Banner Advertiser

Friday, August 31, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Former India state minister faces death for role in massacre



Read scapegoat for escape goat. Sorry for the wrong spelling. 

Mr. Anwar
I don't think Vajpayee supported the Gujarat riot. He rather was very angry with Modi. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 1, 2012, at 12:47 AM, "Mohiuddin Anwar" <mohiuddin@netzero.net> wrote:

Yes real criminals like Norendra Modi and Bajpayee both  should be executed for crime against humanity.
Even the than Prime Minister can't be sparedfor not taking action  against the slaughtering of Indian muslims.
Interestingly  Muslims of Bangladesh and Pakistan didn't take any revenge for the killing
of there muslim brothers/sisters by Modi led criminal Gunda's.
 
 

---------- Original Message ----------
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Former India state minister faces death for role in massacre
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:18:50 -0700 (PDT)

 

Is Maya Kodnani going to be an escape goat? Narendra Modi is the main villain. Even his boss Vajpayee got very angry with Modi over the Gujarat riot.
 
 
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: Former India state minister faces death for role in massacre
 
 
If India can stick to it's ideals, it will do a lot of good for the country and bring confidence back to the institutions. Lets hope criminals gets punished this time. Shalom!
 
 
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 5:50 amSubject: [mukto-mona] Fw: Former India state minister faces death for role in massacre
 
FYI

--- On Wed, 8/29/12, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject:
To: "Jiten Roy" <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 3:54 PM

 

Former India state minister faces death for role in massacre

Reuters –  3 hrs ago
 
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - A former Indian state minister was found guilty on Wednesday of murder in one of the country's worst religious riots, the highest-profile conviction in a case that casts a shadow over the country 10 years on.
Human rights groups say about 2,500 people, mostly Muslims, were hacked, beaten or burned to death in Gujarat state after a suspected Muslim mob burned alive 59 Hindu activists and pilgrims inside a train in February 2002.
Prosecutors have demanded the death penalty for lawmaker Maya Kodnani, who was among a group charged with "beating, cutting down, burning alive and causing the deaths of women, men and children", according to the charge sheet, in an episode of the Gujarat bloodletting known as the Naroda Patiya massacre.
Kodnani's conviction comes as her Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) prepares for elections in the western state of Gujarat. Narendra Modi, leader of the economic powerhouse state, is often touted as a future prime minister.
One witness alleged Kodnani, who became a minister in the state government five years after the riots, identified Muslim targets to be attacked and at one point fired a pistol.
The Congress party, in power nationally, signaled the case would likely feature in its Gujarat election campaign, saying Kodnani's conviction was proof of the BJP's involvement in the riots.
The BJP said the court ruling was proof that the state's criminal justice system was free from bias.
The savagery of the killings still haunts a country that has witnessed many bouts of religious and ethnic violence since independence from Britain in 1947.
Modi, who was chief minister at the time of the riots, has been accused by critics of turning a blind eye to the violence.
In an interview with the Wall Street Journal published on Wednesday, Modi responded to the criticism, saying he saw no reason to apologize. "One only has to ask for forgiveness if one is guilty of a crime," he said.
Some senior members of the right-wing BJP worry, however, that the enduring legacy of the riots could hurt their chances of unseating the Congress party in national elections due in 2014.
The anti-Modi camp among the BJP's allies believes he is too tainted by the Gujarat riots to be a viable candidate for prime minister despite his success in attracting foreign companies like Ford Motor Co to his state and managing a booming economy there that has averaged double-digit growth annually.
Modi's government was quick to distance itself from the court ruling on Wednesday, noting that Kodnani had not been a Gujarat state minister at the time of the riots.
She resigned from the government when she was arrested in 2009, but remained a member of the state's legislative assembly.
Kodnani and 31 others were convicted by the court in Ahmedabad, Gujarat's main city, for their role in the episode in which 97 people were killed.
"For all the 32 accused, I have argued for death penalty," prosecutor Akhil Desai told a news conference in Ahmedabad.
The court will hand down sentences on Friday.
(Reporting by Shashank Chouhan; Writing by Tony Tharakan and Ross Colvin; Editing by Alison Williams)
 

 

____________________________________________________________
NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.



__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam



Islam, in it's early stage did not encourage conversion to it.  On the contrary, they whipped the converts and those who encouraged the conversion, as the converts did not have to pay the zizya tax.  It was this tax that brought in waves of conversion to Islam during the Abbasid rule.  A mawali, i.e., new convert, was allowed to keep his old religious practice.  But his descendant would be subject to reforms to make them more devout.  The same story applies to the Bengal scene.  Before the Faraizi movement, the Muslim community could not be distinguished from the rest; though today many of them dress up according to the Sharia law and believe their ancestors came from the Arabian desert.

