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Monday, September 17, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] FwS - Morris Sadek---My enemy is the God of Islam



Looks like one hatred is in encounter with another hatred. I believe in a multi religious society, the members of the majority group has a responsibility to be tolerant. Those fanatic Muslims of Egypt who declare the Coptic Christians have not followed this simple principle. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:07 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 



My enemy is the God of Islam that overstepped on my legislations and my faith and said that those who believe that Jesus is the son of God are infidels and rejects the crucifixion.

 
 >>>>>>>> Free speech or hate speech?

Shalom!
==========================================================================
 
 

Morris Sadek: "My enemy is the God of Islam"

| 18 September 2011 | 3 Comments
 
Morris Sadek is one of the most hated men in Egypt.hated
 
CAIRO: Morris Sadek, one of the most hated men in Egypt. A controversial figure for his fiery statements against Islam and Muslims and for his demands of international protection on Egypt's Coptic minority.
His name was recently mentioned in the declaration of the symbolic Coptic state in the United States. He conducted a number of talks and meetings with Congressional representatives, asking for US intervention in Egypt.
As a result of his work, his Egyptian citizenship has been withdrawn. He denounces the Egyptian and Arab uprisings and supports the Bashar al-Asaad regime in Syria.
Sadek lives with his family in the US as a religious refugee.
Bikyamasr.com interviewed Sadek via email.
 
First, you protested outside the White House to force international protection over Egypt?
International protection means forming a legal plan that goes along with the United Nations' international declaration for minorities and presenting it to the Egyptian government to be applied. Egypt uses foreign referees for its football matches and thus accepts. Egypt sent troops to Kosovo to protect the Muslim minority there. Therefore we are persing a decision by Congress to protect Copts after they have been slaughtered, blown to pieces outside of their churches, their daughter's kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam, their houses of worship set on fire, and complicating the procedures to build new ones, adding to that a complicit legal system that slacks in investigating crimes committed against Copts as well as excluding them from government jobs and not putting a quota for Copts in the parliament and insisting that Islam is the religion of the State and ignoring *25 million people who believe in Christianity and having the Arabic language, the language of the invaders, as the official language and *ignoring the Coptic language.
Muslims insist on keeping Sharia, or Islamic law, as a source of legislation and Copts refuse things such as cutting a thief's hand and whippings. It [Sharia] also diminishes women and considers them cursed and unclean. Therefore, we want an American envoy to make sure that the following happens in Egypt:
Enhancing religious freedoms for minorities such as Copts, Baha'is and Shiites. Also, to monitor religious prejudices, provide social and economic security and to work with the government to prevent laws that lean towards religious prejudices.
News reports were talking about the declaration of a Coptic state in the US, please shed light on that and did you ask people to immigrate and join you?
The idea of a Coptic State came after the March referendum that approved keeping Sharia as the main source of legislation, ignoring the Coptic people who reject Islam and Sharia and the idea behind establishing a Coptic state in Egypt is to have Coptic courts; they were cancelled by former president Gamal Abdul Nasser in 1956; Coptic religious schools and universities like al-Azhar; involving Copts in all governmental institutions with a percentage not less than 25 percent, including the police academy and the army and perhaps establishing a parallel Coptic Government working hand in hand with the central government to protect Copts rights.
Egyptian Copts have welcomed the idea of a Coptic state in Egypt, and as for the ignorant Copts, agents of the Arabic invasion who disagree with us, I can say we despise you and Muslims who refuse it are afraid that Copts will be masters in their own country, therefore Muslims' opinions have no weight internationally. We are not asking for immigration or division, we only ask for the sharing of power and the founders of the Coptic nation are working on taking the next constitutional and legal steps necessary. We have already chosen the flag and the national anthem.
Your Egyptian nationality has been recently withdrawn, how did you feel about that and will you fight the decision?
I felt I was hit by lighting when I heard the news. The Egyptian nationality is my flesh and bones and the bones and the graves of my ancestors are in Egypt. Nationality is not just a piece of paper and I defend my Coptic community's rights in Egypt and my weapons are words. I have repeatedly attacked former president Hosni Mubarak and prayed to God to revenge us yet he didn't withdraw my citizenship. The current ruling power, the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, had caused a scandal upon itself after many American newspapers reported the news that I lost my citizenship because of my opinions. The British never did it, but the Arab invaders did. However, I am fighting the decision and presented an appeal in front of the high administrative court.
What do you say to those accusing you of trading the Coptic cause for personal gain and fame?
I am a law man. I have a license to practice law from Egypt and a consulting license from the US and wrote many legal books that high courts in Egypt read and consult. These books will give me enduring fame, but I don't need fame because it doesn't help and as for financial issues, I have started a human rights organization in Egypt and have refused American funds before and all I ask for is freedom for my people.
You have declared your support to the Syrian regime and President Bashar al-Asad. Why?
Al-Assad is facing the Muslim Brotherhood and other terrorist groups killing in the name of Allah, therefore he is fighting them and in Egypt we faced the same threats before and fought against it.
Asaad didn't kill Christians or Muslims and never burned a church or bomb a car parked in front of one. There are many Christian ministers and ambassadors in Syria and Muslims and Christians are given equal employment and Christians could open a church without permission and if Asaad's regime is gone, so will the Syrian Christians, like what happened to the Copts in Egypt. This is ultimately what Saudi Arabia and Qatar wants. They were behind the uprisings in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya so the Muslim Brotherhood gain power all over the Middle East.
So this is how you view the Egyptian revolution?
I don't see a revolution, I see chaos, economy collapsing and the fall of tourism and loud voices that brought Egypt back to the middle-ages. I see Saudi flags flapping in my country and idiots calling for war and others cutting off an ear of a Coptic man and other violent incidents happening in front of the Egyptian army. I see Hamas invading my country, digging tunnels and the revolutionists are not closing these tunnels and ridding our land from this Hamasian invasion. It's very sad.
You are reputedly accused of defaming Muslims and Islam and in some cases you are called an extremist. How do you respond to this?
I don't defame any religion and I love all Muslims and I have Muslim friends and I have never carried a gun or bomb or incited young people to blow themselves up and kill innocent people to please their alleged God and win virgins and so on from these superstitions. I am a thinker and I use my head and my pen and I read and educate myself. The life of freedom we lead in the US made me study and read, so if studying and voicing one's opinion is extremism, then I am one.
My enemy is the God of Islam that overstepped on my legislations and my faith and said that those who believe that Jesus is the son of God are infidels and rejects the crucifixion. Islam defames women and those who believe in other religions and Jesus, glory to him, forgave people on the cross, including women, and said that who doesn't have a sin, throw the first stone.
* The Christian community in Egypt, by most estimates is between 7 and 10 million people.
BM
  


