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Tuesday, January 1, 2013

[mukto-mona] Re: Gun Control in the USA: Time to Make It Happen

Right Mr. Subimal Chakrabarty.

If anyone thinks we need more security and protection at schools not less, I am with him. But security in school does not have to be mutually exclusive idea of stricter gun laws for the country as a whole.

As I pointed out (in my article), the US homicide rates are 6.9 times higher than rates in similar countries. For example, Gun-homicide rate per capita in the US is almost 30 times that of Britain and Australia, 10 times that of India, and 4 times that of Switzerland. Nobody will say that the USA contains 30 times more crazy people compared to Britain. However, what the US actually has is easy access to guns.

Something is definitely fundamentally wrong in the USA when we see those statistics. I cited an example from Singapore where I lived for more than eight years and I have seen how the stricter gun-laws prohibited mass killings. I mentioned about an incident as well that just happened few hours ago when a 36-year-old man attacked 22 children at a primary school in China. None of the kids died from that incident since the man in China was only carrying a knife. Imagine what would have happened if he could get a semiautomatic rifle as easily as Adam Lanza could. I can give an example from Japan too --

A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

Some points to ponder from the article :

“what about the country at the other end of the spectrum? What is the role of guns in Japan, the developed world’s least firearm-filled nation and perhaps its strictest controller? In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone….

Almost no one in Japan owns a gun. Most kinds are illegal, with onerous restrictions on buying and maintaining the few that are allowed. Even the country’s infamous, mafia-like Yakuza tend to forgo guns; the few exceptions tend to become big national news stories.”

I am not saying every crime will abruptly get resolved if you apply stricter gun control laws. But when you see fifteen of the worst twenty-five mass shootings in the past half century have occurred in the U.S., then you should think twice before defending existing laws. As Michael R. Bloomberg already pointed out something like 48,000 Americans will be killed with illegal guns in the next year” if you do not change the law which I think, definitely inspire gun violence.

Avijit


--- In mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@...> wrote:
>
> More security and protection in school will mean more gun sales. It is American Rifle Association's pet idea. Total ban will be unconstitutional and probably undesirable at this time, but restriction of kinds of fire arms a private individual should be allowed to possess legally is not. All loopholes in the licensing, registration, and trades have not inly to be removed, the processes have to be made stricter also. The government should at least achieve this much in the near future.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 1, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@...> wrote:
>
> > Gun-culture in the USA is going to be hard for people, like me, to understand as I came to this country from a place, where civilians have no right to bear or own arms; only criminals in the society have arms. I do not understand why it is a sport to hunt animals or be a member of the shooting range. I do not understand why no one complains about violent video games and movies, which fill young impressionable minds with violent outbursts, and make them insensitive to violence and killing. I do not understand why people buy or own so many high power-firearms for personal protections. I do not understand why President cannot halt assault weapon sell to the public right away using his executive power, if he is so touched by the recent event in Connecticut. I do not understand why he is asking senators and congressmen, who are influenced by lobbyist, to do it. I do not understand the cowboy culture in America. So, it is easy for me to ask for the ban of these weapons.
> >
> > I know President said when he was first elected to the office that he wanted to see a strong civilian force as powerful as military, if not more. Do we know what did he mean? He wanted to arm civilians for what, except to fight ideological battle or for personal protection? I know - he did not do it, but - that was the intent. I smelt Pol Pot or Stalin or Mao Tse Tung in the intent of the President, and millions of Americans do so.
> >
> > I believe - banning firearm-ownership will only disarm civilians and empower culprits. Haven’t we banned drugs already? Why do we still see thousands of drug related deaths and violence on the street? Now we are begging for legalizing drug. Have we thought about it? I see civilians are ready to surrender their rights, but culprits are not. Have we thought about it?
> >
> > I know �" tragedy happened in Connecticut, but is gun control the solution? Don’t we have laws against access to firearms for mentally challenged people? That did not stop this psychopath to get access to the firearms. I think - we need more security and protection at schools, not less.
> >
> > Jiten Roy
> >
> > --- On Mon, 12/31/12, Avijit Roy <charbak_bd@...> wrote:
> >
> > From: Avijit Roy <charbak_bd@...>
> > Subject: [mukto-mona] Gun Control in the USA: Time to Make It Happen
> > To: "Mukto-mona YahooGroups" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Monday, December 31, 2012, 2:21 PM
> >
> >
> > I wrote a blog just after the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School on the necessity of Gun control in the USA:
> >
> > [Just after the Shikh Temple massacre in Wisconsin a few months ago, Time Magazine published an article titled 'The Case for Gun Control', where the author Fareed Zakaria made a strong case in favor of stricter gun control laws. Although he offered valuable insight concerning the topic, the masses paid him little attention after the media revealed that he had plagiarized a portion of the article.
> >
> > Since then, two more major massacres have taken place. Of them, the recent one was the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School that occurred earlier this month in Newtown, Connecticut, where a man armed with two semiautomatic pistols killed 7 adults and 20 children, most of whom were only six years old. ] Read more from here:
> >
> > http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=1564
> >
> > I am glad to see that the modified version has also been appeared in NFB today:
> >
> > http://bangladesh-web.com/new/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5829:gun-control-in-the-usa-time-to-make-it-happen&catid=39:highlights&Itemid=438
> >
> > Regards
> > Avijit
> >
>




