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Monday, December 9, 2013

Re: [mukto-mona] Philippines: 60-YEAR-OLD SINGER CONVERTS TO ISLAM -- MARRIES 16-YEAR-OLD



The singer will have to give up singing as music and singing is not considered Islamic.

Sanjeev


On Tuesday, 10 December 2013 5:51 AM, Jamal G. Khan <M.JamalGhaus@gmail.com> wrote:
 

60-YEAR-OLD SINGER CONVERTS TO ISLAM -- MARRIES 16-YEAR-OLD

Want to marry a child? Pedophilia? Perhaps rape and murder is your thing? Convert! It's righteous.
Aguilar weds teenaged girlfriend in Muslim rites By Allan Nawal, Inquirer Mindanao (thanks to The Religion of Peace)
BULUAN, Maguindanao – The crowd waiting inside BBMG Restaurant here turned toward the doorway as the emcee announced the arrival of Freddie Aguilar.
In dark sunglasses, the folk singer strode in, wearing a tubao on his head and a silky white long-sleeved shirt accented with black and gold. He and his retinue headed straight to a stage where he waited for his bride, a 16-year-old girl from Oriental Mindoro.
It was 4:36 p.m., more than an hour behind schedule for the Muslim wedding which the 60-year-old folksinger agreed to be officiated here after he and his girlfriend converted to Islam so they could get married. Philippine law requires a girl to be at least 18 years old to get married whereas Muslim Sharia law requires only that a girl be in puberty.
Screen Shot 2013-11-22 at 12.51.19 PM
Freddie Aguilar and his bride during their Muslim wedding rites. Photo by Allan Nawal
Aguilar, according to Maguindanao Gov. Esmael Mangudadatu, will be known henceforth as Abdul Fared while his bride also adopted a Muslim name—Sittie Mariam.
Mangudadatu said he had personally suggested to Aguilar that the wedding be held here.
At about 4:45 p.m., the bride arrived and was fetched by Mangudadatu, who acted as the "wali" or godfather. He also earlier adopted Sittie Mariam as his daughter so he could give her away to the groom in the absence of the girl's parents.
Wearing a gold-colored silk gown and a Thai-inspired headdress, a beaming Sittie Mariam casually walked toward the stage, where Aguilar waited.
"She's really in love with Freddie," a woman murmurred as the bride moved closer to the stage.
At about 4:55 p.m., the ustadz assisting in the wedding of Aguilar asked Mangudadatu if the union had the blessings of the girl's parents.
In response, Mangudadatu took out a piece of yellow paper, which he said contained the consent that the bride's parents had written.
"If it was not for this, this marriage would have not taken place," Mangudadatu, smiling at the crowd.
alt
The couple listens as an ustadz recite koranic verses and deliver sermon as a prelude to the wedding. With them is Godfather and maguindanao Gov Esmael Mangudadatu. Photo by Allan Nawal Inquirer Mindanao
"They have our support and blessing," Mangudadatu quoted the girl's father in the note.
Aguilar was obviously ecstatic and replied "yes" after Mangudadatu asked if he had come voluntarily to wed the girl and if he was serious about his marriage.
Sittie Mariam said she was willing, too, and nobody had forced her.
Asked if she would be a good wife, she responded, "Insha Allah (God willing)."
It was five minutes past 5 p.m. when Aguilar planted a kiss on Sittie Mariam's cheek. The crowd cheered.
In less than 30 minutes, Aguilar and Sittie Mariam were legally married – under Islamic rites.
Aguilar was thrown back into into the limelight when he broke the news he had a teenaged girlfriend and that they planned to get married. He was widely criticized as a child exploiter and was even charged by a private lawyer with the little known crime of "qualified seduction."
Under Philippine civil law, a 16-year-old girl is not allowed to marry. But Maguindanao second district Rep. Sajid Mangudadatu said that in Islam, girls who have reached the age of puberty are allowed with their their parents consent.
"When a girl menstruates, it means she can already marry," Representative Mangudadatu said.
In earlier news reports, Aguilar, who claimed to be a "born-again" Christian,  said he would do "whatever it takes even if it would mean converting into Islam" to marry his girlfriend.
He was also quoted as saying he had no problem changing religions because his fans and "big names" in the Muslim community had always been supportive of his controversial affair.
Aguilar was quiet most of the time during the wedding and did not comment on his choice of Buluan as venue for his marriage. He had said in an earlier news report that his grilfriend's family had only one request, and that was that the wedding be in their hometown.
Aguilar had divorced her second wife, Antonette Martinez in 2005. His first wife was Josephine Ponce Queipo, with whom he has six children.
They lived together for 22 years before divorcing in London.
Governor Mangudadatu said he could not say where the Abdul Fared-Sittie Mariam relationship was headed  but he was hopeful that it would last.
He said he agreed to solemnize the wedding under Presidential Decree 1083 because he believed in the relationship of the lovers.
Mangudadatu said he also believed  that Aguilar's conversion to Islam was for real and not just to be able to marry his girlfriend.
"Even as early as 2011, he already had an inclination to embrace Islam. That was prior to meeting the girl," he said.
Mangudadatu said Aguilar would be accountable to God if his conversion to Islam was just for convenience.