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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy



When the King of Vijaynagar fell, he had twenty thousand girls in his harem.  Given one a day, he would need about fifty five years to deflower them.  Obviously, there could not be a better congregation of  virgins than such harems.  About our beloved 'Kesto Thakur' or 'Sri Krishna' he might be just another celestial figure, e.g., a planet considered a supreme God.  His minor consorts being the stars, and major ones are indeed Sun and Moon, Radhika and Chandrabali.  His terrestrial existence has no historical evidence whatsoever.



On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:06 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Forget about the debate about what's a free-speech or hate-speech or not. Just think about the following points. When people who do not believe in a particular religion suddenly humiliate or defame religious figures of that religion - what credibility do they have? None, what so ever! It's so predictable. Trust me – people criticize other religions privately all the time; only some people sometimes go public with it. Can't we just brush it off expecting that some crazy people will do it or can we assume that they lack knowledge and perspectives and they will disseminate wrong message? When you said ShreeKrishna had hundreds of wives, I surely knew that you lack knowledge.   

 

Let me correct you from my knowledge of the epical story of ShreeKrishna. ShreeKrishna had 1600 gopies, which may be translated into 1600 girl friends. Again, it needs further perspective to understand the nature of the relationship between Krishna and gopies. Krishna left Gokul, where he had 1600 gopies, for Mathura when he was about 11 years old. Therefore, these gopies had opportunity to mingle with him only from 0 - 11 years of age. Now, you can assert whatever you want to the relationship of Krishna and 1600 gopies. When you said – Krishna had hundreds of wives, it did not surprise or bother me at all; I am sure - it will not bother other Hindus also. I knew you were not aware of the real story behind it.

 

You said this trailer movie is a crap. Why people who are rioting on the street do not understand that. If they did - they would not give such an attention or publicity to this crap movie. I was not interested in this movie at all in the beginning, but, now with this inordinate importance on the movie, my curiosity has increased thousand-fold. So far, all I know is - it's about Prophet Muhammad. I am guessing - one of the two can happen – the story is either untrue or true. If it is true – it should not bother anybody, because most people probably know it already. If it is untrue, let's tell the world what's the truth, and expose those people who tell such lies. Let's make another movie to tell the truth. In either ways, violence is not needed. However, there is a way to justify violence, and that is - if the story is true, and people want to block its propagation through violence. But, that is almost impossible to do in this day and age, when all you need to make a movie is - a video-camera and a computer or cell-phone to disseminate it throughout the world.

 

I always hear don't hurt the feelings of the Muslims if you want to stop the violence, but we hardly hear about if there are alternative ways to fight back. I believe some people are fueling the flames to use this issue for something else. In either way, it is not enhancing the image of the Muslim community around the world. That's my analysis as a bystander.

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 9/17/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 17, 2012, 3:00 PM


 
Gentlemen,

Personally I simply ignore such garbage which does not have any historical links to the characters they claim to portray. During election year, a lot of ugly things happens. It is too early to speak with any certainty about the clip.

What I know about it is it simply supported every "Typical orientalist" stereotype. In popular lingo these are known as "Hit piece" which lacks substance. Albeit I don't think this spoof of the noble messenger of God (PBUH) will do any damage to Islam or the last prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

However I am very sadden to see innocent civilians die because of such lose enforcement of "Hate speech".


Thus, it would be wrong to accuse the US government of 'allowing' this video to be circulated.

>>>>>>>>>> I think it is fair to say we knew that this kind of junk generally gets a reaction from the crowd. I am not worried about my "Honor" or even honor of my religion. Because crap will wash away in few days but this time this little stunt caused few lives!!