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Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity



All right, what's the eternity? Eternity is the world where a living being goes after death.  It's eternity, because they will remain there forever. 


George Washington died more than 200 years ago. Even though his physical being is perished, we know nothing about what happened to him after death. But, he is still with us, meaning  he has entered in an eternal world from our frame of reference, where he will remain forever.  Our loved ones also enter into that eternal world after death.


Jiten Roy



--- On Tue, 1/1/13, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013, 8:16 PM

 

Manipulating data in scientific research to achieve a political or social agenda is a crime. An honest scientist will still hold on to his hypothesis of human made global warming and collect more and more data to support his hypothesis. I do not smell any faith in here. 
Uncertainty is a reality and can be modeled by the theories of probability, but an assumption of eternity will take a scientist nowhere. Predicting in the world of uncertainty is an analytical process. The power of the model can reduce uncertainty. 
What do you mean by eternity? Are you talking about the perpetuality of life? Would biological science support it? 
How do you connect fear of eternity and God? Does your God reduce this fear? I think you are talking about spirituality or mysticism. Many people quietly sit down (maybe in front of a deity) and completely surrender to Him for spiritual pleasure. It makes them fearless. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 1, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I believe you misread my comments. What I said is - how scientific assumptions can cross over to faith. Let me give you an example, some scientists believe in the man-made global warming theory, and when data did not support their belief, they manipulated data to stick to their belief. That's how science crosses over to faith.

Now, what is eternity? It's a big unknown, isn't it? Anytime you face an unknown, you are apprehensive about it, that's what I call a fear of the unknown. As you board a plane, you are apprehensive about what's lying ahead. This is a natural psychological response. Eternity is one such unknown. It is quite natural to wonder about the eternity. As we approach it - we get apprehensive about it. It's a fact. Isn't it? What's unscientific about the fear of eternity? I don't get it. Why are you thinking about punishment or reward? I am not talking about it?  I am talking about psychological response to the eternity, which is natural, if not scientific. Isn't it?

I think - you are trying to establish something that you already believe in, which I call faith-based discussion. Under this situation, you will not conceive alternative argument.

Jiten Roy

--- On Mon, 12/31/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, December 31, 2012, 7:54 AM

 

It may not be proper to use faith in the context of science. Science uses assumption, axiom, postulate, and hypothesis. But all of these are not wild guesses or imaginations. It is true that no formal proofs are offered, but they can be obvious and theories bases on these can have prediction capabilities. It follows the so called scientific method. 

Eternity of human life can be a philosophical proposition not a scientific one. So if you say that you have fear of eternity, then you are saying this on the basis of faith. Fear, right path, etc. cannot be scientific constructs, they can well fit into a religion--Godless or without God. Right path is a relative term and can be an important topic in ethics and moral philosophy. 

