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Monday, March 5, 2012

[ALOCHONA] How to help BIMAN - BANGLADESH AIR LINES ????????




 
 
Dear all countryman
 
Yesterday I was trying to call Biman station manager in the country where I am living in abroad, her secretary replied that he has gone out for business promotion purpose, it is a good initiative ... but opposite to it the experience is follows:
 
Two years ago my wife and children stranded in dhaka due to cancellation of her confirm flight with BANGLADESH BIMAN, assumed that some one superseded her confirmed booking. After stranding for 3 days in Dhaka I managed her flight by securing a recommendation from Biman's station manager in abroad (I personally convey thanks to him)
 
In a second incident one luggage was not reach to foreign its destination, after a lot of enquiries and searched by biman authority that luggage was not found......at anyway Biman officially not compensated for that.
 
After those incident my family never fly with Biman but flying with other foreign carrier..............question is who loosing ????????????? and how to help Biman while so many Bangladeshi family living abroad as such avoiding national carrier ?
 
- Mohammed Ramjan Ali Bhuiyan




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[mukto-mona] Do not forget contributions of Allama Mashriqi: Historian urges Pak Govt



http://shafaqna.com/english/component/k2/item/676-do-not-forget-contributions-of-allama-mashriqi-historian-urges-pak-govt.html

Do not forget contributions of Allama Mashriqi: Historian urges Pak Govt

Larakana, March 4,  Scholar and historian Nasim Yousaf has said that the people of Pakistan particularly rulers must not forget that the freedom they enjoy today is a result of Allama Mashriqi's strenuous fight against the slavery of imperialist rule.

Founder of Khaksar Tehreek (KT), Allama Innayatullah Khan Al-Mashriqi is a national hero and the government must treat his legacy with the same spirit and devotion as he served the nation, Media must not overlook Allama Mashriqi's struggle for freedom Nasim said.

A noble prize nominee Allama Mashriqi made countless sacrifices to literate the nation and endured atrocities both within and outside prison he said, it is great misfortune for the people of region, then that the artifacts of this illustrious leader are now scattered or lay in ruin. He blamed for this tragedy falls primarily on the government of Pakistan.

Nasim said that the government's failure since independence that a tremendous disservice to the people of the region by its bad governance, added that the future generations would hold it responsible for this gross neglect he told.

Nasim Yousif said that the tremendous sacrifices for the nation and pivotal role in the freedom movement by Allama Mashriqi, there has been no effort by the Government to establish a single research institute or other organization to collect all of his materials, that's why it is time that Government wake up and concerted efforts to fill this void in the nation and history. It must, without further delay, establish a dedicated museum on Allama Mashriqi to house his articles, artifacts, unpublished manuscripts, and other material.

Scholar and Historian Nasim demanded that the Government also setup an Allama Mashriqi Research Institute and Chair on Mashriqi at a major university in Pakistan to centralize and coordinate the collection of all research materials related to Mashriqi on his struggle.

A grandson of Allama Mashirqi with a reference told that Mashriqi brought an unparalleled intellectual vigor and curiosity to his work in mathematics; he was a genius of exceptional caliber and his ideas often transcended the thinking of the time.

He told that Einstein and Voronov were indeed impressed with Allama Mashriqi's thought process and believed that his ideas were worth exploring. He told Mashriqi stated, both learned men were highly appreciated my point of view and felt that if the proposition was put formally before the world community of scientists, it could cause a new revolution in the world he told.




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Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done



Was Britain on our side during the 1971 liberation struggle? I must have missed/overlooked this. I knew that Britain was not like the USA, which sent its Seventh Fleet to the Bay of Bengal in December 1971 to support the Pakistani military. Britain did abstain from voting in the UN Security Council on December 4, 1971, on a US-sponsored resolution for cease-fire between India and Pakistan, which, if passed, could have stopped the liberation of Bangladesh on December 16, 1971. That resolution got the majority vote, but did not pass due a veto from the USSR. Britain certainly did not oppose that resolution to support us.
 
===========================
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2012 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done
 
Excellent post. A mild correction may be required: As a matter of fact, Britain was on our side during 1971 liberation struggle.
 