Video:

Freddie Aguilar And 16-Year-Old Girlfriend Muslim Wedding

Re: Freddie Aguilar converts to Islam, marries 16-year-old girlfriend:




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[mukto-mona] এ জন্যই কি বাংলাদেশের সন্তানরা প্রাণ দিয়েছিল?




Dear Readers,

1. No - the "Bangladesh Liberation War" did not happen to see its current unacceptable and painful state.
2. Only you - the conscious citizens of Bangladesh - jointly - can save our motherland from its ongoing crisis.
3. Please STOP these power hungry politicians and killers from destroying Bangladesh and her innocent citizens' lives.


With best regards,
Muktijoddha Dr. Emarat Hossain Pannah (USA)
================================================================================
Dr. Em Pannah, CISSP, CISM, CAP, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM, Graduate Certificate in Cybersecurity, M.Sc., BS/MS, DM
Cybersecurity/Privacy/Information Assurance/IT Risk Management Professional and
Assistant Professor
Email: epannah@yahoo.com | Alternate Email: em.pannah@faculty.umuc.edu
Phones: 301.358.9232 (Office) | 301.358.1912 (Fax) | 443.690.3955 (Cell)
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From: Nazrul Islam <nazrulislam2361@yahoo.com>
To: notun_bangladesh@yahoogroups.com
Cc: chottala@yahoogroups.com; "dahuk@yahoogroups.com" alapon@yahoogroups.com" <dahuk@yahoogroups.com>; "dhossain@citech.net" <dhossain@citech.net>; "editor@dailystar.net" <editor@dailystar.net>; khabor <khabor@yahoogroups.com>; "letters@dhakatribune.com" <letters@dhakatribune.com>; "ourdemocracy@rtvbd.tv" <ourdemocracy@rtvbd.tv>; "sangbaddesk@gmail.com" <sangbaddesk@gmail.com>; "shossain@khossain.com" <shossain@khossain.com>
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 3:03 PM
Subject: [notun_bangladesh] ড. কামালের চ্যালেঞ্জ

 

PLEASE READ

আমাদের সামনে খোঁড়া অজুহাত দাঁড় করাবেন না। সংবিধানের বাইরে নির্বাচনের কোন বিকল্প নেই, এটি একটি অজুহাত। এই সংশোধনীর কোথাও নির্দলীয় নিরপেক্ষ সরকারের অধীনে নির্বাচন করা যাবে না- এমন উল্লেখ নেই। উচ্চ আদালতের আদেশে আরও দুটি টার্ম নির্দলীয় নিরপেক্ষ সরকারের অধীনে নির্বাচন করার বিষয়ে স্পষ্ট নির্দেশনা দেয়া আছে। এ বিষয়ে খোলামেলা বিতর্ক করতে চাই। ---Dr. Kamal Hossain

