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Sunday, September 9, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] RE: [india-unity] Wife beating is good: We need more such justices!



Did this braggart lady ever have an antenna?

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 7:41 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

I usually assume most people as smart and intelligent. Then I reshape my view after they open their mouths. Interactions with people in this forum made me conclude that most people possess average intelligence, and some people have superior or exceptional intelligence. The problem is - those who have average intelligence do not know it, and they always pretend to be super smart, and make a mess out of everything.

It is pretty clear from the remarks of the Judge that - he is trying to bend the law to protect the interest of the woman. The solution is divorce, but the woman does not want it. She has built the family with her husband, but after divorce she will be on the street. If the husband goes to the jail - who will earn the living for the family? If the Judge punishes the man in some other way, he will divorce her later on. I do not know how divorce works in a Hindu family now a days, but, in case of a Muslim family – 'Tin-Talak' will be enough for a divorce. Judge knows that woman's condition will not be any better outside this marriage. So he is suggesting her to stay in the marriage. I have seen - when children become grownup, they protest and come forward to protect their mother and this kind of offense does not occur anymore. As a woman from that part of the world, Farida should know better. But, her antenna missed the signal.

 

Jiten Roy

 

--- On Sun, 9/9/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: [india-unity] Wife beating is good: We need more such justices!
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 8:06 PM


 
I have quoted from the translation of the 'Holy Quran' by A. J. Arberry.  I am sure that this schizophrenic shrew does not have more reputation as a scholar than he had.  Wittgenstein wrote, "Every person is known by the language he/she uses."  This lady's nature is revealed by her substandard language.  Besides while misogyny is permitted in the 'revealed' literature, how can the legal system be free from it.  To an atheist, no religious decree is above criticism.  I, for one, am a beef devouring Hindu and spare no chance to bash any fool who believes that he is guided by divine commands.

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
 
           Once again, Jiten Roy, Kamal Das, Sukhamoy, et al, prove incontrovertibly their obssessive communal hatred against Islam and the Muslims.  Their pretensions of so called 'atheism' and the interminable talk of 'religion' are really nothing but eye-wash to hide their communal hatred.  No matter what the issue or the topic of conversation is, at mukto-mona it is a closed-door discussion of how pernicious the Muslims are.

               Here the topic was the misogynist behavior of a Justice at a Family Court in Karnataka, India.


       How horrible the Muslims are in general, or how the Almighty Allah has decreed in the Qur'an was not the subject of discussion. [BTW I have written about this particular verse in the qur'an and presented scholarly paper at International Conferences to appreciative, erudite audience.  //"beat them" is a wrong translation of the verb 'dharaba' in the context of the ayat's internal language.]  I would plead with Kamal Das not to drum-beat his superfluous knowledge about this on this thread. It is impossible to deal with "chhagoler nadi" knowledge with a straight face.  He will only succeed in  encouraging Q. Rahman (who has no training in Arabic grammar) to present endless quotes from the Qur'an which he gathered from the internet.  And the whole shenanigan of Islam-bashing v. Islam-defending will take off for the umpteenth time for the 10th or 11th year running.


To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: kamalctgu@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 07:34:46 +0600
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: [india-unity] Wife beating is good: We need more such justices!


 
Almighty Allah has advised wife beating in the 'Holy Quran'(IV:35-40).  In it he says, men are the managers of the affairs of women...righteous women are therefore obedient,...and those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them."


On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 


The whole issue is a mess. I have a very vivid memory of a case, in which, a Muslim family, one of our neighbors, migrated from Murshidabad, West Bengal, to our village in Bangladesh, used to beat his wife every now and then. They are married for at least 30 years, have 5 children. One early morning, that lady started to cry with unbearable loud tone, which everybody could hear. We were thinking that may be something happened to one of her children. But, it was not so. We learned that her husband given her 'Tin-Talak (divorce)' for resisting his beating, and thrown her out of the house with her little kids. Now, she has no place to go, as her parents' family is in India. I was very young at that time, but – thought - what could be worse, tolerating the beating or getting divorced for resisting it. She had to resort to begging after the divorce.

The point of the story is women are so dependent on men in those societies that it is hard to think what's good for them. The solution is obviously – self-reliance of women, and we are nowhere near there.  What could we do in the mean time? I have no opinion in this case, except to say that the judge may be weighing on the consequences of the woman after the punishment of her husband. I know – law does not care about the consequences, but – the interpretation of the law may consider it knowingly or unknowingly.

Jiten Roy
--- On Fri, 9/7/12, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:


From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] RE: [india-unity] Wife beating is good: We need more such justices!
To: "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, September 7, 2012, 2:53 PM


 
             The instance of the Hon'ble Justice making those obscene remarks are unacceptable and, to echo the the letter-writers' point, downright unconstitutional.
  I have heard that wife-beating cases in US Family Courts do not fare much better and the offenders end up receiving a slap-on-the-wrist treatment. Anybody who thinks misogyny is not a global problem is mistaken.  It is an on-going struggle, alas!

