religious society. I am aware that this will not be an easy task. It will face challenges from those who deem a religious scripture to be God-sent and hence unchangeable. That's why I have emphasized that this should be done with a general consensus of the scholars. More importantly, religion being a sensive issue and largely being a matter of faith and prone to be abused by vested interest groups, one prerequisite must be to get people ready for the change. I don't think the Bible re-written by Jefferson has been accepted at all.       
You will agree that the prophet himself was a flexible, dynamic, and pragmatic man. The concept of 'Ummah' initailly included some Jweish tribes also. Even after the complete annihation of a Jweish tribe for their suspicious role in a battle (If I remember correctly---the battle of Uhud), the prophet did not change the scope of the concept "ummah" too much. He encouraged his people to travel even to distant China for acquiring knowledge. Despite resistance from his advisors, he wrote diplomatic letters to the rulers of the neighboring states to embrace Islam.        

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2011 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Member Subimal,

Enjoyed your post.

Just wanted share a small correction ( Hope you don't mind).

Religiously only a muslim can say Asalalmalaikum to another muslim.

>>>>>>>>> This is a misconception of many Muslims. Among Muslims who do not know about their own religion. Muslims are allowed to wish "Peace" (Meaning of salaam) to anyone. As noted all messengers of God (PBUT) before Muhammad (PBUH) also used the same greetings. So Salaam and Shalom are exactly same. One in Arabic and another in Hebrew. Most Muslims have strange misconceptions about our own faith and some of my fellow Muslims misinterpret our faith as well. I use "Unusual" greetings to destroy those misconceptions. As long we meet peaceful and fair minded people, we can be friends with them with open arms. When a religious Hindu says "Shanti" to me, it is EXACTLY the SAME greetings of Islam. There are no differences in them. As per Islam, it will be the greeting for people of heaven ( Those who attain paradise) as well. It is sad, we spend so much time in learning about our differences that, we (At least most people!) overlook the great similarities we have among us. You may not know that, the noble Qur'an actually orders Muslims to take this approach (Of seeking common grounds) with non-Muslims but most Muslims do not follow that (Source: The noble Qur'an 3:64) May you have a nice day! Shalom!  
-----Original Message----- From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Nov 26, 2011 5:49 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
With reference to Jewish Shalom and Islamic Salaam let me tell you some thing from my own experience. One ex-presiedent (a muslim) of a local cultural organization used to welcome the muslim-majority audience of a cultural show by using the word Namashkar. An ex-president (a Hindu) did not mind greeting a muslim using the word Asalamalaikum. Religiously only a muslim can say Asalalmalaikum to another muslim. A harsh one has been approved by Islam for a non-muslim (that's what an atheiest muslim friend told me.) To me it should not hurt getting more open minded and secularize many religious words as long as they are not specifically tied to religious symbols or concepts.    
Let me tell you about another ex-president (a muslim) of the of the same organiztion. I have seen him helping free of cost in decorating the pooja-mandap and the stage for cultural show for another organization. On the day of the pooja I have seen him attending the hindu religious (definitely not the religious part of it) festival wearing fashionable dhoti-panjabi and his wife wearing saree and even vermillion on the forehead as a cosmetic item. All these muslims I have just mentioned are sincere believers in Islam. They don't think that their belief has been shaken a bit by acting the ways mentioned above. They know how to go beyond the literal meanings of a religious scripture. 
Many muslim names like Uma, Partha, Anindya Avatar, Debolina Dhoritree, etc. have roots in hindu mythologies. Drawing rooms of many muslims have in them sculptures of Buddha, Saraswati (controversial Farhad Mazhar has it), and Kali.
We fail to see these revolutionary changes in a religious mind and the culture of a religious community. Social progress can be accelerated by capitalizing on these revolutionary changes and can be easily halted by alienating those who believe in progress and openness.
  

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
How could you read 'brain' instead of 'inquisitiveness'?  I had enough Jewish friends to know that Shalom meant peace, when was it interrupted here? Reading more about Islam would not increase my respect for it.  Religion, by nature, is tribal.  Islam being the faith of seventeen percent population of earth, can by no means be called universal except by those who believe in it wholeheartedly.  Those, who believe that Allah was more concerned about a few thousand bedouins than a billion strong Muslims today, do not have any sense of judgement. In course of time, all religions will be 'caged', not just Islam, about whose extinction, the prophet himself is said to have predicted.
On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 12:24 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 

A final advice, stop using the Jewish 'Shalom' at the end.  Your Muslim brothers could call you an apostate.

