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Wednesday, May 8, 2013

Re: [mukto-mona] Link between Racism (samprodayikota) and Stupidity



Hi,

I have some reservations regarding the definition of intelligence and tools used by the researchers in this study. These studies are designed to find "co-variance" and we need not to take them as "co-relation".

Further the tools used for measuring intelligence is highly controversial for several reasons. One safe conclusion would be, these tools at the best can find limited evidences on a particular aspect of intelligence. Intelligence is highly context specific. There are studies on these aspects (Barbara Rogoff and others).

Another point is, our behaviour and attitude is guided by our belief structure rather than our knowledge or intelligence. Now knowledge is part of belief or belief is part of knowledge, that is something we can discuss. Our belief structure is very complex, personal and difficult to change unless they are challenged. Challenge means creating a cognitive conflict (Piagetian view).

For example, yesterday I was watching an Interview of Amitabh Bachchan. He made a point that women's first priority is taking care of her home. Once she completes her domestic work she can do anything she wants to do. She should not be domesticated by the male. She has been created to do household work, take care of children and other family members and it is her pride to do so. And no one should take away her rights.

People can find rational arguments as well as irrational arguments in this piece of conversation. Is it reflecting intelligence alone? No, I think it is something more than intelligence, it obscures your "rationality". The reason would be, every rational argument is based on some basic premises and you can not challenge those premises (mostly, those are not based on empirical evidences). And these premises are mostly personal construct and not necessarily unique. Sometimes challenging those premises in isolation would result more despair than any desired change.

And these desired changes must come from shared goals and vision.  It is a process of social deliberations. Entire education system need to be structured to attain this shared goal. Obviously no goal should be fixed as absolute but required to evaluate and let them evolve with time. Probably, strong political will is required to bring any change.

Finally, it is a complex task and we need to re-define "rationality" and poses cognitive challenges to each other. It would be an interesting task to challenge each other !!!!!!!!!!!

Thanking you.

With best regards,

Saurav 



On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 5:54 AM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:


Pretty common sense finding. I generally use a phrase "religious stupidity and hatred" in the Bangladeshi context. We can certainly extrapolate that to "all kinds of hatred by ordinary people are due to stupidity." Note that I said "ordinary people." People who exploit the stupidity and hatred in ordinary people are generally not stupid. They are corrupt and do gain personally by exploiting the stupidity of ordinary people.
 
From a Bangladeshi context, when I see too much of religious stupidity in a Ph.D. degree holder, it bothers me too much. Because, that example generally propagates hatred (due to stupidity) among many other ordinary people. And the vicious cycle of hatred, exploitation of hatred, and sufferings for innocent humanity continues.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
============================  






--
Saurav Shome
Research Scholar
Homi Bhabha Centre for Science Education
Tata Institute of Fundamental Research
V. N. Purav Marg
Mankhurd, Mumbai, India, 400 088
shomesaurav@gmail.com, saurav@hbcse.tifr.res.in
www.sauravpeace.wordpress.com
www.continuinglearning2teach.wordpress.com
www.pblteachers.wordpress.com
Phone: (O) 022 - 25072220 (M) + 91 - 9969872306

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Call For Articles:

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Jinnah, the secular democrat?



Jinnah left Congress long before Patel came into it or became a national figure.  He left in 1925 due to what he considered excesses of Gandhi.


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 7:14 PM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 

but the reality is that his actions have caused/helped prolonging religious hatred in the subcontinent.


>>>>>>>>>>> Actually Jinnah was a member of congress once upon a time. He "REACTED" to fanaticism shown by Hindu leaders like Sarder Patel and others. He was a stubborn man for sure. But It would be wrong to attribute all miseries
of common Muslims and Hindu on him. Leaders of both communities acted to secure their own interests. Where common people ended up suffering.

The Bangladeshi political scene is somewhat similar today. Common people are giving life for caused unclear to them, so leaders can play better "Political chess".

However I have to give more credit to Gandhi for at least trying his level best to keep people from attacking each other. His sympathies towards Muslims and lower caste Hindus were not taken well by fanatic Hindus and so they killed this great man.

Telling history with communal bias will not make things better today. As people with some education it is OUR duty to be honest with our future generations, so at least they can get along better.


Shalom!
 



-----Original Message-----
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 8, 2013 12:08 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Jinnah, the secular democrat?