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 6:20 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

My fatwa is still valid, which is - no underage girl should be allowed to make decision about religious conversion. This is not the case here since she is 25 years old.

 

I see that you have a very high expectation of Hindus, but - not from your own co-religionists. You said before that - you expect Muslims to do such things, but not Hindus, especially from India. Well, you may have to be disappointed again and again. Most recent trend in India is reconversion to Hinduism.  Therefore, I will not be surprised if Hindus reconvert her back to Hinduism.  After all, how else can you play the game against an opposition party which does not follow the same rules? Rules have to be uniform between the parties. Isn't it?

The main goal of an organized religion is religious hegemony through expansionism. The most liberal religious ideology of Hinduism made Hindus vulnerable to the predatory conversion practices of the organized religions. I guess - Hindus have realized it recently, and introduced the reconversion process to partially counter the predatory religious practices.  

In my view, humanity is engaged in a deadly religious game, without any tangible benefit.

 

Jiten Roy

 

 

--- On Fri, 8/31/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 3:00 PM


 

Vinita Shaw, 25, a resident of 57/2B Bondel Road, adopted Islam in December last year. Her new name, vide an affidavit by a first class magistrate is, Taiba Khatoon (The Indian Express possesses a copy of the affidavit)

>>>>>> The article is right below our conversations. You can read it and verify yourself. ... :-)


  Again the issue is NOT her age only. It is the neighbors were beating the whole family for reverting to Islam. READ the article before you share your "Fatwa" on it...


Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 1, 2012 12:01 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
There you go again - you won't tell me the age of this lady. I think she is an underage girl. Am I Right? 
 
I have seen many Hindus denounced Hinduism publicly in Bangladesh and following Islam freely, but I have yet to see an apostate Muslim in Bangladesh, who has denounced Islam publicly and following Hinduism freely. Can you show me one? That could be a case to match with this present story.
 
You understand what I am talking about. Please don't bother to show me a Muslim-girl married to a Hindu-guy and following no religion at all or both religions. That's not what we are talking about here.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Fri, 8/31/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 12:03 PM

 

The conversion apparently did not go down too well with their neighbours,.........who, on June 8, beat up the two sisters and their family, including her mother and brother, with bricks and rods...............................they said unmentionable things as I have converted," said Vinita. She also alleged that both sisters were abused and molested.

>>>>>>>>>> I think you still missed the point. I have copied from the article to make it easy for all readers. We were not talking about family only. We are talking "neighbours"

Also do note, it seems you are trying to put blame back on Islam without even reading the article you are commenting on. HERE the neighbors were upset with someone reverting to Islam and beat the crap out of the WHOLE FAMILY...

We hear a lot about killing apostate in the western media but I am yet to hear anyone in Bangladesh were killed over it. In fact there are quite a few public figures who also had interfaith marriages but they get along fine with mainstream population. If someone does not follow Islam, it really does not matter if Islam approves it or not.

I see a comical effort to divert the topic into something else or comparing to Bangladesh etc. Kindly read the article then comment on it. If highly educated people like members here cannot even understand a simple article, why do you expect millions of half educated Muslims will get it right every time. Which is unrealistic expectation to begin with!!

If you want the world to change for better, you have to start with yourself. If you care for fairness from others, you ought to start from from your neighborhood and hopefully people will follow your lead. Expectation from others devoid of actions never delivers.

Shalom!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 9:07 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
You said they have beaten this Lady. How old is this Lady? I missed it. My comment was about underage girls, not Ladies. If she is a grownup Lady, my comment is not applicable to her, as she may have made a conscious decision. If her relatives have punished her for doing so, they are wrong, and they should be held liable for the punishment.
I understood your point clearly. You tried to equate this punishment with the punishment of an apostate, sanctioned by Islam.  Are you sure this punishment rises to the same level as reserved for an apostate, and should deserve the similar criticism?
Jiten Roy

--- On Fri, 8/31/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 9:36 AM

 
where elders rebuke or punish youngsters for wrongdoings. Not a constitutional or secular issue.