>>>>>>>>>>> Despite the myth about my Muslim brothers, no one cared that I use Shalom at the end. It means "Peace" and those who understand the meaning should have NO problem with it. I welcome you to learn and know more about Islam and "Muslim brothers". I think one guy made fun of it and I laughed along.


Islam is a universal religion and anyone ( Muslims or non-Muslims) who want to put it in a cage (Or certain distorted narrative) would be doing something that is "UNFAIR"!!

Basically the word "Shalom" and "Salaam" are the same. I do not consider any human being my "Permanent enemies". So IF any Muslim "Brother" objects to it, I'll have a chat with him.

Breaking false perceptions is a hobby of mine. I enjoy and Islam supports me in bringing people closer to "The Truth". ;-)

Your pint size inquisitiveness is buried deep in religious faith.  If you had read religious literature,e.g., Quran and Hadith, even moderately, your faith would have developed holes.
>>>>>>> "Pint size brain"??? :-)


Guess you cannot argue with the points we discuss, so the name calling. So far pint size brain is working fine to answers concerns you posed. So I'll gave the rest of the brain a little rest. When I meet someone with proper knowledge and courtesy, I'll summon the rest of the brain Inshallah!! :-)
you do not have the aptitude of even a freshman.
>>>>>>>> OK!!


I have read religious literature and kept questioning it UNTIL I found answers for them. So far I am happy, secured and satisfied with answers I have. If a days comes when I have "Holes" in my faith, I'll let you know.

However do understand this process can go both ways. I came to know about people who had "Huge HOLES" in their faith and became an atheist. However after examining their "Faith-Status" (Lack of faith)  they returned to their Maker.

You have been very entertaining. Thank you!!

Shalom!




-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2011 5:42 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Mr. Q. Rahman Your pint size inquisitiveness is buried deep in religious faith.  If you had read religious literature,e.g., Quran and Hadith, even moderately, your faith would have developed holes.    Say about the verse on Abu Lahab, could such hatred be divine?  If it were so, how the person and the prophet could be related by marital alliance? The problem with you is that graduate course of comparative religion are not meat for a freshman, and you do not have the aptitude of even a freshman.  Please read the holy Quran, along with Bukhari, Tirmizi, Muslim and other hadith.  Also read Tabari, and occasionally read the ex-Muslim critiques.  Zaki Ameeni, Abul Kashem etc. have encyclopedic knowledge on Islam.  The attachment I gave earlier entitled "Prophet of Doom" may also be helpful.  Develop enough intelligence to differentiate between a good and a bad post. A final advice, stop using the Jewish 'Shalom' at the end.  Your Muslim brothers could call you an apostate.
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 11:29 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
The first biography of the prophet was written over a hundred years after his death by Ibn Ishaque.  I hope you know his name. There is, however, no reason to believe the authenticity of the biography or that of the person.


>>>>>>>>> Help me understand what you are saying. Do you agree with "One scholar" that, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not exist? :-)
I have spent more time than many studying religious literature, and am confident that I have more information than these recent net browsers.  The believers in the holiness of their religion may read the attachment.  
>>>>>>>>>> I am glad to hear that you know a lot about religion. I hope your future posts will reflect your deep knowledge of this subject. I need your help to understand something. Your attachment was the "Qur'an" and we were discussing prophet Muhammad (PBUH). So prophet's life should be part of the hadith texts.
Do let me know HOW do I learn about prophet's life from text of the Qur'an?
Appreciate your kind attention. Shalom!!  
-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:12 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society? [1 Attachment]
 