ড. কামালের চ্যালেঞ্জ

স্টাফ রিপোর্টার | ৭ ডিসেম্বর ২০১৩, শনিবার, ১০:২৭ | মতামত: ৭ টি
undefined গণফোরাম সভাপতি ও সংবিধানের অন্যতম প্রণেতা ড. কামাল হোসেন বলেছেন, নির্দলীয় নিরপেক্ষ সরকার ও নিরপেক্ষ নির্বাচন কমিশন না হলে আগামী নির্বাচন সুষ্ঠু হবে না। এ ক্ষেত্রে সংবিধানের পঞ্চদশ সংশোধনী কোন বাধা নয়। জনগণের জন্য, জনগণের শান্তির জন্য পঞ্চদশ সংশোধনীকে বাদ দিয়েই নির্বাচন করতে হবে। তিনি সরকারের প্রতি চ্যালেঞ্জ ছুড়ে দিয়ে বলেন, কথায় কথায় পঞ্চদশ সংশোধনীর কথা বলেন। আমাদের সামনে খোঁড়া অজুহাত দাঁড় করাবেন না। সংবিধানের বাইরে নির্বাচনের কোন বিকল্প নেই, এটি একটি অজুহাত। এই সংশোধনীর কোথাও নির্দলীয় নিরপেক্ষ সরকারের অধীনে নির্বাচন করা যাবে না- এমন উল্লেখ নেই। উচ্চ আদালতের আদেশে আরও দুটি টার্ম নির্দলীয় নিরপেক্ষ সরকারের অধীনে নির্বাচন করার বিষয়ে স্পষ্ট নির্দেশনা দেয়া আছে। এ বিষয়ে খোলামেলা বিতর্ক করতে চাই। কে অংশ নেবেন, আমাদের সামনে আসুন। গতকাল ৬ই ডিসেম্বর স্বৈরাচার পতন দিবস উপলক্ষে কেন্দ্রীয় শহীদ মিনারে গণফোরাম আয়োজিত এক সমাবেশে এসব কথা বলেন তিনি। ড. কামাল বলেন, আমরা কোন বিরোধী পক্ষে নই। দেশের শান্তি ও নীতির প্রশ্নে আজ আমরা ঐক্যবদ্ধ। এই দেশ কোন গোষ্ঠীর, দলের বা মানুষের নয়। দেশের ১৬ কোটি মানুষ শান্তি চায়। জনগণের ক্ষমতায়নের জন্য জনগণের ঐক্যবদ্ধ জয় প্রয়োজন। এ জন্য দরকার নিরপেক্ষ নির্বাচন। চলমান রাজনীতি গভীরভাবে রোগাক্রান্ত উল্লেখ করে তিনি বলেন, বিবেককে জাগ্রত করতে হবে। নির্বাচনের নামে জ্বালাও-পোড়াও শুরু হয়েছে। আমরা দেশের ভেতরে আর কোন যুদ্ধ চাই না একটি স্বচ্ছ নির্বাচনের জন্য আগুন নয়। বুকের আগুনই যথেষ্ট। দুদলকে দেশের মানুষ, আইনের শাসন ও সংবিধানের প্রতি শ্রদ্ধাশীল হতে হবে। প্রধানমন্ত্রী শেখ হাসিনার প্রতি ইঙ্গিত করে গণফোরাম সভাপতি বলেন ২০০৮-এ নির্বাচন করিয়ে দিলাম। কৃতজ্ঞতা চাইনি। ১৪ দলে আমরাও ছিলাম। সেই ১৪ দলের নামে নিরপেক্ষ নির্বাচনকে বিতর্কিত করা হচ্ছে। দেশ ধ্বংস হোক আর আপনি আপসহীন থাকবেন এটা হতে পারে না। বিশেষ অতিথির বক্তব্যে নাগরিক ঐক্যের আহ্বায়ক মাহমুদুর রহমান মান্না বলেন, বাংলাদেশের গণতন্ত্র হুসেইন মুহম্মদ এরশাদের ওপর নির্ভর করে, এটি বড় লজ্জার। তিনি বলেন, ৬ই ডিসেম্বর নিয়ে আমরা এখন গর্ব করতে পারি না। ওই পতিত স্বৈরাচার দাঁত বের করে হাসছেন আর বলছেন 'দেখো আমাকে কত দরকার'। মান্না বলেন, এরা লোভী। আর এদের লোভ দেখান প্রধানমন্ত্রী। যে পাপ এরশাদ করছেন সেই পাপ করার জন্য সহযোগিতা করছেন প্রধানমন্ত্রী। এরশাদবিরোধী আন্দোলনে গুলিতে নিহত শহীদ ডা. মিলনের মা সেলিনা আক্তার বলেন, স্বৈরাচারকে নিয়ে যে অসুস্থ রাজনীতি শুরু হয়েছে, তা বন্ধ হওয়া দরকার। দুই নেত্রী তাকে ক্ষমতায় যাওয়ার মাধ্যম হিসাবে ব্যবহার করতে চান। তিনি আক্ষেপ করে বলেন, এ জন্যই কি আমাদের সন্তানরা প্রাণ দিয়েছিল? সমাবেশে আরও বক্তব্য রাখেন গণফোরামের সাধারণ সম্পাদক মোস্তফা মহসিন মন্টু, সাংগঠনিক সম্পাদক মোস্তাক আহমেদ প্রমুখ। 




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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [notun_bangladesh] Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy submarines from China



Mr. QR, does SOB mean son of a bitch? If that's what meant, I must say your hatred for India exceeds that of the collaborators. How do you know Indian army wanted to stay on their own, not at the request of the administration? Why did they leave any way? Under pressure from America? When you make a strong statement, you have to be prepared to substantiate your statement. Muktomona is not Paltan Maidan. 

You are deliberately making repeated mistakes. I have no love for AL. I have passionate love for 1972 constitution, which you do not care about. You do not believe in secularism for example. 

You make strong statements out of blind hatred for India. Please be specific. Again it is not Paltan Maidan. Which domestic issue has been decided by India? I think by shaking off pre-1972 Pakistan mentality, you can make your analysis more rational. 


