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Wednesday, October 5, 2016

[mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} Forum Discipline // PFC-Friends



SHAH DE ELDER IS THE ABUSER

In this thread we are particularly drawing the attention of the moderator to a fake ID user named Shah De Elder who uses a fake name and instead of using arguments to defend his position, he is pretty abusive to the forum members. 

Personally, it doesn't bother me to have discussions about religions because good arguments can make issues colorful and they can even help us overcoming superstitions and prejudices. Having said this, many of us are familiar with some individuals who use their real names but has been promoting their earthly lord's dictates in different forums for years to bring changes in mundane matters. I normally avoid them and it helps but Shah De Elder is the abuser. He should be strongly recommended to use his real name ( or at least submit his identity to the moderator) or be removed from the forum..


On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Shah DeEldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, you have said it so much better. People who would like to set up their own specific agendas, are free to form their own secluded group and be happy with it.  Nobody will force them to play ball with others if they do not feel for it. But these sensitive souls should not force other forum participants to conform to their wishes. That is simply not right.


On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 8:49 PM, 'mahfuzur@aol.com' via Bangladesh Progressives <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I am not even sure that I belong to the PFC-Friends. My posts often seem not to reach its members, something the moderator might look into. Still, allow me to say a few words on a subject you have been talking about over the last few days. There is much in the current discussions that is reasonable. But  It is necessary to look beneath it all. Personally, I rank decency in the use of language among the virtues of decent men and women. But we cannot stop at that. Consider the following sentences from one of the contributors of the debate, or should I say quarrel, which I have borrowed from this thread of exchanges.
          
                        I fully support what you said, Mr. Khan. No personal attacks, no foul language, no attack on any faith. Especially, faith is a very                                 sensitive matter. It should be left to an individual to choose what he wants to follow. If one prefers to remain an atheist or non-                              conformist but that should not be one's licence to attack other's faith.  
                    It may also be preferable that we do not propagate or promote an alien agenda that is contrary to the interest of Bangladesh 
                   anaspirations of its people. 

    The statement implores members of the group not to attack "on any faith." But how do you define "attack"? There is no universally acceptable definition of attack in a debate, even when only decent language is used. But look at the next sentence in the text above and we get closer to the meaning of the word "attack" used here. Faith is a "very sensitive matter," we are told, and should not be touched. Indeed "hurting the religious sentiment" has been taboo in our society, and breaking it can nowadays sent the perpetrator to jail or worse fate. So, must we not hurt such sentiments ? If the answer is no, it has serious implications for freedom. Freedom curtailed is freedom destroyed and the ethos of a modern society goes against such curtailment. Moreover, modern history shows that mankind has made progress towards greater freedom largely by actually hurting orthodox religious sentiments. The history of Enlightenment in Europe shows this. Voltaire is a great example here. He had to flee France in the aftermath of his scathing "attack " on the church. Ultimately freedom won. 
     Note also that the author of the above paragraph suggests that atheist or non-conformists should not think that they have licence to attack others' faith. Apart from the difficulty of defining "attack", does it suggest that the "Others" can, on the other hand, attack the atheist with impunity? The latter in fact is the rule of the game, worked out and enforced in Bangladeshi society today. 
     And, finally, who defines " alien agenda"? By such blanket term, one can imply a whole lot of things. It is therefore unhelpful to talk in these terms.
     All of the above considerations are important. Merely focusing on "discipline" will be like shoving them under the carpet.

Mahfuzur Rahman    
    
    


-----Original Message-----
From: Shah DeEldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com>
To: Khurshed Chowdhury <chowdhuryk@gmail.com>
Cc: pfc-friends <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>; bangladesh-progressives googlegroups <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>; mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; mahbubkhan@ieee.org <mahbubkhan35@hotmail.com>; aishams567 <aishams567@yahoo.com>; Mohammed Amirul Islam <aislam65@hotmail.com>; MBI Munshi <mbimunshi@gmail.com>; AbidBahar PostCard <abahar.canada@gmail.com>; Muazzam Kazi <kazi4986@yahoo.com>; Capt Hossain <atlanticmarinecanada@gmail.com>; Sameer Syed <amsmel@aol.com>; S Akhter <sakhter1015@gmail.com>; Zoglul Zoglul <zoglul@hotmail.co.uk>; Mohammad Gani <mgani69@gmail.com>; rashed Anam <rashedanam1971@gmail.com>; Azad Khan <azadcop@yahoo.com>; Isha Khan <bdmailer@gmail.com>; Jalal Uddin Khan <jukhan@gmail.com>; Mohamed Nazir <nazir0101@gmail.com>; Msa40 <msa40@aol.com>; Sitangshu Guha <guhasb@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Oct 5, 2016 4:42 pm
Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} Forum Discipline // PFC-Friends