==========================================
 
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2012 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done
 
Even as I accept some of Dr. Roy's arguments, I would say that the possessors of nuclear weapons have to accept at least some of the four points that I made, in order to sell their demands for non-proliferation in terms of principles. As we know, India has been making some similar points to justify not signing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, even though the world recognizes that India is not a rogue state.
 
Pakistan's possession of nuclear weapons is, of course, too close to our home. I have no doubt that if they had those weapons to threaten India in 1971, there would be no Bangladesh at that time, and possibly not even today.
 
As for religious fanatics running some countries, I think the short-sightedness of the Western powers has nurtured the fanaticism for too long. For example, countries like the United States and Britain supported the military dictatorial Pakistan in 1971 over the brutalized people of East Bengal and over the democratic India, because the Hindu-Muslim divide in the subcontinent was advantageous for them. I think if the big powers of the world cared more about principles than selfishness, they could find smart ways to discourage religious fanaticism. For another example, the way the Western powers have operated in Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein has made that country more Islamic fanatic.
 
I do not think the communists are as bad as the religious fanatics. I know many well-established Chinese professionals in the USA who would not have a chance to be where they are had there not been the support that the communist China had provided for their poor families.
 
===================================
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               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done



Calling the country an Islamic Republic and running it according to Islamic laws already make the non-Muslims of that country less than regular citizens. The reality on the ground is also that Iran does indeed persecute religious minorities. See, for example:
 
 
The persecution and injustice against the religious minorities in Iran are being done under the guidance of the 'ayatollahs'. A truly religion-neutral advocate of human rights could not revere these fanatic 'ayatollahs' as some kind of wise scholars, nor could she/he certify like 'Iranians are not known to be cruel to their religious minorities.' May be, the Iranians are not as cruel as the other beasts in the jungle, but they are far from being civilized.
 
=================================
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 12:16 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done
 
       'Ayatollah' is a kind of higher degree in religious studies in the Iranian system.  One goes through a long and arduous and regimented strudies, having to pass many exams, and so forth in order to become an Ayatollah. Calling Ali Khameini a "religious fanatic" does not make sense -- he is a man of religion by profession. It is like calling a Catholic Cardinal or a Buddhist Mahathero a "religious fanatic."  Ayatollah Ai Khameini may be a politically shrewd man veering the country towards conservative policies against the wishes of people.  But Iranians are not known to be cruel to their religious minorities.  Having visited Iran during the Shah regime, I have a soft corner for the Iranian revolution.      However, changing the 'heading' of Robert Scheer's article at a personal whim or opinion about a "religious fanatic," whose opinion, deceptive or not, is extremely important right now in terms of averting a disastrous war in the Middle East, is a bit presumptuous.          I really do not know who to call a "religious fanatic" these days.  I certainly do not call BD Jamaatis or Indian RSS or Sangh Parivar "religious" just because they use communaliism as their tool of political oppression. Those crazies around a Protestant Church group in the USA, breeding 'creationism' down the neck of the local School Board Council, may be.  But for BD non-Muslims it seems that the term is reserved for any kind of Muslim irrespective of Shia, Wahhabi Sunni or Sufi.         Has Sukhamaya Bain cared to read the Scheer article?  I do not think so.  The article is full of up-to-date information on the various double-talks among US politicians.  He could have made intelligent comments on any one of them instead of the old hash mumbo-jumbo about "de-proliferation."   
 
========================= 
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: kamalctgu@gmail.comDate: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 06:06:08 +0600Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done 
The advent of nuclear weapon and other weapons of mass destruction has brought in relative peace compared to earlier history.  War, on a much lesser scale than before, has now shifted to the less developed countries.  Non proliferation is unattainable.  The U. N. O. should organize an equitable distribution of these materials to assure 'world peace' by mutually assured destruction (MAD).
On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Since I do not want to talk under the banner of a religious fanatic (Khameini), I have changed the heading. Looking at the new heading, it should be obvious what I think; de-proliferation should be talked about before non-proliferation.
 
