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Tuesday, July 31, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling



Asking question and questioning are two different things. Religion is divine and authoritative and hence beyond questioning or challenge. Questioning or challenging a religion, a religious scripture, and a religious prophet is blasphemous.

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
Only an inquisitive mind can question his faith.  Ain't it forbidden in religion?

>>>>>>>>>>> Asking questions is not "Forbidden" in Islam. In fact the Qur'an asks the readers to think, ponder and verify the message it gave. Then it also challenges the readers as well.

However making fictional false tales, libel, slander is not exactly "Questioning religion". That is what you call "Disturbing Obsession with religion".

For example, there are many institutions, websites openly seeks "Questions" about Islam. Now a days scholars of Islam encourages followers to know reasons behind rituals of Islam. I think it is a good thing and people are reacting well to this.

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Sat, Jul 28, 2012 8:19 pmSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
My observation was based on history from the point of view of a believer.  Only an inquisitive mind can question his faith.  Ain't it forbidden in religion?
On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 4:35 AM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I would not turn the observation of "it is blasphemous for a scientist to teach a believer to question his faith" by Dr. Das into an advice to be followed.
 
I would rather turn George Bernard Shaw's observation of "all great truths begin as blasphemies", as quoted by Mr. Deeldar, into an advice. That is, commit blasphemies, if you have to, to uncover the truths.
 
However, since blasphemy is such a sensitive matter for the believers, I think rational people could avoid publicly questioning beliefs that look innocent. Proactive attacks on hateful beliefs can also be avoided. However, actual acts of hatred should be corrected and/or punished; there arguments like, "oh I (or we) did it because my (or our) religion taught me (or us) to do it" should not be accepted.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=======================================

Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
"It is blasphemous for a scientist to teach a believer to question his faith."
 
I think that is a great advice!

"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
Dr. Roy, even the big bang theory is outdated long ago.  In cosmology, a theory is created every six months.  All those disciples of Moses, Jews, Christians and Moslems who believe that the Universe was created in six days should first explain what days they are talking about.  Isn't a day the time required for the earth to complete a spin, or apparently the time taken by the Sun to circle around the earth? So the Genesis story falls apart right away.  Let Mr. Rahman be in peace with his revealed stories of the Holy Quran, let him be happy with the Islamic version of Ariyan heresy that Allah created the Universe with advice and instruction from Nur Muhammad.  It is blasphemous for a scientist to teach a believer to question his faith.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 5:57 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
You are right initially some power was needed to get the process going. That was the big-bang, the instigating force behind all these. This power did not create Mother Nature; it happened long after the big-bang through many evolutionary cycles.
 
You probably will admit that God is not a human, because – in order to be 'omnipresent,' God has to possess infinite dimension, which Mother Nature has. Almightiness of Mother Nature is demonstrated during the thunderous lightning in the storm or during hurricanes or earthquakes. When religious scripture says God is 'forgiving,' it refers to the same nature, that accepts everyone indiscriminately (good, bad, religious, non-religious, and, yes, atheists). What it means is - we are too insignificant in the eye of the omnipresent, almighty, and all-forgiving God.
 
Unfortunately - most people, educated and uneducated alike, envision God as a human-like object, and that's where we go wrong. Following that notion, people do all sorts of crazy things to please Him.  They do things assuming - God has eyes, and He will see what the heck they are doing; they talk to him, hoping - He has ears, and He will listen to and understand what they are asking for in their weird languages. Even people sacrifice their lives, assuming - God is noticing and He will reward them in the after-life. The whole thing is out of whack and crazy. What they forget is – we are insignificant creatures in the wide universe.
 
Therefore, religious scriptures may be correct, but our interpretations may be all wrong.
 
Jiten Roy
--- On Tue, 7/24/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, July 24, 2012, 5:06 AM
 
You want to know who created the Mather Nature. It's like the Chicken-and-Egg story. Who created what? 
>>>>>>>>>>> Member Roy, I do know who created "Mother nature". I was making a comment about it. The chicken or egg don't fall from the sky on their own. Some power had to start the cycle at one point of time. Now, you will probably ask – who created the explosion?
>>>>>>>>>> Again I am not asking anything. Simply offering an alternative view to the topic. I am comfortable with my findings and it does not contradict with what modern science accepts. Sharing a little here. ...
"Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: 'Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We do come (together), in willing obedience.'   So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.   
(The Noble Quran, 41:11-12)"

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? 
(The Noble Quran, 21:30)"

Let me ask you - who creates thunder, storm, rain, etc? They are naturally created phenomena.

>>>>>>>>> They are natural phenomena. However at some point of time, some power had to get the process going. For example: just because you need a cell phone, your Nokia does not come up "Naturally". Someone had to think of it, design it and produce it. Once it is produced, it works according to some set "Programs". Similarly ever mother nature has some "Rules" and it works according to the design.


If you still – want to go back to Quran for explanation, you can. Many Hindus will also go to Brahma,

>>>>>>>>>> I can only speak for myself here. I did not "Go back to the Qur'an" as part of some "Blind faith". I have provided many references to establish/support my point of view. My views may have some religious leaning but my methodology is as secular and scientific as you can get.
The religious explanations about creations appear to me as fairy-tale stories >>>>>>>>>> I think the sources and references have to be visited before you accept it or reject it. There are world known scientists who work on these issues and they don't go by blind faith. Since our "Mother nature" theory is also a "faith based" phenomenon, I guess the Qur'an based explanation made more sense to me (personal opinion!). I respect your point of views and your freedom to pick what sounds right to you. Thank you for taking part in the discussion. Shalom! -----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jul 24, 2012 7:04 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
Q. Rahman: "I just think my praises are reserved for the power who created "Mother nature".
 
