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Tuesday, July 3, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling



I have thought about the question also - as to why people get offended by the criticism of their religions; why can't they leave it to God.  This is what I found.

People are interested in religion not only for the eternal rewards, but - also they are also interested in the brand name of the clan. Religion is no different from other commercial commodity. It needs to be sold for continued expansion, and criticism is not good for the business, and also for the reputation of the clan.  As a result, people cannot wait for God's punishment.

Now, the tolerance level of criticism varies from followers to followers. Some followers may care more about eternal rewards than expansionism. They will have more tolerance to criticism. Some followers could be totally indifferent of criticism. It's a matter of priority.

Having said that, I have to recognize that, while protecting the brand name is discouraged in some religions, it is mandatory in others. 

Jiten Roy

--- On Tue, 7/3/12, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2012, 4:36 PM

 
Along with making a little correction in my post below, let me put forth my thoughts on one of the terms that I have used.
                                                                                                                   
Abusing Religion:
 
From time to time, many religious people accuse non-religious people and people of other religions of abusing their religion. Example: if someone were to open up the Bible and criticize something in it, he/she would be accused by some Christians of abusing their religion. I said "some" (as opposed to "many") for Christians, because I believe this group has progressed significantly for a lot of them to ignore such criticisms.
 
However, let us try some logic. What can be more abuse for God (Allah, Bhagaban, whatever else in other lanugages) than the so-called believers to think that He is not almighty, and that He needs help from them? What can be more doubting of God's power than thinking that He needs humans to fight for Him (or for His religion) in this world?
 
The way I see it, if someone actually insulted God or His messenger, a true believer could feel pity for the insulter. Because, according to the belief, the insult was against the most powerful, and the insulter might have invited big trouble for himself/herself in the form of punishment from God. If God knew best, the believer would have no business prescribing a punishment for the insulter. The most civilized and caring action for the believer would be to pray to God to change the insulter's mind, the power of which God certainly has according to his/her true belief.
 
The bottom line is, if religion was really for believing in the almighty God (Allah, Bhagaban, whatever else in other lanugages), as opposed to forming/maintaining/expanding a clan, there should be no reason for humans to fight, or to hate, for maintaining or promoting it.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=================================================
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 9:32 AM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
Indeed, I believe most of us in this forum are opposed to religion-peddling, as Ms. Majid wrote. As I wrote before, there is no point in opening up religious books for criticism, even when that might look scholarly.
 
I am opposed to the use, misuse and abuse of religions, all of which have caused a lot of division, hatred and injustice in the world. While I do not follow any religion, I am not unwilling to do something just because if was found in a religious book. In other words, I am perfectly OK to implement in my life anything that is good in the Koran, for example.
 
To me, all religious books are part of my history. None of them are "my religion" or "someone else's religion." I am open to follow anything good in any book. I have no animosity toward any religion. For me, no religion needs to have cadres of defenders.
 
However, I am certainly for discarding anything bad in any book. And I am unwilling to dig for contexts by which a seemingly bad teaching can be interpreted to be OK or good. Nor do I have time for overly-brainwashed 'scholars', who try to sustain and promote nonsense in what they think is 'their religion'.
 
The bottom line is, we should fight division, hatred and injustice that are promoted via use, misuse and abuse or religions.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
====================================
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
 
There is a gray area between religion itself and the way it is used by vested interest groups. In a God fearing society it is unproductive and sometimes catastrophic to bluntly criticize a religion. It antagonizes common people and the reactionary forces get an excuse to pull them on their own side. But can a society really progress without pointing out the weaknesses in a religion? Obviously, No. But if we do so, religious feelings of the believers cannot but be hurt. It is a dilemma indeed. When Dipa Mehta shows in her film "Water" the quote from Gandhi and Manusanhita side by side, the Hindutvabadis do not like it. But we come to know that Gandhi did not endorse all of sage Manu's sacred pronouncements.
 