The way the possessors of nuclear weapons are demanding non-proliferation by others is indeed hypocritical. There is no morality here, it is all about who has the power. I think they could ask for non-proliferation with a degree of morality only if they did the following:
 
1)      Acknowledged that it was a mistake for them to possess those weapons of mass destruction.
2)      Stopped testing for new weapons and for ensuring the effectiveness of the old weapons.
3)      Submitted a clear cut plan as to how and within how long they would bring the level of their arsenal of nuclear weapons to zero.
4)      Execute at least a part of the plan proposed in point 3 above.
 
Having said the above, I think the non-possessors of nuclear weapons should not aspire for nuclear weapons; rather they should make the above four point demands to the possessors of nuclear weapons. This, however, can be very hard; because the possessors of nuclear weapons have been ignoring such demands for the last more than half a century. Thus, the world is in a serious predicament on this. I am worried about a war of mass destruction originating in the Middle East.
 
BTW: Khameini's wise words could be just a deception. If these fanatics had any morality, they would not have made the non-Muslims of their land an inferior class of citizens.
 
 
===================================
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: naz chow <nazrulic@gmail.com>
Cc: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali Khameini
 
I do not want proliferation of nuclear weapons to cause premature death of the civilization. 
:***************************************************
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".                -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190
.


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Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done



What you are saying does not disprove the shortsightedness of American foreign policy. Now America is trapped in Pakistan and Afghanistan. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2012, at 7:05 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

It is hard to paint a beautiful picture with just one brush. Similar is the condition in politics also, especially for a superpower. Running a country is like playing the game of Chase, where one has to shift strategy based on the moves of the opponent. You talked about USA supporting military dictatorship in Pakistan in 1971, over the democratic system in India.  You know why they did so, and that was to block Soviet influence over the subcontinent. USA was engaged in an ideological cold war with Soviet Union. The fight was to block the spread of communism throughout the world. That was the major game at the time; everything else (like spreading democracy and freedom, etc.) were secondary. Pakistan took advantage of that opportunity to become a nuclear power.

 

We are all watching the recent people's movements in the Middle East, and the results are slowly coming in. The early results indicate that it's not good. Egyptians want Sharia-based constitution, Libyans wants the same also, and you have already mentioned about the rise of fanaticism in Iraq. Picture is very clear, and that is – there is a clear danger with the people's power in the Middle East.

 

What do you do in this case? You chose the bad from the worst option. That's politics. For this reason, USA will support autocratic dictatorship in the Saudi Arabia as long as there is no better option available. If you judge the situation any other way, it will be an academic exercise of an ideologue only, not a good political move. Politics is based on the reality on the ground, which may not always follow ideological path.  This is why academicians rarely make good politicians.

 
Jiten Roy

 



--- On Sun, 3/4/12, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, March 4, 2012, 8:55 PM

 
Even as I accept some of Dr. Roy's arguments, I would say that the possessors of nuclear weapons have to accept at least some of the four points that I made, in order to sell their demands for non-proliferation in terms of principles. As we know, India has been making some similar points to justify not signing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, even though the world recognizes that India is not a rogue state.
 
Pakistan's possession of nuclear weapons is, of course, too close to our home. I have no doubt that if they had those weapons to threaten India in 1971, there would be no Bangladesh at that time, and possibly not even today.
 
As for religious fanatics running some countries, I think the short-sightedness of the Western powers has nurtured the fanaticism for too long. For example, countries like the United States and Britain supported the military dictatorial Pakistan in 1971 over the brutalized people of East Bengal and over the democratic India, because the Hindu-Muslim divide in the subcontinent was advantageous for them. I think if the big powers of the world cared more about principles than selfishness, they could find smart ways to discourage religious fanaticism. For another example, the way the Western powers have operated in Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein has made that country more Islamic fanatic.
 
I do not think the communists are as bad as the religious fanatics. I know many well-established Chinese professionals in the USA who would not have a chance to be where they are had there not been the support that the communist China had provided for their poor families.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
===================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2012 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done
 
The world will never be free of nuclear arsenals. Therefore, wishing for that is like wishing to meet God in person. We have to be realistic in what we wish for. If we accept that fact then we can discuss this issue wisely. There are countries in the world, which should not be allowed to have nuclear weapons, and religious/ideological fanatics run these countries. These fanatics are mostly erratic and unpredictable, because they are guided by the divine/heavenly instructions from God or ideological authoritarian doctrines. I know some of them, North Korea, Pakistan, etc., have nuclear weapons, and the world is dealing with the consequences. We don not have the luxury to increase the list. These are not toys.
 