               Farida

NB.  Who are the signatories of this excellently written letter?  This should be widely distributed.

To: india-unity@yahoogroups.com
From: ggjey1@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 11:56:56 -0400
Subject: [india-unity] Wife beating is good: We need more such justices!

 

To

The Hon'ble Chief Justice

High Court of Karnataka

 

 

Hon'ble Chief Justice Shri Vikramjit Sen,

 

We are writing to you in the context of the recent media reports regarding Hon'ble Justice Bhaktavatsala's verbal comments in open Court. We are bringing these comments to your notice because they do not seem to be in consonance with the oath Justice Bhaktavatsala has taken under Article 219 to 'bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of India and to duly and faithfully and to the best of my ability, knowledge, and judgment perform the duties of my office without fear and favour, affection or ill-will and to uphold the Constitution and the laws.' The comments attributed to J. Bhaktavatsala are deeply offensive to all right thinking people, lower the dignity and agency of women who constitute literally half the population of this country and betray animus towards women.

 

It has been reported that J. Bhaktavatsala in open court has observed as follwos:

 

1) According to media reports on August 31 2012 Justice Bhaktavatsala stated to a woman litigant in a divorce matter, "Women suffer in all marriages. You are married with two children, and know what it means to suffer as a woman. Yesterday, there was a techie couple who reconciled for the sake of their child. Your husband is doing good business, he will take care of you. Why are you still talking about his beatings? I know you have undergone pain. But that is nothing in front of what you undergo as a woman. I have not undergone such pain. But Madam (Justice BS Indrakala) has."

The Court asked the woman if her parents were present, at which her father walked up to the bench. The judge was reported to have remarked in open court, "Ask your father if he has never beaten your mother!" When the woman said her husband would beat her in the open, in front of everyone, Justice Bhaktavatsala remarked that it was she who was bringing it out in the open. The court was told that the husband would beat her in the middle of the night and had thrown her out of the house.

When the woman's advocate produced photographs showing her swollen face after the beatings, the court said, "You have to adjust. Are you just behind money? There is nothing in your case to argue on merits. You have to give him a divorce or go with him. Have you read about actor Darshan. He spent 30 days in jail after beating his wife. But they are living together now. What is on your mind and what is on your agenda?" The court directed the couple to go out and talk to each other. (Bangalore Mirror, August 31,2012)

 

2) In another case, a young  female advocate was citing the allegations against the husband, Justice Bhaktavatsala stopped her midway and asked, "Are you married?" When she replied in the negative, the judge said, "You are unfit to argue this case. You do not know real life. Why are you arguing like this? He is your (client's) partner, not a stranger. Family matters should be argued only by married people, not spinsters. You should only watch. Bachelors and spinsters watching family court proceedings will start thinking if there is any need to marry at all. Marriage is not like a public transport system. You better get married and you will get very good experience to argue such cases."

(Bangalore Mirror,  August 10, 2012)

 

Our concern is that these comments apart from lowering the dignity of the High Court of Karnataka are also indicative of a judicial mindset which leads to judicial pronouncements which are not in keeping with the Constitution. In particular, the Constitution protects intimate choices with respect to one's partner transcending barriers of caste, class and religion, regardless of parental opposition. In Writ Petition (HC) No.67/2011, Avinash v. State of Karnataka, J. Bhaktavatsala has expressed his strong opinion against love marriages and by extension the choices made by young women about whom to marry are summarily brushed aside as choices made because of 'hormonal imbalances'. To quote from the judgment;

"In our opinion, the girls below the age of 21 years are not capable of forming a rational judgment as to suitability of the boy, who is in love. It is relevant to mention that those girls, who are suffering from harmonal imbalance easily fall prey to the boys and fall in love, marry and repent at leisure. The parents of the girl are interested in selecting a suitable boy and see that the girl leads a happy married life. Since the Hindu Marriage Act does not deal with love marriages, in our view, it is a high time that the Parliament shall take note of the sufferings and turmoil of such girls and their parents and amend the law suitably. We perpetuate our memory as to the episode of the famous Telugu Cine actor Sri Chiranjivi's daughter's love marriage. Hence, we suggest that in the case of love affair of a girl, who is below the age of 21 years, there shall be a condition that the parents of the girl should approve the marriage, otherwise such marriages shall be declared void or voidable."

In particular, Justice Bhaktavatsala's above mentioned judicial pronouncement undermines the very idea of India as a nation in which all persons are free to form consensual intimate relationships with others of their choice regardless of narrow considerations of gender, caste, religion and class. If India is to indeed move beyond being a society riven by sharp divisions of caste and religion, the antidote lies in the choices made by young people to love across these narrow domestic walls, regardless of parental opposition.

As Dr. Ambedkar noted:

I am convinced that the real remedy is inter-marriage. Fusion of blood can alone create the feeling of being kith and kin, and unless this feeling of kinship, of being kindred, becomes paramount, the separatist feeling- the feeling of being aliens- created by Caste will not vanish.