[Attachment(s) from Kamal Das included below]
The first biography of the prophet was written over a hundred years after his death by Ibn Ishaque.  I hope you know his name. There is, however, no reason to believe the authenticity of the biography or that of the person. I for one don't need fifteen minutes of fame, neither do the persons I refer to as scholars.  I have spent more time than many studying religious literature, and am confident that I have more information than these recent net browsers.  The believers in the holiness of their religion may read the attachment.  
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 3:59 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Member M. Rahman, Member Das was talking about my comments not yours. However I did not call him dumb but I called the question "Dumb". If Jesus, Moses or Muhammad (PBUT) ever existed are asked by people who want to stir up the pot a little. Going after 15 minutes of fame. People who quote these "Media attention hungry" people often do not know enough of these topics but want to "Shake up" discussions or situations. As I said, I welcome honest questions and critics on any topic (Including religion). However if someone ask if Muhammad bin Abdullah (PBUH) ever existed, it is only FAIR to call that QUESTION dumb. I have not called any member by any names. I think this part was misunderstood. Neither I am interested to relegate our discussions/debate to that level.  Throwing down absurd comments about the holy prophet's janaja or circumcision ( Who the heck going to verify that???) is a cheap way to get someone agitated. BUT in response all I asked to learn more about "Sources" of such information. It is interesting to note that, the whole Muslim world never worried about such issues but some of our atheist friends are!! Which says a lot about the level of desperation. I still welcome all comments or questions about topics I discuss. ( Recently posted one about Jesus son of Mary and Christianity). I am not here to preach to people but ONLY to replace wrong/false information with correct information. ==================================================== Being dumb yourself, you see others as dumb. Member Das, Hope you understand the I did NOT call you dumb. Rather my comment was directed at the quality of the comment. I do stand by that. I do not consider myself as scholar but even with my limited knowledge I can EASILY prove to anyone that, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did exist. The German scholar is also welcome. Despite our differences of opinions, I enjoy your passion in our discussion. Shalom!!;-)


-----Original Message----- From: MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com> To: Mukto-mona Mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 5:49 am Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Mr Kamal Das,

I did not call you dumb. But if you are going to read and quote sources who are critics of Islam as you seem to be, then what can be done? You will continue to bring out absurd claims like the "Prophet was not circumcised" in this Forum with the sole intention of maligning this great man !! Detractors and faultfinders of Islam and its Messenger with continue to come up with atrocious claims in the garb of intellect.

Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: kamalctgu@gmail.com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 07:45:47 &# 43;0600 Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?  
Mr. Rahman Being dumb yourself, you see others as dumb.  I did not present the question you deem dumb, it is the theory of Professor Sven Kalisch.  He teaches Islamic history and culture at a German University.  You can debate with him if you like.  Apparently, you don't know that after the prophet was missing for days the news spread of his death.  Even Hajrat Umar did not believe it and came with an unscathed sword to the abode of Ayesha where he met Abu Bakr who cooled him down.  Then Abu Bakr and Umar belonged to one group who coerced others into submission to the caliphate of Abu Bakr.  The last sermon had nothing to do with his death. By the way do you know that the prophet was not even circumcised.  Thus he broke the covenant of Abraham with God.
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:30 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Member Das,

No mainstream Muslim scholar agrees with YOUR narratives on Islam or our holy prophet (PBUH). Earlier you presented a dumb question by asking IF the last messenger of God (PBUH) ever existed? I have read many DIFFERENT commentaries and spoken to many scholars and NEVER heard such absurd claims.

Either way, the prophet (PBUH) did die a natural death and last time I checked English speaking world does not label that as "Dubious"!! NO way!!

Before the death of the noble prophet (PBUH) he gave his famous sermon during the last hajj, which was so complete and powerful that, it indicated the end of his work on earth. He started by saying...

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY....................................

[ Source: Last hajj sermon]


http://soundvision.com/info/hajj/lastsermon.asp

I cannot stop writing on religious issues as long people like yourself come up with ridiculous and false information about Islam. Someone needs to supply correct information about it. That is all I am doing. Earlier, I have supplied books about the noble prophet by world famous scholars from all corners of the globe and NONE of them talks about the "FICTIONAL" topic YOU brought up here ( About janaja). If this was one time mistake, I would have accept it as such. However you keep coming up with WRONG information about Islam!! Logically it cannot be an accident. It is deliberate and it says a lot about you!! Mainstream narrative of Islam and the last prophet (PBUH) is well known. The last prophet (PBUH) was probably the most documented human being on the face of the earth. His speeches, practices, ideals, values were preserved by his followers as per his direction. http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sunnah/ I am unable to see what was so dubious about his death? People were shocked, sad and confused. When a beloved leader dies, it is the natural response from people. I have given names of books and scholars in an earlier post. If Islam and prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is always in your mind, I invite you to read about him. It would be helpful if you know about the topic you want to critic. ;-) Shalom!!
-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:27 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
If you need the sources on the death of the prophet, you should stop writing on religious issues.  Ask any maulana and find out or read the Cambridge History of Islam, or 'Islam and the West' by Norman Daniel.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:44 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Even the prophet died under dubious conditions and did not get janaja.