======================================
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 8:55 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
 
                  Do we all agree, on this one point, that we are all opposed to religion-peddling? I fervently hope that the answer is: YES.                 If so, then it is our solemn duty to understand the matter of 'religion-peddling'.                          In this business of religion -peddling it is the 'peddling' part that should command our attention.  And that requires certain in-depth and close attention to politics. Religion is a very powerful cultural artifice, and since both politics and religion deal with a community of people, there has been a mix of the two from time immemorial.  But we are constantly talking about religion-related  social symptoms, and mis-diagnosing them as 'religion'.  Why? There are several reasons.  One, mental laziness.  It takes a lot more patience and astute observation to do a political analysis. It needs historical information.              Throughout the 16th century in Europe , for instance, the Catholic Church was fighting an intense political battle with the breaking up of the Church.  The execution of the Nolan Magus and poet, Giordano Bruno, who was not a scientist or mathematician like Nicholas Copernicus, and the persecution of astronomer Galileo, a couple of decades later are indicative of the Church's political authority under severe pressure.  It is silly to cite this as the paradigmatic 'science v. religion' struggle.  It is a singular historical event within the context of Europe .               Both Dawkins and Hitchens are being totally dishonest in their discussions against religion. Dawkins is addressing the Creationists exclusively, and Hitchens's arguments apply to the Jehadists only.  Neither has the courage and intelligence of Karen Armstrong who discards the construction of the binary opposition of 'science v. religion' and refuses any hierarchical positioning of the two branches of knowledge.               Two, critiquing religion is a mask for communalism.  More on that later.                               Farida Majid
 
==============================




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Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling



Along with making a little correction in my post below, let me put forth my thoughts on one of the terms that I have used.
                                                                                                                   
Abusing Religion:
 
From time to time, many religious people accuse non-religious people and people of other religions of abusing their religion. Example: if someone were to open up the Bible and criticize something in it, he/she would be accused by some Christians of abusing their religion. I said "some" (as opposed to "many") for Christians, because I believe this group has progressed significantly for a lot of them to ignore such criticisms.
 
However, let us try some logic. What can be more abuse for God (Allah, Bhagaban, whatever else in other lanugages) than the so-called believers to think that He is not almighty, and that He needs help from them? What can be more doubting of God's power than thinking that He needs humans to fight for Him (or for His religion) in this world?
 
The way I see it, if someone actually insulted God or His messenger, a true believer could feel pity for the insulter. Because, according to the belief, the insult was against the most powerful, and the insulter might have invited big trouble for himself/herself in the form of punishment from God. If God knew best, the believer would have no business prescribing a punishment for the insulter. The most civilized and caring action for the believer would be to pray to God to change the insulter's mind, the power of which God certainly has according to his/her true belief.
 
The bottom line is, if religion was really for believing in the almighty God (Allah, Bhagaban, whatever else in other lanugages), as opposed to forming/maintaining/expanding a clan, there should be no reason for humans to fight, or to hate, for maintaining or promoting it.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
=================================================
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 9:32 AM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
Indeed, I believe most of us in this forum are opposed to religion-peddling, as Ms. Majid wrote. As I wrote before, there is no point in opening up religious books for criticism, even when that might look scholarly.
 
I am opposed to the use, misuse and abuse of religions, all of which have caused a lot of division, hatred and injustice in the world. While I do not follow any religion, I am not unwilling to do something just because if was found in a religious book. In other words, I am perfectly OK to implement in my life anything that is good in the Koran, for example.
 
To me, all religious books are part of my history. None of them are "my religion" or "someone else's religion." I am open to follow anything good in any book. I have no animosity toward any religion. For me, no religion needs to have cadres of defenders.
 
However, I am certainly for discarding anything bad in any book. And I am unwilling to dig for contexts by which a seemingly bad teaching can be interpreted to be OK or good. Nor do I have time for overly-brainwashed 'scholars', who try to sustain and promote nonsense in what they think is 'their religion'.
 
The bottom line is, we should fight division, hatred and injustice that are promoted via use, misuse and abuse or religions.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
====================================
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
 
There is a gray area between religion itself and the way it is used by vested interest groups. In a God fearing society it is unproductive and sometimes catastrophic to bluntly criticize a religion. It antagonizes common people and the reactionary forces get an excuse to pull them on their own side. But can a society really progress without pointing out the weaknesses in a religion? Obviously, No. But if we do so, religious feelings of the believers cannot but be hurt. It is a dilemma indeed. When Dipa Mehta shows in her film "Water" the quote from Gandhi and Manusanhita side by side, the Hindutvabadis do not like it. But we come to know that Gandhi did not endorse all of sage Manu's sacred pronouncements.
 