I have a little idea about US constitution and how it has been applied in last few hundred years. I am ALSO aware of the FACT that, US sent over 50,000 INNOCENT Japanese-American citizens to internment camps to prevent loss of lives (Of white Americans for all practical purpose). I can give you a very long list of such actions to prevent loss of innocent lives by the constitution bound US government.

I am just shocked to see that, US would risk lives of so many for a home made Amateur movie, which is probably more fitting for Saturday Night live than mainstream movie goers.

Again in the US, if you scream fire (If there is no actual fire) in the middle of a movie theater, you can be arrested for that crime ( I am 100% sure of it).  Similarly if someone makes a porn movie about Hindu goddesses and Sri Krisna, they should be arrested as well. Because without context most people will be mislead by such movie. Albeit Sri Krisna is believed to have hundreds of wives by Hindus. Just mentioning without context will give the wrong impression.

Therefore when we deal with such sensitive issues, we have to be more careful for all practical purpose. Here no one knows who made this movie. The actors claims they don't even know about this project. Does it sound or look like a "Normal" movie?

Just like US government increased security measures for "Public safety", they can monitor against abuse of "Free speech". The concept was meant to foster lively discussions, debates among people not hatred, libel, slander against innocent people.

Don't try to give me definition of "Free speech", I think we are mature enough to get past elementary discussion and go deeper.

Therefore, I am not very worried about lives of people who are protesting the movie. Most of them would love to die to show their love for the noble prophet (PBUH) but I am concerned about people who are in the middle of this mess but did not expect such mayhem. I am concerned about thousands of travelers who have to face extra level of scrutiny for this "Crap". The security department workers who have to work extra hours. At the end of the day, it will cost a lot more money to US tax payers for such horrible oversight.

Still I am certain US constitution was not meant to "protect" slander/libel against great people. Also this kind of blunder only helps so called "Communal" wings of our communities. They act as a recruiting agent for such fringe groups.

Even the maker of the movie (Who is believed to be a criminal and fraud) is not defending the movie, why should US government?

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2012 6:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy

 
I think QAR does not know the logical definition of "hate speech."
 
Most Americans, including Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and myself, who have strongly condemned the video, "Innocence of Muslims", have found it to be disgusting and distasteful. It is disgusting because it has insulted and mocked the prophet of Islam, which serves no other purpose but making the Muslims angry.
 
Making someone, or even millions of people, angry or upset does not fall in the category of "hate speech." A "hate speech" would ask people to commit one or more crimes such as killing, torturing, raping, etc. The video did not ask people to commit any such crime. That is why the maker of the video could not be prosecuted under US laws just for making and showing the video. However, the allegations of dubbing to change the words without the approval of the actors, if true, would certainly allow the actors to sue the maker of the video. Of course, any other unrelated crime, such as the bank fraud case that has been in the media, could also land the suspected maker of the video into legal hot waters.
 
While Hillary Clinton expressed her condemnation of the video, she also said, "We do not stop individual citizens from expressing their views no matter how distasteful they may be." In fact, the US constitution does not give the government the authority to stop individual citizens from expressing their views, no matter how distasteful they may be. Thus, it would be wrong to accuse the US government of 'allowing' this video to be circulated.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=================================================
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
 
As much as I abhor the u-tube "Filth" some people call a film. I do not think US government would murder it's own diplomat. Like all societies US has it's share of flaws but it also has some great qualities as a country. A per-world war ll insignificant country had some greatness in it to become what it is today. One of my uncles fought for the British Royal Air force during second world war and he told me stories of that war when I was a kid. He said even back then Americans were generous, friendly and loved humor lot more then the "British".


My wife told me yesterday – she heard that - the infamous film was funded by middle-eastern money to spark the violence against the USA.
 
>>>>>>>> So far bunch of "Middle eastern" fanatic Jews and Christians are suspect behind this very "Unique" project. It is very sad that, a hate filled film(With tons of distorted information) was "Allowed" to circulate and cause so much harm all over the world. Even in the US, free speech is protected but "HATE SPEECH" is against the law. In this digital world even America has to learn to act quickly, because I felt many "Copy cats" are working in their basements with similar projects. I also hope Muslims need to realize these are NOT work of any government. Just some very suspicious groups who work to put "hate" in as many hearts it can. Therefore, it has unmistakeably ME connection but a Jewish/Christian one. (Based on what we know until now). Shalom!

-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
 
Let me explain my problem with most of your comments, they are usually 1 – 2 liners. So, usually, we have to guess what you mean. I am glad that you clarified your political bent. I believe, most people in this forum support democratic platform. That's fine with me. Political talks in this forum is meaningless. I can give hundred reasons why I support other party, but - nobody will change their mind. Then what's the point. So, let's stay away from politics.
 
The other issue you raised is interesting. You said you are staying away from US pressure-cooker society. I am not sure what that means. As far as I know, a substantial part of your life has been spent in the USA; you received higher education here, and worked here until retirement. Now, you feel US society is a pressure-cooker, and you live outside. It will be interesting if you care to explain a bit more on this, because I also think this society is moving away from the traditional values that made this country great. I do not like what I see recently.
 