 
If "secularism", is defined as "irreligiosity", Jinnah was definitely more secular than Gandhi. However, if "secularism" is defined as the state policy of treating people equally irrespective of their religious beliefs, Gandhi was secular, and Jinnah was not. As I also said in the post below, "He (Jinnah) was not a serious believer in Islam; he was fanatic about his Muslim clan." Of course, one might say that his Muslim-clannish fanaticism was only for him to be a supreme leader, as opposed to for loving the Muslims.


Well, too pitiable that in his sick bed 'he confessed that his worst mistake in life was to achieve Pakistan'; but the reality is that his actions have caused/helped prolonging religious hatred in the subcontinent. Under no circumstance he deserved any kind of respect from honest and wise intellectuals of the subcontinent. A flat statement of 'Sure, he was more secular than Gandhi' surely sounds like giving Jinnah too much respect, doesn't it?

As Dr. Das has also noted, Jinnah's politics had no grassroots. In other words, Jinnah was no angel for democracy.
 
Sukhamaya Bain

==============================================
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2013 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Jinnah, the secular democrat?

 
"If he was not a Muslim fanatic bigot,...".  Jinnah relished pork sandwich and never even bowed towards Mecca.  He was a British agent as observed Wali Khan.  When Mr. Khan went for treatment in England, he had the opportunity to study the declassified British information about Jinnah and his role in the partition of Pakistan.  About five years before he was made the President of All India Muslim League, he actively retired from Indian Politics, and left India for England to practice law there.  Then he was hand picked by the Winston Churchill to pursue his heinous politics.  Sure, he was more secular than Gandhi.  His politics had no grassroots.  In sickbed during his last days, he confessed that his worst mistake in life was to achieve Pakistan.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
May be Dr. Jiten Roy should read the following article by Faiz Ahmed Faiz:
 
 
He should also read the book, India Wins Freedom, by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad.
 
Jinnah insisted that Congress was a Hindu party, even when Maulana Azad was the President of that party. He also insisted that Muslim League was the legitimate representative of all the Muslims of India, even when that party did not have parliamentary majority in three principal Muslim-majority provinces, Punjab, N.W.F. and Bengal. If he was not a Muslim fanatic bigot, who was? I would insist that his talk of a secular Pakistan in 1948 was probably due to his over-consumption of alcohol on that day. He was not a serious believer in Islam; he was fanatic about his Muslim clan.
 
I am surprised by Dr. Roy's question, "What could have been the national language of Pakistan, other than Urdu?" Why could you not think of Bangla as a more appropriate choice?
 
Obviously, Urdu was the language of the Muslim aristocrats. Bangla was the language of an overwhelming majority population of Pakistan. In terms of usage in artistic and scientific literature, Bangla was better than Urdu. I would be happy to be corrected if you can provide comparative works in the two languages, both in science and in arts. My limited knowledge tells me that people like Rabindra Nath Tagore in literature and Jagadish Chandra Basu in science were not to be found in Urdu in 1948, when Jinnah wanted Urdu, the language of only 8% of the population of Pakistan, to be the national language. Thus, respecting people (democracy) was not what Jinnah had in his head.
 
Sukhamaya Bain.
 
=====================================
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Ten
 
I tend to agree with Sukhamaya about Jinnah though                    
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:58:58 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru 
Sorry, another mistake in the last line - it's 'state affairs', not 'national affairs'
--- On Sun, 5/5/13, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013, 6:53 PM

 
 I disagree. Jinnah was much more secular than any other Islamist autocrats came after him. They all hated him for that. He deserves much more credit than was given to him; his ideals would have made Pakistan a much better country than it is today.  What could have been the national language of Pakistan, other than Urdu? Hindi is the national language of India, but – each state has own language for national affairs. I don't see your point.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Sun, 5/5/13, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, May 5, 2013, 6:18 PM

 
Jinnah's only ideology was probably to make himself the supreme leader of Pakistan. Please stop giving him undue credits. His secular credential has been way overblown. If he wanted a secular Pakistan, he could not have worked with religious hate-mongers to accomplish that. He was not a democrat, he was an aristocrat. If he had much respect for democracy, he could not have insisted on Urdu to be the national language of Pakistan.

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Shame on us that today pakistan is being sourced out, because we are unable to run the country.....ishrat Tender for running Pakistan Vaqar Ahmed Tender No. GOP 2013/193CTR/PTL/TEN/420 Tender Notice for Ru
 
Jinnah had an ideology for Pakistan, but - the wise guys of Pakistan had a better idea, and - that is to make it an Islamic country. The rest is history.

Jiten Roy
 






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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...)