You want to know who created the Mather Nature. It's like the Chicken-and-Egg story. Who created what? 
 
According to scientific explanation - Universe was created out of an explosion. Now, you will probably ask – who created the explosion?  I would say it's an accident; nobody creates accident; it just happens. 
 
Let me ask you - who creates thunder, storm, rain, etc? They are naturally created phenomena. They happen under right condition. Thinking about this – Harold Urey, Nobel Laureate Scientist, Columbia University, mentioned to one of his students, Stanley L. Miller, to organize an experiment to procreate these natural phenomena. They set up a container with right mixture of gases (to represent early stages of the earth's surface) and subjected them to an artificial electric spark to simulate lightening. In a week, little red liquid started to form. They analyzed it, and found that it contains amino acids, the building blocks of the organic life-form (DNA). Thus, it is believed that life begun in shallow pools on the earth's surface, known as organic soup.
If you still – want to go back to Quran for explanation, you can. Many Hindus will also go to Brahma, the creator. Actually, it is up to the aptitude of each individual to believe in any of these stories. The religious explanations about creations appear to me as fairy-tale stories. Hence, I will stick to the scientific explanations, until further plausible explanation comes along.  Thank you.
Jiten Roy
 
I know - this scientific explanation is not convincing to you; so you have referred to the Quran.   --- On Mon, 7/23/12, qar <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 23, 2012, 8:43 AM
 
How can I deny the existence of God in the Moher Nature?
>>>>>>>> Absolutely. No one can deny mother nature. I just think my praises are reserved for the power who created "Mother nature". Your cell phone did not make itself, it needed a maker (RIM, Apple, Nokia, Samsung...etc). Similarly the wonderful nature we see around us needed a "Maker" as well. A chapter in the Qur'an talks about it. It consistently ask readers the question, " Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?"Indeed our Maker gave us so many gifts. Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 19, 2012 5:05 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
Religion was once a shuva-sanskar (positive reform) for the primitive societies, not any more. With the advent of the scientific and psychological advancement and understanding, the role of religion in the society is diminished. This is because - many of those good religious virtues are already adopted as norms in the society.  What's left to be adopted is the anti-modernity ku-sanskar (negative reform). Religionists are constantly fighting with pro-modernity forces to implement those anti-modernity ku-sanskars. As a result, religion has been a drag for the advancement of the modern societies now.
 
Now, as far as atheists are concerned - they are still fighting the conceptual battle over the existence of God, which is leading them to many psychological and conceptual conflicts. How can I deny something that is unknown? To me, it's a needless battle. God exists only in our concept. I am sure most people, except religionists, will agree that - all living-beings are the offspring of the Mother Nature. Spiritual songs of Rabindra Nath Tagore are all devoted to the Mother Nature. That was his conceptual God, I believe. Your conceptual God lives in your aptitude and imagination. How can I deny the existence of God in the Moher Nature?
 
Jiten Roy --- On Tue, 7/17/12, subimal chakrabarty <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: "http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 8:41 AM
 
Yours may be one of some possible explanations. I still remember what Bani Basu, a novelist from West Bengal and wife of a Buddhist scholar, has written in the introduction of her "semi-historical" novel "Maitrya Jatak": "Dharma is a shuva sanskar". This "sanskar" (can we trnslate it into "superstition"? Probably not.) is the result of religious beliefs of thosands of years of our forefathers. To this has been added the strong religious environment the atheist is living in. It's foundation in our subconscious mind is so splod that even a "confirmed" atheist fails to escape it completely. And this manifests itself in an atheist's love for devotional or spiritual songs of  Rabindranath and others.  
 
From: Shah Deeldar <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: "http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 1:55 PMSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
"Is it not fascinating that even the educated and culturally advanced atheists and skeptics love devotional songs written by our great lyricists? Why is it so? "

Very interesting observation!
Here is my two cents:
No matter how much we know about the nature and its laws, it will still be a mystery for us for many millions years to come. We will never be able to attain the absolute knowledge that we might need to predict a future incident like a plane crash in the sky or say, us facing certain deaths on certain dates. That insecurity might be a factor why we still do not mind to sing the hallelujah hymn to yield that undefined mysterious power to a greater power than ours own? 
-SD   
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: subimal chakrabarty <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 10:46 AMSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
1.Use of drug has been an integral part of the culture of many secretive and semi-secretive cults. The "sati" had sometimes to be drugged to persuade her to walk onto the burning pyre of her dead husband. I have seen smoking of "ganja" by people (male) of all ages during the religious event called "trinather mela". In urban religious practices of Hinduism, this (smoking ganja) has been greatly marginalized or probably has vanished. Many Hindu sadhus cannot do without it. Drug opens spiritual window for the truth seeker. In my young life I have seen disciples (fans) sitting around the master (male or female) to get engaged in profound spiritual talks while smoking ganja.  
2. There has always been uses of the religion by the exploiters as the opiate of the masses. But it has other uses too. Think about a typical Indian Hindu mother with little education and who was born 80 years ago. Religion has taught her to completely devote herself to the service of her husband. This is exploitative part. On the other hand religion gives her God or gods and goddesses to be worshiped for piety and spiritual and mystical experiences and pleasure as well. Also observance of religious rituals is a part of her daily routine. Obviously fear factor is a motive force behind her religious behavior. But what about the 100-year old educated and highly religious father who sees same one God in every god and goddess and who has no belief in hell or heaven or in piety? Yes, at the times of hardships and distress he prays and tears roll down his cheeks while he is praying. Here religion provides him with a drug free comfort. Here I see a great utility of religion in the personal life of a believer. When he is in total despair, he completely submits himself to God.   
3. There is hardly any one who chose his own religion. He already has it by default and it is now his duty to practice it believing that it is a great thing and he should be proud of it. While practicing it and knowing more and more about it questions may however arise in his inquiring mind. 
4. Being proud of one's own religion and considering the same as the best one is typical of the educated and socially and politically conscious class. Common toiling and economically struggling people do not have time to engage in such a luxury. Even he has hardly any time to observe all the recommended rituals. 
5. Is it not fascinating that even the educated and culturally advanced atheists and skeptics love devotional songs written by our great lyricists? Why is it so?                        
 