                                                                                      (Annihilation of Caste)

 

The citizens of India look to the Court to protect their right to equality, dignity and liberty. Judges must keep this constitutional mandate in mind of being the protectors of the Constitution, even as they perform their duty  to interpret the law. Thus judges do not have a free reign to give expression to their own private morality or even the morality of the wider public, but rather have a duty to interpret the law in the light of the Constitution. Judges are bound by what the Founding Father of the Indian Constitution, Dr. B.R. Ambedkar describes as constitutional morality.  Dr. Ambedkar quoted Grote, the historian of Greece, who had said:

"The diffusion of constitutional morality, not merely among the majority of any community but throughout the whole, is an indispensable condition of government at once free and peaceable; since even any powerful and obstinate minority may render the working of a free institution impracticable without being strong enough to conquer the ascendancy for themselves."

After quoting Grote, Dr. Ambedkar added:

"While everybody recognised the necessity of diffusion of constitutional morality for the peaceful working of the democratic constitution, there are two things interconnected with it which are not, unfortunately, generally recognised. One is that the form of administration must be appropriate to and in the same sense as the form of the Constitution. The other is that it is perfectly possible to pervert the Constitution, without changing its form by merely changing its form of administration and to make it inconsistent and opposed to the spirit of the Constitution. ......The question is, can we presume such a diffusion of constitutional morality? Constitutional morality is not a natural sentiment. It has to be cultivated. We must realise that our people have yet to learn it. Democracy in India is only a top dressing on an Indian soil which is essentially undemocratic."

 [Constitutional Assembly Debates: Official Reports Vol.VII: November 4, 1948, page 38],

 

 J. Bhaktavatsala in making those above statements, has clearly overstepped the bounds and limits of constitutional morality as described by Dr. Ambedkar. We are extraordinarily disappointed and let down by the fact that a high constitutional functionary has through his reported comments and judicial pronouncements betrayed the enormous trust vested in him. There are serious apprehensions that in the constitutionally mandated area of non-discrimination on grounds of gender, J. Bhaktavatsala will not decide in accordance with the constitution but rather in accordance with his private morality.

 

We ask that you consider strong action in your capacity as a Chief Justice to send out the message that no Judge can so easily betray the mandate of the Constitution to ensure equality of gender. Judges have a duty to protect the mandate of Article 14 of the constitution which guarantees equality and non-discrimination and Article 15 which guarantees that there shall be no discrimination on the basis of gender. Justice Bhaktavatsala's comments and action in court in condoning violence against women, in requiring that unmarried women are not capable of arguing matrimonial cases and comments even about Justice Indrakala, his sister Judge are extremely gender biased and discriminating against women. This bias against women is reflected not only in his statements in court but also in his judgments. Gender bias is ordinarily defined as a tendency to think about people primarily on the basis of their sex. In the judicial system, gender bias results in decisions or actions that are based upon preconceived notions of sexual roles rather than on fair and impartial appraisals of any situation. Gender bias must be eliminated in the judicial system not only because it influences the perception of women in the courtroom, but also because it undermines the manner in which courts apply the law and thus affects the substantive rights of the parties.

 

In the interest of upholding the principles of our Constitution, we would request the following:

1.      That J. Bhaktavatsala issue an unconditional public apology for his gender biased and offensive remarks.

2.      That the all appeals from the judgments of the Family Court classified as MFA(FC) are removed from J. Bhaktavatsala's docket. 

3.      Set up a Commission to look at gender bias within the judiciary in Karnataka

 

We would also request you to take serious note of these comments and ensure that in your capacity as the Chief Justice, no judge of the Karnataka High Court again gives any room for such gross insensitivity to all forms of discrimination based on gender.

 

 













































__._,_.___


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[mukto-mona] Re: November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans

I am beginning to doubt the veracity of Abe Lincoln's comment which was posted in another thread by a blind supporter of Rush Limbaugh.

I fully agree with Farida Majid on Ronald Reagan. Reagan maybe a hero to millions of illiterate Americans but beneath his Hollywood demeanor he was a dimwitted politician. He made deals with Iran's Khomeini begging them not to release the American Embassy hostages before Nov 1980 election. He intentionally jacked up the interest to 12-14% so that his rich Southern California friends can loan the U.S. Federal government the money to cover the deficit. He blamed the Democrats for expanding the government and he promised to American voters that if he is elected, he will shrink the government but look what he did. He made the government big, infused money into Pentagon, and consequently ballooning the Federal budget. Of course, Reagan's rich friends were there to loan the money to the government because they purchased those bonds getting 12-14% return annually. How clever of Reagan to help out his rich friends!!!

Republican Party is for the upper income people. I hope this Rush Limbaughite in this forum is a rich guy rubbing shoulder with Bush, Romney, etc. He is more Royal than the King and more Pious than the Pope.

Is he not the same person who predicted the demise of Obama candidacy in 2008 in this forum? Talk about the shame? This headless Republican lover has none.