>>>>> SOURCES PLEASE???

-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:31 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
If Mr. Mustafizur Rahman does not see that the dominant contemporary religions are based on the geocentric model of the universe, and sees the ancient and medieval periods were not bad periods, no debate is possible.  Nobody can single a period that was good.  As he is a believer in Islam, may I point out that out of the four 'rightly guided' Caliphs, the first one was poisoned to death while the rest were killed. While Omar was bleeding to death, he requested the majlis members not to make his son the Caliph under any condition.  Usman was killed by a group of assassins in the mosque while reading the 'holy' Koran, and Ali was speared to death.  The killers of Usman asked Ali to take over the Caliphate, his dead body was left without a janaja for days.  Even the prophet died under dubious conditions and did not get janaja.  The Shias insist that he was killed by two of his wives, daughters of th e first two Caliphs.  I am really impressed by the depth of ignorance of these mullahs who are using this forum to spread the 'values' of Islam.
2011/11/14 MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
 
Equal opportunity critic to all religions? Why? Why criticize all religions? Medieval period was not a bad period. In English literature this word is at times used in a negative sense. Human progress went through - as the West has categorized it - stages like iron period, bronze period, medieval period etc. Can you single out one period that was bad? If you disbelieve in the very existence of God, that is a different matter. But what will you do with the billions of people who do believe in the existence of a Creator and seek His assistance?

Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: qrahman@netscape.net Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:36:52 -0500
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?  
You have been sharing orientalist myths about Islam. Modern day scholars do not buy these any more. Such orientalists also spread lies against Hindus as well. Which prompted Swami Vivekananda to visit USA over hundred years ago. He went there to answer to those myths and explain his faith to the west.

Over and over I have asked you to share SOURCES of your info but only got unclear answers. Please clarify your positions or take this opportunity to learn something new.

Peace.


-----Original Message----- From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Nov 13, 2011 8:39 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
I do not spread venom against Islam.  I am an 'equal opportunity' critic to all religions, and every medieval tendency to invoke God as an answer to all problems.   I refer to historical facts when some 'religious' men use this forum to spread Islam.
2011/11/12 MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
 
Kamal Das, Jiten Roy etc,

Will you STOP taking advantage of this Forum and refrain from spreading your venom against Islam?

Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: kamalctgu@gmail.com Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:07:31 +0600
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?  
The core message was not convincing enough even to Abu Talib, the mentor and the protector of the prophet.  The message is to obtain 72 houries and 28 gillmans in the afterlife with an everlasting erection.  Even Ibn Sina wondered, how the prophet, being the intelligent man that he was, spread such rubbish.  Then he came up with his own intelligent solution!  Consider the intelligence of the average people of medieval times, and you have the answer. About the animal sacrifice, it is the practice in many cultures.  The poor animal dies to serve the religion.  In the primitive times, the first  child was to be sacrificed as an expiation to the cardinal sin from which every child is born.  Abraham himself was a butcher in the temple of Melech.  As he was not sure of his fatherhood of his children, given his age and inability to sire any during his life, he exiled Ismael and Hagar to Mecca, and took Isaac to sacrifice as burnt offering to Moloch.  But he changed his mind later and told the Canaanites that God intervened in the last moment.  Abraham was used to telling lies.  Earlier he passed Sarah as his sister to gain material advantages.  Animal sacrifice has been a common practice across the world. There was no cheaper way to feed people in feasts.  Cow sacrifice by Indian Muslims are intended only to anoy the local Hindus.  Such practice is not the Arabian norm.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 4:48 PM, sentu tikadar <sentu92003@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
You are right these were acts of half educated idiots who do not understand the core message of Islam.
 
What is the core message ?

 What is the core message of Islam?
 
Tolerance to other Faiths? 
 
Deny others' Faiths and indirectly condemn others' Faiths five times a day? And  brain washing five times per day (like advertisement) later the uncivilised indisciplined Beduin forget  Mohammad ?  So much endeavour to be remembered by ppeople just like a politician sex maniac.
 