Thank you. Forum moderators should know that... it is the contributors that make a forum vibrant, articulate and enlightening. If we start agreeing with everybody and sing Kumbaya song, that would bore people to death. There will be some heated discussions but that is all good for a forum. If a religious practice is questioned, why can't people write an intelligent response? The members are not really illiterates but got degrees from universities? What are they afraid of? Loosing face to opposing sides? If people are questioning about everything, why should religion be beyond any critic? Is it so fragile that our mere words would destroy a God/Gods? I find the argument is silly very comical.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Khurshed Chowdhury <chowdhuryk@gmail.com> wrote:
"People who have been complaining are no saints. Once, people started giving back with overwhelming force and rhetoric, all hell has broken loose. These actors can attack, lie and demean anybody's  integrity and religious or no-religious indoctrination. And, that is perfectly legit because they belong to some special God loving group? If moderators want to be fair, he/she should not muzzle one group but let others to post whatever they please. That would be called favoritism. People who are complaining, should show the way what is good and what is not? Writing nothing but complaining about the content is not the way. If subject Islam is a taboo and beyond anybody's question, then the same rule should be applied to Hindu, Buddhists, Christianity, Judaism and others too. Alternatively, the forum should be declared as an Islamic property and ban others, who do not conform to the religious rule. I will have no problem with such new decree. I am on many forums including Mukto-mona, Bangladesh-progressives, Disqus, Tweeter and many others. I spar with thousands people everyday. I am a free spirit and I have no intention to stick around where democracy would not be respected. Thank you."
 
Dear All:
 
I do agree with almost everything said by Mr. DeEldar above.  I would like to know what is the definition of "Criticism"? We have been discussing about Islam, about the true face of Islam, and nothing I could find as Criticism here. Lately, another very important issue (Kurbani in Islam) has been brought by our honorable Dr. Mahfuzur Rahman which needs vigorous discussions in order to establish the truth about Kurbani! We may soon start that issue also to discuss. I don't think by opening the true face of any subject is called: Criticism! Please correct me if I am wrong!  Thanks.
 
 
KAC
 
 
 
From: Shah DeEldar [mailto:shahdeeldar@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:10 AM
To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com; bangladesh-progressives googlegroups; mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com; mahbubkhan@ieee.org
Cc: aishams567@yahoo.com; aislam65@hotmail.com; mbimunshi@gmail.com; AbidBahar PostCard; Muazzam Kazi; Capt Hossain; Sameer Syed; S Akhter; Zoglul Zoglul; Mohammad Gani; rashed Anam; Azad Khan; Isha Khan; Jalal Uddin Khan; Mohamed Nazir; Msa40; Sitangshu Guha; Khurshed Chowdhury

Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} Forum Discipline // PFC-Friends
 
People who have been complaining are no saints. Once, people started giving back with overwhelming force and rhetoric, all hell has broken loose. These actors can attack, lie and demean anybody's  integrity and religious or no-religious indoctrination. And, that is perfectly legit because they belong to some special God loving group? If moderators want to be fair, he/she should not muzzle one group but let others to post whatever they please. That would be called favoritism. People who are complaining, should show the way what is good and what is not? Writing nothing but complaining about the content is not the way. If subject Islam is a taboo and beyond anybody's question, then the same rule should be applied to Hindu, Buddhists, Christianity, Judaism and others too. Alternatively, the forum should be declared as an Islamic property and ban others, who do not conform to the religious rule. I will have no problem with such new decree. I am on many forums including Mukto-mona, Bangladesh-progressives, Disqus, Tweeter and many others. I spar with thousands people everyday. I am a free spirit and I have no intention to stick around where democracy would not be respected. Thank you.  
 