Though the real number of Muktijoddhas never exceeded forty thousand, 1.2 million certificates were sold duly signed by Osmani.  In the long run, it is the attitude that counts and not who signed what.  Most people, I believe, would agree that any body adoring the Hefajoti Amir Allama Shafi and S. A. Hannan as father like and Guru respectively does not have the attitude of a liberation fighter.


On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Thank you for being so prompt in your response. That's what I thought also. I just wanted to make sure.

 

You are right about the authenticity of these certificates. It reminds me of a story. That was in 1972, just after independence. I came back from Jolongi, Murshidabad, where we were refugee. That day, I was walking in the Nator town; suddenly, someone called me from behind – Jiten da, Jiten da,…. I looked back and saw a young man calling me. I stopped; he was the younger brother of my classmate from High School. I have been to their house many times with his brother. His father used to love me. I asked him - how he was during the war. He showed me a nametag card, hanging from his neck. I looked at it; it's a card for the Muktijoddhya, signed by the Ministry of Home Affairs of the very first Government of the Peoples' Republic of Bangladesh. He told me that - he just received his certificate recently. I thanked him for his sacrifices for the country. Unfortunately, others told me later on that he was one of the Razakars from that area.

 

Anyway, you are right, certificate is not the litmus test for the Muktijoddhya. Unfortunately, many genuine Muktijoddhyas starved to death, when the gravest Razakars became President, Ministers, Political and Religious Leaders, etc. I don't need to see or know about the authenticity of your credentials at all; your love for the country is good enough for me to know you.

 

Thanks again for your sacrifices for the country, we all love so much.

 

Jiten Roy



--- On Wed, 5/8/13, Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...)
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2013, 9:31 PM


 

Dr. Roy,

Nomosker.

I am not sure if you heard or remember that the initial Freedom Fighter Certificates issued by Sk. Mujib somehow became available to Non-Freedom Fighters also. The additional certificate (# 06140) signed jointly by PM Sk. Hasina (and Principal Abdul Ahad Chowdhury, the Chairman of Central Command Council of Bangladesh Muktijodha Sandsad) was issued in 1999 after a rigorous scrutiny.

I hope that the document I produced from the current Bangladesh Gazette should make everybody happy. I believe that the Mutibarta Number (also called the "Red Book Number") came from the Hardcover Register that I filled as the Wing Leader of my wing (of 180 freedom fighters divided in 6 platoons) at Tura Hill (Meghalaya State, India) with the Indian Army.
 
With best regards,
Muktijodha Em
arat Hossain Pannah
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Em Pannah
Doctor of Management (Cybersecurity, Privacy, and Identity Theft), MS, MSc., CISSP, CAP, CISM, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM, Foundations of Cybersecurity
Cybersecurity Professional, Textbook Writer/Publisher, and Adjunct Assistant Professor in USA
Primary email: epannah@yahoo.com | Secondary email: em.pannah@faculty.umuc.edu
Primary phone: (443) 690-3955 | Secondary phone: (301) 358-9232
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2013 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...)

 
E. Pannah: "Prime Minister Sk. Hasina signed my Freedom Fighter Certificate back on January 12, 1999."

Now, you are making me confused. May I ask you a question – why did you receive a signed certificate from the Prime Minister, Hashina, in 1999, when certificates were distributed in 1972 - 1973, right after the independence? Why didn't you get it from Bongabondhu? 

Jiten Roy


--- On Wed, 5/8/13, Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com>
Subject: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...) [1 Attachment]
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2013, 1:41 AM

 
Dear Readers,

1. I don't know why this extremist blogger has continued attacking me when I have retired from his unfriendly blog site.
2. However, here is my "Muktijodha Record" from Bangladesh Government's Official Site (FF# 0305040130 / Muktibarta# 0113020084 / Gazette# 1760).
3. Prime Minister Sk. Hasina signed my Freedom Fighter Certificate back on January 12, 1999. Does this extremist blogger need anything more to satisfy his ill motives?
4. I remember that even U.S. President Barack Obama had to produce his Birth Certificate before his second election because of some consorted verbal attacks by his failed opposition.
 
With best regards,
Muktijodha Em
arat Hossain Pannah
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Em Pannah
Doctor of Management (Cybersecurity, Privacy, and Identity Theft), MS, MSc., CISSP, CAP, CISM, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM, Foundations of Cybersecurity
Cybersecurity Professional, Textbook Writer/Publisher, and Adjunct Assistant Professor in USA
Primary email: epannah@yahoo.com | Secondary email: em.pannah@faculty.umuc.edu
Primary phone: (443) 690-3955 | Secondary phone: (301) 358-9232
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2013 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] One Pakistan by Nehru, Two Pakistans by Indira

 
"I admire your coolness in your deliberations; I am trying to learn from you."- Dr. Roy, his lack of coolness has gone unnoticed by you though imbecility has not.  He even believes thyat Emarat Hossain Pannah is a former Muktijoddha.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
QR, your views will say everything about you. The problem is - your views are complex, which often contradicts everything you say. For example, you said: "I cannot defend Taleban or Hefazot or any other activists. As I am not connected to them. Therefore, it is hard to speak on their behalf."
 