You have decided on your right path and as a matter of fact we all do. These are obviously important for an individual and the society he belongs to, but this is beyond the jurisdiction of science. 


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Assumption becomes faith when it is considered as truth, without any evidence. Scientists often assume (hypothesize) something, then investigate about its validity or truth. If they fail to validate, and yet believe in it, that becomes a faith.

 

There is another kind of assumption, in which a model is assumed which helps explain some unknown phenomena. If someone thinks that the model is the truth, and asks others to accept it - it becomes his faith. God and eternity are such phenomenological models to explain some unknowns. A scientist can assume these concepts if they help him understand those unknowns. Models can be physical structures or mathematical expressions. Therefore, if models have physical structures, they can be understood in a physical sense, as the concept of Gods and Goddesses in idols.

 

Fear of eternity/unknown is always with us. Such fears keep us in line. Some people can easily overcome fear of eternity or unknown, and can do certain things that most others can't imagine.

 

Jiten Roy

 
--- On Sun, 12/30/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, December 30, 2012, 9:13 AM

 
Fear of Unknown eternity? My humble question: Can a scientist believe in eternity in the physical sense? What is this fear about? Is it about any punishment that you may have to face? If this is so, then what are the remedies? Good works? Don't all these boil down to a concept of faith? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I don't know if my belief in God is circumstantial or what; it could be due to the fear of unknown eternity also. But, one thing I know for sure – I have no fear of God, if you are asking about that. I try to do everything right; that's all. Some people believe in almighty God, yet always claim to be victims of aggression from others. 

 

Anyway, I don't dwell on the existence of God or its form, because I find the concept as a very powerful psychological sanctuary. The existence of God is less important when it's a conceptual entity. So, I leave it alone, and do not feel the need to abandon the idea of God. Instead, I feel strongly that - we should abandon the concept of religion altogether, which is nothing but exploitation of the image of God to serve the petty interests of religion-peddlers on this earth.  

 

It's also not about which scientist believes in what; they are as clueless about God as any one of us. It's really a matter of personal choice. Many people do not need the concept of God, that's fine - as long as they do the right things. 


Jiten Roy



--- On Fri, 12/28/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, December 28, 2012, 11:06 AM

 
Thanks. Virtually I don't see any difference between your "prayer" and a non-believer's "wish" for some thing. Fear factor probably is absent in your belief, I suppose. You would know better. 

Any way, recently Higgs (predictor of the so called God particle/Goddam particle or technically called Higgs-Boson), despite he himself being a non-believer has called Richard Dawkins a fundamentalist. Dawkins himself has said that an evangelical and he himself can be matched, but the former would not revise his belief in theological theories in creationism while he will do so with the new scientific and experimental evidences. 

The other day we saw the results of a survey according to which many great scientists have admitted to be believers. It is hard if not impossible to overcome the belief that has been in our psyche for centuries. Are yourself not a victim of this? 

Interestingly the Nobel Laureate physicist who coined the term "God particle" preferred the name "Goddam particle" but the latter was not acceptable to the publisher of the book he wrote. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 26, 2012, at 6:22 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
" How do you use your God? Meditate on  Him? If yes, how? Any rituals? And why do you need it any way? Do you pray? And if yes, what are your prayers? I mean what do you pray for?"

I use God whenever I need it for psychological support. I do not pray without specific need, and there is no special language or verse for prayer. 

Someone was about to die of lung cancer. When the news spread, people arranged a mass-prayer session in the a temple. They asked me to join the prayer, and I did. About 200 people gathered in the temple. Everybody was praying for his recovery from this dreadful disease. I was hoping that at least someone in the crowd will be able to draw the attention of God through his/her prayer, and a miracle will occur. Two days later, I heard the news of his death. 