On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:07 AM, mahbubkhan@ieee.org <mahbubkhan35@hotmail.com> wrote:
In this open and very active forum of this magnitude and diversity where the participants are located worldwide including the USA, Bangladesh, Canada, Australia, Asia, Europe etc, with many very thoughtful and talented people in this PFC-Friends Forum, it is easier if we focus on the messages rather than the messangers. There have been requests not to make any personal attacks or to use any vulger words or phrases in this discussion forum. There have also been requests not to attack the religion of Islam in particular and other religions in general, and that is because it appears to be a cheap way to try to win an argument or to show the wisdom. There are many other good topics that can be discussed by thoughtful and talented people with sound logic but without vulgarity. It is highly expected that the respected membership of this very active global forum will maintain mutual respect and civility while discussion continues through sound logic on many good topics. With best regards.
 

From: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Salim Rashid <srashid17@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 3:00 AM
To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com
Cc: aishams567@yahoo.com; aislam65@hotmail.com; mbimunshi@gmail.com; AbidBahar PostCard; Muazzam Kazi; Capt Hossain; Sameer Syed; S Akhter; Zoglul Zoglul; Mohammad Gani; rashed Anam; Azad Khan; Isha Khan; Jalal Uddin Khan; Mohamed Nazir
Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} the value of discourse
 
Much as I enjoy some of the postings and feel provoked by others, I cannot continue to belong to it as long as one of the most prolific contributors is pseudonymous.
My request to the moderator: either assure me that you know the identity of all contributors and that some individuals have good reason to be 'unknown', or please remove me from this list.
Thanks and Khuda hafiz
Salim
 
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 1:40 AM, 'javed helali' via PFC-Friends <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Well said. That's how it should be.
 
Javed Helali
 

From: Salim Rashid <srashid17@gmail.com>
To: "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "aishams567@yahoo.com" <aishams567@yahoo.com>; "aislam65@hotmail.com" <aislam65@hotmail.com>; "mbimunshi@gmail.com" <mbimunshi@gmail.com>; AbidBahar PostCard <abahar.canada@gmail.com>; Muazzam Kazi <kazi4986@yahoo.com>; Capt Hossain <atlanticmarinecanada@gmail.com>; Sameer Syed <amsmel@aol.com>; S Akhter <sakhter1015@gmail.com>; Zoglul Zoglul <zoglul@hotmail.co.uk>; Mohammad Gani <mgani69@gmail.com>; rashed Anam <rashedanam1971@gmail.com>; Azad Khan <azadcop@yahoo.com>; Isha Khan <bdmailer@gmail.com>; Jalal Uddin Khan <jukhan@gmail.com>; Mohamed Nazir <nazir0101@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 8:27 PM
Subject: {PFC-Friends} the value of discourse
 
The recent, specific, claims that someone or some people are sending messages under pseudonyms is disturbing. The language has sometimes become insulting and vulgar, despite several requests to the contrary. This prevents discourse, which is the main value of such a forum. I wish I knew how to stop the exchange at sarcasm and the occasional barb.
However, if someone really fears retaliation for participating in this forum, perhaps they should leave? and if they stay, why use a false name? anyone who posts has to provide the moderator with a definite identity.
Can the moderator please take a stand, one way or another?
 
 
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Professor of Economics, Emeritus
University of Illinois
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[mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} Forum Discipline // PFC-Friends



Well, you have said it so much better. People who would like to set up their own specific agendas, are free to form their own secluded group and be happy with it.  Nobody will force them to play ball with others if they do not feel for it. But these sensitive souls should not force other forum participants to conform to their wishes. That is simply not right.


On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 8:49 PM, 'mahfuzur@aol.com' via Bangladesh Progressives <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I am not even sure that I belong to the PFC-Friends. My posts often seem not to reach its members, something the moderator might look into. Still, allow me to say a few words on a subject you have been talking about over the last few days. There is much in the current discussions that is reasonable. But  It is necessary to look beneath it all. Personally, I rank decency in the use of language among the virtues of decent men and women. But we cannot stop at that. Consider the following sentences from one of the contributors of the debate, or should I say quarrel, which I have borrowed from this thread of exchanges.
          