>>>>>>>>>> So freedom of religion is not important? As per Indian constitution, ALL Indians are free to pick religion of their choice and practice it freely. How the heck it becomes a family issue when NEIGHBORS of the covert decided to beat this lady?

This is amusing stuff....

Shalom!!



-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:08 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
This case is simple, just like any other issue where elders rebuke or punish youngsters for wrongdoings. Not a constitutional or secular issue.  However,  honor-killing issue could be under the jurisdiction of the constitution. That was my point.

Jiten Roy



--- On Thu, 8/30/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

 

Mr. Q. Rahman is blaming the secular constitution of India for not protecting the girl, who was punished ('beaten') by her relatives for converting to Islam.


>>>>>>>>> it seems member Roy missed the point made in my last post. I am not interested to insult anyone in this forum or "Indian constitution".

For many months in this forum I was "Told" by many members religion/Islam is the cause for many social ills. I have consistently said, religion does not approve mistreating women in any share or form. I do not think the founding fathers of India even "Approved" of making lives of Indian women miserable either. However good laws needs strong institutions of apply those laws on people who violate those laws.

Here (IN Muktomona) people tend to focus on people who violate religious laws and attempt to make a case against religion. However the SAME sets of members will bring who different argument when I make the same case against a secular country like India. Then it becomes a "Family problem" not religion or secularism.

Which shows most of our "Mukto-monas" are NOT able to get away from their per-conceived notions about issues we discuss. 


There are thousands of incidents like this in Bangladesh


>>>>>>>>> I am sure there is. When we discuss those issues, many members will not shy away from blaming "Islam" or "Jihadi" Muslims for it.

The irony is we get furious when we see double standards. Most of us don't realize that, when we make comments based on emotion (Instead of facts on ground!) we do the same!!

Just to "Counter" my comment on "India", we see comments on "Honor killing" (Which has NO relations to Islam, rather a part of many cultures across the globe), Bangladesh and to top it off' " I see nothing unusual here" and "their anger is quite justifiable in this case".


It does not matter if the injustice taking place in India, Bangladesh, Myanmar or Palestine. Those of us who have some level of education should have the backbone to call it what it is. If it is a wrong thing, we need to unitedly say, it is WRONG!!

If some of us silently or vocally support wrongdoing to other people, it is hard to stand up against oppression. That is why it is so hard for us to remove oppression in our own country. We should not tolerate intolerance.

Lastly, according to the report, it was the neighbors who did not approve of the conversion.

My two cents.....


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 5:45 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
Mr. Q. Rahman is blaming the secular constitution of India for not protecting the girl, who was punished ('beaten') by her relatives for converting to Islam. Mr. Chakraborty, on the other hand, first supported the Indian secular constitution, and then undermined it.  None of these comments make any sense to me. I am not sure why they are trying to connect secularism and constitution with this story, except to undermine them. As I see - this is a family issue, and the family, obviously, could not approve girl's action, and they were angry, which resulted into such a punishment. I see nothing unusual here. Do you?

Let me remind Mr. Rahman and others that - this is not the so called 'honor-killing' issue of the Hindu society. If it were, I could join hands with Mr. Rahman and others. 
 
There are thousands of incidents like this in Bangladesh. I am sure, Mr. Chakraborty and Mr. Rahman are aware of many of them. Often I hear stories like – adolescent schoolgirls abducted and converted to Islam. Most cases - these girls are lost forever from their families and friends. So,  their anger is quite justifiable in this case. There is no happy ending in any of these families.
 
I could care less if someone made a conscious decision about his/her religion. Unfortunately, that's not the case; most of these girls are very young, and unable to make conscious judgment at that age. Many of them admitted, in the later part of their lives, that it was a wrong decision in the first place. But, what good that could bring in their lives - nothing? The only way this process can be fair - if it is open-ended, and uniformly supported by all religious communities. Can this happen with the honor-killing system in the society? I doubt.
 