--- In mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@...> wrote:
>
> You are entitled to have your views, Dr. Das.
>  
> I think greed is the mother's milk of success. But, you cannot have success all the time; some greed can bring failure.  That's normal.  No risk - no gain.
>
>  
> Jiten Roy
>  
> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@...>
> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans
> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 8:30 PM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Duty of the state is to control the greed of the rich, not to encourage it.  Their is no point in quoting Lincoln.  He might have been a civil war hero.  He was not much of anything else.
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@...> wrote:
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  “Sometimes ignorant people can make a change also, and when they do, it isn’t good”  â€" Rush Limbaugh
> "You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking away people’s initiative and independence. You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."
> --Abraham Lincoln
>
> --- On Sat, 9/8/12, Jaffor <jaffor@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Jaffor <jaffor@...>
> Subject: [mukto-mona] November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans
> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, September 8, 2012, 11:19 PM
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
> The U.S. presidential election is less than 60 days from now. Both the Tampa and Charlotte conventions are history now. In a new Reuters/Ipsos poll released today (September 8, 2012) Obama-Biden ticket is gaining popularity among American voters despite a disappointing job growth stat published a day ago. A majority of American voters now agree that the job growth will be anemic going forward notwithstanding an economic meltdown brought on by George W. Bush's presidency in 2008. The tax code favored by Republicans since 2000 has helped the greedy rich at the expense of the middle class and poor folks. Americans are now cognizance of this truth and they don't want to put a Wall Street vulture by the name Mitt Romney to the White House.  This is the same guy who does not want to pay a fair tax. Some even say he is a tax dodger.
> In my view, as election time nears, more and more American voters of independent streak would side with the Democrats and will defeat the God-fearing Republicans. In this day and age of fast Internet, it is becoming very difficult to engage in disinformation and misinformation campaign. The fact-Check folks are ever alert now telling the media who is spreading lies and dirt.
> In 2008, a small but vocal minority of Mukto-Mona forum opposed the candidacy of Obama by falsely thinking that Obama was a closet Muslim.  Obama's middle name gave them a jolt. One of the M-M forum-goers even made some boastful comment to the effect that his American friends in New York City have told him that a black man is unelectable for the highest political position. How wrong was he?
> I am very surprised that these folks are very quiet these days. One of them is however very critical of Michelle Obama.
> Incidentally, Mrs. Obama is the most radical First Lady this nation had ever witnessed. She took a shovel and helped dig the dirt in the backyard of White House with the help of kids and turned a small plot into a beautiful community garden.
> All the other first ladies of last thirty years such as Nancy Reagan, Barbara Bush, Hillary Clinton, Laura Bush, etc. were all dolled up never venturing out in the backyard of White House. But Michelle Obama is a different breed who dance to hear own tune. She is pushing for changing the food habits of grade school students. Her initiatives to feed the students more vegetables and fruits have been hailed by many nutritionists. Thus, she has a vision for America. Contrast this, if you will, with the demeanor of Anne Romney whose hobby is dressage (an equestrian sport of yesteryears). There is no comparison between Michelle Obama and Anne Romney, really. They exist in different realm!  One is a working mother and the other is a sheltered rich housewife. One is a visionary like her husband and the other is a dull housewife.
> I think since it is the season of presidential politics in America, Mukto-Mona forum-goers should discuss endlessly who they support and why they support one candidate over the other.
> All the poll results thus far indicate that Obama may beat Romney but there is no guarantee.  Political wind may change very fast.  Debate performance, economic data, etc. may have a profound impact on election results.  Therefore, do not pay much attention to what I write here.  Give your opinion and make this forum rich with your erudite remarks.
>




------------------------------------

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****************************************************

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Re: [mukto-mona] November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans



"I think greed is the mother's milk of success."

Not at any cost though! You should not sell your mother for your deadly greed. In another words, we should not pollute our mother nature to make money. If we do, it will catch up with us soon or later! Money would not help us to sustain the life but less greed and less pollution would!
-SD

"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans

 
You are entitled to have your views, Dr. Das.
 
I think greed is the mother's milk of success. But, you cannot have success all the time; some greed can bring failure.  That's normal.  No risk - no gain.
 
Jiten Roy
 
--- On Sun, 9/9/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 8:30 PM

 
Duty of the state is to control the greed of the rich, not to encourage it.  Their is no point in quoting Lincoln.  He might have been a civil war hero.  He was not much of anything else.