                        I fully support what you said, Mr. Khan. No personal attacks, no foul language, no attack on any faith. Especially, faith is a very                                 sensitive matter. It should be left to an individual to choose what he wants to follow. If one prefers to remain an atheist or non-                              conformist but that should not be one's licence to attack other's faith.  
                    It may also be preferable that we do not propagate or promote an alien agenda that is contrary to the interest of Bangladesh 
                   anaspirations of its people. 

    The statement implores members of the group not to attack "on any faith." But how do you define "attack"? There is no universally acceptable definition of attack in a debate, even when only decent language is used. But look at the next sentence in the text above and we get closer to the meaning of the word "attack" used here. Faith is a "very sensitive matter," we are told, and should not be touched. Indeed "hurting the religious sentiment" has been taboo in our society, and breaking it can nowadays sent the perpetrator to jail or worse fate. So, must we not hurt such sentiments ? If the answer is no, it has serious implications for freedom. Freedom curtailed is freedom destroyed and the ethos of a modern society goes against such curtailment. Moreover, modern history shows that mankind has made progress towards greater freedom largely by actually hurting orthodox religious sentiments. The history of Enlightenment in Europe shows this. Voltaire is a great example here. He had to flee France in the aftermath of his scathing "attack " on the church. Ultimately freedom won. 
     Note also that the author of the above paragraph suggests that atheist or non-conformists should not think that they have licence to attack others' faith. Apart from the difficulty of defining "attack", does it suggest that the "Others" can, on the other hand, attack the atheist with impunity? The latter in fact is the rule of the game, worked out and enforced in Bangladeshi society today. 
     And, finally, who defines " alien agenda"? By such blanket term, one can imply a whole lot of things. It is therefore unhelpful to talk in these terms.
     All of the above considerations are important. Merely focusing on "discipline" will be like shoving them under the carpet.

Mahfuzur Rahman    
    
    


-----Original Message-----
From: Shah DeEldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com>
To: Khurshed Chowdhury <chowdhuryk@gmail.com>
Cc: pfc-friends <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>; bangladesh-progressives googlegroups <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>; mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; mahbubkhan@ieee.org <mahbubkhan35@hotmail.com>; aishams567 <aishams567@yahoo.com>; Mohammed Amirul Islam <aislam65@hotmail.com>; MBI Munshi <mbimunshi@gmail.com>; AbidBahar PostCard <abahar.canada@gmail.com>; Muazzam Kazi <kazi4986@yahoo.com>; Capt Hossain <atlanticmarinecanada@gmail.com>; Sameer Syed <amsmel@aol.com>; S Akhter <sakhter1015@gmail.com>; Zoglul Zoglul <zoglul@hotmail.co.uk>; Mohammad Gani <mgani69@gmail.com>; rashed Anam <rashedanam1971@gmail.com>; Azad Khan <azadcop@yahoo.com>; Isha Khan <bdmailer@gmail.com>; Jalal Uddin Khan <jukhan@gmail.com>; Mohamed Nazir <nazir0101@gmail.com>; Msa40 <msa40@aol.com>; Sitangshu Guha <guhasb@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Oct 5, 2016 4:42 pm
Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} Forum Discipline // PFC-Friends

Thank you. Forum moderators should know that... it is the contributors that make a forum vibrant, articulate and enlightening. If we start agreeing with everybody and sing Kumbaya song, that would bore people to death. There will be some heated discussions but that is all good for a forum. If a religious practice is questioned, why can't people write an intelligent response? The members are not really illiterates but got degrees from universities? What are they afraid of? Loosing face to opposing sides? If people are questioning about everything, why should religion be beyond any critic? Is it so fragile that our mere words would destroy a God/Gods? I find the argument is silly very comical.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Khurshed Chowdhury <chowdhuryk@gmail.com> wrote:
"People who have been complaining are no saints. Once, people started giving back with overwhelming force and rhetoric, all hell has broken loose. These actors can attack, lie and demean anybody's  integrity and religious or no-religious indoctrination. And, that is perfectly legit because they belong to some special God loving group? If moderators want to be fair, he/she should not muzzle one group but let others to post whatever they please. That would be called favoritism. People who are complaining, should show the way what is good and what is not? Writing nothing but complaining about the content is not the way. If subject Islam is a taboo and beyond anybody's question, then the same rule should be applied to Hindu, Buddhists, Christianity, Judaism and others too. Alternatively, the forum should be declared as an Islamic property and ban others, who do not conform to the religious rule. I will have no problem with such new decree. I am on many forums including Mukto-mona, Bangladesh-progressives, Disqus, Tweeter and many others. I spar with thousands people everyday. I am a free spirit and I have no intention to stick around where democracy would not be respected. Thank you."
 