Jiten Roy


--- On Tue, 8/28/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 9:04 PM

 
People are not the state. Indian state has a secular constitution that does not endorse such killings, but a state with strict Shariah law will probably will commit such killings officially. Ambedkar, a great scholar and one of the chief architects of the Indian constitution, led a mass conversion of 50,000 dalits to Buddhism. It might not have been possible in any other country. It does not mean that leaders of the secular parties are all free from evils. The then secular leaders showed total passivity during (or maybe even indirectly supported) the demolition of the Babri mosque. Many a time (I still remember Meerat riot) state police have participated in communal riots to kill Muslims.

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
Maybe, you should check out what Muslims do to their own brothers and sisters when they abandon their religion? They get killed or stoned! Get off your high horse, bro!
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
Thanks God for Indian press. The real situation of "Secular India" where people are NOT free to pick a religion of their choice.


Shalom!



 
 

 
 

India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
Vinita Shaw and her sister both say they were beaten by neighbors for converting from Hinduism to Islam, and here I was thinking that it was only Muslims who had issues with those of their (former) co-religionists who leave the faith!
Vinita Shaw and her sister both say they were beaten by neighbors for converting from Hinduism to Islam, and here I was thinking that it was only Muslims who had issues with those of their (former) co-religionists who leave the faith!
What if they were Muslim?:

Sisters beaten up for converting to Islam

by Arshad Ali (Indian Express)
A south Kolkata girl, who has converted from Hinduism to Islam, and her sister who is also keen to convert, were beaten up allegedly by the associates of the local councillor. The girls have also alleged police inaction.
Vinita Shaw, 25, a resident of 57/2B Bondel Road, adopted Islam in December last year. Her new name, vide an affidavit by a first class magistrate is, Taiba Khatoon (The Indian Express possesses a copy of the affidavit). Her sister, 18-year-old Pooja Shaw, too, expressed her wish to follow suit last week.
The conversion apparently did not go down too well with their neighbours, who, on June 8, beat up the two sisters and their family, including her mother and brother, with bricks and rods.
"We are a very poor family. My father is paralytic and bed-ridden. These people started a fight on the pretext that we dirty the place too much. But when they started beating us, they said unmentionable things as I have converted," said Vinita. She also alleged that both sisters were abused and molested.
Vinita also claimed harassment at the hands of the police."I went to the police station with a written complaint against Asim Bera, Tapas Bera, Abhishek Malakar, Krishna Ray, Akash Ray, Manoj Singh, Bikas Singh and Birju Paswan but investigating officer D D Roy Chowdhury tore it up and wrote it himself. He even refused to give me a copy of the complaint and when I insisted, he asked the other officer there to give it to me, referring to me with unmentionable names," she said.
 
  

     
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 







__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam



My fatwa is still valid, which is - no underage girl should be allowed to make decision about religious conversion. This is not the case here since she is 25 years old.

 

I see that you have a very high expectation of Hindus, but - not from your own co-religionists. You said before that - you expect Muslims to do such things, but not Hindus, especially from India. Well, you may have to be disappointed again and again. Most recent trend in India is reconversion to Hinduism.  Therefore, I will not be surprised if Hindus reconvert her back to Hinduism.  After all, how else can you play the game against an opposition party which does not follow the same rules? Rules have to be uniform between the parties. Isn't it?

The main goal of an organized religion is religious hegemony through expansionism. The most liberal religious ideology of Hinduism made Hindus vulnerable to the predatory conversion practices of the organized religions. I guess - Hindus have realized it recently, and introduced the reconversion process to partially counter the predatory religious practices.  

In my view, humanity is engaged in a deadly religious game, without any tangible benefit.

 

Jiten Roy

 

 


--- On Fri, 8/31/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 3:00 PM

 

Vinita Shaw, 25, a resident of 57/2B Bondel Road, adopted Islam in December last year. Her new name, vide an affidavit by a first class magistrate is, Taiba Khatoon (The Indian Express possesses a copy of the affidavit)

>>>>>> The article is right below our conversations. You can read it and verify yourself. ... :-)


  Again the issue is NOT her age only. It is the neighbors were beating the whole family for reverting to Islam. READ the article before you share your "Fatwa" on it...


Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 1, 2012 12:01 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
There you go again - you won't tell me the age of this lady. I think she is an underage girl. Am I Right? 
 