This is the way I see this issue - we give guns to the cop and to the soldier, but not the thugs and drug dealers. You won't give a diamond necklace to a monkey. Will you? Some may argue that since thugs and drug dealers got guns illegally anyway, lets give guns to everybody. That is not an acceptable proposition yet.
 
The bottom line is - people who do not value their own lives cannot value the lives of others.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Sun, 3/4/12, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, March 4, 2012, 9:44 AM

 
Since I do not want to talk under the banner of a religious fanatic (Khameini), I have changed the heading. Looking at the new heading, it should be obvious what I think; de-proliferation should be talked about before non-proliferation.
 
The way the possessors of nuclear weapons are demanding non-proliferation by others is indeed hypocritical. There is no morality here, it is all about who has the power. I think they could ask for non-proliferation with a degree of morality only if they did the following:
 
1)      Acknowledged that it was a mistake for them to possess those weapons of mass destruction.
2)      Stopped testing for new weapons and for ensuring the effectiveness of the old weapons.
3)      Submitted a clear cut plan as to how and within how long they would bring the level of their arsenal of nuclear weapons to zero.
4)      Execute at least a part of the plan proposed in point 3 above.
 
Having said the above, I think the non-possessors of nuclear weapons should not aspire for nuclear weapons; rather they should make the above four point demands to the possessors of nuclear weapons. This, however, can be very hard; because the possessors of nuclear weapons have been ignoring such demands for the last more than half a century. Thus, the world is in a serious predicament on this. I am worried about a war of mass destruction originating in the Middle East .
 
BTW: Khameini's wise words could be just a deception. If these fanatics had any morality, they would not have made the non-Muslims of their land an inferior class of citizens.
Sukhamaya Bain
 
===================================
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: naz chow <nazrulic@gmail.com>
Cc: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali Khameini
 
I do not want proliferation of nuclear weapons to cause premature death of the civilization.  Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 3, 2012, at 3:29 PM, naz chow <nazrulic@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for your opinion. But, reality is power is all controlling/ enjoying everything in the world, if you see the history. So, to counter against those co


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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali Khameini



No. Israel cannot be ignored by America. There are obvious reasons. 
Ego, feeling of uncertainty, speculation, etc. will be there. Moreover there is internal politics and wish to win voters. Whatever it may be I do not one more country to have this evil power. Rather the world needs to in reverse direction. Japan is doing fine without it. India is not better off. I do not want darkness at noon. It is my wish. I can tell you Iran will do good without it. We need least tension in the world. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 5, 2012, at 1:54 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 

With due respect, this is a "Pie in the sky answer".

I wanted to know if you think (Realistically) even US has the power to ask Israel to leave all nukes?
Now If Iran sees Israel as a threat to it's existence, should it not avail nukes like Israel?

Again I am against all such weapons but our world is not full of sugar and spices (And everything nice). We have some very bad actors who want to go for another war.

Wanted to hear your ideas on this...


Shalom!




-----Original Message-----
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Mar 5, 2012 1:12 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali Khameini

 
Nuclear bomb is the worst thing man has invested in. Probably it is not too late. Mad competition must be stopped. Next step should be to gradually destroy the arsenal lying scattered throughout the world until the inventory is reduced to zero.

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali Khameini
 
:-)

I have no problem with your ideas either. No nation should have nukes!!

HOWEVER are you going impose "Sanctions" on Israel until it dismantles her nukes?

You need to have a level playing field when dealing with different nations. Israel has been attacking her neighbors and if you want to force Iranian (Or other nations for that matter ) NOT to have any nukes, you need to ensure they are not facing any "Nuke threats" from aggressive countries like Israel.

I have no problem in having sanctions against Iran BUT clearly there is a double standard on this issue. That is what Mr. Anwar is talking about.