Dear All:
 
I do agree with almost everything said by Mr. DeEldar above.  I would like to know what is the definition of "Criticism"? We have been discussing about Islam, about the true face of Islam, and nothing I could find as Criticism here. Lately, another very important issue (Kurbani in Islam) has been brought by our honorable Dr. Mahfuzur Rahman which needs vigorous discussions in order to establish the truth about Kurbani! We may soon start that issue also to discuss. I don't think by opening the true face of any subject is called: Criticism! Please correct me if I am wrong!  Thanks.
 
 
KAC
 
 
 
From: Shah DeEldar [mailto:shahdeeldar@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:10 AM
To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com; bangladesh-progressives googlegroups; mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com; mahbubkhan@ieee.org
Cc: aishams567@yahoo.com; aislam65@hotmail.com; mbimunshi@gmail.com; AbidBahar PostCard; Muazzam Kazi; Capt Hossain; Sameer Syed; S Akhter; Zoglul Zoglul; Mohammad Gani; rashed Anam; Azad Khan; Isha Khan; Jalal Uddin Khan; Mohamed Nazir; Msa40; Sitangshu Guha; Khurshed Chowdhury

Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} Forum Discipline // PFC-Friends
 
People who have been complaining are no saints. Once, people started giving back with overwhelming force and rhetoric, all hell has broken loose. These actors can attack, lie and demean anybody's  integrity and religious or no-religious indoctrination. And, that is perfectly legit because they belong to some special God loving group? If moderators want to be fair, he/she should not muzzle one group but let others to post whatever they please. That would be called favoritism. People who are complaining, should show the way what is good and what is not? Writing nothing but complaining about the content is not the way. If subject Islam is a taboo and beyond anybody's question, then the same rule should be applied to Hindu, Buddhists, Christianity, Judaism and others too. Alternatively, the forum should be declared as an Islamic property and ban others, who do not conform to the religious rule. I will have no problem with such new decree. I am on many forums including Mukto-mona, Bangladesh-progressives, Disqus, Tweeter and many others. I spar with thousands people everyday. I am a free spirit and I have no intention to stick around where democracy would not be respected. Thank you.  
 
On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:07 AM, mahbubkhan@ieee.org <mahbubkhan35@hotmail.com> wrote:
In this open and very active forum of this magnitude and diversity where the participants are located worldwide including the USA, Bangladesh, Canada, Australia, Asia, Europe etc, with many very thoughtful and talented people in this PFC-Friends Forum, it is easier if we focus on the messages rather than the messangers. There have been requests not to make any personal attacks or to use any vulger words or phrases in this discussion forum. There have also been requests not to attack the religion of Islam in particular and other religions in general, and that is because it appears to be a cheap way to try to win an argument or to show the wisdom. There are many other good topics that can be discussed by thoughtful and talented people with sound logic but without vulgarity. It is highly expected that the respected membership of this very active global forum will maintain mutual respect and civility while discussion continues through sound logic on many good topics. With best regards.
 

From: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Salim Rashid <srashid17@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 3:00 AM
To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com
Cc: aishams567@yahoo.com; aislam65@hotmail.com; mbimunshi@gmail.com; AbidBahar PostCard; Muazzam Kazi; Capt Hossain; Sameer Syed; S Akhter; Zoglul Zoglul; Mohammad Gani; rashed Anam; Azad Khan; Isha Khan; Jalal Uddin Khan; Mohamed Nazir
Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} the value of discourse
 
Much as I enjoy some of the postings and feel provoked by others, I cannot continue to belong to it as long as one of the most prolific contributors is pseudonymous.
My request to the moderator: either assure me that you know the identity of all contributors and that some individuals have good reason to be 'unknown', or please remove me from this list.
Thanks and Khuda hafiz
Salim
 
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 1:40 AM, 'javed helali' via PFC-Friends <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Well said. That's how it should be.
 