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 9, 2013, at 2:19 AM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 

Gentlemen,

I do not need to prove about Indian intentions, it is visible by people with an open mind. Today our domestic issues are discussed and even decided by India. So the train left that station. However you may have "Extra ordinary love" for India, which forbids you to see reality. It is pointless to continue to discuss it.

Yes, I can be specific (SOB part). Those Indian army who wanted to stay in Bangladesh for a very long time. We'll ALWAYS appreciate their help (It was a win-win partnership) but I do not think we wanted new masters when we fought the war of independence.

You do not need to explain your political choices. You are free to support anyone you like.

Unfortunately (Most of us) support parties based on emotion (Not about policy, effectiveness, honestly etc). So I try to stay away from it as much as possible. If BAL could deliver it's promises, I would be very happy for them and Bangladesh. Still I do not see much differences between BNP or BAL. So it is not an important issue for me.


  If supporting the  "Shanti" was wrong, so was supporting the liberation movement of Bangladesh.

>>>>>>>>> Since we are part of same land mass, it is better to politically tackle this issue. Fighting will not bring peace and I support the idea of talking to tribal people to solve issues.

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [notun_bangladesh] Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy submarines from China

 
"No doubt India actively supported Shantibahini. Obviously that was not right."- SC

Lopsided info can lead to uncharted area.  The tribal insurgency was a consequence of withdrawing their right as a protected people.  Their land (community property) was grabbed and redistributed to mostly Muslim non-tribal.  Not even Pakistan did what Bangladesh did to them!  If supporting the  "Shanti" was wrong, so was supporting the liberation movement of Bangladesh.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
1. Can you prove that India wants to be your master, not friend? Is your statement not too strong? 

2. If China wants to use Bangladesh as a tool to expand it's sphere of influence in the Bay of Bengal, is it not natural for India to express concern and talk with Bangladesh? 

3. Talpotti, sharing water, border killings, etc. need to be resolved, no doubt. I believe these can be solved through friendly talks. Sharing water is more complicated as it involves two governments---central and provincial---in India. Any way, it is the responsibility of the Indian government with which only Bangladesh can talk. 

4. No doubt India actively supported Shantibahini. Obviously that was not right. But don't pretend to be naive. Security-wise, India probably is more vulnerable when BNP is in power as we have read reports on ISI connection in destabilizing regional peace in India. 

5. Can you be specific? Who were those SOBs? 

6. Why is India putting fence and observation towers in the borders? What is your guess? It is obviously humiliating for Bangladesh. But is it really hampering the national interests of Bangladesh in any way? Mexico would love to see no Americans patrolling the border although all the costs are being borne by America. 

7. Politics is a vital part of our every day life. Why do you hesitate to talk about it and the political parties and the politicians? I was never a member of Chhatra League or AL. But I have never kept it secret that of all the major parties (AL, BNP, JP, and Jamaat), my best preference would be AL. They are absolutely not the same animals. My assertion is based on my own ideology. I am for going back to 1972 constitution and make it better. I am happy that war criminals have been brought to justice. I can expect these to a great extent only from AL. 

8. I always respect common people. I hope you have noticed it. I was talking about rabid anti-Indians. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 8, 2013, at 6:50 AM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
1. China's track record is not good. China is not on good terms with Taiwan. Dalailama is not happy with what China is doing to Tibet. Muslims in Uyghur are not happy with the Chinese administration. China occupies about 10,000 square miles of Indian territory and also a part of J&K (alleged to be a gift by Pakistan). China was against our war of independence. More informed people will come up with more about China.

>>>>>>>>>> This will be a very long post if I have go around other sides of China or India. So decided stay close to our neighborhood. China has been much better to Bangladesh than India. As a Bangladeshi this should be OUR starting point.

India should have been our best friend but it wants to be our master. We had British masters, Pakistani masters and we decided we don't like them very much. So India has to decide if it can approach us like a friend or master.

I do not have any bad feeling towards any FOREIGN countries but if I have to judge, I have to go by what we see.


2. In the domain of foreign policy, there is no room for being naive. Expressing concern about the security of the country is a rational thing to do. For various reasons China is not a good neighbor of India. China, already a super power both militarily and economically, needs to expand it's sphere of influence to the Bay of Bengal. Expressing concern must go hand in hand with diplomatic moves.


>>>>>>>> This conversation should be between Indians and Chinese.


3. Even a least powerful neighbor can be an irritant by joining hands with an enemy neighbor or by supporting insurgency. The infamous10 truck-loads of arms imported using Chittagong port is a good example. Weakening India internally causing insurgency can be beneficial to China and Pakistan. The Muslim majority Pakistan is not on good terms with Afghanistan and worked as an agent to push Afghanistan backward in history. Nepal can be on good terms with China and at the same time can become a pain for India. it is all regional politics. It also depends largely on what party is in power. Anti-India policy worked well before 1971 for the Pakistani rulers and the same was like opiate for the Bengalis for some time. It works well even today.