 

In my view - prayer is for psychological help only. Those who a



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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity



One example of how faith influences science is the spectrum of sunlight as described by Sir Isaac Newton.  Nobody with common sense would find a difference between Blue and Indigo, but Newton did.  I suppose, he was deeply influenced by his heretic faith of Christian faith called Arian heresy.  He believed in the existence of seven heavens in which seven archangels sang religious songs, and probably as the light emitted by them reached the surface of earth, it became white(or colorless).  Religion is primitive science based mainly on cosmology and herbal therapy.  Mesopotamian civilization, in spite of being an advanced one compared to that of the Egyptians, did not need an afterlife and God(s) who would behave like a tyrant king, but the Egyptians needed such a creation of the priest king named Menes.

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:59 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

I believe you misread my comments. What I said is - how scientific assumptions can cross over to faith. Let me give you an example, some scientists believe in the man-made global warming theory, and when data did not support their belief, they manipulated data to stick to their belief. That's how science crosses over to faith.

Now, what is eternity? It's a big unknown, isn't it? Anytime you face an unknown, you are apprehensive about it, that's what I call a fear of the unknown. As you board a plane, you are apprehensive about what's lying ahead. This is a natural psychological response. Eternity is one such unknown. It is quite natural to wonder about the eternity. As we approach it - we get apprehensive about it. It's a fact. Isn't it? What's unscientific about the fear of eternity? I don't get it. Why are you thinking about punishment or reward? I am not talking about it?  I am talking about psychological response to the eternity, which is natural, if not scientific. Isn't it?

I think - you are trying to establish something that you already believe in, which I call faith-based discussion. Under this situation, you will not conceive alternative argument.

Jiten Roy


--- On Mon, 12/31/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, December 31, 2012, 7:54 AM


 

It may not be proper to use faith in the context of science. Science uses assumption, axiom, postulate, and hypothesis. But all of these are not wild guesses or imaginations. It is true that no formal proofs are offered, but they can be obvious and theories bases on these can have prediction capabilities. It follows the so called scientific method. 

Eternity of human life can be a philosophical proposition not a scientific one. So if you say that you have fear of eternity, then you are saying this on the basis of faith. Fear, right path, etc. cannot be scientific constructs, they can well fit into a religion--Godless or without God. Right path is a relative term and can be an important topic in ethics and moral philosophy. 

You have decided on your right path and as a matter of fact we all do. These are obviously important for an individual and the society he belongs to, but this is beyond the jurisdiction of science. 


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Assumption becomes faith when it is considered as truth, without any evidence. Scientists often assume (hypothesize) something, then investigate about its validity or truth. If they fail to validate, and yet believe in it, that becomes a faith.

 

There is another kind of assumption, in which a model is assumed which helps explain some unknown phenomena. If someone thinks that the model is the truth, and asks others to accept it - it becomes his faith. God and eternity are such phenomenological models to explain some unknowns. A scientist can assume these concepts if they help him understand those unknowns. Models can be physical structures or mathematical expressions. Therefore, if models have physical structures, they can be understood in a physical sense, as the concept of Gods and Goddesses in idols.

 

Fear of eternity/unknown is always with us. Such fears keep us in line. Some people can easily overcome fear of eternity or unknown, and can do certain things that most others can't imagine.

 

Jiten Roy

 
--- On Sun, 12/30/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, December 30, 2012, 9:13 AM

 
Fear of Unknown eternity? My humble question: Can a scientist believe in eternity in the physical sense? What is this fear about? Is it about any punishment that you may have to face? If this is so, then what are the remedies? Good works? Don't all these boil down to a concept of faith? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I don't know if my belief in God is circumstantial or what; it could be due to the fear of unknown eternity also. But, one thing I know for sure – I have no fear of God, if you are asking about that. I try to do everything right; that's all. Some people believe in almighty God, yet always claim to be victims of aggression from others. 

 

Anyway, I don't dwell on the existence of God or its form, because I find the concept as a very powerful psychological sanctuary. The existence of God is less important when it's a conceptual entity. So, I leave it alone, and do not feel the need to abandon the idea of God. Instead, I feel strongly that - we should abandon the concept of religion altogether, which is nothing but exploitation of the image of God to serve the petty interests of religion-peddlers on this earth.  

 

It's also not about which scientist believes in what; they are as clueless about God as any one of us. It's really a matter of personal choice. Many people do not need the concept of God, that's fine - as long as they do the right things. 