======================================
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 8:55 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Voice of the People
 
                  Do we all agree, on this one point, that we are all opposed to religion-peddling? I fervently hope that the answer is: YES.                 If so, then it is our solemn duty to understand the matter of 'religion-peddling'.                          In this business of religion -peddling it is the 'peddling' part that should command our attention.  And that requires certain in-depth and close attention to politics. Religion is a very powerful cultural artifice, and since both politics and religion deal with a community of people, there has been a mix of the two from time immemorial.  But we are constantly talking about religion-related  social symptoms, and mis-diagnosing them as 'religion'.  Why? There are several reasons.  One, mental laziness.  It takes a lot more patience and astute observation to do a political analysis. It needs historical information.              Throughout the 16th century in Europe , for instance, the Catholic Church was fighting an intense political battle with the breaking up of the Church.  The execution of the Nolan Magus and poet, Giordano Bruno, who was not a scientist or mathematician like Nicholas Copernicus, and the persecution of astronomer Galileo, a couple of decades later are indicative of the Church's political authority under severe pressure.  It is silly to cite this as the paradigmatic 'science v. religion' struggle.  It is a singular historical event within the context of Europe .               Both Dawkins and Hitchens are being totally dishonest in their discussions against religion. Dawkins is addressing the Creationists exclusively, and Hitchens's arguments apply to the Jehadists only.  Neither has the courage and intelligence of Karen Armstrong who discards the construction of the binary opposition of 'science v. religion' and refuses any hierarchical positioning of the two branches of knowledge.               Two, critiquing religion is a mask for communalism.  More on that later.                               Farida Majid
 
==============================




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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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[mukto-mona] FW: The Loss of a Kashmiri Gem



                  And al-Quaida salafists destroyed priceless Islamic antiquities in Timbuktoo, Mali in Africa.  Almost all Ahlul bayt archeological sited have been bulldozed by the Saudi Jahils in Makkah Sharif and in Madina Munawwara.
           
                   All our old darrgahs and Sufi shrines in Bangladesh had been attacked during the BNP/Jamaat regime, and may be assaulted again.

                   I it safe to have Jamaati Islami political party in Bangladesh for the future of Muslims?

From: farida_majid@hotmail.com

Subject: The Loss of a Kashmiri Gem
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:37:39 -0400


  http://www.bismillahnews.in/?page_id=995

Dastgeer Saheb Shrine fire set by Indian forces ?

[Bismillahnews.in-25-06-12-New Delhi-2012-Sohail Siddiqui] Peer aan e Peer Hazrat Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jeelani Rahmatullah Aaley also known as Gaus e Azam to the believers is the head of the spritual tribe of Islam and Khwaja Ghareeb Nawaz Ajmeri[Rh] to Hazrat Nizamuddin Aulia [Rh] all follow him.His Tomb is in Iraq  Abdul-Qadir Gilani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hence his is undisputed Kingdom among the Muslims irrespective of the sects.


It is because of this that 337 years ago an Afghan governor Abdullah Khan brought few tabarrukaats and relics of Gaus e Azam [ Dastgeer Sahab ] to srinagar and laid foundation in Srinagar of what is known as shrine of Dastgeer sahab to Kashmiris. This historical shrine was a beautiful peace of architecture from inside and outside decorated with wooden carvings, chandeliers and Antiques which todays fire consumed. http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_200-yr-old-dastageer-shrine-gutted-holy-relics-safe_1706364


The inside view of Datgeer Sahab srinagar which has been lost for ever in today's fire


Fire an accident or conspiracy ?


Though there has been no concrete evidence of how the fire started in Dastageer sahab shrine ? But few tweets on twitters indicate the role of Indian forces.They argue why 15 fire brigades reached very late and all of them with out water ? If this is true then it indicates towards a well planned conspiracy to destroy the historic Dastgeer Sahab shrine by delaying the fire fighting measures.It is because of this the people stoned these empty water tankers and at least fifty civilians got burnt in attempt to control the fire spreading with hands and other available means.

The Governor of J&K NN Vohra is a former civil servant a former home secretary of India.Not only is he a former home secretary but he after his retirement was active member of BJP at its Ashok road head Quater's New Delhi.He saw the NDA tenure too and was appointed Governor by UPA-1 in 2004.Obviously his work has been so great that he is in his 8 th year of Governorship of J&K. These 8 years have witnessed the worst human rights violations by Army in form encounters of Kashmiri youths.With more than 68000 deaths the governor sahab has done his utmost to alienate the Kashmiri's from India. The Question is why have we been sending Armymen ,Jagmohans and Vohras as governors to J&K ? And why Narasimha Rao fascist elements dominate Kashmiri committees? 

Shabaan and Ramzaan targeted by this conspiracy

A strong resentment is against the Army rule in Kashmir because of its atrocities on women and youths.The suppression of democratic rights of Kashmiri's as human beings by Gun has been going on since last one decade.The present fire just before ensuing Holy night of Shab-barat followed by Ramadhan will give more opportunity to the ruthless state to carry on with more atrocities to suppress the Kashmiri self respect by force. Already the issue has been seized by Army and situation will further worsen looking at the irresponsible behaviour of the government playing with emotions of the masses.This fire has not only destroyed the cultural masterpiece of Islamic sufist architecture but will consume more than just the shrine as a tweet predicts.