What the heck this statement is supposed to mean. Nobody is asking you to speak for Hefazote or Taliban; you speak for yourself, and when you cannot do that - it says something. We can read between the lines.
 
As I said before, I agree with you – about personal verbal attacks. All of us should try to avoid it. I admire your coolness in your deliberations; I am trying to learn from you.
 

Also, as I said before, most people, contributing regularly to this forum, are either irreligious or indifferent of their parental religions. Not many Muslims can do that openly, even though there are thousands of them in this forum. That's probably the reason why we don't hear from them quite often. It is hard to be a freethinker when you are faithfully married to a religion. Then, there are others who come to this forum with intent to push politics and/or religion. So, we get to know a mixed bag of people here. I, really, do not think you will find too many communal people here. Criticism of a religion is not a communal act unless it is intended to inflict harm on a community or people. No religion is perfect. In fact, most of them are faulty. If you avoid criticism of other religions only to avoid criticism of your own, that act won't be a freethinker's act. 

You are welcome to opine on anything in this forum. 
 
Jiten Roy
 
--- On
Tue, 5/7/13, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] One Pakistan by Nehru, Two Pakistans by Indira
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 6:32 AM


 
Just look at what Hefazoti Islamists have done in Bangladesh. Even Quran and Hadith were not spared from these peaceful religious activists. They have surely 'changed' the peaceful outlook of Islam that you preach all day, isn't it? Still, you have trouble to denounce them.

>>>>>>>>>>> You can go back one year and look at every post I wrote. You will NOT find me "Endorsing" violent people. I can say this with certainty because I do not endorse violence. It is true last month Hefazat workers were very peaceful. Some members were pressing me to make a comment. Since I did not know much about them, I did not endorse them.

Sadly, this lead to those "Highly educated" members to ASSume that, I am supporting them.

I said it before and I'll repeat it again. I can explain about Islam to best of my ability (Since most members lack knowledge about it). I cannot defend Taleban or Hefazot or any other activists. As I am not connected to them. Therefore, it is hard to speak on their behalf.

Another member ( I think it was Bain) "ordered" me to clean up Bangladesh from Islamists type of people. not touching the filthy personal attacks.

Are these RATIONAL comments?

It has been a repeated theme here in Mukto-mona. Some atheists and non-Muslim members feel free to verbally abuse people (Personally) and attack Islam but expects ALL Muslims to respond to them "Perfectly". A very unrealistic and childish attitude.

I have denounced the violent book burning. Maybe you have not read it. But that does not stop these "Gentlemen" from acting irrationally. It is just a "Bangladeshi" Muslim after all.

I have seen many Muslims leaving this very forum who were quite fair in their approach. Last one was a freedom fighter!!


I thought I made it abundantly clear that, I do not support violent extremists of any religion (Including mine). You gotta read my posts a little more carefully to keep up with it my man!!


Take it easy.


Shalom!




-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 7, 2013 6:44 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] One Pakistan by Nehru, Two Pakistans by Indira

 









__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
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Re: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...)



Though the real number of Muktijoddhas never exceeded forty thousand, 1.2 million certificates were sold duly signed by Osmani.  In the long run, it is the attitude that counts and not who signed what.  Most people, I believe would agree that any body adoring the Hefajoti Amir Allama Shafi and S. A. Hannan as father like and Guru respectively does not have the attitude of a liberation fighter.


On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Thank you for being so prompt in your response. That's what I thought also. I just wanted to make sure.

 

You are right about the authenticity of these certificates. It reminds me of a story. That was in 1972, just after independence. I came back from Jolongi, Murshidabad, where we were refugee. That day, I was walking in the Nator town; suddenly, someone called me from behind – Jiten da, Jiten da,…. I looked back and saw a young man calling me. I stopped; he was the younger brother of my classmate from High School. I have been to their house many times with his brother. His father used to love me. I asked him - how he was during the war. He showed me a nametag card, hanging from his neck. I looked at it; it's a card for the Muktijoddhya, signed by the Ministry of Home Affairs of the very first Government of the Peoples' Republic of Bangladesh. He told me that - he just received his certificate recently. I thanked him for his sacrifices for the country. Unfortunately, others told me later on that he was one of the Razakars from that area.