I am glad to see Ayatuallahs of Iran think nukes are sinful. I hope more countries of that region joins him declaring it a nuke free zone.


Shalom!


-----Original Message----- From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: Mohiuddin Anwar <mohiuddin@netzero.net> Cc: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; dahuk <dahuk@yahoogroups.com>; ovimot <ovimot@yahoogroups.com>; jnrsr53 <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>; chottala <chottala@yahoogroups.com>; odhora <odhora@yahoogroups.com>; nazrulic <nazrulic@gmail.com>; syed.aslam3 <syed.aslam3@gmail.com>; akhtergolam <akhtergolam@gmail.com>; liaquat707 <liaquat707@gmail.com> Sent: Sat, Mar 3, 2012 7:57 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali Khameini
 
Mr. Anwar's opinions are self contradictory. There must not be any 'If ----------then" logic. No country should have it. The countries which have it must destroy it. There must be absolutely "No" to nuclear arsenal. 
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 3, 2012, at 1:23 AM, "Mohiuddin Anwar" <mohiuddin@netzero.net> wrote:
Why nobody is talking about Israeli nukes?
Most critics believe Israel posses huge nuclear arsenal with the help from her western  backers.
Why state of Israel has immunity to keep its nukes ?
Why civilized western world never talk about vast arsenal of Israeli nukes?
If  poor nations like India, Pakistan can obtain nukes,  why it's wrong for other rich nations  in Middle East  to have it, even they can't even think about this nukes?
Is nuclear  the monopoly of selected nations ?
Why nuclear discrimination continuing in modern World?
My understanding is that not only nukes, all  unconventional deadly weapons should be eliminated for a peaceful World.
We heard about Nuclear Chapabazi(Lie) by western powers about so called Iraqi Nukes before attacking Iraq to destroy its nukes, but
unfortunately, nothing found but million human lives were lost for this Chapabazi(Lie). Why such devastation ? To protect whom?
Nobody paid price or questioned for this Chapabazi(Lie)
My understanding is that, If Israel can posses Nukes, than why my motherland Bangladesh can't  also get nukes to protect its  territorial integrity from foreign aggression?
Finally to protect  the volatile Middle East , Middle East should be declared 'Nuclear Free Zone' by the United Nations and enforced by all Big Powers
 
---------- Original Message ---------- From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> To: Undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali Khameini Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:35:43 -0500
 
         I think religion does have a place in politics, as a voice in the public arena, but a voice speaking from a moral high ground above the fray, not as one of the manipulating, cheating, indoctrinating tool in the hands of one of the parties jostling for power.            The infested mindset of the Pakistani glory and pride in owning the 'Islamic Bomb' is an outdated and tiresome 'wannabe like the West' or better and 'holier than thou' mindset that should look for a permanent cure soon.                Farida Majid =======================   <<  Neither Iraq nor Iran had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks that launched our nation on a never-ending and essentially irrational �war on terror.� Irrational, because the terrorist enemy has come to be defined through political convenience rather than through an objective threat assessment. Iran�s Shiite leaders were sworn enemies of Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaida, which was inspired and financed by the Wahhabi Sunnis of Saudi Arabia. >>    

The Ayatollah Is Right About One Thing: Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful

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Posted on Feb 29, 2012
AP / Vahid Salemi
A pro-government Iranian demonstrator holds a poster with photos of the late revolutionary founder Ayatollah Khomeini, right, and supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, at an annual demonstration in front of the former U.S. Embassy in Tehran.
 
Given my own deep prejudice toward religious zealotry, it has not been difficult for me to accept the conventional American view that Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the supreme theocratic ruler of Iran, is a dangerous madman never to be trusted with a nuclear weapon. How then to explain his recent seemingly logical and humane religious proclamations on the immorality of nuclear weapons? His statement challenges the acceptance of nuclear war-fighting as an option by every U.S. president since Harry Truman, who, in 1945, ordered the deaths of 185,000 mostly innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 
�We do not see any glory, pride or power in the nuclear weapons�quite the opposite,� Iran�s Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi said Tuesday in summarizing the ayatollah�s views. Salehi added, �The production, possession, use or threat of use of nuclear weapons are illegitimate, futile, harmful, dangerous and prohibited as a great sin.�
 
Of course, the ayatollah�s position will be largely interpreted by the media and politicians in the United States as a devious trick to lull critics, but words of such clarity will not be so easily dismissed by his devout followers. They are words that one wishes our own government would embrace to add moral consistency to our condemnation of other countries we claim might be joining us in holding nuclear arms.
 