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
 "Sometimes ignorant people can make a change also, and when they do, it isn't good"  – Rush Limbaugh
"You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence. You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."
--Abraham Lincoln


--- On Sat, 9/8/12, Jaffor <jaffor@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jaffor <jaffor@gmail.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 8, 2012, 11:19 PM


 
The U.S. presidential election is less than 60 days from now. Both the Tampa and Charlotte conventions are history now. In a new Reuters/Ipsos poll released today (September 8, 2012) Obama-Biden ticket is gaining popularity among American voters despite a disappointing job growth stat published a day ago. A majority of American voters now agree that the job growth will be anemic going forward notwithstanding an economic meltdown brought on by George W. Bush's presidency in 2008. The tax code favored by Republicans since 2000 has helped the greedy rich at the expense of the middle class and poor folks. Americans are now cognizance of this truth and they don't want to put a Wall Street vulture by the name Mitt Romney to the White House.  This is the same guy who does not want to pay a fair tax. Some even say he is a tax dodger.
In my view, as election time nears, more and more American voters of independent streak would side with the Democrats and will defeat the God-fearing Republicans. In this day and age of fast Internet, it is becoming very difficult to engage in disinformation and misinformation campaign. The fact-Check folks are ever alert now telling the media who is spreading lies and dirt.
In 2008, a small but vocal minority of Mukto-Mona forum opposed the candidacy of Obama by falsely thinking that Obama was a closet Muslim.  Obama's middle name gave them a jolt. One of the M-M forum-goers even made some boastful comment to the effect that his American friends in New York City have told him that a black man is unelectable for the highest political position. How wrong was he?
I am very surprised that these folks are very quiet these days. One of them is however very critical of Michelle Obama.
Incidentally, Mrs. Obama is the most radical First Lady this nation had ever witnessed. She took a shovel and helped dig the dirt in the backyard of White House with the help of kids and turned a small plot into a beautiful community garden.
All the other first ladies of last thirty years such as Nancy Reagan, Barbara Bush, Hillary Clinton, Laura Bush, etc. were all dolled up never venturing out in the backyard of White House. But Michelle Obama is a different breed who dance to hear own tune. She is pushing for changing the food habits of grade school students. Her initiatives to feed the students more vegetables and fruits have been hailed by many nutritionists. Thus, she has a vision for America. Contrast this, if you will, with the demeanor of Anne Romney whose hobby is dressage (an equestrian sport of yesteryears). There is no comparison between Michelle Obama and Anne Romney, really. They exist in different realm!  One is a working mother and the other is a sheltered rich housewife. One is a visionary like her husband and the other is a dull housewife.
I think since it is the season of presidential politics in America, Mukto-Mona forum-goers should discuss endlessly who they support and why they support one candidate over the other.
All the poll results thus far indicate that Obama may beat Romney but there is no guarantee.  Political wind may change very fast.  Debate performance, economic data, etc. may have a profound impact on election results.  Therefore, do not pay much attention to what I write here.  Give your opinion and make this forum rich with your erudite remarks.





__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
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Re: [mukto-mona] Turkish Abortion Debate Renewed After Nevin Yildirim Beheads Alleged Rapist



Not in the rape case, dear! I do deal with human brains every day. Trust me on that!
-SD
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Turkish Abortion Debate Renewed After Nevin Yildirim Beheads Alleged Rapist

 
In sexual encounters among a man and a woman, the first signal is delivered by the female brain, the scientists say.  I hate to deliver the details.  Consider the brain as the most important organ in such encounters.

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
We know exactly how a guy can repetitively commit such crime in some remote villages of Turkey or Bangladesh. It is seldom that an woman would be found as the real sexual predator of such crime.
-SD
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 3:17 AM

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Turkish Abortion Debate Renewed After Nevin Yildirim Beheads Alleged Rapist

 
If she had no wish to be 'violated', how could the guy repeat the offence?  A murder might have been committed to eliminate the voice of the 'offender.

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 4:19 AM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I am not a psychologist but I can understand her anger for being violated so many times. As we can guess, the subject being a taboo, she lost her mind and did not care whether she lives or die. She was not satisfied with a simple killing. She went all the way the to behead this guy and make her point! I bet the guy really tormented this innocent looking lady.
-SD


 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2012 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Turkish Abortion Debate Renewed After Nevin Yildirim Beheads Alleged Rapist

 
When state does not protect or defend your human rights, the victim may take law into her hands. By doing this the victim further endangers herself or himself. But it is good for the society as the society gets a jolt and makes it rethink about the laws it has.

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2012 6:29 AM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Turkish Abortion Debate Renewed After Nevin Yildirim Beheads Alleged Rapist