 

Anyway, you are right, certificate is not the litmus test for the Muktijoddhya. Unfortunately, many genuine Muktijoddhyas starved to death, when the gravest Razakars became President, Ministers, Political and Religious Leaders, etc. I don't need to see or know about the authenticity of your credentials at all; your love for the country is good enough for me to know you.

 

Thanks again for your sacrifices for the country, we all love so much.

 

Jiten Roy



--- On Wed, 5/8/13, Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...)
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2013, 9:31 PM


 

Dr. Roy,

Nomosker.

I am not sure if you heard or remember that the initial Freedom Fighter Certificates issued by Sk. Mujib somehow became available to Non-Freedom Fighters also. The additional certificate (# 06140) signed jointly by PM Sk. Hasina (and Principal Abdul Ahad Chowdhury, the Chairman of Central Command Council of Bangladesh Muktijodha Sandsad) was issued in 1999 after a rigorous scrutiny.

I hope that the document I produced from the current Bangladesh Gazette should make everybody happy. I believe that the Mutibarta Number (also called the "Red Book Number") came from the Hardcover Register that I filled as the Wing Leader of my wing (of 180 freedom fighters divided in 6 platoons) at Tura Hill (Meghalaya State, India) with the Indian Army.
 
With best regards,
Muktijodha Em
arat Hossain Pannah
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Em Pannah
Doctor of Management (Cybersecurity, Privacy, and Identity Theft), MS, MSc., CISSP, CAP, CISM, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM, Foundations of Cybersecurity
Cybersecurity Professional, Textbook Writer/Publisher, and Adjunct Assistant Professor in USA
Primary email: epannah@yahoo.com | Secondary email: em.pannah@faculty.umuc.edu
Primary phone: (443) 690-3955 | Secondary phone: (301) 358-9232
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2013 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...)

 
E. Pannah: "Prime Minister Sk. Hasina signed my Freedom Fighter Certificate back on January 12, 1999."

Now, you are making me confused. May I ask you a question – why did you receive a signed certificate from the Prime Minister, Hashina, in 1999, when certificates were distributed in 1972 - 1973, right after the independence? Why didn't you get it from Bongabondhu? 

Jiten Roy


--- On Wed, 5/8/13, Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com>
Subject: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...) [1 Attachment]
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2013, 1:41 AM

 
Dear Readers,

1. I don't know why this extremist blogger has continued attacking me when I have retired from his unfriendly blog site.
2. However, here is my "Muktijodha Record" from Bangladesh Government's Official Site (FF# 0305040130 / Muktibarta# 0113020084 / Gazette# 1760).
3. Prime Minister Sk. Hasina signed my Freedom Fighter Certificate back on January 12, 1999. Does this extremist blogger need anything more to satisfy his ill motives?
4. I remember that even U.S. President Barack Obama had to produce his Birth Certificate before his second election because of some consorted verbal attacks by his failed opposition.
 
With best regards,
Muktijodha Em
arat Hossain Pannah
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Em Pannah
Doctor of Management (Cybersecurity, Privacy, and Identity Theft), MS, MSc., CISSP, CAP, CISM, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM, Foundations of Cybersecurity
Cybersecurity Professional, Textbook Writer/Publisher, and Adjunct Assistant Professor in USA
Primary email: epannah@yahoo.com | Secondary email: em.pannah@faculty.umuc.edu
Primary phone: (443) 690-3955 | Secondary phone: (301) 358-9232
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2013 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] One Pakistan by Nehru, Two Pakistans by Indira

 
"I admire your coolness in your deliberations; I am trying to learn from you."- Dr. Roy, his lack of coolness has gone unnoticed by you though imbecility has not.  He even believes thyat Emarat Hossain Pannah is a former Muktijoddha.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
QR, your views will say everything about you. The problem is - your views are complex, which often contradicts everything you say. For example, you said: "I cannot defend Taleban or Hefazot or any other activists. As I am not connected to them. Therefore, it is hard to speak on their behalf."
 
What the heck this statement is supposed to mean. Nobody is asking you to speak for Hefazote or Taliban; you speak for yourself, and when you cannot do that - it says something. We can read between the lines.
 
As I said before, I agree with you – about personal verbal attacks. All of us should try to avoid it. I admire your coolness in your deliberations; I am trying to learn from you.
 