I have seen many Hindus denounced Hinduism publicly in Bangladesh and following Islam freely, but I have yet to see an apostate Muslim in Bangladesh, who has denounced Islam publicly and following Hinduism freely. Can you show me one? That could be a case to match with this present story.
 
You understand what I am talking about. Please don't bother to show me a Muslim-girl married to a Hindu-guy and following no religion at all or both religions. That's not what we are talking about here.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Fri, 8/31/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 12:03 PM

 

The conversion apparently did not go down too well with their neighbours,.........who, on June 8, beat up the two sisters and their family, including her mother and brother, with bricks and rods...............................they said unmentionable things as I have converted," said Vinita. She also alleged that both sisters were abused and molested.

>>>>>>>>>> I think you still missed the point. I have copied from the article to make it easy for all readers. We were not talking about family only. We are talking "neighbours"

Also do note, it seems you are trying to put blame back on Islam without even reading the article you are commenting on. HERE the neighbors were upset with someone reverting to Islam and beat the crap out of the WHOLE FAMILY...

We hear a lot about killing apostate in the western media but I am yet to hear anyone in Bangladesh were killed over it. In fact there are quite a few public figures who also had interfaith marriages but they get along fine with mainstream population. If someone does not follow Islam, it really does not matter if Islam approves it or not.

I see a comical effort to divert the topic into something else or comparing to Bangladesh etc. Kindly read the article then comment on it. If highly educated people like members here cannot even understand a simple article, why do you expect millions of half educated Muslims will get it right every time. Which is unrealistic expectation to begin with!!

If you want the world to change for better, you have to start with yourself. If you care for fairness from others, you ought to start from from your neighborhood and hopefully people will follow your lead. Expectation from others devoid of actions never delivers.

Shalom!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 9:07 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
You said they have beaten this Lady. How old is this Lady? I missed it. My comment was about underage girls, not Ladies. If she is a grownup Lady, my comment is not applicable to her, as she may have made a conscious decision. If her relatives have punished her for doing so, they are wrong, and they should be held liable for the punishment.
I understood your point clearly. You tried to equate this punishment with the punishment of an apostate, sanctioned by Islam.  Are you sure this punishment rises to the same level as reserved for an apostate, and should deserve the similar criticism?
Jiten Roy

--- On Fri, 8/31/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 9:36 AM

 
where elders rebuke or punish youngsters for wrongdoings. Not a constitutional or secular issue.


>>>>>>>>>> So freedom of religion is not important? As per Indian constitution, ALL Indians are free to pick religion of their choice and practice it freely. How the heck it becomes a family issue when NEIGHBORS of the covert decided to beat this lady?

This is amusing stuff....

Shalom!!



-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:08 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
This case is simple, just like any other issue where elders rebuke or punish youngsters for wrongdoings. Not a constitutional or secular issue.  However,  honor-killing issue could be under the jurisdiction of the constitution. That was my point.

Jiten Roy



--- On Thu, 8/30/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

 

Mr. Q. Rahman is blaming the secular constitution of India for not protecting the girl, who was punished ('beaten') by her relatives for converting to Islam.


>>>>>>>>> it seems member Roy missed the point made in my last post. I am not interested to insult anyone in this forum or "Indian constitution".

For many months in this forum I was "Told" by many members religion/Islam is the cause for many social ills. I have consistently said, religion does not approve mistreating women in any share or form. I do not think the founding fathers of India even "Approved" of making lives of Indian women miserable either. However good laws needs strong institutions of apply those laws on people who violate those laws.

Here (IN Muktomona) people tend to focus on people who violate religious laws and attempt to make a case against religion. However the SAME sets of members will bring who different argument when I make the same case against a secular country like India. Then it becomes a "Family problem" not religion or secularism.

Which shows most of our "Mukto-monas" are NOT able to get away from their per-conceived notions about issues we discuss. 


There are thousands of incidents like this in Bangladesh


>>>>>>>>> I am sure there is. When we discuss those issues, many members will not shy away from blaming "Islam" or "Jihadi" Muslims for it.

The irony is we get furious when we see double standards. Most of us don't realize that, when we make comments based on emotion (Instead of facts on ground!) we do the same!!