From: Kamal Das <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 8:21 PMSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
"it is a mere drug free comfort for our mind!"  In reality, the psychedelic drugs had a great role in the development and propagation of religions.
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Shah Deeldar <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
"Religion is one such belief also. But, it brings some sort of pride in people."
I call it the last resort to belong to a huge cult. I would rather look at it from a Freudian angle. It is far easier to become a religious man than a true knowledge gatherer. It brings pride to people who have nothing else to proud of! Why would a criminal be interested in converting to born again in something after five consecutive murders? What would be a better choice for him/her? Learning more about how celestial objects are faithfully orbiting around other stars and planets? Or, take a new religious attire and demand respect from others? No doubt, the later sounds far easier! Look, my words are harsh but that is what I feel about religions. If anybody thinks that the God being on their side, I say, keep dreaming on brothers and sisters. To me, it is a mere drug free comfort for our mind! No more and no less! -SD  
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
People believe in many things; not all those beliefs are revealed to others. We all have our own prejudices/superstitions. Exposing one's prejudices is like exposing one's 'stupidities.' As a result, people rarely talk about them. How do you express that you believe in something that does not exist? Is it a sign of smartness or what?
Religion is one such belief also. But, it brings some sort of pride in people. So  they feel the need to show their religiosity to others in their religious attires and/or appearances to stir up otherwise nonexistent resentment and hatred. There is no end in sight to end these types of cultural disturbance in our societies.
 
Jiten Roy --- On Fri, 7/13/12, Shah Deeldar <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Shah Deeldar <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: "http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, July 13, 2012, 9:53 AM
 
How you feel about your own faith and belief is not anybody's concern unless you impose your values and standard on others. To me, it is more important to see whether a belief takes people to the dark ages or enlightenment of a verifiable truth. I can tolerate your belief but may not respect your belief. If you are a free thinker, that should be totally OK with you as I would follow the same rule.
-SD 
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: qar <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=qrahman@netscape.net>
To: http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 9:18 AMSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
If religious people can keep their religion private and stop boasting about their religion being the best, there would not any problem.
>>>>>>>> I agree. Actually arrogance is bad for all people. It eats up best qualities from our personalities. However, if you ask me about my faith and how I feel about it, you should be able to tolerate my "Opinion" on MY faith matters. I have seen people have some preconceived notions about religious people and often go with it. Having tolerance and rejecting/reducing arrogance are "Best practices" for any peaceful communities. No matter if you want to view it from religious point of view or secular point of view. Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Shah Deeldar <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:47 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
Only thing I can add here is that the people, who are truly spiritual and never stop asking questions about our origin and our relation to the universe should not have any problem with little critic.  If religious people can keep their religion private and stop boasting about their religion being the best, there would not any problem. But. that is not happening in practice and hence, they do deserve critic now and then. Any belief should be challenged now and then before it gets transformed as an universal truth. The next thing you will find that people will be demanding the religiously adjusted science in the public schools. Who would want that? How would reach to the next frontier with such compromised science?
-SD
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Jiten Roy <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 9:32 PMSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
I have thought about the question also - as to why people get offended by the criticism of their religions; why can't they leave it to God.  This is what I found.
People are interested in religion not only for the eternal rewards, but - also they are also interested in the brand name of the clan. Religion is no different from other commercial commodity. It needs to be sold for continued expansion, and criticism is not good for the business, and also for the reputation of the clan.  As a result, people cannot wait for God's punishment.
Now, the tolerance level of criticism varies from followers to followers. Some followers may care more about eternal rewards than expansionism. They will have more tolerance to criticism. Some followers could be totally indifferent of criticism. It's a matter of priority.
Having said that, I have to recognize that, while protecting the brand name is discouraged in some religions, it is mandatory in others. 
Jiten Roy --- On Tue, 7/3/12, Sukhamaya Bain <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: "http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2012, 4:36 PM
 
Along with making a little correction in my post below, let me put forth my thoughts on one of the terms that I have used.
                                                                                                                   
Abusing Religion:
 
From time to time, many religious people accuse non-religious people and people of other religions of abusing their religion. Example: if someone were to open up the Bible and criticize something in it, he/she would be accused by some Christians of abusing their religion. I said "some" (as opposed to "many") for Christians, because I believe this group has progressed significantly for a lot of them to ignore such criticisms.
 
However, let us try some logic. What can be more abuse for God (Allah, Bhagaban, whatever else in other lanugages) than the so-called believers to think that He is not almighty, and that He needs help from them? What can be more doubting of God's power than thinking that He needs humans to fight for Him (or for His religion) in this world?
 
The way I see it, if someone actually insulted God or His messenger, a true believer could feel pity for the insulter. Because, according to the belief, the insult was against the most powerful, and the insulter might have invited big trouble for himself/herself in the form of punishment from God. If God knew best, the believer would have no business prescribing a punishment for the insulter. The most civilized and caring action for the believer would be to pray to God to change the insulter's mind, the power of which God certainly has according to his/her true belief.
 