Also, as I said before, most people, contributing regularly to this forum, are either irreligious or indifferent of their parental religions. Not many Muslims can do that openly, even though there are thousands of them in this forum. That's probably the reason why we don't hear from them quite often. It is hard to be a freethinker when you are faithfully married to a religion. Then, there are others who come to this forum with intent to push politics and/or religion. So, we get to know a mixed bag of people here. I, really, do not think you will find too many communal people here. Criticism of a religion is not a communal act unless it is intended to inflict harm on a community or people. No religion is perfect. In fact, most of them are faulty. If you avoid criticism of other religions only to avoid criticism of your own, that act won't be a freethinker's act. 

You are welcome to opine on anything in this forum. 
 
Jiten Roy
 
--- On
Tue, 5/7/13, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] One Pakistan by Nehru, Two Pakistans by Indira
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 6:32 AM


 
Just look at what Hefazoti Islamists have done in Bangladesh. Even Quran and Hadith were not spared from these peaceful religious activists. They have surely 'changed' the peaceful outlook of Islam that you preach all day, isn't it? Still, you have trouble to denounce them.

>>>>>>>>>>> You can go back one year and look at every post I wrote. You will NOT find me "Endorsing" violent people. I can say this with certainty because I do not endorse violence. It is true last month Hefazat workers were very peaceful. Some members were pressing me to make a comment. Since I did not know much about them, I did not endorse them.

Sadly, this lead to those "Highly educated" members to ASSume that, I am supporting them.

I said it before and I'll repeat it again. I can explain about Islam to best of my ability (Since most members lack knowledge about it). I cannot defend Taleban or Hefazot or any other activists. As I am not connected to them. Therefore, it is hard to speak on their behalf.

Another member ( I think it was Bain) "ordered" me to clean up Bangladesh from Islamists type of people. not touching the filthy personal attacks.

Are these RATIONAL comments?

It has been a repeated theme here in Mukto-mona. Some atheists and non-Muslim members feel free to verbally abuse people (Personally) and attack Islam but expects ALL Muslims to respond to them "Perfectly". A very unrealistic and childish attitude.

I have denounced the violent book burning. Maybe you have not read it. But that does not stop these "Gentlemen" from acting irrationally. It is just a "Bangladeshi" Muslim after all.

I have seen many Muslims leaving this very forum who were quite fair in their approach. Last one was a freedom fighter!!


I thought I made it abundantly clear that, I do not support violent extremists of any religion (Including mine). You gotta read my posts a little more carefully to keep up with it my man!!


Take it easy.


Shalom!




-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 7, 2013 6:44 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] One Pakistan by Nehru, Two Pakistans by Indira

 









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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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[mukto-mona] বেত মেরে, ফেলের ভয় দেখিয়ে মাদ্রাসা ছাত্রদের আনা হয় হেফাজতের তাণ্ডব



বেত মেরে, ফেলের ভয় দেখিয়ে মাদ্রাসা ছাত্রদের আনা হয়
হেফাজতের তাণ্ডব
আজাদ সুলায়মান ॥ কতই বা বয়স হবে ওদের? বড়জোর ১৪ থেকে ১৫। নির্দ্বিধায় বলা যায়- ওরা কিশোর। পূর্ণ যুবক হয়ে ওঠেনি। এ বয়সে তারা কেউ অষ্টম শ্রেণীর ছাত্র। কেউ নবম থেকে দশম শ্রেণীর।
কিন্তু তাতে কী? বয়স, জ্ঞান, বুদ্বি- কোন কিছুরই বিচার-বিশ্লেষণ করা হয়নি। আমলে নেয়া হয়নি ওদের আকুতি-মিনতি। মাদ্রাসার বড় হুজুরের নির্দেশ- যেতে হবে শাপলা চত্বরে। না গেলে উপায় নেই। দুনিয়া ও আখেরাতের শাস্তি ভোগ করতে হবে। আখেরাতের শাস্তি জাহান্নামের আগুনে পোড়ানো। সাপের কামড়ে কবরে আজাব হবে। পুলসিরাতের পুল পার হওয়া যাবে না। এমন ভয়ানক শাস্তির কথা শুনেও যাত্রাবাড়ীর একটি কওমি মাদ্রাসার কোমলমতি ছাত্ররা শাপলা চত্বরে যেতে রাজি হয়নি। তারপর শুরু হয় দুনিয়ার শাস্তি। অষ্টম শ্রেণীর ছাত্র মারুফ, আব্বাস, ফজলুল হক ও জাফরকে নেয়া হয় ক্লাসের বাইরে। কড়া রোদের মধ্যে চিৎ করে সূর্যের দিকে মুখ ফিরিয়ে শুইয়ে দেয়া হয়। এভাবে প্রায় এক ঘণ্টা রাখা হয়। ওরা যখন সহ্য করতে না পেরে চিৎকার করছিল তখন ক্লাসের অন্যদেরও ডেকে এনে শাস্তির নমুনা সস্পর্কে অভিজ্ঞতা নেয়ার জন্য বলা হয়। অন্যরা তাতে রাজি হয় শাপলা চত্বরে হেফাজতের সমাবেশে যেতে। এমন শাস্তির মুখেই সে মাদ্রাসা থেকে ৬ শতাধিক ছাত্র যোগ দিতে বাধ্য হয়। যাদের একজন মারুফ তার মায়ের কাছে মাদ্রাসার বড় হুজুরের কঠোর নির্দেশের কথা জানিয়েছে। ছেলের অভিযোগের সত্যতা জানতে মা মাদ্রাসায় যেতে রওনা হন। তাতে বাদ সাধে মারুফ। মারুফ মাকে বলে, এটা জানতে গেলে বিপদ আরও বাড়বে। সামনে পরীক্ষায় ফেল করিয়ে দেবে।