You said that USA arranged and/or sat back while Japan attacked the Pearl Harbor, so that they can bomb Japan into Stone Age. It is apparent from your statements that – you are a contrarian, and believe in the conspiracy theories. You probably also believe 9/11 was planned by George Bush administration so they can attack Afghanistan and Iraq. My wife told me yesterday – she heard that - the infamous film was funded by middle-eastern money to spark the violence against the USA. All these are a bit nutty to me, to put it mildly. Then again, what do I know about the truth? After all, human-beings are the most dangerous animals on the planet.
 
Jiten Roy
 
=======================================




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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy



Forget about the debate about what's a free-speech or hate-speech or not. Just think about the following points. When people who do not believe in a particular religion suddenly humiliate or defame religious figures of that religion - what credibility do they have? None, what so ever! It's so predictable. Trust me – people criticize other religions privately all the time; only some people sometimes go public with it. Can't we just brush it off expecting that some crazy people will do it or can we assume that they lack knowledge and perspectives and they will disseminate wrong message? When you said ShreeKrishna had hundreds of wives, I surely knew that you lack knowledge.   

 

Let me correct you from my knowledge of the epical story of ShreeKrishna. ShreeKrishna had 1600 gopies, which may be translated into 1600 girl friends. Again, it needs further perspective to understand the nature of the relationship between Krishna and gopies. Krishna left Gokul, where he had 1600 gopies, for Mathura when he was about 11 years old. Therefore, these gopies had opportunity to mingle with him only from 0 - 11 years of age. Now, you can assert whatever you want to the relationship of Krishna and 1600 gopies. When you said – Krishna had hundreds of wives, it did not surprise or bother me at all; I am sure - it will not bother other Hindus also. I knew you were not aware of the real story behind it.

 

You said this trailer movie is a crap. Why people who are rioting on the street do not understand that. If they did - they would not give such an attention or publicity to this crap movie. I was not interested in this movie at all in the beginning, but, now with this inordinate importance on the movie, my curiosity has increased thousand-fold. So far, all I know is - it's about Prophet Muhammad. I am guessing - one of the two can happen – the story is either untrue or true. If it is true – it should not bother anybody, because most people probably know it already. If it is untrue, let's tell the world what's the truth, and expose those people who tell such lies. Let's make another movie to tell the truth. In either ways, violence is not needed. However, there is a way to justify violence, and that is - if the story is true, and people want to block its propagation through violence. But, that is almost impossible to do in this day and age, when all you need to make a movie is - a video-camera and a computer or cell-phone to disseminate it throughout the world.

 

I always hear don't hurt the feelings of the Muslims if you want to stop the violence, but we hardly hear about if there are alternative ways to fight back. I believe some people are fueling the flames to use this issue for something else. In either way, it is not enhancing the image of the Muslim community around the world. That's my analysis as a bystander.

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 9/17/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:


From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 17, 2012, 3:00 PM

 
Gentlemen,

Personally I simply ignore such garbage which does not have any historical links to the characters they claim to portray. During election year, a lot of ugly things happens. It is too early to speak with any certainty about the clip.

What I know about it is it simply supported every "Typical orientalist" stereotype. In popular lingo these are known as "Hit piece" which lacks substance. Albeit I don't think this spoof of the noble messenger of God (PBUH) will do any damage to Islam or the last prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

However I am very sadden to see innocent civilians die because of such lose enforcement of "Hate speech".


Thus, it would be wrong to accuse the US government of 'allowing' this video to be circulated.

>>>>>>>>>> I think it is fair to say we knew that this kind of junk generally gets a reaction from the crowd. I am not worried about my "Honor" or even honor of my religion. Because crap will wash away in few days but this time this little stunt caused few lives!!

I have a little idea about US constitution and how it has been applied in last few hundred years. I am ALSO aware of the FACT that, US sent over 50,000 INNOCENT Japanese-American citizens to internment camps to prevent loss of lives (Of white Americans for all practical purpose). I can give you a very long list of such actions to prevent loss of innocent lives by the constitution bound US government.

I am just shocked to see that, US would risk lives of so many for a home made Amateur movie, which is probably more fitting for Saturday Night live than mainstream movie goers.

Again in the US, if you scream fire (If there is no actual fire) in the middle of a movie theater, you can be arrested for that crime ( I am 100% sure of it).  Similarly if someone makes a porn movie about Hindu goddesses and Sri Krisna, they should be arrested as well. Because without context most people will be mislead by such movie. Albeit Sri Krisna is believed to have hundreds of wives by Hindus. Just mentioning without context will give the wrong impression.

Therefore when we deal with such sensitive issues, we have to be more careful for all practical purpose. Here no one knows who made this movie. The actors claims they don't even know about this project. Does it sound or look like a "Normal" movie?

Just like US government increased security measures for "Public safety", they can monitor against abuse of "Free speech". The concept was meant to foster lively discussions, debates among people not hatred, libel, slander against innocent people.

Don't try to give me definition of "Free speech", I think we are mature enough to get past elementary discussion and go deeper.

Therefore, I am not very worried about lives of people who are protesting the movie. Most of them would love to die to show their love for the noble prophet (PBUH) but I am concerned about people who are in the middle of this mess but did not expect such mayhem. I am concerned about thousands of travelers who have to face extra level of scrutiny for this "Crap". The security department workers who have to work extra hours. At the end of the day, it will cost a lot more money to US tax payers for such horrible oversight.