>>>>>>> India also supported "Shanti bahini" against Bangladesh. If it has good relations with Bangladesh, we have NO interest being anti-Indian. It is perverted Indian policies (Water sharing, border killing, uneven trade, land grab (Talpotti) etc) that turned most people of this country against India. It is the SAME nation which fought a war against Pakistan. India tried to become our master, so Bangabandhu kicked those SOB out of our land (WIth American help).


4. Theoretically it sounds good to have perfectly porous borders allowing free movements without visa and passport. It would be a boon for those countries whose people need to migrate to other countries in search of various opportunities. But the reality teaches otherwise. The USA spends huge amount of money to stop illegal immigration. Barbed wire fence is a big politics both in India and Bangladesh. Indian contractors are making huge money. It may however ultimately pay off in terms of the need for deploying fewer BSF jawans in border areas.

>>>>>>> Free movement cannot happen overnight but both nations should work as a team to improve relations. Sadly Indians (Leaders) spend more time putting road blocks for this impoverish nation than lending a friendly hand. This is the POLICY of India (I am not commenting on common people of India). India treats ALL of her neighboring nations like a colonial master.

It cost much less to improve relationship than spending billions on guarding border with a no-threat country like Bangladesh.


5. Leaders know what to ask for and hence what to negotiate for. The equation is not very simple. Was it not rabid anti-Indian politician Kazi Zafar Ahmed (or Rtd. Colonel Akbar Hossain!) who during his tenure as a minister wanted to sell gas to India? It has been reported that Ziaur Rahman was ready to approve the Indian plan for Tipaimukh hydroelectric project. Record shows that AL secured highest amount of cu-sec water from the Ganges. Slogan-wise BNP seems to be the most patriotic ruler in the history of Bangladesh. This claim cannot be substantiated. But it is true that because of the presence of the so called pro-Chinese and pro-Pakistani elements (both the groups are anti-Indians and acted on their behalf against our independence) within the party, BNP is by heart and head anti-Indian but by hand will not hesitate to nakedly serve Indian interests at the cost of the national interest.


>>>>>>>> Problem with you is you cannot go beyond your love for BAL party. I am NOT talking about our political parties. To me there are NO fundamental difference between BNP and BAL. We need to be realists not fanatic. I do not support fanatical anti-Indian leaders. I feel BOTH countries will benefit if we have a functional, dignified and trusting relationship. I generally talk less about politics (Because we are not mature enough to talk rationally about it) so even if I ever Criticize BAL policies, please do not take that as an endorsement for other political parties.


6. To the rabid anti-Indians, India will never be popular. That is the slogan (overt or covert) devoid of even slightest patriotism and Bengali spirits on which their politics always thrives.     

>>>>>>>>>> If you keep defending perverted Indian policies, your idea will not be popular either. Do not blame Bangladeshi people for it. We do not like people who put other nations interest over our own. Over and over our common people proved that point.

We have much more in common with India (history, culture, taste etc) than any other nations. Still India is not very popular and simply blaming our people will never get anyone to the true answer.

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:26 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [notun_bangladesh] Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy submarines from China

 
1. China's track record is not good. China is not on good terms with Taiwan. Dalailama is not happy with what China is doing to Tibet. Muslims in Uyghur are not happy with the Chinese administration. China occupies about 10,000 square miles of Indian territory and also a part of J&K (alleged to be a gift by Pakistan). China was against our war of independence. More informed people will come up with more about China.

2. In the domain of foreign policy, there is no room for being naive. Expressing concern about the security of the country is a rational thing to do. For various reasons China is not a good neighbor of India. China, already a super power both militarily and economically, needs to expand it's sphere of influence to the Bay of Bengal. Expressing concern must go hand in hand with diplomatic moves.

3. Even a least powerful neighbor can be an irritant by joining hands with an enemy neighbor or by supporting insurgency. The infamous10 truck-loads of arms imported using Chittagong port is a good example. Weakening India internally causing insurgency can be beneficial to China and Pakistan. The Muslim majority Pakistan is not on good terms with Afghanistan and worked as an agent to push Afghanistan backward in history. Nepal can be on good terms with China and at the same time can become a pain for India. it is all regional politics. It also depends largely on what party is in power. Anti-India policy worked well before


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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [notun_bangladesh] Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy submarines from China



I want hear comments from Mr. Sankar Ray and Mr. Soumitra Bose in this regard. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 9, 2013, at 7:48 AM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I also disagree with Professor Chakrabarty, and agree with Professor Das, on the point that the latter responded to.
 