Jiten Roy



--- On Fri, 12/28/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, December 28, 2012, 11:06 AM

 
Thanks. Virtually I don't see any difference between your "prayer" and a non-believer's "wish" for some thing. Fear factor probably is absent in your belief, I suppose. You would know better. 

Any way, recently Higgs (predictor of the so called God particle/Goddam particle or technically called Higgs-Boson), despite he himself being a non-believer has called Richard Dawkins a fundamentalist. Dawkins himself has said that an evangelical and he himself can be matched, but the former would not revise his belief in theological theories in creationism while he will do so with the new scientific and experimental evidences. 

The other day we saw the results of a survey according to which many great scientists have admitted to be believers. It is hard if not impossible to overcome the belief that has been in our psyche for centuries. Are yourself not a victim of this? 

Interestingly the Nobel Laureate physicist who coined the term "God particle" preferred the name "Goddam particle" but the latter was not acceptable to the publisher of the book he wrote. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 26, 2012, at 6:22 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
" How do you use your God? Meditate on  Him? If yes, how? Any rituals? And why do you need it any way? Do you pray? And if yes, what are your prayers? I mean what do you pray for?"

I use God whenever I need it for psychological support. I do not pray without specific need, and there is no special language or verse for prayer. 

Someone was about to die of lung cancer. When the news spread, people arranged a mass-prayer session in the a temple. They asked me to join the prayer, and I did. About 200 people gathered in the temple. Everybody was praying for his recovery from this dreadful disease. I was hoping that at least someone in the crowd will be able to draw the attention of God through his/her prayer, and a miracle will occur. Two days later, I heard the news of his death. 

 

In my view - prayer is for psychological help only. Those who attended prayer felt that they have done something for that person at the time of his need; that helped them console themselves after his death.

 

Jiten Roy



--- On Wed, 12/26/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 26, 2012, 9:04 AM

 
By the word "creed" Jung may have meant what is commonly known as "organized religion". Even those who belong to an organized religion may have quite different images or ideas of God. My father and mother, for example, had different constructs of God. While my father's connection to a God was mostly mystical and spiritual, my mother's one was a mixture of mysticism and prayers for some mundane benefits. 
May I ask you some personal questions? How do you use your God? Meditate on  Him? If yes, how? Any rituals? And why do you need it any way? Do you pray? And if yes, what are your prayers? I mean what do you pray for? 
I know even atheists pray or wish for things. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 25, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
"But how do you distinguish this customized God from a God, for example, a specific religion? And why should one prefer a customized God to a God that he has acquired through social training?"
 
Well, I said make your own God because - the image of God that comes through the social training comes with a baggage, called religion. And, religions are divisive phenomena, to all in our societies, but not God, at least to most people.
 
Jiten Roy

 

 

--- On Tue, 12/25/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Ab




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****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
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Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity



Manipulating data in scientific research to achieve a political or social agenda is a crime. An honest scientist will still hold on to his hypothesis of human made global warming and collect more and more data to support his hypothesis. I do not smell any faith in here. 
Uncertainty is a reality and can be modeled by the theories of probability, but an assumption of eternity will take a scientist nowhere. Predicting in the world of uncertainty is an analytical process. The power of the model can reduce uncertainty. 
What do you mean by eternity? Are you talking about the perpetuality of life? Would biological science support it? 
How do you connect fear of eternity and God? Does your God reduce this fear? I think you are talking about spirituality or mysticism. Many people quietly sit down (maybe in front of a deity) and completely surrender to Him for spiritual pleasure. It makes them fearless. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 1, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I believe you misread my comments. What I said is - how scientific assumptions can cross over to faith. Let me give you an example, some scientists believe in the man-made global warming theory, and when data did not support their belief, they manipulated data to stick to their belief. That's how science crosses over to faith.

Now, what is eternity? It's a big unknown, isn't it? Anytime you face an unknown, you are apprehensive about it, that's what I call a fear of the unknown. As you board a plane, you are apprehensive about what's lying ahead. This is a natural psychological response. Eternity is one such unknown. It is quite natural to wonder about the eternity. As we approach it - we get apprehensive about it. It's a fact. Isn't it? What's unscientific about the fear of eternity? I don't get it. Why are you thinking about punishment or reward? I am not talking about it?  I am talking about psychological response to the eternity, which is natural, if not scientific. Isn't it?