Javed Helali
 

From: Salim Rashid <srashid17@gmail.com>
To: "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "aishams567@yahoo.com" <aishams567@yahoo.com>; "aislam65@hotmail.com" <aislam65@hotmail.com>; "mbimunshi@gmail.com" <mbimunshi@gmail.com>; AbidBahar PostCard <abahar.canada@gmail.com>; Muazzam Kazi <kazi4986@yahoo.com>; Capt Hossain <atlanticmarinecanada@gmail.com>; Sameer Syed <amsmel@aol.com>; S Akhter <sakhter1015@gmail.com>; Zoglul Zoglul <zoglul@hotmail.co.uk>; Mohammad Gani <mgani69@gmail.com>; rashed Anam <rashedanam1971@gmail.com>; Azad Khan <azadcop@yahoo.com>; Isha Khan <bdmailer@gmail.com>; Jalal Uddin Khan <jukhan@gmail.com>; Mohamed Nazir <nazir0101@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 8:27 PM
Subject: {PFC-Friends} the value of discourse
 
The recent, specific, claims that someone or some people are sending messages under pseudonyms is disturbing. The language has sometimes become insulting and vulgar, despite several requests to the contrary. This prevents discourse, which is the main value of such a forum. I wish I knew how to stop the exchange at sarcasm and the occasional barb.
However, if someone really fears retaliation for participating in this forum, perhaps they should leave? and if they stay, why use a false name? anyone who posts has to provide the moderator with a definite identity.
Can the moderator please take a stand, one way or another?
 
 
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pfc-friends+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
 
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--
Salim Rashid
Professor of Economics, Emeritus
University of Illinois
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Posted by: Shah DeEldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





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[mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} Forum Discipline // PFC-Friends



I am not even sure that I belong to the PFC-Friends. My posts often seem not to reach its members, something the moderator might look into. Still, allow me to say a few words on a subject you have been talking about over the last few days. There is much in the current discussions that is reasonable. But  It is necessary to look beneath it all. Personally, I rank decency in the use of language among the virtues of decent men and women. But we cannot stop at that. Consider the following sentences from one of the contributors of the debate, or should I say quarrel, which I have borrowed from this thread of exchanges.

          
                        I fully support what you said, Mr. Khan. No personal attacks, no foul language, no attack on any faith. Especially, faith is a very                                 sensitive matter. It should be left to an individual to choose what he wants to follow. If one prefers to remain an atheist or non-                              conformist but that should not be one's licence to attack other's faith.  
                    It may also be preferable that we do not propagate or promote an alien agenda that is contrary to the interest of Bangladesh 
                   anaspirations of its people. 

    The statement implores members of the group not to attack "on any faith." But how do you define "attack"? There is no universally acceptable definition of attack in a debate, even when only decent language is used. But look at the next sentence in the text above and we get closer to the meaning of the word "attack" used here. Faith is a "very sensitive matter," we are told, and should not be touched. Indeed "hurting the religious sentiment" has been taboo in our society, and breaking it can nowadays sent the perpetrator to jail or worse fate. So, must we not hurt such sentiments ? If the answer is no, it has serious implications for freedom. Freedom curtailed is freedom destroyed and the ethos of a modern society goes against such curtailment. Moreover, modern history shows that mankind has made progress towards greater freedom largely by actually hurting orthodox religious sentiments. The history of Enlightenment in Europe shows this. Voltaire is a great example here. He had to flee France in the aftermath of his scathing "attack " on the church. Ultimately freedom won. 
     Note also that the author of the above paragraph suggests that atheist or non-conformists should not think that they have licence to attack others' faith. Apart from the difficulty of defining "attack", does it suggest that the "Others" can, on the other hand, attack the atheist with impunity? The latter in fact is the rule of the game, worked out and enforced in Bangladeshi society today. 
     And, finally, who defines " alien agenda"? By such blanket term, one can imply a whole lot of things. It is therefore unhelpful to talk in these terms.
     All of the above considerations are important. Merely focusing on "discipline" will be like shoving them under the carpet.