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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...)



Thank you for being so prompt in your response. That's what I thought also. I just wanted to make sure.

 

You are right about the authenticity of these certificates. It reminds me of a story. That was in 1972, just after independence. I came back from Jolongi, Murshidabad, where we were refugee. That day, I was walking in the Nator town; suddenly, someone called me from behind – Jiten da, Jiten da,…. I looked back and saw a young man calling me. I stopped; he was the younger brother of my classmate from High School. I have been to their house many times with his brother. His father used to love me. I asked him - how he was during the war. He showed me a nametag card, hanging from his neck. I looked at it; it's a card for the Muktijoddhya, signed by the Ministry of Home Affairs of the very first Government of the Peoples' Republic of Bangladesh. He told me that - he just received his certificate recently. I thanked him for his sacrifices for the country. Unfortunately, others told me later on that he was one of the Razakars from that area.

 

Anyway, you are right, certificate is not the litmus test for the Muktijoddhya. Unfortunately, many genuine Muktijoddhyas starved to death, when the gravest Razakars became President, Ministers, Political and Religious Leaders, etc. I don't need to see or know about the authenticity of your credentials at all; your love for the country is good enough for me to know you.

 

Thanks again for your sacrifices for the country, we all love so much.

 

Jiten Roy



--- On Wed, 5/8/13, Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...)
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2013, 9:31 PM

 

Dr. Roy,

Nomosker.

I am not sure if you heard or remember that the initial Freedom Fighter Certificates issued by Sk. Mujib somehow became available to Non-Freedom Fighters also. The additional certificate (# 06140) signed jointly by PM Sk. Hasina (and Principal Abdul Ahad Chowdhury, the Chairman of Central Command Council of Bangladesh Muktijodha Sandsad) was issued in 1999 after a rigorous scrutiny.

I hope that the document I produced from the current Bangladesh Gazette should make everybody happy. I believe that the Mutibarta Number (also called the "Red Book Number") came from the Hardcover Register that I filled as the Wing Leader of my wing (of 180 freedom fighters divided in 6 platoons) at Tura Hill (Meghalaya State, India) with the Indian Army.
 
With best regards,
Muktijodha Em
arat Hossain Pannah
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Em Pannah
Doctor of Management (Cybersecurity, Privacy, and Identity Theft), MS, MSc., CISSP, CAP, CISM, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM, Foundations of Cybersecurity
Cybersecurity Professional, Textbook Writer/Publisher, and Adjunct Assistant Professor in USA
Primary email: epannah@yahoo.com | Secondary email: em.pannah@faculty.umuc.edu
Primary phone: (443) 690-3955 | Secondary phone: (301) 358-9232
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2013 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...)

 
E. Pannah: "Prime Minister Sk. Hasina signed my Freedom Fighter Certificate back on January 12, 1999."

Now, you are making me confused. May I ask you a question – why did you receive a signed certificate from the Prime Minister, Hashina, in 1999, when certificates were distributed in 1972 - 1973, right after the independence? Why didn't you get it from Bongabondhu? 