Still I am certain US constitution was not meant to "protect" slander/libel against great people. Also this kind of blunder only helps so called "Communal" wings of our communities. They act as a recruiting agent for such fringe groups.

Even the maker of the movie (Who is believed to be a criminal and fraud) is not defending the movie, why should US government?

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2012 6:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy

 
I think QAR does not know the logical definition of "hate speech."
 
Most Americans, including Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and myself, who have strongly condemned the video, "Innocence of Muslims", have found it to be disgusting and distasteful. It is disgusting because it has insulted and mocked the prophet of Islam, which serves no other purpose but making the Muslims angry.
 
Making someone, or even millions of people, angry or upset does not fall in the category of "hate speech." A "hate speech" would ask people to commit one or more crimes such as killing, torturing, raping, etc. The video did not ask people to commit any such crime. That is why the maker of the video could not be prosecuted under US laws just for making and showing the video. However, the allegations of dubbing to change the words without the approval of the actors, if true, would certainly allow the actors to sue the maker of the video. Of course, any other unrelated crime, such as the bank fraud case that has been in the media, could also land the suspected maker of the video into legal hot waters.
 
While Hillary Clinton expressed her condemnation of the video, she also said, "We do not stop individual citizens from expressing their views no matter how distasteful they may be." In fact, the US constitution does not give the government the authority to stop individual citizens from expressing their views, no matter how distasteful they may be. Thus, it would be wrong to accuse the US government of 'allowing' this video to be circulated.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=================================================
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
 
As much as I abhor the u-tube "Filth" some people call a film. I do not think US government would murder it's own diplomat. Like all societies US has it's share of flaws but it also has some great qualities as a country. A per-world war ll insignificant country had some greatness in it to become what it is today. One of my uncles fought for the British Royal Air force during second world war and he told me stories of that war when I was a kid. He said even back then Americans were generous, friendly and loved humor lot more then the "British".


My wife told me yesterday – she heard that - the infamous film was funded by middle-eastern money to spark the violence against the USA.
 
>>>>>>>> So far bunch of "Middle eastern" fanatic Jews and Christians are suspect behind this very "Unique" project. It is very sad that, a hate filled film(With tons of distorted information) was "Allowed" to circulate and cause so much harm all over the world. Even in the US, free speech is protected but "HATE SPEECH" is against the law. In this digital world even America has to learn to act quickly, because I felt many "Copy cats" are working in their basements with similar projects. I also hope Muslims need to realize these are NOT work of any government. Just some very suspicious groups who work to put "hate" in as many hearts it can. Therefore, it has unmistakeably ME connection but a Jewish/Christian one. (Based on what we know until now). Shalom!

-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
 
Let me explain my problem with most of your comments, they are usually 1 – 2 liners. So, usually, we have to guess what you mean. I am glad that you clarified your political bent. I believe, most people in this forum support democratic platform. That's fine with me. Political talks in this forum is meaningless. I can give hundred reasons why I support other party, but - nobody will change their mind. Then what's the point. So, let's stay away from politics.
 
The other issue you raised is interesting. You said you are staying away from US pressure-cooker society. I am not sure what that means. As far as I know, a substantial part of your life has been spent in the USA; you received higher education here, and worked here until retirement. Now, you feel US society is a pressure-cooker, and you live outside. It will be interesting if you care to explain a bit more on this, because I also think this society is moving away from the traditional values that made this country great. I do not like what I see recently.
 
You said that USA arranged and/or sat back while Japan attacked the Pearl Harbor, so that they can bomb Japan into Stone Age. It is apparent from your statements that – you are a contrarian, and believe in the conspiracy theories. You probably also believe 9/11 was planned by George Bush administration so they can attack Afghanistan and Iraq. My wife told me yesterday – she heard that - the infamous film was funded by middle-eastern money to spark the violence against the USA. All these are a bit nutty to me, to put it mildly. Then again, what do I know about the truth? After all, human-beings are the most dangerous animals on the planet.
 
Jiten Roy
 
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[mukto-mona] RE: [ History Islam & Beyond . . .] GREAT FAMOUS PEOPLE WHO CONVER TED TO ISLAM



          So far, judging from adorer jamai Mohish (and his shwashur-kul)'s own innumerable posts over the years, 'love of religion' and happiness of being a Muslim consisted of inordinate admiration for blood and gore of mass murder (Genocide 1971) of people -- mostly of fellow Muslims --mass assassination of Muslim (some Hindu) political leaders--including a Muslim man and his family which had a minor boy and a pregnant daughter-in-law -- organized mass rape of thousands and thousands of women-- and looting and setting fire to non-combattant unarmed civilians (both Hindus and Muslims).  For family entertainment, Mohish, the happy Muslim man, even watches the barbaric event in the Land of Jahiliya of public beheading of fellow Muslims accompanied by his minor children.  And the carnage had continued all through the 41 years of Bangladesh.

                 May Allah subha na t'ala, the All-seeing and All-hearing take due cognizance of sinners like this Mohish and his likes!


Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:38:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Fw: [ History Islam & Beyond . . .] GREAT FAMOUS PEOPLE WHO CONVER TED TO ISLAM
From: shahdeeldar@gmail.com
To: mohiuddin@netzero.net
CC: akhtergolam@gmail.com; sonarbangladesh@yahoogroups.com; dahuk@yahoogroups.com; syed.aslam3@gmail.com; jnrsr53@yahoo.com; subimal@yahoo.com; farida_majid@hotmail.com; farid2002hossain@hotmail.com; guhasb@gmail.com; srbanunz@gmail.com; captchowdhury@yahoo.ca; mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com

It does not tickle me at all, bro. Just grow up and do Allah's work if you care. Allah does not care who is converting and who is not. I do not need to remind you that not all Muslims are equals in the eyes of Saudis or other Arabs. You will still remain a Miskin Bangladeshi no matter how many times you pray per day. The whole thing has become a bad addiction. Muslims are not the only people, who live on this earth. Live and let others live! Thank you.
-SD

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Mohiuddin Anwar <mohiuddin@netzero.net> wrote:
Ms. Shah Deelder,
 
As a beliver of Islam(I believe you are a Muslim)you must be happy to hear that,  so many non-muslims converting to Islam, instead you were not happy.Beside singers and sportsmens lot of intellectuals converted to Islam in the past.
Why ? Don't you love your religion ?
 


---------- Original Message ----------
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com>
To: Mohiuddin Anwar <mohiuddin@netzero.net>
Cc: syed.aslam3@gmail.com, akhtergolam@gmail.com, jnrsr53@yahoo.com,  subimal@yahoo.com, farida_majid@hotmail.com, farid2002hossain@hotmail.com,  guhasb@gmail.com, srbanunz@gmail.com, captchowdhury@yahoo.ca,  mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com, sonarbangladesh@yahoogroups.com,  dahuk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Fw: [ History Islam & Beyond . . .] GREAT FAMOUS PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 09:33:58 -0400

So what? What is there to beat your chest about? The right question would be how many of these new converts (mostly blacks) would ever bring� you a Nobel prize? Does Islam need more song and dance from these notorieties? Grow up, bud! There is nothing to gloat about making another black or white man a new convert.� It is very childish and immature!
-SD

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Mohiuddin Anwar <mohiuddin@netzero.net> wrote:


---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: Amer Aleem <ameraleem@yahoo.com>
To: Amer Aleem <ameraleem@yahoo.com>
Subject: [ History Islam & Beyond . . .] GREAT FAMOUS PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT)


���������������������������������������������52 Great Famous People Who Converted To Islam

52 Great Famous People Who Converted To Islam 2011-2012 [HD]













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--
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS


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[mukto-mona] FwS - Morris Sadek---My enemy is the God of Islam





My enemy is the God of Islam that overstepped on my legislations and my faith and said that those who believe that Jesus is the son of God are infidels and rejects the crucifixion.

 
 >>>>>>>> Free speech or hate speech?

Shalom!
==========================================================================
 
 

Morris Sadek: "My enemy is the God of Islam"

| 18 September 2011 | 3 Comments
 
Morris Sadek is one of the most hated men in Egypt.hated
 
CAIRO: Morris Sadek, one of the most hated men in Egypt. A controversial figure for his fiery statements against Islam and Muslims and for his demands of international protection on Egypt's Coptic minority.
His name was recently mentioned in the declaration of the symbolic Coptic state in the United States. He conducted a number of talks and meetings with Congressional representatives, asking for US intervention in Egypt.
As a result of his work, his Egyptian citizenship has been withdrawn. He denounces the Egyptian and Arab uprisings and supports the Bashar al-Asaad regime in Syria.
Sadek lives with his family in the US as a religious refugee.
Bikyamasr.com interviewed Sadek via email.
 