Pakistan or its agents have lit the fire ?

The incident has taken place with in the Indian Army managed and controlled area which has one army personnel per 10 kashmiri's the higest per civilian-military ratio ever deployed by any country in the world.Then too if foreign hand is blamed only to cover up self acts of conspiracies the world will want evidence of paki hand?

Divided Kashmiri leadership's ploy ?

Mirwaiz Maulvi farooq is on the stings of Indian Home Ministry being popped up by his friend Asaduddin Owaisi against "Pakistani Agent " as M.P.Owaisi calls undisputed Hurriyat leader Gilani saheb.With a constant tussle going own to pull down Gilani sahebs strature among Kashmiri's is it possible that a section of Indian intelligence is working in close co-operation with anti-Hurriyat leaders/ politicians of kashmiri political parties to break down the back of the Azadi movement with this final onslaught?

Cultural Genocide

Are Islamic monuments and Muslim heritage safe in Kashmir and outside Kashmir ? Is the ASI not destroying Muslim historical monuments by declaring them as protected monument and not taking care of them.Many historical Monuments outside Kashmir have decayed left to die by ASI.In Kashmir where such heritage is not dead and live the state is resorting to such conspiracies.

UPA Government playing to saffron gallery

On one hand UPA is appointed BJP person NN Vohra as J&K Governor and gave him all the support of 5lakh Army personnel's in implementing RSS agenda in Kashmir on the other hand secret deal to get saffron approval of its Presidential candidate.The newly appointed Chief of Army called on the J&K Chief minister Omar Abdullah ? It is not a secret that after getting UPA nomination Pranab Babu called Advani.The BJP strategy of not fielding any heavy weight like Jethmalani against Pranab and putting up just a formal fight through Sangma has not gone unnoticed.Before the Lok Sabha elections UPA and NDA are jointly implementing few policy decision common to their agenda of Hindutva.The constant attack on Kashmiri culture,freedom and religion draws the communal Hindu voters towards such parties during elections.As release of Maulana Azhar Masood by NDA government was cashed by its opponents. 

Kashmir not part of India?

While Pranab Babu has plenty of time to pay visits to "Anti-National Missions" found involved in Purlia Arms dropping case, he visited many congress chief Ministers,made phone calls to Advani,Thackrey,the communists,sent dealers to Mulayam Singh Yadav but till today he has not made a single simile gesture to win Kashmiri electorates of the presidential elections which is a fairly large number and decisive for a secular India?

This Fire can burn the throne of Delhi

Peace should be maintained by Army with out force and atrocities respecting the freedom and sentiments of the people of Kashmir.The UPA government must with out wasting time call back the Governor and institute a Judicial or CBI probe in to the conspiracy angle of the burning down of Dastgeer saheb.This is an opportunity to stop doing what has been going on from last decade in systematic ethnic cleansing of kashmiri's.If the Aim of UPA government is to run Kashmir in accordance with the RSS policy and force Kashmiri's by atrocities to rise against the Indian state asking for Azadi from India then the fire of Dastgeer saheb won't spare the throne of Delhi also.Kashmiri's want Azadi from atrocities of central rule via Army they do not want Azadi from the India.

Here is the pictorial story of what happened to Dastgeer sahab.

*********************


--
Ahmed Sohail Siddiqui
Chief Editor, www.bismillahnews.in




To: PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh@yahoogroups.com; PakistaniCommunityinGulf@yahoogroups.com; overseas.pakistanis@gmail.com; overseas_pakistanis-owner@yahoogroups.com; S4Sameera@yahoogroups.com; NEDGRAD_79@yahoogroups.com; Yaadein_Meri@yahoogroups.com; bpfmag@gmail.com; bpf.events@yahoo.com
From: faizalnajdi@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 09:55:15 +0300
Subject: [PakistanWritersClub-Riyadh] <<Remembering Ammi>> - A Nicely Written Obituary-Tribute by Ali Wahab - for His Mother Fouzia Wahab

 

Dear All:

A nicely written Obituary-Tribute to a mother (Fauzia Wahab) by her son - Ali Wahab.

URL Link:

Trust you me, I couldn't hold my tears.

RIP - Fouzia Wahab Sahiba!!!!!

Love all and always.

Faiz Al-Najdi

--
<<God Gives Every Bird its Food,
But He Does Not Throw it into its Nest>>
                 ~ J. G. Holland



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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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