As awkward as it may be to recall, it was the United States that gifted the world with these sinful weapons. And even more to the point of assessing sin, ours is the only nation that has ever used such weapons toward their intended purpose of killing large numbers of the innocent. That fact alone should provoke some measure of humility in responding to Salehi�s offer this week at the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva to negotiate a treaty banning nuclear weapons.
 


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Fw: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done



It is hard to paint a beautiful picture with just one brush. Similar is the condition in politics also, especially for a superpower. Running a country is like playing the game of Chase, where one has to shift strategy based on the moves of the opponent. You talked about USA supporting military dictatorship in Pakistan in 1971, over the democratic system in India.  You know why they did so, and that was to block Soviet influence over the subcontinent. USA was engaged in an ideological cold war with Soviet Union. The fight was to block the spread of communism throughout the world. That was the major game at the time; everything else (like spreading democracy and freedom, etc.) were secondary. Pakistan took advantage of that opportunity to become a nuclear power.

 

We are all watching the recent people's movements in the Middle East, and the results are slowly coming in. The early results indicate that it's not good. Egyptians want Sharia-based constitution, Libyans wants the same also, and you have already mentioned about the rise of fanaticism in Iraq. Picture is very clear, and that is – there is a clear danger with the people's power in the Middle East.

 

What do you do in this case? You chose the bad from the worst option. That's politics. For this reason, USA will support autocratic dictatorship in the Saudi Arabia as long as there is no better option available. If you judge the situation any other way, it will be an academic exercise of an ideologue only, not a good political move. Politics is based on the reality on the ground, which may not always follow ideological path.  This is why academicians rarely make good politicians.

 
Jiten Roy

 



--- On Sun, 3/4/12, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, March 4, 2012, 8:55 PM

 
Even as I accept some of Dr. Roy's arguments, I would say that the possessors of nuclear weapons have to accept at least some of the four points that I made, in order to sell their demands for non-proliferation in terms of principles. As we know, India has been making some similar points to justify not signing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, even though the world recognizes that India is not a rogue state.
 
Pakistan's possession of nuclear weapons is, of course, too close to our home. I have no doubt that if they had those weapons to threaten India in 1971, there would be no Bangladesh at that time, and possibly not even today.
 
As for religious fanatics running some countries, I think the short-sightedness of the Western powers has nurtured the fanaticism for too long. For example, countries like the United States and Britain supported the military dictatorial Pakistan in 1971 over the brutalized people of East Bengal and over the democratic India, because the Hindu-Muslim divide in the subcontinent was advantageous for them. I think if the big powers of the world cared more about principles than selfishness, they could find smart ways to discourage religious fanaticism. For another example, the way the Western powers have operated in Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein has made that country more Islamic fanatic.
 
I do not think the communists are as bad as the religious fanatics. I know many well-established Chinese professionals in the USA who would not have a chance to be where they are had there not been the support that the communist China had provided for their poor families.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
===================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2012 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done
 
The world will never be free of nuclear arsenals. Therefore, wishing for that is like wishing to meet God in person. We have to be realistic in what we wish for. If we accept that fact then we can discuss this issue wisely. There are countries in the world, which should not be allowed to have nuclear weapons, and religious/ideological fanatics run these countries. These fanatics are mostly erratic and unpredictable, because they are guided by the divine/heavenly instructions from God or ideological authoritarian doctrines. I know some of them, North Korea, Pakistan, etc., have nuclear weapons, and the world is dealing with the consequences. We don not have the luxury to increase the list. These are not toys.
 
This is the way I see this issue - we give guns to the cop and to the soldier, but not the thugs and drug dealers. You won't give a diamond necklace to a monkey. Will you? Some may argue that since thugs and drug dealers got guns illegally anyway, lets give guns to everybody. That is not an acceptable proposition yet.
 