Mahfuzur Rahman    
    
    


-----Original Message-----
From: Shah DeEldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com>
To: Khurshed Chowdhury <chowdhuryk@gmail.com>
Cc: pfc-friends <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>; bangladesh-progressives googlegroups <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>; mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; mahbubkhan@ieee.org <mahbubkhan35@hotmail.com>; aishams567 <aishams567@yahoo.com>; Mohammed Amirul Islam <aislam65@hotmail.com>; MBI Munshi <mbimunshi@gmail.com>; AbidBahar PostCard <abahar.canada@gmail.com>; Muazzam Kazi <kazi4986@yahoo.com>; Capt Hossain <atlanticmarinecanada@gmail.com>; Sameer Syed <amsmel@aol.com>; S Akhter <sakhter1015@gmail.com>; Zoglul Zoglul <zoglul@hotmail.co.uk>; Mohammad Gani <mgani69@gmail.com>; rashed Anam <rashedanam1971@gmail.com>; Azad Khan <azadcop@yahoo.com>; Isha Khan <bdmailer@gmail.com>; Jalal Uddin Khan <jukhan@gmail.com>; Mohamed Nazir <nazir0101@gmail.com>; Msa40 <msa40@aol.com>; Sitangshu Guha <guhasb@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Oct 5, 2016 4:42 pm
Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} Forum Discipline // PFC-Friends

Thank you. Forum moderators should know that... it is the contributors that make a forum vibrant, articulate and enlightening. If we start agreeing with everybody and sing Kumbaya song, that would bore people to death. There will be some heated discussions but that is all good for a forum. If a religious practice is questioned, why can't people write an intelligent response? The members are not really illiterates but got degrees from universities? What are they afraid of? Loosing face to opposing sides? If people are questioning about everything, why should religion be beyond any critic? Is it so fragile that our mere words would destroy a God/Gods? I find the argument is silly very comical.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Khurshed Chowdhury <chowdhuryk@gmail.com> wrote:
"People who have been complaining are no saints. Once, people started giving back with overwhelming force and rhetoric, all hell has broken loose. These actors can attack, lie and demean anybody's  integrity and religious or no-religious indoctrination. And, that is perfectly legit because they belong to some special God loving group? If moderators want to be fair, he/she should not muzzle one group but let others to post whatever they please. That would be called favoritism. People who are complaining, should show the way what is good and what is not? Writing nothing but complaining about the content is not the way. If subject Islam is a taboo and beyond anybody's question, then the same rule should be applied to Hindu, Buddhists, Christianity, Judaism and others too. Alternatively, the forum should be declared as an Islamic property and ban others, who do not conform to the religious rule. I will have no problem with such new decree. I am on many forums including Mukto-mona, Bangladesh-progressives, Disqus, Tweeter and many others. I spar with thousands people everyday. I am a free spirit and I have no intention to stick around where democracy would not be respected. Thank you."
 
Dear All:
 
I do agree with almost everything said by Mr. DeEldar above.  I would like to know what is the definition of "Criticism"? We have been discussing about Islam, about the true face of Islam, and nothing I could find as Criticism here. Lately, another very important issue (Kurbani in Islam) has been brought by our honorable Dr. Mahfuzur Rahman which needs vigorous discussions in order to establish the truth about Kurbani! We may soon start that issue also to discuss. I don't think by opening the true face of any subject is called: Criticism! Please correct me if I am wrong!  Thanks.
 
 
KAC
 
 
 
From: Shah DeEldar [mailto:shahdeeldar@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 11:10 AM
To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com; bangladesh-progressives googlegroups; mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com; mahbubkhan@ieee.org
Cc: aishams567@yahoo.com; aislam65@hotmail.com; mbimunshi@gmail.com; AbidBahar PostCard; Muazzam Kazi; Capt Hossain; Sameer Syed; S Akhter; Zoglul Zoglul; Mohammad Gani; rashed Anam; Azad Khan; Isha Khan; Jalal Uddin Khan; Mohamed Nazir; Msa40; Sitangshu Guha; Khurshed Chowdhury

Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} Forum Discipline // PFC-Friends
 