I think - you are trying to establish something that you already believe in, which I call faith-based discussion. Under this situation, you will not conceive alternative argument.

Jiten Roy

--- On Mon, 12/31/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, December 31, 2012, 7:54 AM

 

It may not be proper to use faith in the context of science. Science uses assumption, axiom, postulate, and hypothesis. But all of these are not wild guesses or imaginations. It is true that no formal proofs are offered, but they can be obvious and theories bases on these can have prediction capabilities. It follows the so called scientific method. 

Eternity of human life can be a philosophical proposition not a scientific one. So if you say that you have fear of eternity, then you are saying this on the basis of faith. Fear, right path, etc. cannot be scientific constructs, they can well fit into a religion--Godless or without God. Right path is a relative term and can be an important topic in ethics and moral philosophy. 

You have decided on your right path and as a matter of fact we all do. These are obviously important for an individual and the society he belongs to, but this is beyond the jurisdiction of science. 


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Assumption becomes faith when it is considered as truth, without any evidence. Scientists often assume (hypothesize) something, then investigate about its validity or truth. If they fail to validate, and yet believe in it, that becomes a faith.

 

There is another kind of assumption, in which a model is assumed which helps explain some unknown phenomena. If someone thinks that the model is the truth, and asks others to accept it - it becomes his faith. God and eternity are such phenomenological models to explain some unknowns. A scientist can assume these concepts if they help him understand those unknowns. Models can be physical structures or mathematical expressions. Therefore, if models have physical structures, they can be understood in a physical sense, as the concept of Gods and Goddesses in idols.

 

Fear of eternity/unknown is always with us. Such fears keep us in line. Some people can easily overcome fear of eternity or unknown, and can do certain things that most others can't imagine.

 

Jiten Roy

 
--- On Sun, 12/30/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, December 30, 2012, 9:13 AM

 
Fear of Unknown eternity? My humble question: Can a scientist believe in eternity in the physical sense? What is this fear about? Is it about any punishment that you may have to face? If this is so, then what are the remedies? Good works? Don't all these boil down to a concept of faith? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 28, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I don't know if my belief in God is circumstantial or what; it could be due to the fear of unknown eternity also. But, one thing I know for sure – I have no fear of God, if you are asking about that. I try to do everything right; that's all. Some people believe in almighty God, yet always claim to be victims of aggression from others. 

 

Anyway, I don't dwell on the existence of God or its form, because I find the concept as a very powerful psychological sanctuary. The existence of God is less important when it's a conceptual entity. So, I leave it alone, and do not feel the need to abandon the idea of God. Instead, I feel strongly that - we should abandon the concept of religion altogether, which is nothing but exploitation of the image of God to serve the petty interests of religion-peddlers on this earth.  

 

It's also not about which scientist believes in what; they are as clueless about God as any one of us. It's really a matter of personal choice. Many people do not need the concept of God, that's fine - as long as they do the right things. 


Jiten Roy



--- On Fri, 12/28/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, December 28, 2012, 11:06 AM

 
Thanks. Virtually I don't see any difference between your "prayer" and a non-believer's "wish" for some thing. Fear factor probably is absent in your belief, I suppose. You would know better. 

Any way, recently Higgs (predictor of the so called God particle/Goddam particle or technically called Higgs-Boson), despite he himself being a non-believer has called Richard Dawkins a fundamentalist. Dawkins himself has said that an evangelical and he himself can be matched, but the former would not revise his belief in theological theories in creationism while he will do so with the new scientific and experimental evidences. 

The other day we saw the results of a survey according to which many great scientists have admitted to be believers. It is hard if not impossible to overcome the belief that has been in our psyche for centuries. Are yourself not a victim of this? 