 
My comment: Good riddance! There is line people should not cross!
-SD

A 26-year-old Turkish woman, who was impregnated by her rapist, reportedly shot and beheaded her alleged attacker to protect her honor. The case has forced the country into a new round in the intensifying debate over abortion.
Nevin Yildirim, a mother of two from Turkey's Yalvac district, faces charges of murder for the August killing of 35-year-old Nurettin Gider. Yildirim, according to CNN, is at least five months pregnant and claims she was rape-impregnated by Gider.
Yildirim told police that Gider, a father of two who was married to her husband's aunt, first raped her in January, when her husband left town to work a seasonal job.
Yildirim said Gider threatened to kill her children if she alerted anyone to the crime. The rapes allegedly continued over the course of the next several months and Gider reportedly threatened to publish photos he took of Yildirim's pregnant body if she did not do as he said, Turkish broadcaster DHA reported.
On Aug. 28, Yildirim claims spotted Gider climbing up a wall behind her house and grabbed a rifle that was hanging on the wall.
"I knew he was going to rape me again," Yildirim said at an Aug. 30 preliminary hearing.
Yildirim allegedly shot Gider twice and chased him from her property. She claimed in court he was armed at the time.
"He fell on the ground. He started cussing," she said. "I shot his sexual organ this time. He became quiet. I knew he was dead. I then cut his head off."
Witnesses told police they saw Yildirim walk into the village square, carrying Gider's bloody head by his hair.
"Don't talk behind my back, don't play with my honor," Yildirim allegedly told witnesses in the square as she threw Gider's head to the ground. "Here is the head of the man who played with my honor."
Authorities arrived on the scene shortly thereafter and Yildirim was taken into custody without incident.
"He kept saying that he would tell everyone [about the rape]," Yildirim told authorities, according to Doğan News Agency. "My daughter will start school this year. Everyone would have insulted my children. Now no one can."
"I saved my honor," she added. "They will now call [her children] 'the kids of the women who saved her honor.'"
According to CNN, Yildirim went to a health clinic for an abortion prior to the murder but was turned away because she was 14 weeks pregnant at the time. In Turkey, abortion is only permitted during the first 10 weeks of pregnancy. Anything beyond that requires a special circumstance.
Turkey's abortion debate has now been re-kindled as the public prosecutor's office considers Yildirim's request. Authorities are waiting for experts to weigh in on her mental stability.
"The extremity of Nevin's actions show the extent of the trauma the rape has caused," Dr. Gürsel Öztunalı Kayır, Foundation for Women's Solidarity, told International Business Times. "We shouldn't be distracted by the murder; if she wants to have an abortion following months of abuse, she should have the right."
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, however, considers abortion "murder" and wants the practice outlawed. Melih Gökçek, mayor of the capital, Ankara, supports the proposed ban, saying a mother who considers abortion should "kill herself instead and not let the child bear the brunt of her mistake," IBT reported.
Women's groups in Turkey consider Yildirim a heroine. The case also resonates in the United States, where abortion remains a topic of heated debate.




 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS












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Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Number of U.S. mosques up 74% since 2000 & Proof of Religious Tolerance & Secularism in USA .....



I think people like Hannan might be dreaming about putting bis-millah right in the US constitution if he could. These people want all non-Islamic countries to adopt secularism to accommodate Muslims' needs but they would not demand such secularism for Islamic countries. There you see all sorts of double talks.

More mosques and mandirs do not really tickle me! It will be really great if more Muslims show their talents in the faculties of Science, Medicine and Arts of this country of the free and the brave. Making more black Muslim converts praying five times per day would not bring any tangible value to Islam or Muslim world. My question would be: "Where is the beef?"
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Re: Number of U.S. mosques up 74% since 2000 & Proof of Religious Tolerance & Secularism in USA .....

 
                  This is an excellent case FOR secularism and should be used as a poke in the eyes of S A Hannan and other Jamaati liars, defamers and enemies of secularism in Bangladesh.  Secularism does not mean 'religionless' La Deen or dharmoheen.  From governance point of view, secularism is the most religion-friendly principle.

Secularism has a longer and more authentic history in Bangladesh than in the United States (whose beginnings were steeped in Puritanism until the founding of the USA).

              We must get rid of 'bismillah' from the Constitution of Bangladesh because it is a piece of blasphemy (resorting to willful and illegal denial of others' rights in the name of Allah).  All good Muslims should reject this blasphemous idea. It sullies the glorious egalitarian principle of Sunna and is against the tradition of Muslim history of Bengal.

            Only secularism can constitutionally guarantee freedom of religion to each citizen of Bangladesh.

                        Farida Majid


To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: Syed.Aslam3@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:58:07 -0400
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: Number of U.S. mosques up 74% since 2000 & Proof of Religious Tolerance & Secularism in USA .....

 


Obviously, it has been possible, only because USA is a truly secular country, where the freedom of religion is constitutionally guaranteed ....
  
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." 
 
America is Christian majority country: The majority of Americans (76% to 80%) identify themselves as Christians according to the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), According to the same survey, other religions (including, for example, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam,  and Hindu) collectively make up about 4% of the adult population, another 15% of the adult population claim no religious affiliation, and 5.2% said they did not know, or they refused to reply [ Barry A. Kosmin and Ariela Keysar (2009). "AMERICAN RELIGIOUS IDENTIFICATION SURVEY (ARIS) 2008" (PDF). Hartford, Connecticut, USA: Trinity College. Retrieved 2009-04-01].

The rise of US mosques since 2000, definitely proves the overall religious tolerance of American people, in-spite of adverse propaganda by certain ultra-reactionary groups.
 