What is the teaching? Killing people who would not accept his Faith and used the women of the defeated people. Told something good in Mecca and the same thing told in a reversed way in Medina.  He had written( actually by other) a Book copied from other Book (Bible) because he knew he could not write a completely new  Book out of nothing.So he had taken the easiest and ready- made way. Just Copy and relate him with taht Book's men. So intelligent he was. 
 
Just see the Qurbani in Idd? How people can cut throat the cow which he garlanded with flowers? Giving flowers garland means showing respect to it? After showing respect and / or love it is cut. Desert culture has ruined us. It had divided us. It had killed us. It had made us animals from human. That's why Saudi never allows other to follow their religions in open? In Kashmir, In Pakistan, in Bangladesh , even in India (Deganga of West Bengal) temples' deities demolition is a noble job.
 
They don't feel any pity to that cow? In Pakistan some children stay night with the cow or goat putting flower garlands around its neck. In the morning that animal is cut throat? Height of cruelty !!!  This is the culture mid east had given to us. We borrowed the hard religion from desert while we were not the desert people. 
Is this the teaching of real Allah? Giving pain to a living being Allah feels happy? Don't believe that Allah who is biased. Allah is not a democratic fellow? So the believers of that Allah can not be democratic. That's why most of the Allah believers democratic country are failed country. Who will accept Allah he must be ruled with iron hand otherwise he will loose faiths. So many trics Mahammad had understood and apllied. A real dictator of 1400 years ago. 











     
 
 
--- On Thu, 11/10/11, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 5:47 AM
 
Killing of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are right these were acts of half educated idiots who do not understand the core message of Islam. However atheist people have done more murdering of innocents than any religious people. Stalin, Mao (Of china) etc done their part in killing anyone who had a different point of view.
-----Original Message----- From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 10, 2011 6:37 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Killing of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?
From: S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 2:16 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
Respected all,
Atheists and secularists (who believe in naturalism and rationalism only and who deny role of religion in public life) are more menace to humanity, morality, civilization as history shows. Most of the wars including first and second great wars were waged by them.
Most of the people of religions are good people. Many of them are misguided by secular political leaders or some ignorant and aggressive religious bigots.
Religious people of all religions should fight these exploiters and stand for humanity, morality and social welfare.
 
Shah Abdul Hannan
 
From: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jiten Roy Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:42 AM To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
 
 
@Nihar Singh:   The true religious people - who are they? Whether they bother anybody or not - is not the issue. The issue is how much is their contribution towards the advancement of the modern society? Are people, who take part in the communal riots or blowup innocent people in the name of religion, any less religious? You may think so - but they don't.   @Kamal Das: The New Testaments does not contain many of the violent verses of the Old Testament means these are not absolute truth. This is the point I am trying to make.   Thanks.     From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?   Truely religious people dont disturb anyone. On the other hand atheists try to make everyone atheists. That is true menace. Look at darwin he made everyone think that they eveolved from apes. Many jokers believe this to be true. --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> Subject: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society? To: "Mukto-mona" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 7:12 PM Are some religious people menaces in the society?   I have been asking this question lately to myself. I tried to find the roles and contributions (I mean, real contributions) of religious people in the society that brought us here from the beginning of time. What I envisioned is that - religion played a very insignificant role towards our social, moral, and scientific developments in this world. Most of these developments are made by religiously indifferent people. The religious people mostly deal with and talk about things that are out of this world. As a result, many of these religious people are misfits and menaces in the society.   Many argue that religion builds our moral character, and we learn good and bad from religion, etc. etc. I, on the other hand, think – good and bad we learn from our ancestors, and from our own experiences; religion has nothing to do with it. You might ask where our ancestors learned them from, in the first place. They learned good and bad from their ancestors' experiences, so on, and so forth. Most Chinese do not have any religion. When I asked a Chinese man - how most people there learn about good and bad without religion, he told me - they learn them from their elders' wisdoms. That's right; our ancestors transferred their knowledge and wisdom to us. Therefore, I truly believe – this world would have been a much better place without religion. Religions have divided us into many sectarian hateful clans, which are constantly fighting with one another.   Many of us believe that religious doctrines and dogmas are heavenly absolute entities. They forget that - many of those doctrines, dogmas, and interpretations have already been modified from the original preaching during emancipation. For example, Old Testament has been replaced by the New Testament, many Quranic interpretations have been changed, and many Vedic/Puranic practices and interpretations have been changed, etc., etc. That means - religious teachings and practices are subject to change with the time, which means they are not so heavenly endowments as we believe them to be. This is a critical point to remember. Those who think otherwise are the menaces in the society.   Jiten Roy