Interestingly the Nobel Laureate physicist who coined the term "God particle" preferred the name "Goddam particle" but the latter was not acceptable to the publisher of the book he wrote. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 26, 2012, at 6:22 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
" How do you use your God? Meditate on  Him? If yes, how? Any rituals? And why do you need it any way? Do you pray? And if yes, what are your prayers? I mean what do you pray for?"

I use God whenever I need it for psychological support. I do not pray without specific need, and there is no special language or verse for prayer. 

Someone was about to die of lung cancer. When the news spread, people arranged a mass-prayer session in the a temple. They asked me to join the prayer, and I did. About 200 people gathered in the temple. Everybody was praying for his recovery from this dreadful disease. I was hoping that at least someone in the crowd will be able to draw the attention of God through his/her prayer, and a miracle will occur. Two days later, I heard the news of his death. 

 

In my view - prayer is for psychological help only. Those who a



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[mukto-mona] FW: Declaration of Jan 1 as 'National Ethics Day' demanded: We support the idea--editorial



“We agree with the main issue raised. There is need for an Ethics day though it is true that ethics and morality is not a one day affair. Morality is an issue which is of paramount concern to individuals and societies at all times.Though we may be said to be back dated, till we want to emphasize that what happens in the midnight beginning with zero hour of Ist January is un explainable. Some people just lose balance and show wild behavior in the streets at that hour of night. In the hotels and bars they involve in drinking and sexual orgy. This happens more in the West and some other countries. It is still less in our country. Our religion and moral code do not permit such conduct. There is need to speak out against this. If others do not at least some press and religious leaders should do it.” (last para of the editorial)

 

 

 


From: SAHANNAN [mailto:sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 7:00 AM
To: 'hkbadal@gmail.com'
Subject: Declaration of Jan 1 as 'National Ethics Day' demanded: We support the idea--editorial

 

Declaration of Jan 1 as 'National Ethics Day' demanded: We support the idea

Daily Star has reported that speakers at an event yesterday demanded that January 1 be declared as “National Ethics Day” to motivate the country's youths to embrace moral and ethical practices. There has been a degradation of values and morals in today's world, with widespread corruption polluting the nation, they said. Bangladesh Ethics Club organized the event, including a discussion and cultural programme, at TSC in Dhaka University.Dr AK Abdul Momen, permanent representative of Bangladesh to UN, and Dr Ziauddin Ahmed, professor of Drexel University, US, also addressed the programme.

We agree with the main issue raised. There is need for an Ethics day though it is true that ethics and morality is not a one day affair. Morality is an issue which is of paramount concern to individuals and societies at all times.Though we may be said to be back dated, till we want to emphasize that what happens in the midnight beginning with zero hour of Ist January is un explainable. Some people just lose balance and show wild behavior in the streets at that hour of night. In the hotels and bars they involve in drinking and sexual orgy. This happens more in the West and some other countries. It is still less in our country. Our religion and moral code do not permit such conduct. There is need to speak out against this. If others do not at least some press and religious leaders should do it.

 



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Re: [mukto-mona] Gun Control in the USA: Time to Make It Happen



More security and protection in school will mean more gun sales. It is American Rifle Association's pet idea. Total ban will be unconstitutional and probably undesirable at this time, but  restriction of kinds of fire arms a private individual should be allowed to possess legally is not. All loopholes in the licensing, registration, and trades have not inly to be removed, the processes have to be made stricter also. The government should at least achieve this much in the near future. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 1, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Gun-culture in the USA is going to be hard for people, like me, to understand as I came to this country from a place, where civilians have no right to bear or own arms; only criminals in the society have arms. I do not understand why it is a sport to hunt animals or be a member of the shooting range. I do not understand why no one complains about violent video games and movies, which fill young impressionable minds with violent outbursts, and make them insensitive to violence and killing. I do not understand why people buy or own so many high power-firearms for personal protections. I do not understand why President cannot halt assault weapon sell to the public right away using his executive power, if he is so touched by the recent event in Connecticut. I do not understand why he is asking senators and congressmen, who are influenced by lobbyist, to do it. I do not understand the cowboy culture in America. So, it is easy for me to ask for the ban of these weapons.