Let me go a bit further. As a matter of principle, I do not have much respect for any country's sovereignty when that country commits serious violations of human and citizenship rights of some of its people. In that regard, Bangladesh has done serious offences against the Jumma people. Those offences are no less serious than what the Pakistani ruling class did to the people of East Bengal form 1947 to March 24, 1971. On occasions, the offences of the Bangladesh military and of the Bangalee settlers against the Jumma people were as serious as some of the most serious offences by the Pakistani military and their local collaborators against the Bangalee people from March 25 to December 16 of 1971.
 
SuBain
 
==============================
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [notun_bangladesh] Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy submarines from China
 
"No doubt India actively supported Shantibahini. Obviously that was not right."- SC
Lopsided info can lead to uncharted area.  The tribal insurgency was a consequence of withdrawing their right as a protected people.  Their land (community property) was grabbed and redistributed to mostly Muslim non-tribal.  Not even Pakistan did what Bangladesh did to them!  If supporting the  "Shanti" was wrong, so was supporting the liberation movement of Bangladesh.
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
1. Can you prove that India wants to be your master, not friend? Is your statement not too strong? 
 
2. If China wants to use Bangladesh as a tool to expand it's sphere of influence in the Bay of Bengal, is it not natural for India to express concern and talk with Bangladesh? 
3. Talpotti, sharing water, border killings, etc. need to be resolved, no doubt. I believe these can be solved through friendly talks. Sharing water is more complicated as it involves two governments---central and provincial---in India. Any way, it is the responsibility of the Indian government with which only Bangladesh can talk. 
4. No doubt India actively supported Shantibahini. Obviously that was not right. But don't pretend to be naive. Security-wise, India probably is more vulnerable when BNP is in power as we have read reports on ISI connection in destabilizing regional peace in India. 
 
5. Can you be specific? Who were those SOBs? 
 
6. Why is India putting fence and observation towers in the borders? What is your guess? It is obviously humiliating for Bangladesh. But is it really hampering the national interests of Bangladesh in any way? Mexico would love to see no Americans patrolling the border although all the costs are being borne by America. 
7. Politics is a vital part of our every day life. Why do you hesitate to talk about it and the political parties and the politicians? I was never a member of Chhatra League or AL. But I have never kept it secret that of all the major parties (AL, BNP, JP, and Jamaat), my best preference would be AL. They are absolutely not the same animals. My assertion is based on my own ideology. I am for going back to 1972 constitution and make it better. I am happy that war criminals have been brought to justice. I can expect these to a great extent only from AL. 
 
8. I always respect common people. I hope you have noticed it. I was talking about rabid anti-Indians. 

Sent from my iPhone
 



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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [notun_bangladesh] Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy submarines from China



Chittagong Hill Tract (CHT) issue is not the same as that of the North-eastern Indian provinces, the so called Seven Sisters, where China has managed to start a cessation movement.
 
Indian response to CHT issue is very much similar to that of the liberation of Bangladesh. Bangladesh government has initiated a pogrom against the tribal indigenous population in the region, which is forcing the people out of their ancestral lands. They are being forced to enter into India illegally. As a result, it's not an internal issue of Bangladesh anymore. That's exactly the case during the liberation of Bangladesh, when ~ 10 million people entered India. Therefore, Indian involvement in CHT is justified. In this case, India is helping indigenous tribal people to regain their lost lands.  It is a just cause.
 
On the other hand, issue in the North-eastern provinces of India is a cessation movement, fueled mainly by China. If Indian response there leads to genocide, as occurred during Pakistani response to the cessation movement in the East Pakistan, that should be confronted by the international community. I haven't heard anything like that yet. Also, I do not know of any mass refugee crossing over the border to the bordering countries. When that happens, these countries would have the right to meddle in the affairs in the North eastern belt of India.  Until then, it's India's internal affair.
 
Therefore, nothing I can see that justifies criticism of Indian responses in CHT or Northeastern provinces of India.

Jiten Roy



On Monday, December 9, 2013 7:19 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I know. But there are complaints that the Indian central government is not doing proper justice to many provinces in the north east. Late Humayun Ahmed once pointed to this allegation to blame India. If we justify Indian intervention in CHT uprising, we have to justify Bangladesh's intervention in the uprisings in north eastern India. From this perspective I made my comment. 

States can also act as terrorists. But one meaning of friendship between two countries is: let me terrorize my people and I will let you terrorize your own people. Our prime objective is national integrity at the cost of autonomy or freedom of the rebels. 

Ideally that should not be done. Sometimes tripartite negotiations may be necessary to resolve the issues. 

Any way there is no reason to believe that India physically supported the rebellion in the CHT out of love for the indigenous people in that area or she thought that it was her moral duty to support the oppressed people. It was, I believe, a political game. 