The so-called Ground Zero mosque, where proponents of religious freedom clashed with conservative politicians and the families of few 9/11 victims for nearly two years, finally opened without controversy (September 21, 2011). A mosque at the edge of Ground Zero is  much more than a house of worship. It is the ultimate expression of the freedom of religion and secularism, that people enjoy in America. 

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 9:47 PM, Mohiuddin Anwar <mohiuddin@netzero.net> wrote:

Very good and encouraging news indeed for American muslims.

 

Number of U.S. mosques up 74% since 2000

By Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY


 
WASHINGTON � The number of Islamic places of worship in the United States soared 74% in the past decade.
  • Imam Omar Abu Namous, right, leads a prayer service at the Islamic Center of New York. A new study finds New York has more mosques than any other state in the U.S.
    2002 photo by Joe Kohen, AP
    Imam Omar Abu Namous, right, leads a prayer service at the Islamic Center of New York. A new study finds New York has more mosques than any other state in the U.S.
2002 photo by Joe Kohen, AP
Imam Omar Abu Namous, right, leads a prayer service at the Islamic Center of New York. A new study finds New York has more mosques than any other state in the U.S.
While protests against new mosques in New York, Tennessee and California made headlines, the overall number of mosques quietly rose from 1,209 in 2000 to 2,106 in 2010.
And most of their leaders say American society is not hostile to Islam, according to a comprehensive census ofU.S. mosques and survey of imams, mosque presidents and board members released Wednesday.
"This is a very healthy community," said lead researcher and study author Ihsan Bagby, an associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky.
They're also very engaged: The study finds "98% of mosque leaders say Muslims should be involved in American institutions and 91% agree that Muslims should be involved in politics."
The study � The American Mosque 2011 � was sponsored by the Hartford Institute for Religion Research (Hartford Seminary), the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies, as well as the nation's largest Islamic civic and religious groups, including the Islamic Society of North America and the Council on American-Islamic Relations.
Muslims feared being "marginalized, demonized and isolated" after 9/11, said Safaa Zarzour, secretary general of the Islamic Society. But the new study shows they have "kept their eyes on the prize � becoming part of mainstream America."
Major findings include:
�States with the most mosques are New York (257), California (246) and Texas (166).
�Most mosques are in cities, but 28% were in suburban sites in 2010, up from 16% in 2000.
�Mosques are ethnically diverse. The major participants are South Asians, Arabs and African Americans, with growing numbers of new immigrants including Somalis, West Africans and Iraqis. The study did not include Nation of Islam mosques because it is a separate religion.
�Most mosque leaders (87%) say "radicalism and extremism" are not increasing among Muslim youth, "in their own experience." They say the greater challenge is "attracting and keeping them close to the mosque."
All religious groups should be worried about losing their youth, said David Roozen, who directs the Hartford Institute, which overseas an every-decade look at the growth and health of U.S. religious congregations, Faith Communities Today.
Islam will continue to grow, he said, and the old summation of American religion -- Protestant, Catholic, Jew � may soon be revised. But it won't be Protestant, Catholic Muslim, Roozen said.
"The fastest growing group of all is those with no religion," Roozen said.
Although the study does not claim to say how many Muslims are in the USA, Bagby estimates there are 2.6 million "mosque participants" � people who have attended prayers for Eid (a major holy day) or Friday prayers or were considered participants by the mosque leader survey.
Bagby says he reached the number by taking mosque attendance reported by the leadership and multiplying the average number of attendees by the number of mosques.
Bagby's report concludes, "If there are 2.6 million Muslims who pray the Eid prayer, then the total Muslim population should be closer to estimates (by Bagby) of up to 7 million."
No other survey projects even 3 million Muslims in the USA.
For example, a 2010 survey on global Muslim population by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found there were 2.6 million Muslims, including adults and children, in the country. And a 2011 survey by the same research group found 2.75 million Muslims, including 1.8 million adults.
Bagby disputes other studies, saying they underestimate because they are based on random phone interviews and many Muslims, particularly immigrants, will not discuss their religion with a stranger on the phone.
However, the Pew research, which included phone interviews in four languages, also synthesized data from the Census Bureau and immigration authorities. Pew used country-of-birth information with data from surveys on the percentage of people from each country, or group of countries, who belong to various faiths.






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[mukto-mona] কাফরুলে শিশুকে যৌন নির্যাতনের অভিযোগ গৃহশিক্ষক গ্রেফতার



কাফরুলে শিশুকে যৌন নির্যাতনের অভিযোগ  গৃহশিক্ষক গ্রেফতার

লেখক: ইত্তেফাক রিপোর্ট  |  রবিবার, ৯ সেপ্টেম্বর ২০১২, ২৫ ভাদ্র ১৪১৯

রাজধানীর কাফরুলে ১০ বছরের এক শিশুকে বলাত্কারে অভিযোগ ওই বাসার গৃহশিক্ষককে এলাকাবাসী গণপিটুনি দিয়ে 