The bottom line is, if religion was really for believing in the almighty God (Allah, Bhagaban, whatever else in other lanugages), as opposed to forming/maintaining/expanding a clan, there should be no reason for humans to fight, or to hate, for maintaining or promoting it.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=================================================
From: Sukhamaya Bain <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=subain1@yahoo.com>
To: "http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 9:32 AMSubject: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
Indeed, I believe most of us in this forum are opposed to religion-peddling, as Ms. Majid wrote. As I wrote before, there is no point in opening up religious books for criticism, even when that might look scholarly.
 
I am opposed to the use, misuse and abuse of religions, all of which have caused a lot of division, hatred and injustice in the world. While I do not follow any religion, I am not unwilling to do something just because if was found in a religious book. In other words, I am perfectly OK to implement in my life anything that is good in the Koran, for example.
 
To me, all religious books are part of my history. None of them are "my religion" or "someone else's religion." I am open to follow anything good in any book. I have no animosity toward any religion. For me, no religion needs to have cadres of defenders.
 
However, I am certainly for discarding anything bad in any book. And I am unwilling to dig for contexts by which a seemingly bad teaching can be interpreted to be OK or good. Nor do I have time for overly-brainwashed 'scholars', who try to sustain and promote nonsense in what they think is 'their religion'.
 
The bottom line is, we should fight division, hatred and injustice that are promoted via use, misuse and abuse or religions.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
====================================
 
There is a gray area between religion itself and the way it is used by vested interest groups. In a God fearing society it is unproductive and sometimes catastrophic to bluntly criticize a religion. It antagonizes common people and the reactionary forces get an excuse to pull them on their own side. But can a society really progress without pointing out the weaknesses in a religion? Obviously, No. But if we do so, religious feelings of the believers cannot but be hurt. It is a dilemma indeed. When Dipa Mehta shows in her film "Water" the quote from Gandhi and Manusanhita side by side, the Hindutvabadis do not like it. But we come to know that Gandhi did not endorse all of sage Manu's sacred pronouncements.
 
======================================
From: Farida Majid <http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: http://us.mc1427.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 8:55 AMSubject: RE: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
 
                  Do we all agree, on this one point, that we are all opposed to religion-peddling? I fervently hope that the answer is: YES.                 If so, then it is our solemn duty to understand the matter of 'religion-peddling'.                          In this business of religion -peddling it is the 'peddling' part that should command our attention.  And that requires certain in-depth and close attention to politics. Religion is a very powerful cultural artifice, and since both politics and religion deal with a community of people, there has been a mix of the two from time immemorial.  But we are constantly talking about religion-related  social symptoms, and mis-diagnosing them as 'religion'.  Why? There are several reasons.  One, mental laziness.  It takes a lot more patience and astute observation to do a political analysis. It needs historical information.              Throughout the 16th century in Europe , for instance, the Catholic Church was fighting an intense political battle with the breaking up of the Church.  The execution of the Nolan Magus and poet, Giordano Bruno, who was not a scientist or mathematician like Nicholas Copernicus, and the persecution of astronomer Galileo, a couple of decades later are indicative of the Church's political authority under severe pressure.  It is silly to cite this as the paradigmatic 'science v. religion' struggle.  It is a singular historical event within the context of Europe .               Both Dawkins and Hitchens are being totally dishonest in their discussions against religion. Dawkins is addressing the Creationists exclusively, and Hitchens's arguments apply to the Jehadists only.  Neither has the courage and intelligence of Karen Armstrong who discards the construction of the binary opposition of 'science v. religion' and refuses any hierarchical positioning of the two branches of knowledge.               Two, critiquing religion is a mask for communalism.  More on that later.                               Farida Majid
 
==============================


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"Honorable PM: Please extend the dateline till 31st Dec 2012 for claiming ownership of Vested Property"
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Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Humayun and west Bengal's journalists/writers/politicians [On Munshizee's comment



1. My Ph.D and university professor friend was talking direction of film by Satayajit Ray and Humayun Ahmed. He is a confident man. He categorically said that Satyajit is nothing compared to Humayun, and that is OK. If you think comparion does not make any sense, that is also OK to me. I am not a I film critic and have never taken a film appreciation course. I have however read criticisms of films and books on film appreciation. However, as a lay watcher of film, I will rely on the qualified film critics.
2. The same argument as above applies in case of literature also. Most of us have not read Homer, Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Conrad, etc. Literary critics unanimously agree on the greatness of these writers. I will not insult them by calling them "antels". They have simply used their professionalism. They are not lay emotional readers who read exclusively for entertaiment. They are properly trained in their trade. I love and read literary criticisms.
3. I will not be so egoistic as to measure the quality of a creative work with my own standard. 

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Humayun and west Bengal's journalists/writers/politicians [On Munshizee's comment

 
Humayun Ahmed was good but his popularity was not due to his writing abilities only. He pioneered new style in TV drama and cinema. He brought back middle class to movie halls again. He got them back in buying Bangladeshi books again. He made Rabindra Sangit and folk songs popular. His style was simple and accessible to all kind of people. You don't need a Ph.D in Bangla to "Understand Humayun". That was his style!!

He promoted compassion among people. He ignited spirit of "Muktijuddo" when it was not part of "Political game". He introduced a new type of science fiction and made it popular as well.

I don't think it is proper to compare him with anyone. He was one of a kind!!