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[ALOCHONA] Burma's New Hope: A Repressive Regime Loosens Its Grip (for Now)



Burma's New Hope: A Repressive Regime Loosens Its Grip (for Now)

It's instinctive. I still avert my eyes. But the Lady stares at me all over town, in a laminated postcard pressed to my palm by a street child, on a poster at a Buddhist monastery where monks were once locked up for their political activism, at the entrance of a tea shop darkened by one of Burma's chronic power cuts. Just last year, displaying a portrait of Aung San Suu Kyi, the once jailed democracy icon known affectionately by her supporters as the Lady, could invite arrest by agents of the ruling military junta. Back then, Burmese would furtively show me her image, then look around to see if anyone was watching. Too often, someone was. But now her picture is openly cherished, a 66-year-old Nobel Peace Prize laureate as fresh as the blossoms she wears in her hair. "It's like a dream to see her pictures everywhere," says Su Su Nway, a political prisoner who was released in October after four years in jail, mostly in solitary confinement. "I still cannot believe it. I wonder if I will wake up and she will be gone."

For now, she is around — and so was another lady. Hillary Clinton's visit to Burma, which continues through Dec. 2, is the first by a U.S. Secretary of State in more than half a century. For decades, relations between the two nations have moldered, as Burma hid behind a haze of tropical terror and the U.S. slapped economic sanctions on the country's oppressive rulers. Burma is the second poorest country in Asia, after Afghanistan, and the world's second most corrupt, after Somalia. Most Burmese live in the countryside, surviving with barely one foot out of the Iron Age. Virtually everyone not part of the elite suffers the relentless fear of an authoritarian state that can jail practically anyone for any reason. For instance, in 2008, after a cyclone killed some 140,000 people, some Burmese who distributed food were imprisoned simply for inadvertently exposing the government's failure to help citizens. Clinton was, thus, in one of the world's most backward, repressed countries — an Orwellian realm where George Orwell himself once served as a colonial policeman. (See Aung San Suu Kyi in the 2011 TIME 100.)

Yet the country that calls itself Myanmar is also a changed place. It's not just Suu Kyi's omnipresence that signals a remarkable transformation. In March, a nominally civilian government replaced the ruling junta. Despite vote rigging for the military-linked party in last year's elections and a leadership stacked with retired generals, the new government is starting to do something the previous regime failed to do: consider the needs of some 50 million Burmese. Economic reforms — from privatization to the creation of labor unions — are beginning to mend a tattered economy in which one-quarter of the country's budget is spent on the army. Some of the hundreds of political prisoners crowding Burma's notorious jails have been released. Once muzzled newspapers are loosening up, and the country's censorship czar has said that his bureau should be abolished. Even the country's flag and anthem were abruptly changed late last year (brighter colors, catchier tune), as if the regime wanted a visual and aural break from its disgraceful past. "It's a brave new Burma," a friend in Rangoon, the commercial capital, tells me. I laugh, but she's not joking.

Suu Kyi, having just celebrated her first anniversary of freedom from house arrest, is also looking forward. "I am cautiously optimistic," she tells me at the headquarters of her opposition National League for Democracy (NLD). "That's all I can say, that's all anyone can say." The NLD is doing more than talking. The same day in mid-November that U.S. President Barack Obama announced Clinton's visit to Burma, the NLD made a historic decision to re-enter politics — a space that didn't even exist until last year. Back in 1990, the NLD won elections that the military junta ignored. The woman who might have been Burma's Prime Minister spent most of the intervening two decades under house arrest. When the regime announced it would hold new elections in 2010, the NLD chose to boycott a surely sham contest. (SEe TIME's photoessay, "Freedom for Burma's Aung San Suu Kyi.")

But the surprisingly reformist leadership of President Thein Sein, a retired general and former junta member, has now persuaded the opposition force to reregister as a political party and contest the coming by-elections. Suu Kyi is running for a seat in parliament, something she could only do after the government changed electoral laws this year to allow former prisoners to run for office. "I am awed by the responsibility," she says. "We have a lot of work to do, and we are, as you might imagine, a bit rusty when it comes to all this."