The bottom line is - people who do not value their own lives cannot value the lives of others.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Sun, 3/4/12, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Nuclear de-proliferation and non-proliferation must be done
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, March 4, 2012, 9:44 AM

 
Since I do not want to talk under the banner of a religious fanatic (Khameini), I have changed the heading. Looking at the new heading, it should be obvious what I think; de-proliferation should be talked about before non-proliferation.
 
The way the possessors of nuclear weapons are demanding non-proliferation by others is indeed hypocritical. There is no morality here, it is all about who has the power. I think they could ask for non-proliferation with a degree of morality only if they did the following:
 
1)      Acknowledged that it was a mistake for them to possess those weapons of mass destruction.
2)      Stopped testing for new weapons and for ensuring the effectiveness of the old weapons.
3)      Submitted a clear cut plan as to how and within how long they would bring the level of their arsenal of nuclear weapons to zero.
4)      Execute at least a part of the plan proposed in point 3 above.
 
Having said the above, I think the non-possessors of nuclear weapons should not aspire for nuclear weapons; rather they should make the above four point demands to the possessors of nuclear weapons. This, however, can be very hard; because the possessors of nuclear weapons have been ignoring such demands for the last more than half a century. Thus, the world is in a serious predicament on this. I am worried about a war of mass destruction originating in the Middle East .
 
BTW: Khameini's wise words could be just a deception. If these fanatics had any morality, they would not have made the non-Muslims of their land an inferior class of citizens.
Sukhamaya Bain
 
===================================
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: naz chow <nazrulic@gmail.com>
Cc: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali Khameini
 
I do not want proliferation of nuclear weapons to cause premature death of the civilization.  Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 3, 2012, at 3:29 PM, naz chow <nazrulic@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for your opinion. But, reality is power is all controlling/ enjoying everything in the world, if you see the history. So, to counter against those countries, every country should have nuclear weapons. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 3, 2012, at 2:51 PM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
No country should have it. It is not safe in any country's hand. American atomic bombs killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
From: naz chow <nazrulic@gmail.com>
To: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali Khameini
I do not understand why you are against Iran because of America and Israel, also India. My question is if those countries possess nuclear weapons, every country has right to have those. For the sake of not have other countries, what America and Israel have done attacked and distroyed Iraq. It is not good practice in the civilized world. It is like rule of jungle. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 3, 2012, at 11:31 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
Not only America, many muslim countries will also not like Iranian nuclear bomb. To Saudi Arabia, Iran is a ferocious poisonous snake ready to strike any moment and hence it's throat needs to be cut (please remember a news item several months old). If Mr. Anwar is advocationg for Iran to be allowed to make nuclear bombs, he is doing it to be politically correct. Being a fan of Saudi rule and policies, he will definitely not want a Shiite country to possess nuclear bombs. American foreign ploicy has proved many a time to be a myopic one. One example is letting Pakistan (to be more specific---acceptance of nuclear weapon in Pakistan) to possess nuclear capability.
Why nobody is talking about Israeli nukes?
Most critics believe Israel posses huge nuclear arsenal with the help from her western  backers.
Why state of Israel has immunity to keep its nukes ?
Why civilized western world never talk about vast arsenal of Israeli nukes?
If  poor nations like India, Pakistan can obtain nukes,  why it's wrong for other rich nations  in Middle East  to have it, even they can't even think about this nukes?
Is nuclear  the monopoly of selected nations ?
Why nuclear discrimination continuing in modern World?
My understanding is that not only nukes, all  unconventional deadly weapons should be eliminated for a peaceful World.
We heard about Nuclear Chapabazi(Lie) by western powers about so called Iraqi Nukes before attacking Iraq to destroy its nukes, but
unfortunately, nothing found but million human lives were lost for this Chapabazi(Lie). Why such devastation ? To protect whom?
Nobody paid price or questioned for this Chapabazi(Lie)
My understanding is that, If Israel can posses Nukes, than why my motherland Bangladesh can't  also get nukes to protect its  territorial integrity from foreign aggression?
Finally to protect  the volatile Middle East , Middle East should be declared 'Nuclear Free Zone' by the United Nations and enforced by all Big Powers
 