If it takes certain people few more decades to give him proper respect, let it be. People of our country (Thankfully) did not wait for "Atels" (Intellectuals) to honor him. They shown him the highest respect and tons of love. I am glad people of my country got this one right!!

Try to write a comedy and you will find out how hard it is to be funny. Too bad we don't appreciate good humor. I did not read a lot of Humayun for last few years but I enjoyed his books, dramas, movies whenever I had some time for them.

As an avid fan of Satyajit Roy, I don't think Humayun ever tried to "Beat" Mr. Roy in anything and it is clear to me Mr. Roy was not going for the subject that was dear to Humayun. So this comparison is silly. I am very thankful to Humayun and Roy family (Four generations) for their contribution to our lives.

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jul 29, 2012 8:57 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Humayun and west Bengal's journalists/writers/politicians [On Munshizee's comment

 
As a reader of a creative mind I will deprive myself by enjoying less and also getting less out of my reading if I mix up the creative person's life style, moral and ethical values, political beliefs, etc. with the creative works. As a matter of fact, a big percentage of the creative geniuses had or have questionable integrity. 
Any way, let me come back to Humayun Ahmed. A friend of mine born, brought up and educated in Bangladesh but now settled in Kolkata has recently asked me if Humayun Ahmed has written any thing for people of our age. My answer to his question is YES. As a matter of fact, people of all ages in general will enjoy his stories written in reader friendly prose. But has Humayun written enough for people of his age and with the literary taste he has? My answer is NO. My friend is an M.A in English with high literary taste. Humayun can easily be one's summer readings, but Waliullah or Ilias cannot be so because of the seriousness they have put into their works. Lalsalu or Khoannsma are taught at graduate level in both the Bengals. I am not sure about Humayun's future in academic environment. 
One of my outspoken friends has made an interesting comment on Humayun: he has put the last nail to the coffin of our serious literature. Humayun sells 100000 copies while Ilias sells 100. My friend is right to the extent that presence of highly popular books in the market can discourages creation of serious literature. 
Was Humayun anti-people or anti-progress? Not at all. I am talking about literary standard which is quite different from what we common people look for in the story in a story book. Didn't Humayun have indepth knowledge about the society and people around him? No doubt, he had. Didn't he understand the various mechanism that are in action in our society? Obviously he did. Then what did he lack to write serious literature? Time, effort, dedication, commitment, courage to break the current literary style and practices, and so on. He was a knowledgable man and a person of great compassion. But that is not enough to write great novels. In the minds of the readers he will have a long life as Sarat is having. 
About a decade ago another friend of (a Ph.D in science from a good American university) made the following comment after watching one of Humayun's TV drama (probably 'Ochin Pakhi'): Satyajit Ray is nothing compared to Humayun Ahmed. I also watched it and it was really good. As far as I remember it was not directed by Humayun. What can you say to a friend who is teaching in an American university? I said nothing. 
One more thing that my friend from Kolkata said: Taslima said appropriate things at inappropriate time. He added: she was an attention seeker. What do you think?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2012, at 10:25 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

 
Even eulogies should have a limit.  When Humayun impregnated his second daughter's friend Shaon and underwent a crisis resulting to divorce with Gultekin , the media made a devil of him, and now they are trying to make him divine.  All his life, the 'genius' had been driven by a lust for money and women.  Who know him better than his first wife and family members?

2012/7/26 Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
 
        Read the comment of the scumbag Munshi! Then there's Zag the Jackal's hukka huaaaaaaaaaaa at the end

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 14:01:08 -0400
Subject: Humayun and west Bengal's journalists/writers/politicians [On Munshizee's comment]
From: syed.aslam3@gmail.com
To: khabor@yahoogroups.com; notun_bangladesh@yahoogroups.com; chottala@yahoogroups.com

Mr. MBI Munshi
Keep wondering .....   সুনীল গঙ্গোপাধ্যায়  must be <Irshakator1.JPG>
That's why he didn't come to Dhaka, just rated " হুমায়ূন আহমেদ 
সত্যেই একজন বড় লেখক। বাংলা ভাষার গর্ব " !!!!
BTW, you didn't forget to indicate that সুনীল গঙ্গোপাধ্যায় [Sunil dada]
is a <MalaunerBaccha.PNG>! Your fastidious observation should be admired !!!!!!!!

Related:
জনপ্রিয়তায় শরৎচন্দ্রকেও ছাড়িয়ে গেছে হুমায়ূন, মানবজমিনকে সুনীল গঙ্গোপাধ্যা  [শনিবার, ২১ জুলাই ২০১২]:

হুমায়ূন আহমেদের মৃত্যুর পর সুনীল গঙ্গোপাধ্যায়ের প্রতিক্রিয়া

সর্বশেষ আপডেট শুক্রবার, 20 জুলাই, 2012 13:55 GMT 19:55 বাংলাদেশ সময়
    
SA

2012/7/25 MBI Munshi <mbimunshi@gmail.com>

I wonder if Sunil dada would have said anything unless the BBC approached him for his comments. Thanks go to the BBC for eliciting a comment. If Sunil was so grief srtickn why did he not come to Dhaka to pay his respects. 