Jiten Roy


--- On Wed, 5/8/13, Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Dr. Em Pannah <epannah@yahoo.com>
Subject: Please help me from this extremist blogger (Re: [mukto-mona] ...) [1 Attachment]
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2013, 1:41 AM

 
Dear Readers,

1. I don't know why this extremist blogger has continued attacking me when I have retired from his unfriendly blog site.
2. However, here is my "Muktijodha Record" from Bangladesh Government's Official Site (FF# 0305040130 / Muktibarta# 0113020084 / Gazette# 1760).
3. Prime Minister Sk. Hasina signed my Freedom Fighter Certificate back on January 12, 1999. Does this extremist blogger need anything more to satisfy his ill motives?
4. I remember that even U.S. President Barack Obama had to produce his Birth Certificate before his second election because of some consorted verbal attacks by his failed opposition.
 
With best regards,
Muktijodha Em
arat Hossain Pannah
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Em Pannah
Doctor of Management (Cybersecurity, Privacy, and Identity Theft), MS, MSc., CISSP, CAP, CISM, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM, Foundations of Cybersecurity
Cybersecurity Professional, Textbook Writer/Publisher, and Adjunct Assistant Professor in USA
Primary email: epannah@yahoo.com | Secondary email: em.pannah@faculty.umuc.edu
Primary phone: (443) 690-3955 | Secondary phone: (301) 358-9232
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2013 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] One Pakistan by Nehru, Two Pakistans by Indira

 
"I admire your coolness in your deliberations; I am trying to learn from you."- Dr. Roy, his lack of coolness has gone unnoticed by you though imbecility has not.  He even believes thyat Emarat Hossain Pannah is a former Muktijoddha.


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
QR, your views will say everything about you. The problem is - your views are complex, which often contradicts everything you say. For example, you said: "I cannot defend Taleban or Hefazot or any other activists. As I am not connected to them. Therefore, it is hard to speak on their behalf."
 
What the heck this statement is supposed to mean. Nobody is asking you to speak for Hefazote or Taliban; you speak for yourself, and when you cannot do that - it says something. We can read between the lines.
 
As I said before, I agree with you – about personal verbal attacks. All of us should try to avoid it. I admire your coolness in your deliberations; I am trying to learn from you.
 

Also, as I said before, most people, contributing regularly to this forum, are either irreligious or indifferent of their parental religions. Not many Muslims can do that openly, even though there are thousands of them in this forum. That's probably the reason why we don't hear from them quite often. It is hard to be a freethinker when you are faithfully married to a religion. Then, there are others who come to this forum with intent to push politics and/or religion. So, we get to know a mixed bag of people here. I, really, do not think you will find too many communal people here. Criticism of a religion is not a communal act unless it is intended to inflict harm on a community or people. No religion is perfect. In fact, most of them are faulty. If you avoid criticism of other religions only to avoid criticism of your own, that act won't be a freethinker's act. 

You are welcome to opine on anything in this forum. 
 
Jiten Roy
 
--- On
Tue, 5/7/13, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] One Pakistan by Nehru, Two Pakistans by Indira
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 6:32 AM


 
Just look at what Hefazoti Islamists have done in Bangladesh. Even Quran and Hadith were not spared from these peaceful religious activists. They have surely 'changed' the peaceful outlook of Islam that you preach all day, isn't it? Still, you have trouble to denounce them.

>>>>>>>>>>> You can go back one year and look at every post I wrote. You will NOT find me "Endorsing" violent people. I can say this with certainty because I do not endorse violence. It is true last month Hefazat workers were very peaceful. Some members were pressing me to make a comment. Since I did not know much about them, I did not endorse them.

Sadly, this lead to those "Highly educated" members to ASSume that, I am supporting them.

I said it before and I'll repeat it again. I can explain about Islam to best of my ability (Since most members lack knowledge about it). I cannot defend Taleban or Hefazot or any other activists. As I am not connected to them. Therefore, it is hard to speak on their behalf.

Another member ( I think it was Bain) "ordered" me to clean up Bangladesh from Islamists type of people. not touching the filthy personal attacks.

Are these RATIONAL comments?

It has been a repeated theme here in Mukto-mona. Some atheists and non-Muslim members feel free to verbally abuse people (Personally) and attack Islam but expects ALL Muslims to respond to them "Perfectly". A very unrealistic and childish attitude.

I have denounced the violent book burning. Maybe you have not read it. But that does not stop these "Gentlemen" from acting irrationally. It is just a "Bangladeshi" Muslim after all.

I have seen many Muslims leaving this very forum who were quite fair in their approach. Last one was a freedom fighter!!


I thought I made it abundantly clear that, I do not support violent extremists of any religion (Including mine). You gotta read my posts a little more carefully to keep up with it my man!!


Take it easy.


Shalom!




-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 7, 2013 6:44 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] One Pakistan by Nehru, Two Pakistans by Indira

 








__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

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