Just to "Counter" my comment on "India", we see comments on "Honor killing" (Which has NO relations to Islam, rather a part of many cultures across the globe), Bangladesh and to top it off' " I see nothing unusual here" and "their anger is quite justifiable in this case".


It does not matter if the injustice taking place in India, Bangladesh, Myanmar or Palestine. Those of us who have some level of education should have the backbone to call it what it is. If it is a wrong thing, we need to unitedly say, it is WRONG!!

If some of us silently or vocally support wrongdoing to other people, it is hard to stand up against oppression. That is why it is so hard for us to remove oppression in our own country. We should not tolerate intolerance.

Lastly, according to the report, it was the neighbors who did not approve of the conversion.

My two cents.....


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 5:45 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
Mr. Q. Rahman is blaming the secular constitution of India for not protecting the girl, who was punished ('beaten') by her relatives for converting to Islam. Mr. Chakraborty, on the other hand, first supported the Indian secular constitution, and then undermined it.  None of these comments make any sense to me. I am not sure why they are trying to connect secularism and constitution with this story, except to undermine them. As I see - this is a family issue, and the family, obviously, could not approve girl's action, and they were angry, which resulted into such a punishment. I see nothing unusual here. Do you?

Let me remind Mr. Rahman and others that - this is not the so called 'honor-killing' issue of the Hindu society. If it were, I could join hands with Mr. Rahman and others. 
 
There are thousands of incidents like this in Bangladesh. I am sure, Mr. Chakraborty and Mr. Rahman are aware of many of them. Often I hear stories like – adolescent schoolgirls abducted and converted to Islam. Most cases - these girls are lost forever from their families and friends. So,  their anger is quite justifiable in this case. There is no happy ending in any of these families.
 
I could care less if someone made a conscious decision about his/her religion. Unfortunately, that's not the case; most of these girls are very young, and unable to make conscious judgment at that age. Many of them admitted, in the later part of their lives, that it was a wrong decision in the first place. But, what good that could bring in their lives - nothing? The only way this process can be fair - if it is open-ended, and uniformly supported by all religious communities. Can this happen with the honor-killing system in the society? I doubt.
 
Jiten Roy


--- On Tue, 8/28/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 9:04 PM

 
People are not the state. Indian state has a secular constitution that does not endorse such killings, but a state with strict Shariah law will probably will commit such killings officially. Ambedkar, a great scholar and one of the chief architects of the Indian constitution, led a mass conversion of 50,000 dalits to Buddhism. It might not have been possible in any other country. It does not mean that leaders of the secular parties are all free from evils. The then secular leaders showed total passivity during (or maybe even indirectly supported) the demolition of the Babri mosque. Many a time (I still remember Meerat riot) state police have participated in communal riots to kill Muslims.

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
Maybe, you should check out what Muslims do to their own brothers and sisters when they abandon their religion? They get killed or stoned! Get off your high horse, bro!
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
Thanks God for Indian press. The real situation of "Secular India" where people are NOT free to pick a religion of their choice.


Shalom!



 
 

 
 

India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam

 
Vinita Shaw and her sister both say they were beaten by neighbors for converting from Hinduism to Islam, and here I was thinking that it was only Muslims who had issues with those of their (former) co-religionists who leave the faith!
Vinita Shaw and her sister both say they were beaten by neighbors for converting from Hinduism to Islam, and here I was thinking that it was only Muslims who had issues with those of their (former) co-religionists who leave the faith!
What if they were Muslim?:

Sisters beaten up for converting to Islam

by Arshad Ali (Indian Express)
A south Kolkata girl, who has converted from Hinduism to Islam, and her sister who is also keen to convert, were beaten up allegedly by the associates of the local councillor. The girls have also alleged police inaction.
Vinita Shaw, 25, a resident of 57/2B Bondel Road, adopted Islam in December last year. Her new name, vide an affidavit by a first class magistrate is, Taiba Khatoon (The Indian Express possesses a copy of the affidavit). Her sister, 18-year-old Pooja Shaw, too, expressed her wish to follow suit last week.
The conversion apparently did not go down too well with their neighbours, who, on June 8, beat up the two sisters and their family, including her mother and brother, with bricks and rods.
"We are a very poor family. My father is paralytic and bed-ridden. These people started a fight on the pretext that we dirty the place too much. But when they started beating us, they said unmentionable things as I have converted," said Vinita. She also alleged that both sisters were abused and molested.
Vinita also claimed harassment at the hands of the police."I went to the police station with a written complaint against Asim Bera, Tapas Bera, Abhishek Malakar, Krishna Ray, Akash Ray, Manoj Singh, Bikas Singh and Birju Paswan but investigating officer D D Roy Chowdhury tore it up and wrote it himself. He even refused to give me a copy of the complaint and when I insisted, he asked the other officer there to give it to me, referring to me with unmentionable names," she said.
 