2012/7/25 SyedAslam <syed.aslam3@gmail.com>

Mr. Munshi

Watch the You-Tube video:

Sunil Gangopadhyay, after the death of Humayun Ahmed (BBC Bangla interview)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcrJgIiyt50 

হুমায়ূন আহমেদকে বাংলা কথাসাহিত্যে শরৎচন্দ্র চট্টোপাধ্যায়ের ওপরেই স্থান দিয়েছেন কথাসাহিত্যিক সুনীল গঙ্গোপাধ্যায়। বিবিসি বাংলায় তিনি বলেছেন, বাংলা ভাষায় শরৎচন্দ্র চট্টোপাধ্যায়ের এক সময় অনেক জনপ্রিয়তা ছিল। কিন্তু হুমায়ূন তাকেও ছাড়িয়ে গেছে। 
"......হুমায়ূন আহমেদ সত্যেই একজন বড় লেখক। বাংলা ভাষার গর্ব। " - সুনীল গঙ্গোপাধ্যায়

The comment was made by Sunil on 20th July immediately after 
Humayun Ahmed's death. I am yet to see any such candid appreciation 
from any of our fellow Bangladeshi literary persons like Poet Al-Mahmood et. el.

Thanks for exposing yourself with your motivated skepticism..... 

SA
<Sunil_Ganguly_on_HymayunAhmed.JPG>


2012/7/24 MBI Munshi <mbimunshi@gmail.com>

A quickly arranged seminar to counter the criticism from Bangladesh. A little to late me thinks.



2012/7/24 SyedAslam <syed.aslam3@gmail.com>
http://www.prothom-alo.com/detail/date/2012-07-24/news/276411 

হাজার বছরের জনপ্রিয় সাহিত্যিক হুমায়ূন: শংকর

কলকাতা প্রতিনিধি | তারিখ: ২৪-০৭-২০১২

হুমায়ূন আহমেদের মৃত্যুতে কলকাতায় শোকসভা অনুষ্ঠিত হয়।
ছবি: ভাস্কর মুখার্জি
<kolkata2012-07-24-15-04-07-500eb9674e9c4.jpg>
বাংলাদেশের প্রখ্যাত সাহিত্যিক হুমায়ূন আহমেদের মৃত্যুতে আজ মঙ্গলবার কলকাতায় এক শোকসভা অনুষ্ঠিত হয়। শোকসভায় প্রখ্যাত সাহিত্যিক সুনীল গঙ্গোপাধ্যায় বলেছেন, 'আমি এখনো ভাবতে পারছি না বন্ধু হুমায়ূন আহমেদ নেই। এখনো ও বেঁচে আছে আমার মনজুড়ে। শুধু আমি নই, পশ্চিমবঙ্গের মানুষের মাঝেও হুমায়ূন বেঁচে থাকবে।' তিনি আরও বলেন, 'হুমায়ূনের জনপ্রিয়তা তো শরত্চন্দ্র চট্টোপাধ্যায়কেও ছাড়িয়ে গেছে। আমার তো মনে হয়, শরত্চন্দ্রের কয়েক গুণ বেশি চলেছে হুমায়ূনের উপন্যাস। সত্যি কথা কী, আমি চাইনি প্রাণহীন হুমায়ূনকে দেখতে। চ�




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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling



"The Qur'an spoke about it as well."
Crap! No wonder why Quran has produced virtually zero Nobel laureates. 
Shalom!
-SD
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
Stop smoking, brother! Our universe was created from total randomness! It is a pure fluke that we exits

>>>>>>>>> Yup. The smartphones, computer, Big screen TV, sky scrappers just appeared from "Randomness"!! 


 The interesting thing to note that, our body is more complex than stuff I mentioned.

Yes, you are right. New planets are being created and destroyed in the universe. Who knew about it thousands of years ago???

The Qur'an spoke about it as well. Please click here


Those who are brave enough to really understand a different point of view, please click here.


Shalom!

-----Original Message-----
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:30 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
Stop smoking, brother! Our universe was created from total randomness! It is a pure fluke that we exits. There are probably many more earth like planets are being created or destroyed as we speak. And, they might contain  different forms of life than ours. We do not even know. Religious books were written by people, who had only vague idea about math, physics, chemistry and biology. Not enough knowledge to think beyond our earth. Only thing, that they were capable of doing is to eat and poop. Do not tell me that people like Galileo and others only reinvented the wheels. That is a pure crap!
-SD 
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
How can I deny the existence of God in the Moher Nature?


>>>>>>>> Absolutely. No one can deny mother nature. I just think my praises are reserved for the power who created "Mother nature". Your cell phone did not make itself, it needed a maker (RIM, Apple, Nokia, Samsung...etc). Similarly the wonderful nature we see around us needed a "Maker" as well. A chapter in the Qur'an talks about it. It consistently ask readers the question, " Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?"

Indeed our Maker gave us so many gifts.

Shalom!




-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 19, 2012 5:05 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
Religion was once a shuva-sanskar (positive reform) for the primitive societies, not any more. With the advent of the scientific and psychological advancement and understanding, the role of religion in the society is diminished. This is because - many of those good religious virtues are already adopted as norms in the society.  What's left to be adopted is the anti-modernity ku-sanskar (negative reform). Religionists are constantly fighting with pro-modernity forces to implement those anti-modernity ku-sanskars. As a result, religion has been a drag for the advancement of the modern societies now.
 
Now, as far as atheists are concerned - they are still fighting the conceptual battle over the existence of God, which is leading them to many psychological and conceptual conflicts. How can I deny something that is unknown? To me, it's a needless battle. God exists only in our concept. I am sure most people, except religionists, will agree that - all living-beings are the offspring of the Mother Nature. Spiritual songs of Rabindra Nath Tagore are all devoted to the Mother Nature. That was his conceptual God, I believe. Your conceptual God lives in your aptitude and imagination. How can I deny the existence of God in the Moher Nature?
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Tue, 7/17/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 8:41 AM

 
Yours may be one of some possible explanations. I still remember what Bani Basu, a novelist from West Bengal and wife of a Buddhist scholar, has written in the introduction of her "semi-historical" novel "Maitrya Jatak": "Dharma is a shuva sanskar". This "sanskar" (can we trnslate it into "superstition"? Probably not.) is the result of religious beliefs of thosands of years of our forefathers. To this has been added the strong religious environment the atheist is living in. It's foundation in our subconscious mind is so splod that even a "confirmed" atheist fails to escape it completely. And this manifests itself in an atheist's love for devotional or spiritual songs of  Rabindranath and others.  
 