My two cents. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 8, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

 
"No doubt India actively supported Shantibahini. Obviously that was not right."- SC

Lopsided info can lead to uncharted area.  The tribal insurgency was a consequence of withdrawing their right as a protected people.  Their land (community property) was grabbed and redistributed to mostly Muslim non-tribal.  Not even Pakistan did what Bangladesh did to them!  If supporting the  "Shanti" was wrong, so was supporting the liberation movement of Bangladesh.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
1. Can you prove that India wants to be your master, not friend? Is your statement not too strong? 

2. If China wants to use Bangladesh as a tool to expand it's sphere of influence in the Bay of Bengal, is it not natural for India to express concern and talk with Bangladesh? 

3. Talpotti, sharing water, border killings, etc. need to be resolved, no doubt. I believe these can be solved through friendly talks. Sharing water is more complicated as it involves two governments---central and provincial---in India. Any way, it is the responsibility of the Indian government with which only Bangladesh can talk. 

4. No doubt India actively supported Shantibahini. Obviously that was not right. But don't pretend to be naive. Security-wise, India probably is more vulnerable when BNP is in power as we have read reports on ISI connection in destabilizing regional peace in India. 

5. Can you be specific? Who were those SOBs? 

6. Why is India putting fence and observation towers in the borders? What is your guess? It is obviously humiliating for Bangladesh. But is it really hampering the national interests of Bangladesh in any way? Mexico would love to see no Americans patrolling the border although all the costs are being borne by America. 

7. Politics is a vital part of our every day life. Why do you hesitate to talk about it and the political parties and the politicians? I was never a member of Chhatra League or AL. But I have never kept it secret that of all the major parties (AL, BNP, JP, and Jamaat), my best preference would be AL. They are absolutely not the same animals. My assertion is based on my own ideology. I am for going back to 1972 constitution and make it better. I am happy that war criminals have been brought to justice. I can expect these to a great extent only from AL. 

8. I always respect common people. I hope you have noticed it. I was talking about rabid anti-Indians. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 8, 2013, at 6:50 AM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
1. China's track record is not good. China is not on good terms with Taiwan. Dalailama is not happy with what China is doing to Tibet. Muslims in Uyghur are not happy with the Chinese administration. China occupies about 10,000 square miles of Indian territory and also a part of J&K (alleged to be a gift by Pakistan). China was against our war of independence. More informed people will come up with more about China.

>>>>>>>>>> This will be a very long post if I have go around other sides of China or India. So decided stay close to our neighborhood. China has been much better to Bangladesh than India. As a Bangladeshi this should be OUR starting point.

India should have been our best friend but it wants to be our master. We had British masters, Pakistani masters and we decided we don't like them very much. So India has to decide if it can approach us like a friend or master.

I do not have any bad feeling towards any FOREIGN countries but if I have to judge, I have to go by what we see.


2. In the domain of foreign policy, there is no room for being naive. Expressing concern about the security of the country is a rational thing to do. For various reasons China is not a good neighbor of India. China, already a super power both militarily and economically, needs to expand it's sphere of influence to the Bay of Bengal. Expressing concern must go hand in hand with diplomatic moves.


>>>>>>>> This conversation should be between Indians and Chinese.


3. Even a least powerful neighbor can be an irritant by joining hands with an enemy neighbor or by supporting insurgency. The infamous10 truck-loads of arms imported using Chittagong port is a good example. Weakening India internally causing insurgency can be beneficial to China and Pakistan. The Muslim majority Pakistan is not on good terms with Afghanistan and worked as an agent to push Afghanistan backward in history. Nepal can be on good terms with China and at the same time can become a pain for India. it is all regional politics. It also depends largely on what party is in power. Anti-India policy worked well before 1971 for the Pakistani rulers and the same was like opiate for the Bengalis for some time. It works well even today.


>>>>>>> India also supported "Shanti bahini" against Bangladesh. If it has good relations with Bangladesh, we have NO interest being anti-Indian. It is perverted Indian policies (Water sharing, border killing, uneven trade, land grab (Talpotti) etc) that turned most people of this country against India. It is the SAME nation which fought a war against Pakistan. India tried to become our master, so Bangabandhu kicked those SOB out of our land (WIth American help).


4. Theoretically it sounds good to have perfectly porous borders allowing free movements without visa and passport. It would be a boon for those countries whose people need to migrate to other countries in search of various opportunities. But the reality teaches otherwise. The USA spends huge amount of money to stop illegal immigration. Barbed wire fence is a big politics both in India and Bangladesh. Indian contractors are making huge money. It may however ultimately pay off in terms of the need for deploying fewer BSF jawans in border areas.

>>>>>>> Free movement cannot happen overnight but both nations should work as a team to improve relations. Sadly Indians (Leaders) spend more time putting road blocks for this impoverish nation than lending a friendly hand. This is the POLICY of India (I am not commenting on common people of India). India treats ALL of her neighboring nations like a colonial master.