পুলিশে সোপর্দ করেছে। গৃহশিক্ষক মাওলানা তাজুল ইসলামের (৫০) বিরুদ্ধে শিশুটির বাবা কাফরুল থানায় যৌন হয়রানি ও 

শিশু নির্যাতনের অভিযোগ মামলা করেছেন। 

কাফরুল থানার অফিসার ইনচার্জ (ওসি) আবদুল লতিফ জানান, দেড় বছর আগে তাজুল ইসলামকে ধর্মীয় বিষয় পড়ানোর

জন্য গৃহশিক্ষক নিয়োগ দেন শিশুটির বাবা। আগেও তাজুল শিশুটিকে নির্যাতন করলেও তাকে মেরে ফেলার ভয় দেখিয়ে 

কাউকে বলতে দেয়নি। গত শনিবার রাতে তাজুল শিশুটিকে বলাত্কার করে। এরপরও তাকে কিছু বলতে নিষেধ করে।

শিশুটি মলদ্বারে জ্বালাপোড়া হওয়ায় সে তার বাবা-মাকে জানায়। প্রথমে অস্বীকার করলেও পরে ওই শিক্ষক বিষয়টি স্বীকার করেন। 

পরে আশপাশের লোকজন এসে গৃহশিক্ষক তাজুলকে গণপিটুনি দেয়। পুলিশ এসে তাকে গ্রেফতার করে


http://new.ittefaq.com.bd/news/view/138753/2012-09-09/20

 





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Re: [mukto-mona] November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans



You are entitled to have your views, Dr. Das.

 

I think greed is the mother's milk of success. But, you cannot have success all the time; some greed can bring failure.  That's normal.  No risk - no gain.

 
Jiten Roy
 
--- On Sun, 9/9/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 8:30 PM

 
Duty of the state is to control the greed of the rich, not to encourage it.  Their is no point in quoting Lincoln.  He might have been a civil war hero.  He was not much of anything else.

On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

 "Sometimes ignorant people can make a change also, and when they do, it isn't good"  – Rush Limbaugh

"You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence. You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."
--Abraham Lincoln


--- On Sat, 9/8/12, Jaffor <jaffor@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jaffor <jaffor@gmail.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] November Election: Disappointing News for Rush Limbaugh Fans
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 8, 2012, 11:19 PM


 
The U.S. presidential election is less than 60 days from now. Both the Tampa and Charlotte conventions are history now. In a new Reuters/Ipsos poll released today (September 8, 2012) Obama-Biden ticket is gaining popularity among American voters despite a disappointing job growth stat published a day ago. A majority of American voters now agree that the job growth will be anemic going forward notwithstanding an economic meltdown brought on by George W. Bush's presidency in 2008. The tax code favored by Republicans since 2000 has helped the greedy rich at the expense of the middle class and poor folks. Americans are now cognizance of this truth and they don't want to put a Wall Street vulture by the name Mitt Romney to the White House.  This is the same guy who does not want to pay a fair tax. Some even say he is a tax dodger.
In my view, as election time nears, more and more American voters of independent streak would side with the Democrats and will defeat the God-fearing Republicans. In this day and age of fast Internet, it is becoming very difficult to engage in disinformation and misinformation campaign. The fact-Check folks are ever alert now telling the media who is spreading lies and dirt.
In 2008, a small but vocal minority of Mukto-Mona forum opposed the candidacy of Obama by falsely thinking that Obama was a closet Muslim.  Obama's middle name gave them a jolt. One of the M-M forum-goers even made some boastful comment to the effect that his American friends in New York City have told him that a black man is unelectable for the highest political position. How wrong was he?
I am very surprised that these folks are very quiet these days. One of them is however very critical of Michelle Obama.
Incidentally, Mrs. Obama is the most radical First Lady this nation had ever witnessed. She took a shovel and helped dig the dirt in the backyard of White House with the help of kids and turned a small plot into a beautiful community garden.
All the other first ladies of last thirty years such as Nancy Reagan, Barbara Bush, Hillary Clinton, Laura Bush, etc. were all dolled up never venturing out in the backyard of White House. But Michelle Obama is a different breed who dance to hear own tune. She is pushing for changing the food habits of grade school students. Her initiatives to feed the students more vegetables and fruits have been hailed by many nutritionists. Thus, she has a vision for America. Contrast this, if you will, with the demeanor of Anne Romney whose hobby is dressage (an equestrian sport of yesteryears). There is no comparison between Michelle Obama and Anne Romney, really. They exist in different realm!  One is a working mother and the other is a sheltered rich housewife. One is a visionary like her husband and the other is a dull housewife.
I think since it is the season of presidential politics in America, Mukto-Mona forum-goers should discuss endlessly who they support and why they support one candidate over the other.
All the poll results thus far indicate that Obama may beat Romney but there is no guarantee.  Political wind may change very fast.  Debate performance, economic data, etc. may have a profound impact on election results.  Therefore, do not pay much attention to what I write here.  Give your opinion and make this forum rich with your erudite remarks.



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