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
"Is it not fascinating that even the educated and culturally advanced atheists and skeptics love devotional songs written by our great lyricists? Why is it so? "

Very interesting observation!
Here is my two cents:
No matter how much we know about the nature and its laws, it will still be a mystery for us for many millions years to come. We will never be able to attain the absolute knowledge that we might need to predict a future incident like a plane crash in the sky or say, us facing certain deaths on certain dates. That insecurity might be a factor why we still do not mind to sing the hallelujah hymn to yield that undefined mysterious power to a greater power than ours own? 
-SD   
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
1.Use of drug has been an integral part of the culture of many secretive and semi-secretive cults. The "sati" had sometimes to be drugged to persuade her to walk onto the burning pyre of her dead husband. I have seen smoking of "ganja" by people (male) of all ages during the religious event called "trinather mela". In urban religious practices of Hinduism, this (smoking ganja) has been greatly marginalized or probably has vanished. Many Hindu sadhus cannot do without it. Drug opens spiritual window for the truth seeker. In my young life I have seen disciples (fans) sitting around the master (male or female) to get engaged in profound spiritual talks while smoking ganja.  
2. There has always been uses of the religion by the exploiters as the opiate of the masses. But it has other uses too. Think about a typical Indian Hindu mother with little education and who was born 80 years ago. Religion has taught her to completely devote herself to the service of her husband. This is exploitative part. On the other hand religion gives her God or gods and goddesses to be worshiped for piety and spiritual and mystical experiences and pleasure as well. Also observance of religious rituals is a part of her daily routine. Obviously fear factor is a motive force behind her religious behavior. But what about the 100-year old educated and highly religious father who sees same one God in every god and goddess and who has no belief in hell or heaven or in piety? Yes, at the times of hardships and distress he prays and tears roll down his cheeks while he is praying. Here religion provides him with a drug free comfort. Here I see a great utility of religion in the personal life of a believer. When he is in total despair, he completely submits himself to God.   
3. There is hardly any one who chose his own religion. He already has it by default and it is now his duty to practice it believing that it is a great thing and he should be proud of it. While practicing it and knowing more and more about it questions may however arise in his inquiring mind. 
4. Being proud of one's own religion and considering the same as the best one is typical of the educated and socially and politically conscious class. Common toiling and economically struggling people do not have time to engage in such a luxury. Even he has hardly any time to observe all the recommended rituals. 
5. Is it not fascinating that even the educated and culturally advanced atheists and skeptics love devotional songs written by our great lyricists? Why is it so?                        
 

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
"it is a mere drug free comfort for our mind!"  In reality, the psychedelic drugs had a great role in the development and propagation of religions.
On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
"Religion is one such belief also. But, it brings some sort of pride in people."
I call it the last resort to belong to a huge cult. I would rather look at it from a Freudian angle. It is far easier to become a religious man than a true knowledge gatherer. It brings pride to people who have nothing else to proud of! Why would a criminal be interested in converting to born again in something after five consecutive murders? What would be a better choice for him/her? Learning more about how celestial objects are faithfully orbiting around other stars and planets? Or, take a new religious attire and demand respect from others? No doubt, the later sounds far easier! Look, my words are harsh but that is what I feel about religions. If anybody thinks that the God being on their side, I say, keep dreaming on brothers and sisters. To me, it is a mere drug free comfort for our mind! No more and no less! -SD  

"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
People believe in many things; not all those beliefs are revealed to others. We all have our own prejudices/superstitions. Exposing one's prejudices is like exposing one's 'stupidities.' As a result, people rarely talk about them. How do you express that you believe in something that does not exist? Is it a sign of smartness or what?
Religion is one such belief also. But, it brings some sort of pride in people. So  they feel the need to show their religiosity to others in their religious attires and/or appearances to stir up otherwise nonexistent resentment and hatred. There is no end in sight to end these types of cultural disturbance in our societies.
 
Jiten Roy --- On Fri, 7/13/12, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, July 13, 2012, 9:53 AM

 
How you feel about your own faith and belief is not anybody's concern unless you impose your values and standard on others. To me, it is more important to see whether a belief takes people to the dark ages or enlightenment of a verifiable truth. I can tolerate your belief but may not respect your belief. If you are a free thinker, that should be totally OK with you as I would follow the same rule.
-SD 
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
If religious people can keep their religion private and stop boasting about their religion being the best, there would not any problem.
>>>>>>>> I agree. Actually arrogance is bad for all people. It eats up best qualities from our personalities. However, if you ask me about my faith and how I feel about it, you should be able to tolerate my "Opinion" on MY faith matters. I have seen people have some preconceived notions about religious people and often go with it. Having tolerance and rejecting/reducing arrogance are "Best practices" for any peaceful communities. No matter if you want to view it from religious point of view or secular point of view. Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:47 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
Only thing I can add here is that the people, who are truly spiritual and never stop asking questions about our origin and our relation to the universe should not have any problem with little critic.  If religious people can keep their religion private and stop boasting about their religion being the best, there would not any problem. But. that is not happening in practice and hence, they do deserve critic now and then. Any belief should be challenged now and then before it gets transformed as an universal truth. The next thing you will find that people will be demanding the religiously adjusted science in the public schools. Who would want that? How would reach to the next frontier with such compromised science?
-SD
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
I have thought about the question also - as to why people get offended by the criticism of their religions; why can't they leave it to God.  This is what I found.
People are interested in religion not only for the eternal rewards, but - also they are also interested in the brand name of the clan. Religion is no different from other commercial commodity. It needs to be sold for continued expansion, and criticism is not good for the business, and also for the reputation of the clan.  As a result, people cannot wait for God's punishment.
Now, the tolerance level of criticism varies from followers to followers. Some followers may care more about eternal rewards than expansionism. They will have more tolerance to criticism. Some followers could be totally indifferent of criticism. It's a matter of priority.
Having said that, I have to recognize that, while protecting the brand name is discouraged in some religions, it is mandatory in others. 
Jiten Roy --- On Tue, 7/3/12, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2012, 4:36 PM