In years past, Burma's military intelligence could arrest someone for possessing samizdat NLD pamphlets in their homes. Yet for a nation sheltered so long from open political debate, the hunger for civics knowledge in Burma is astonishing. Every time I visit, I have improbable discussions with young and old alike on things like federalism, constitutional amendments or Rousseau. The big political question now, of course, is whether these budding reforms will bring anything truly resembling democracy and a free market to Burma. Other countries in Asia, like Indonesia, have made the transition from military rule to democratic governance. Could Burma, one of the last remaining "outposts of tyranny," to use a U.S. designation, be next?

See what's next for Burma after Suu Kyi was freed.

I hear validation from the unlikeliest of sources. Myo Yan Naung Thein spent nine years in jail for his political activity, surviving torture so intense that he was partly paralyzed before his most recent release in 2009. "It's rapid, unbelievable change we are seeing in Burma," he says. "Before, we talked in whispers, but now we speak in loud voices." The 37-year-old former student leader is also running as an NLD candidate in the by-elections, although their date has not yet been announced. Dressed in the customary Burmese sarong, or longyi, paired with a blazer, he talks about democracy, Thomas Jefferson and the electoral-college maps from U.S. presidential elections he secretly studied. But as he pauses for a moment to catch his breath, he asks just what I am about to pose: "Of course, we are all wondering, Will this last? Is this just a trick by the military? Or is this road to democracy irreversible?"

When Burma's generals announced they would hold elections in 2010 as part of a grand plan to turn the country into a "discipline-flourishing democracy," the world scoffed. Since seizing power in 1962, the country's military had ravaged one of Asia's brightest economies and turned its weapons on ethnic minorities, pro-democracy protesters and ordinary citizens alike. In the months leading up to the polls, loads of state-owned enterprises were auctioned off to regime cronies, whose ostentation — Ferraris, mansions, jewel-encrusted weddings — has shocked an impoverished populace. The election results were hardly promising. Many of the opposition candidates who didn't adhere to the NLD boycott complained of rampant voter fraud. When the new legislature convened in March, the military's proxy party dominated. One-quarter of seats were also reserved for men in uniform. (See photos of decades of dissent in Burma.)

But a subdued Burmese spring blossomed into a surprising summer. Although previous military rulers had for years ignored the nation's beloved opposition leader, President Thein Sein met in August for a cordial chat with Suu Kyi. While much of the foreign investment flowing into Burma from Asian nations has landed in the pockets of military families or their cronies, an undeniable frisson of commerce exists in Rangoon. There are other quivers of activity. This fall, two small protests took place in Burma, one in Rangoon and the other in the city of Mandalay. Unlike in 2007, when the military massacred monks and jailed thousands of unarmed demonstrators, no one was arrested — or shot. In November, the parliament passed a bill allowing some Burmese the right to protest, a privilege they previously did not enjoy. Such reforms - modest in a global context but revolutionary for Burma — were the kind of "flickers of progress" that Obama said prompted Clinton's visit.

Whether these reforms are irreversible depends on what has motivated the changes. The 2007 monk-led protests may have been crushed, just as another democracy movement was in 1988. "But the government cannot rule by fear forever," says Myo Yan Naung Thein. "The 2007 protest proved that, with poverty, with repression, there always will be someone who will confront them." The aftershocks of the revolutions shaking the Arab world have reached Burma's leaders, even those bunkered away in the country's remote new capital, Naypyidaw. "The main driving force for change is political will," says Nay Zin Latt, the President's political adviser, who credits Thein Sein's personal leadership for Burma's reforms. "We do not want an Arab Spring here." (See a profile of Aung San Suu Kyi: Burma's first lady of freedom.)

Geopolitics — and a yearning for international legitimacy — are also at play. Burma is a backwater, but it is wedged between two of Asia's great powers: China and India. With Western sanctions in place, the Chinese (and Burma's other neighbors) have stepped into the breach, snapping up the country's rich natural resources, from timber and hydropower to gems and natural gas. But the Burmese have long eyed their northern neighbor with unease; many of the regime's generals earned their stripes fighting ethnic rebel armies once backed by Chinese communists. In September, Thein Sein announced that he was suspending a $3.6 billion Chinese-backed dam in northern Burma that would have sent most of the electricity over the border to China.