---------- Original Message ----------From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>To: Undisclosed-recipients:;Subject: [mukto-mona] Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful: Ayatollah Ali KhameiniDate: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:35:43 -0500
 
         I think religion does have a place in politics, as a voice in the public arena, but a voice speaking from a moral high ground above the fray, not as one of the manipulating, cheating, indoctrinating tool in the hands of one of the parties jostling for power.          The infested mindset of the Pakistani glory and pride in owning the 'Islamic Bomb' is an outdated and tiresome 'wannabe like the West' or better and 'holier than thou' mindset that should look for a permanent cure soon.              Farida Majid
 
======================= <<  Neither Iraq nor Iran had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks that launched our nation on a never-ending and essentially irrational �war on terror.� Irrational, because the terrorist enemy has come to be defined through political convenience rather than through an objective threat assessment. Iran�s Shiite leaders were sworn enemies of Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaida, which was inspired and financed by the Wahhabi Sunnis of Saudi Arabia. >>  

The Ayatollah Is Right About One Thing: Nuclear Weapons Are Sinful

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Posted on Feb 29, 2012
AP / Vahid Salemi
A pro-government Iranian demonstrator holds a poster with photos of the late revolutionary founder Ayatollah Khomeini, right, and supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, at an annual demonstration in front of the former U.S. Embassy in Tehran.
 
Given my own deep prejudice toward religious zealotry, it has not been difficult for me to accept the conventional American view that Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the supreme theocratic ruler of Iran, is a dangerous madman never to be trusted with a nuclear weapon. How then to explain his recent seemingly logical and humane religious proclamations on the immorality of nuclear weapons? His statement challenges the acceptance of nuclear war-fighting as an option by every U.S. president since Harry Truman, who, in 1945, ordered the deaths of 185,000 mostly innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 
�We do not see any glory, pride or power in the nuclear weapons�quite the opposite,� Iran�s Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi said Tuesday in summarizing the ayatollah�s views. Salehi added, �The production, possession, use or threat of use of nuclear weapons are illegitimate, futile, harmful, dangerous and prohibited as a great sin.�
 
Of course, the ayatollah�s position will be largely interpreted by the media and politicians in the United States as a devious trick to lull critics, but words of such clarity will not be so easily dismissed by his devout followers. They are words that one wishes our own government would embrace to add moral consistency to our condemnation of other countries we claim might be joining us in holding nuclear arms.
 
As awkward as it may be to recall, it was the United States that gifted the world with these sinful weapons. And even more to the point of assessing sin, ours is the only nation that has ever used such weapons toward their intended purpose of killing large numbers of the innocent. That fact alone should provoke some measure of humility in responding to Salehi�s offer this week at the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva to negotiate a treaty banning nuclear weapons.
 
Unfortunately, his remarks were all too predictably met with swift condemnation by the United States. Laura E. Kennedy, the American ambassador to the conference, said that Iran�s claim to be opposed to such weapons �stands in sharp contrast� to that nation�s failure to comply with international obligations. But the fact is that the administration she represents has stated that there is as yet no evidence that Iran is committed to building a nuclear bomb.
 
 
She is right that Iran�s resistance to inspection �is hardly illustrative of a commitment to nuclear disarmament,� but such a remark is grotesquely hypocritical coming from the representative of a nation that has produced more than half of the world�s nuclear arsenal under the most severe conditions of secrecy. It is also true that U.S. acceptance of nuclear weapons in Israel and Pakistan, both of which have been recipients of American military aid despite breaking international nonproliferation codes to which U.S. presidents have long subscribed, is hardly a sign of consistency on this issue.
 
 
It is obvious, in a week when the U.S. welcomed North Korea�s renewed commitment to inspections, that even the most recalcitrant of nations can be induced to reason. The treatment of Iran is complicated by this being a U.S. election season, during which the Republican candidates, with the exception of Ron Paul, have been beating the war drums over what they claim is Iran�s nuclear threat. In no way has the GOP�s zeal for military confrontation been chastened by the fact that a similar crusade in 2003 by Republican hawks l


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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

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VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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