 
Along with making a little correction in my post below, let me put forth my thoughts on one of the terms that I have used.
                                                                                                                   
Abusing Religion:
 
From time to time, many religious people accuse non-religious people and people of other religions of abusing their religion. Example: if someone were to open up the Bible and criticize something in it, he/she would be accused by some Christians of abusing their religion. I said "some" (as opposed to "many") for Christians, because I believe this group has progressed significantly for a lot of them to ignore such criticisms.
 
However, let us try some logic. What can be more abuse for God (Allah, Bhagaban, whatever else in other lanugages) than the so-called believers to think that He is not almighty, and that He needs help from them? What can be more doubting of God's power than thinking that He needs humans to fight for Him (or for His religion) in this world?
 
The way I see it, if someone actually insulted God or His messenger, a true believer could feel pity for the insulter. Because, according to the belief, the insult was against the most powerful, and the insulter might have invited big trouble for himself/herself in the form of punishment from God. If God knew best, the believer would have no business prescribing a punishment for the insulter. The most civilized and caring action for the believer would be to pray to God to change the insulter's mind, the power of which God certainly has according to his/her true belief.
 
The bottom line is, if religion was really for believing in the almighty God (Allah, Bhagaban, whatever else in other lanugages), as opposed to forming/maintaining/expanding a clan, there should be no reason for humans to fight, or to hate, for maintaining or promoting it.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=================================================
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 9:32 AM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
 
Indeed, I believe most of us in this forum are opposed to religion-peddling, as Ms. Majid wrote. As I wrote before, there is no point in opening up religious books for criticism, even when that might look scholarly.
 
I am opposed to the use, misuse and abuse of religions, all of which have caused a lot of division, hatred and injustice in the world. While I do not follow any religion, I am not unwilling to do something just because if was found in a religious book. In other words, I am perfectly OK to implement in my life anything that is good in the Koran, for example.
 
To me, all religious books are part of my history. None of them are "my religion" or "someone else's religion." I am open to follow anything good in any book. I have no animosity toward any religion. For me, no religion needs to have cadres of defenders.
 
However, I am certainly for discarding anything bad in any book. And I am unwilling to dig for contexts by which a seemingly bad teaching can be interpreted to be OK or good. Nor do I have time for overly-brainwashed 'scholars', who try to sustain and promote nonsense in what they think is 'their religion'.
 
The bottom line is, we should fight division, hatred and injustice that are promoted via use, misuse and abuse or religions.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
====================================
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
 
There is a gray area between religion itself and the way it is used by vested interest groups. In a God fearing society it is unproductive and sometimes catastrophic to bluntly criticize a religion. It antagonizes common people and the reactionary forces get an excuse to pull them on their own side. But can a society really progress without pointing out the weaknesses in a religion? Obviously, No. But if we do so, religious feelings of the believers cannot but be hurt. It is a dilemma indeed. When Dipa Mehta shows in her film "Water" the quote from Gandhi and Manusanhita side by side, the Hindutvabadis do not like it. But we come to know that Gandhi did not endorse all of sage Manu's sacred pronouncements.
 
======================================
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 8:55 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
 
                  Do we all agree, on this one point, that we are all opposed to religion-peddling? I fervently hope that the answer is: YES.                 If so, then it is our solemn duty to understand the matter of 'religion-peddling'.                          In this business of religion -peddling it is the 'peddling' part that should command our attention.  And that requires certain in-depth and close attention to politics. Religion is a very powerful cultural artifice, and since both politics and religion deal with a community of people, there has been a mix of the two from time immemorial.  But we are constantly talking about religion-related  social symptoms, and mis-diagnosing them as 'religion'.  Why? There are several reasons.  One, mental laziness.  It takes a lot more patience and astute observation to do a political analysis. It needs historical information.              Throughout the 16th century in Europe , for instance, the Catholic Church was fighting an intense political battle with the breaking up of the Church.  The execution of the Nolan Magus and poet, Giordano Bruno, who was not a scientist or mathematician like Nicholas Copernicus, and the persecution of astronomer Galileo, a couple of decades later are indicative of the Church's political authority under severe pressure.  It is silly to cite this as the paradigmatic 'science v. religion' struggle.  It is a singular historical event within the context of Europe .               Both Dawkins and Hitchens are being totally dishonest in their discussions against religion. Dawkins is addressing the Creationists exclusively, and Hitchens's arguments apply to the Jehadists only.  Neither has the courage and intelligence of Karen Armstrong who discards the construction of the binary opposition of 'science v. religion' and refuses any hierarchical positioning of the two branches of knowledge.               Two, critiquing religion is a mask for communalism.  More on that later.                               Farida Majid
 
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