If Burma is to balance China's influence, it needs a counterweight. The U.S. will not fully engage with Burma unless its human rights are better protected. But as Obama reiterated during a recent summit in Asia, Washington is keen to raise its profile in the region and — though it was officially left unsaid — contain Beijing. Presidential political adviser Nay Zin Latt promises another batch of political prisoners will soon be released, presumably to placate the U.S. "Before, whether we liked it or not, we had to take what China had to offer," he says. "When sanctions are lifted, it will be better for everyone in Myanmar." Even the NLD, which has long supported a sanctions scheme that most Burmese who I know oppose, appears open to a shift. "The U.S. is the only superpower that can promote freedom and liberty globally," says Tin Oo, the NLD's vice chairman. "The U.S. needs to encourage Burma's reforms, and as they get brighter, we can consider an end to sanctions."

See photos of the hope of Burma.

For most Burmese, though, the sanctions debate is a distant exercise. In the country's borderlands, ethnic minorities backed by ragged militias document the Burmese military's institutionalized rape, torture and looting that have alienated people already suspicious of a leadership dominated by the country's majority Bamar ethnicity. Fighting has flared most fiercely in northern Kachin State, on the border with China. I try calling a Kachin rebel fighter I know, but his family tells me he is somewhere on the jungle front line. The government says it is pushing for a cease-fire. But getting all of Burma's 135 or so ethnic groups, who make up some 40% of the nation's population, to submit to a central authority after decades of abuse may be far more difficult than a dtente between the Lady and the generals.

Even in Rangoon, simple survival fills many people's days. In the dusty outskirts of the city, at the nation's only private AIDS clinic, I meet Khin Than Nwe, a 30-year-old dying of a disease that is quietly stalking an ignorant populace. Burmese spending on health and education is among the lowest in the world, and the government has tried to shut this clinic down before, lest it expose Burma's failings to the world. Khin Than Nwe bore three children, but each died within a few months. She thought it was malnutrition, a constant in a country where one-third of people live below the poverty line. It was only after she was diagnosed last year with AIDS, a disease she had never heard of despite living in a village just 55 km from Rangoon, that she figured out what had really killed her babies. As a clinic assistant brushes flies off her, I ask Khin Than Nwe if she knows the two people pictured on the caregiver's keychain. "That's our Lady," she answers, bringing her hands together in benediction. But she doesn't recognize the man standing next to Suu Kyi. It is President Thein Sein, who was photographed with her during their historic meeting this summer. (See photos of young adults in Burma.)

Burma's current constitution doesn't allow Suu Kyi to serve as President because of a bizarre rule that bars anyone ever married to a foreigner from leading the land. (Suu Kyi, who spent much of her early life living abroad after the assassination of her independence-hero father Aung San, was married to a British scholar who died while she was under house arrest.) Not everyone supports the NLD's re-entry into politics. Badanda Pamoutka, the abbot of a monastery that participated in the 2007 protests, is mystified by the opposition's course. Some monks who led the peaceful demonstrations four years ago are still in jail. "I don't understand why the NLD wants to cooperate with this regime," the abbot says. Others are convinced the current glints of openness are a ruse by strategic generals backed by former junta chief Than Shwe. "If they want, the authorities can still throw me into jail for whatever reason they want," says Zayar Thaw, a hip-hop artist who didn't consider himself political until the authorities banned his music and then imprisoned him for four years. "How can you say this is a democratic government?"

All that is true. But if Suu Kyi succeeds in her quest to join parliament — by which I mean the government does not rig the vote against her — then she may have a space to use her considerable charismatic skills. Surely there are parliamentarians associated with the regime who want development for their homeland too. The Lady could be a kingmaker in the 2015 elections. "I'm no hero worshipper, but I know she's indispensable," says Win Htein, an NLD stalwart who emerged from 14 years in jail in 2010. "Even if she is not the government leader, in the people's hearts, she is already our national leader." As he speaks, the lights in the NLD's dilapidated Rangoon headquarters flicker, then die, the curse of a resource-rich country with scant public services. Burmese often find themselves in the dark. But at least now a glimmer of hope burns anew.



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