  

     
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 






__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___

[mukto-mona] There is a big difference between the Bamiyan Buddha statues and the Babri Mosque.



(Re-sent with a name correction)
 
There is a big difference between the Bamiyan Buddha statues and the Babri Mosque. Against the Bamiyan Buddha statues, there is no allegation such as them being built by destroying any Muslim place of worship at those sites. Against the Babri Mosque, there are allegations that it was built by destroying a Hindu place of worship at that site. Mr. Chakrabarty, please do not say that the Muslim invaders did not desecrate any such thing as the birthplace of Ram in India. And please do some thinking before making the kind of comparison that you have made here.
 
Now, I think it was wrong to destroy the Babri Mosque the way it was done. The secular government of India should have done some honest research to verify the allegation against the mosque, and convince the parties in dispute to take an amicable action together. Appeasing is almost always insincere. The Muslim-appeasing Congress did not have a sincere support for the Muslims on this issue; that is why they allowed the destruction of the mosque.
 
As for the sisters being beaten for converting to Muslim, it was utterly foolish to so quickly use that to criticize the secular nature of India. There are big names like A. R. Rahman and Kabir Suman who are enjoying all the respect in India after converting to Muslim from Hindu. There are good and bad people everywhere, and crimes do happen even in the best possible places in the world. What matters is how the system handles the crime, depending upon the gravity of the crime.
 
Sukhamaya Bain
 
======================================
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
 
Please read Bamiyan Buddha instead of Bamiyan Mosque. Sorry for the inconvenience. 
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:34 PM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I have high regards for the indian constitution. The state, those who run the state, and the people are different things. All people are not equally enlightened. Similarly all rulers are not fair. It is a well known fact that the Congress govt. did not stop the demolition of the historic structure. It is comparable to the destruction of the Bamiyan mosque by the Taliban. Saying this does not mean that I have undermined the Indian constitution. In Meerat riot, state police (I think called consabulary) took the sides of the Hindu goons. You can come with more examples. Even in the beating case, the police was not fair. 
 
=================================
..............................................................
 

  

India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam 

 
Vinita Shaw and her sister both say they were beaten by neighbors for converting from Hinduism to Islam, and here I was thinking that it was only Muslims who had issues with those of their (former) co-religionists who leave the faith!
What if they were Muslim?:

Sisters beaten up for converting to Islam

by Arshad Ali (Indian Express)
A south Kolkata girl, who has converted from Hinduism to Islam, and her sister who is also keen to convert, were beaten up allegedly by the associates of the local councillor. The girls have also alleged police inaction.
Vinita Shaw, 25, a resident of 57/2B Bondel Road, adopted Islam in December last year. Her new name, vide an affidavit by a first class magistrate is, Taiba Khatoon (The Indian Express possesses a copy of the affidavit). Her sister, 18-year-old Pooja Shaw, too, expressed her wish to follow suit last week.
The conversion apparently did not go down too well with their neighbours, who, on June 8, beat up the two sisters and their family, including her mother and brother, with bricks and rods.
"We are a very poor family. My father is paralytic and bed-ridden. These people started a fight on the pretext that we dirty the place too much. But when they started beating us, they said unmentionable things as I have converted," said Vinita. She also alleged that both sisters were abused and molested.
Vinita also claimed harassment at the hands of the police."I went to the police station with a written complaint against Asim Bera, Tapas Bera, Abhishek Malakar, Krishna Ray, Akash Ray, Manoj Singh, Bikas Singh and Birju Paswan but investigating officer D D Roy Chowdhury tore it up and wrote it himself. He even refused to give me a copy of the complaint and when I insisted, he asked the other officer there to give it to me, referring to me with unmentionable names," she said.
  


__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___