It cost much less to improve relationship than spending billions on guarding border with a no-threat country like Bangladesh.


5. Leaders know what to ask for and hence what to negotiate for. The equation is not very simple. Was it not rabid anti-Indian politician Kazi Zafar Ahmed (or Rtd. Colonel Akbar Hossain!) who during his tenure as a minister wanted to sell gas to India? It has been reported that Ziaur Rahman was ready to approve the Indian plan for Tipaimukh hydroelectric project. Record shows that AL secured highest amount of cu-sec water from the Ganges. Slogan-wise BNP seems to be the most patriotic ruler in the history of Bangladesh. This claim cannot be substantiated. But it is true that because of the presence of the so called pro-Chinese and pro-Pakistani elements (both the groups are anti-Indians and acted on their behalf against our independence) within the party, BNP is by heart and head anti-Indian but by hand will not hesitate to nakedly serve Indian interests at the cost of the national interest.


>>>>>>>> Problem with you is you cannot go beyond your love for BAL party. I am NOT talking about our political parties. To me there are NO fundamental difference between BNP and BAL. We need to be realists not fanatic. I do not support fanatical anti-Indian leaders. I feel BOTH countries will benefit if we have a functional, dignified and trusting relationship. I generally talk less about politics (Because we are not mature enough to talk rationally about it) so even if I ever Criticize BAL policies, please do not take that as an endorsement for other political parties.


6. To the rabid anti-Indians, India will never be popular. That is the slogan (overt or covert) devoid of even slightest patriotism and Bengali spirits on which their politics always thrives.     

>>>>>>>>>> If you keep defending perverted Indian policies, your idea will not be popular either. Do not blame Bangladeshi people for it. We do not like people who put other nations interest over our own. Over and over our common people proved that point.

We have much more in common with India (history, culture, taste etc) than any other nations. Still India is not very popular and simply blaming our people will never get anyone to the true answer.

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:26 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [notun_bangladesh] Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy submarines from China

 
1. China's track record is not good. China is not on good terms with Taiwan. Dalailama is not happy with what China is doing to Tibet. Muslims in Uyghur are not happy with the Chinese administration. China occupies about 10,000 square miles of Indian territory and also a part of J&K (alleged to be a gift by Pakistan). China was against our war of independence. More informed people will come up with more about China.

2. In the domain of foreign policy, there is no room for being naive. Expressing concern about the security of the country is a rational thing to do. For various reasons China is not a good neighbor of India. China, already a super power both militarily and economically, needs to expand it's sphere of influence to the Bay of Bengal. Expressing concern must go hand in hand with diplomatic moves.

3. Even a least powerful neighbor can be an irritant by joining hands with an enemy neighbor or by supporting insurgency. The infamous10 truck-loads of arms imported using Chittagong port is a good example. Weakening India internally causing insurgency can be beneficial to China and Pakistan. The Muslim majority Pakistan is not on good terms with Afghanistan and worked as an agent to push Afghanistan backward in history. Nepal can be on good terms with China and at the same time can become a pain for India. it is all regional politics. It also depends largely on what party is in power. Anti-India policy worked well before 1971 for the Pakistani rulers and the same was like opiate for the Bengalis for some time. It works well even today.

4. Theoretically it sounds good to have perfectly porous borders allowing free movements without visa and passport. It would be a boon for those countries whose people need to migrate to other countries in search of various opportunities. But the reality teaches otherwise. The USA spends huge amount of money to stop illegal immigration. Barbed wire fence is a big politics both in India and Bangladesh. Indian contractors are making huge money. It may however ultimately pay off in terms of the need for deploying fewer BSF jawans in border areas. 

5. Leaders know what to ask for and hence what to negotiate for. The equation is not very simple. Was it not rabid anti-Indian politician Kazi Zafar Ahmed (or Rtd. Colonel Akbar Hossain!) who during his tenure as a minister wanted to sell gas to India? It has been reported that Ziaur Rahman was ready to approve the Indian plan for Tipaimukh hydroelectric project. Record shows that AL secured highest amount of cu-sec water from the Ganges. Slogan-wise BNP seems to be the most patriotic ruler in the history of Bangladesh. This claim cannot be substantiated. But it is true that because of the presence of the so called pro-Chinese and pro-Pakistani elements (both the groups are anti-Indians and acted on their behalf against our independence) within the party, BNP is by heart and head anti-Indian but by hand will not hesitate to nakedly serve Indian interests at the cost of the national interest.  

6. To the rabid anti-Indians, India will never be popular. That is the slogan (overt or covert) devoid of even slightest patriotism and Bengali spirits on which their politics always thrives.              =




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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

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****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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