First, you protested outside the White House to force international protection over Egypt?
International protection means forming a legal plan that goes along with the United Nations' international declaration for minorities and presenting it to the Egyptian government to be applied. Egypt uses foreign referees for its football matches and thus accepts. Egypt sent troops to Kosovo to protect the Muslim minority there. Therefore we are persing a decision by Congress to protect Copts after they have been slaughtered, blown to pieces outside of their churches, their daughter's kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam, their houses of worship set on fire, and complicating the procedures to build new ones, adding to that a complicit legal system that slacks in investigating crimes committed against Copts as well as excluding them from government jobs and not putting a quota for Copts in the parliament and insisting that Islam is the religion of the State and ignoring *25 million people who believe in Christianity and having the Arabic language, the language of the invaders, as the official language and *ignoring the Coptic language.
Muslims insist on keeping Sharia, or Islamic law, as a source of legislation and Copts refuse things such as cutting a thief's hand and whippings. It [Sharia] also diminishes women and considers them cursed and unclean. Therefore, we want an American envoy to make sure that the following happens in Egypt:
Enhancing religious freedoms for minorities such as Copts, Baha'is and Shiites. Also, to monitor religious prejudices, provide social and economic security and to work with the government to prevent laws that lean towards religious prejudices.
News reports were talking about the declaration of a Coptic state in the US, please shed light on that and did you ask people to immigrate and join you?
The idea of a Coptic State came after the March referendum that approved keeping Sharia as the main source of legislation, ignoring the Coptic people who reject Islam and Sharia and the idea behind establishing a Coptic state in Egypt is to have Coptic courts; they were cancelled by former president Gamal Abdul Nasser in 1956; Coptic religious schools and universities like al-Azhar; involving Copts in all governmental institutions with a percentage not less than 25 percent, including the police academy and the army and perhaps establishing a parallel Coptic Government working hand in hand with the central government to protect Copts rights.
Egyptian Copts have welcomed the idea of a Coptic state in Egypt, and as for the ignorant Copts, agents of the Arabic invasion who disagree with us, I can say we despise you and Muslims who refuse it are afraid that Copts will be masters in their own country, therefore Muslims' opinions have no weight internationally. We are not asking for immigration or division, we only ask for the sharing of power and the founders of the Coptic nation are working on taking the next constitutional and legal steps necessary. We have already chosen the flag and the national anthem.
Your Egyptian nationality has been recently withdrawn, how did you feel about that and will you fight the decision?
I felt I was hit by lighting when I heard the news. The Egyptian nationality is my flesh and bones and the bones and the graves of my ancestors are in Egypt. Nationality is not just a piece of paper and I defend my Coptic community's rights in Egypt and my weapons are words. I have repeatedly attacked former president Hosni Mubarak and prayed to God to revenge us yet he didn't withdraw my citizenship. The current ruling power, the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, had caused a scandal upon itself after many American newspapers reported the news that I lost my citizenship because of my opinions. The British never did it, but the Arab invaders did. However, I am fighting the decision and presented an appeal in front of the high administrative court.
What do you say to those accusing you of trading the Coptic cause for personal gain and fame?
I am a law man. I have a license to practice law from Egypt and a consulting license from the US and wrote many legal books that high courts in Egypt read and consult. These books will give me enduring fame, but I don't need fame because it doesn't help and as for financial issues, I have started a human rights organization in Egypt and have refused American funds before and all I ask for is freedom for my people.
You have declared your support to the Syrian regime and President Bashar al-Asad. Why?
Al-Assad is facing the Muslim Brotherhood and other terrorist groups killing in the name of Allah, therefore he is fighting them and in Egypt we faced the same threats before and fought against it.
Asaad didn't kill Christians or Muslims and never burned a church or bomb a car parked in front of one. There are many Christian ministers and ambassadors in Syria and Muslims and Christians are given equal employment and Christians could open a church without permission and if Asaad's regime is gone, so will the Syrian Christians, like what happened to the Copts in Egypt. This is ultimately what Saudi Arabia and Qatar wants. They were behind the uprisings in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya so the Muslim Brotherhood gain power all over the Middle East.
So this is how you view the Egyptian revolution?
I don't see a revolution, I see chaos, economy collapsing and the fall of tourism and loud voices that brought Egypt back to the middle-ages. I see Saudi flags flapping in my country and idiots calling for war and others cutting off an ear of a Coptic man and other violent incidents happening in front of the Egyptian army. I see Hamas invading my country, digging tunnels and the revolutionists are not closing these tunnels and ridding our land from this Hamasian invasion. It's very sad.
You are reputedly accused of defaming Muslims and Islam and in some cases you are called an extremist. How do you respond to this?
I don't defame any religion and I love all Muslims and I have Muslim friends and I have never carried a gun or bomb or incited young people to blow themselves up and kill innocent people to please their alleged God and win virgins and so on from these superstitions. I am a thinker and I use my head and my pen and I read and educate myself. The life of freedom we lead in the US made me study and read, so if studying and voicing one's opinion is extremism, then I am one.
My enemy is the God of Islam that overstepped on my legislations and my faith and said that those who believe that Jesus is the son of God are infidels and rejects the crucifixion. Islam defames women and those who believe in other religions and Jesus, glory to him, forgave people on the cross, including women, and said that who doesn't have a sin, throw the first stone.
* The Christian community in Egypt, by most estimates is between 7 and 10 million people.
BM
  


.



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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy



Gentlemen,

Personally I simply ignore such garbage which does not have any historical links to the characters they claim to portray. During election year, a lot of ugly things happens. It is too early to speak with any certainty about the clip.

What I know about it is it simply supported every "Typical orientalist" stereotype. In popular lingo these are known as "Hit piece" which lacks substance. Albeit I don't think this spoof of the noble messenger of God (PBUH) will do any damage to Islam or the last prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

However I am very sadden to see innocent civilians die because of such lose enforcement of "Hate speech".


Thus, it would be wrong to accuse the US government of 'allowing' this video to be circulated.

>>>>>>>>>> I think it is fair to say we knew that this kind of junk generally gets a reaction from the crowd. I am not worried about my "Honor" or even honor of my religion. Because crap will wash away in few days but this time this little stunt caused few lives!!

I have a little idea about US constitution and how it has been applied in last few hundred years. I am ALSO aware of the FACT that, US sent over 50,000 INNOCENT Japanese-American citizens to internment camps to prevent loss of lives (Of white Americans for all practical purpose). I can give you a very long list of such actions to prevent loss of innocent lives by the constitution bound US government.

I am just shocked to see that, US would risk lives of so many for a home made Amateur movie, which is probably more fitting for Saturday Night live than mainstream movie goers.