People who have been complaining are no saints. Once, people started giving back with overwhelming force and rhetoric, all hell has broken loose. These actors can attack, lie and demean anybody's  integrity and religious or no-religious indoctrination. And, that is perfectly legit because they belong to some special God loving group? If moderators want to be fair, he/she should not muzzle one group but let others to post whatever they please. That would be called favoritism. People who are complaining, should show the way what is good and what is not? Writing nothing but complaining about the content is not the way. If subject Islam is a taboo and beyond anybody's question, then the same rule should be applied to Hindu, Buddhists, Christianity, Judaism and others too. Alternatively, the forum should be declared as an Islamic property and ban others, who do not conform to the religious rule. I will have no problem with such new decree. I am on many forums including Mukto-mona, Bangladesh-progressives, Disqus, Tweeter and many others. I spar with thousands people everyday. I am a free spirit and I have no intention to stick around where democracy would not be respected. Thank you.  
 
On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 9:07 AM, mahbubkhan@ieee.org <mahbubkhan35@hotmail.com> wrote:
In this open and very active forum of this magnitude and diversity where the participants are located worldwide including the USA, Bangladesh, Canada, Australia, Asia, Europe etc, with many very thoughtful and talented people in this PFC-Friends Forum, it is easier if we focus on the messages rather than the messangers. There have been requests not to make any personal attacks or to use any vulger words or phrases in this discussion forum. There have also been requests not to attack the religion of Islam in particular and other religions in general, and that is because it appears to be a cheap way to try to win an argument or to show the wisdom. There are many other good topics that can be discussed by thoughtful and talented people with sound logic but without vulgarity. It is highly expected that the respected membership of this very active global forum will maintain mutual respect and civility while discussion continues through sound logic on many good topics. With best regards.
 

From: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Salim Rashid <srashid17@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 3:00 AM
To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com
Cc: aishams567@yahoo.com; aislam65@hotmail.com; mbimunshi@gmail.com; AbidBahar PostCard; Muazzam Kazi; Capt Hossain; Sameer Syed; S Akhter; Zoglul Zoglul; Mohammad Gani; rashed Anam; Azad Khan; Isha Khan; Jalal Uddin Khan; Mohamed Nazir
Subject: Re: {PFC-Friends} the value of discourse
 
Much as I enjoy some of the postings and feel provoked by others, I cannot continue to belong to it as long as one of the most prolific contributors is pseudonymous.
My request to the moderator: either assure me that you know the identity of all contributors and that some individuals have good reason to be 'unknown', or please remove me from this list.
Thanks and Khuda hafiz
Salim
 
On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 1:40 AM, 'javed helali' via PFC-Friends <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Well said. That's how it should be.
 
Javed Helali
 

From: Salim Rashid <srashid17@gmail.com>
To: "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "aishams567@yahoo.com" <aishams567@yahoo.com>; "aislam65@hotmail.com" <aislam65@hotmail.com>; "mbimunshi@gmail.com" <mbimunshi@gmail.com>; AbidBahar PostCard <abahar.canada@gmail.com>; Muazzam Kazi <kazi4986@yahoo.com>; Capt Hossain <atlanticmarinecanada@gmail.com>; Sameer Syed <amsmel@aol.com>; S Akhter <sakhter1015@gmail.com>; Zoglul Zoglul <zoglul@hotmail.co.uk>; Mohammad Gani <mgani69@gmail.com>; rashed Anam <rashedanam1971@gmail.com>; Azad Khan <azadcop@yahoo.com>; Isha Khan <bdmailer@gmail.com>; Jalal Uddin Khan <jukhan@gmail.com>; Mohamed Nazir <nazir0101@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 8:27 PM
Subject: {PFC-Friends} the value of discourse
 
The recent, specific, claims that someone or some people are sending messages under pseudonyms is disturbing. The language has sometimes become insulting and vulgar, despite several requests to the contrary. This prevents discourse, which is the main value of such a forum. I wish I knew how to stop the exchange at sarcasm and the occasional barb.
However, if someone really fears retaliation for participating in this forum, perhaps they should leave? and if they stay, why use a false name? anyone who posts has to provide the moderator with a definite identity.
Can the moderator please take a stand, one way or another?
 
 
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--
Salim Rashid
Professor of Economics, Emeritus
University of Illinois
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__._,_.___

Posted by: "mahfuzur@aol.com" <mahfuzur@aol.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





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