Again in the US, if you scream fire (If there is no actual fire) in the middle of a movie theater, you can be arrested for that crime ( I am 100% sure of it).  Similarly if someone makes a porn movie about Hindu goddesses and Sri Krisna, they should be arrested as well. Because without context most people will be mislead by such movie. Albeit Sri Krisna is believed to have hundreds of wives by Hindus. Just mentioning without context will give the wrong impression.

Therefore when we deal with such sensitive issues, we have to be more careful for all practical purpose. Here no one knows who made this movie. The actors claims they don't even know about this project. Does it sound or look like a "Normal" movie?

Just like US government increased security measures for "Public safety", they can monitor against abuse of "Free speech". The concept was meant to foster lively discussions, debates among people not hatred, libel, slander against innocent people.

Don't try to give me definition of "Free speech", I think we are mature enough to get past elementary discussion and go deeper.

Therefore, I am not very worried about lives of people who are protesting the movie. Most of them would love to die to show their love for the noble prophet (PBUH) but I am concerned about people who are in the middle of this mess but did not expect such mayhem. I am concerned about thousands of travelers who have to face extra level of scrutiny for this "Crap". The security department workers who have to work extra hours. At the end of the day, it will cost a lot more money to US tax payers for such horrible oversight.

Still I am certain US constitution was not meant to "protect" slander/libel against great people. Also this kind of blunder only helps so called "Communal" wings of our communities. They act as a recruiting agent for such fringe groups.

Even the maker of the movie (Who is believed to be a criminal and fraud) is not defending the movie, why should US government?

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2012 6:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy

 
I think QAR does not know the logical definition of "hate speech."
 
Most Americans, including Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and myself, who have strongly condemned the video, "Innocence of Muslims", have found it to be disgusting and distasteful. It is disgusting because it has insulted and mocked the prophet of Islam, which serves no other purpose but making the Muslims angry.
 
Making someone, or even millions of people, angry or upset does not fall in the category of "hate speech." A "hate speech" would ask people to commit one or more crimes such as killing, torturing, raping, etc. The video did not ask people to commit any such crime. That is why the maker of the video could not be prosecuted under US laws just for making and showing the video. However, the allegations of dubbing to change the words without the approval of the actors, if true, would certainly allow the actors to sue the maker of the video. Of course, any other unrelated crime, such as the bank fraud case that has been in the media, could also land the suspected maker of the video into legal hot waters.
 
While Hillary Clinton expressed her condemnation of the video, she also said, "We do not stop individual citizens from expressing their views no matter how distasteful they may be." In fact, the US constitution does not give the government the authority to stop individual citizens from expressing their views, no matter how distasteful they may be. Thus, it would be wrong to accuse the US government of 'allowing' this video to be circulated.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=================================================
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
 
As much as I abhor the u-tube "Filth" some people call a film. I do not think US government would murder it's own diplomat. Like all societies US has it's share of flaws but it also has some great qualities as a country. A per-world war ll insignificant country had some greatness in it to become what it is today. One of my uncles fought for the British Royal Air force during second world war and he told me stories of that war when I was a kid. He said even back then Americans were generous, friendly and loved humor lot more then the "British".


My wife told me yesterday – she heard that - the infamous film was funded by middle-eastern money to spark the violence against the USA.
 
>>>>>>>> So far bunch of "Middle eastern" fanatic Jews and Christians are suspect behind this very "Unique" project. It is very sad that, a hate filled film(With tons of distorted information) was "Allowed" to circulate and cause so much harm all over the world. Even in the US, free speech is protected but "HATE SPEECH" is against the law. In this digital world even America has to learn to act quickly, because I felt many "Copy cats" are working in their basements with similar projects. I also hope Muslims need to realize these are NOT work of any government. Just some very suspicious groups who work to put "hate" in as many hearts it can. Therefore, it has unmistakeably ME connection but a Jewish/Christian one. (Based on what we know until now). Shalom!

-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
 
Let me explain my problem with most of your comments, they are usually 1 – 2 liners. So, usually, we have to guess what you mean. I am glad that you clarified your political bent. I believe, most people in this forum support democratic platform. That's fine with me. Political talks in this forum is meaningless. I can give hundred reasons why I support other party, but - nobody will change their mind. Then what's the point. So, let's stay away from politics.
 
The other issue you raised is interesting. You said you are staying away from US pressure-cooker society. I am not sure what that means. As far as I know, a substantial part of your life has been spent in the USA; you received higher education here, and worked here until retirement. Now, you feel US society is a pressure-cooker, and you live outside. It will be interesting if you care to explain a bit more on this, because I also think this society is moving away from the traditional values that made this country great. I do not like what I see recently.
 
You said that USA arranged and/or sat back while Japan attacked the Pearl Harbor, so that they can bomb Japan into Stone Age. It is apparent from your statements that – you are a contrarian, and believe in the conspiracy theories. You probably also believe 9/11 was planned by George Bush administration so they can attack Afghanistan and Iraq. My wife told me yesterday – she heard that - the infamous film was funded by middle-eastern money to spark the violence against the USA. All these are a bit nutty to me, to put it mildly. Then again, what do I know about the truth? After all, human-beings are the most dangerous animals on the planet.
 
Jiten Roy
 
=======================================


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