I know President said when he was first elected to the office that he wanted to see a strong civilian force as powerful as military, if not more. Do we know what did he mean? He wanted to arm civilians for what, except to fight ideological battle or for personal protection? I know - he did not do it, but - that was the intent. I smelt Pol Pot or Stalin or Mao Tse Tung in the intent of the President, and millions of Americans do so.

I believe - banning firearm-ownership will only disarm civilians and empower culprits. Haven't we banned drugs already? Why do we still see thousands of drug related deaths and violence on the street? Now we are begging for legalizing drug. Have we thought about it? I see civilians are ready to surrender their rights, but culprits are not. Have we thought about it?

I know – tragedy happened in Connecticut, but is gun control the solution? Don't we have laws against access to firearms for mentally challenged people? That did not stop this psychopath to get access to the firearms. I think - we need more security and protection at schools, not less.

Jiten Roy

--- On Mon, 12/31/12, Avijit Roy <charbak_bd@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Avijit Roy <charbak_bd@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Gun Control in the USA: Time to Make It Happen
To: "Mukto-mona YahooGroups" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, December 31, 2012, 2:21 PM

 

I wrote a blog just after the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School on the necessity of Gun control in the USA:

[Just after the Shikh Temple massacre in Wisconsin a few months ago, Time Magazine published an article titled 'The Case for Gun Control', where the author Fareed Zakaria made a strong case in favor of stricter gun control laws. Although he offered valuable insight concerning the topic, the masses paid him little attention after the media revealed that he had plagiarized a portion of the article.

Since then, two more major massacres have taken place. Of them, the recent one was the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School that occurred earlier this month in Newtown, Connecticut, where a man armed with two semiautomatic pistols killed 7 adults and 20 children, most of whom were only six years old. ]
Read more from here:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=1564

I am glad to see that the modified version has also been appeared in NFB today:



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Re: [mukto-mona] Learning from animals



Thanks for more insight into this interesting topic. To what extent what you have written is related to Id component of Freud's model of human psyche --- the other two layers in the model being Ego and Super-ego? Id does not know reason, it only knows how to seek pleasure. Ego is rational and Super-ego deals with higher levels of need as can be found in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs model. 

A new born baby is entirely controlled by Id and responds only to the immediate needs. Viku of Manik's "Pragoitihasik" is motivated by both Id and Ego. He will kill and take the girl away from another man. But he would wait, plan, and implement the plan. He would with great patience sharpen the piece of wood to turn the same into a weapon. Does he have Super-ego? I don't know. He loves Pachi ( I hope I remember the right) and  wants her. Is his love less intense than that of Shahjahan? 

Animals are mostly dominated by Id and probably Ego as well. Man, the rational animal, creates a defense mechanism against the primitive Id by using moral, ethical, and legal system. I agree with you that it is a natural tendency in a human to cross his self created barrier to respond to the call of Id. Things are more complex I guess. 

Do animals other than man possess Super-ego? Do they repent? Are they tormented by conscience? Do they commit suicide? Is man practically the only animal who creates arms to kill his adversaries? Does he not create and appreciate creations? 



Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2012, at 8:10 AM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

It boils down to our hardwired genes and their phenotypes (level of expressions), which are dependent on environmental conditions and cues. We, humans are rather living in an incubator than in the real world. Everybody is well fed and got equal rights. Our life styles are little anomalous than other animals but we are also within the same invisible realm of  evolutionary force that has ruled the life for many millions of years. Evolution is rather a slow on going process, which is totally blind and unforgiving. Our society might be great, law abiding and God fearing, but a small bug can wipe out our human species from the face of the earth at any time. 

As you say, there is societal pressure for humans to behave but there are times when all these rules and niceties are thrown aside and you witness a horrible crime like gang rape or many other horrible crimes. The point is nothing is set in the stone. There are societal traits and there are plenty of violators of those traits. Some of these traits are basically arbitrary and imposed on us for greater good of the society. They should not be considered as evolutionary traits for any advantage. Nada! The force of evolution does not give a damn hoot about these traits/niceties.

Punishment is probably the latest addition to our human society. We know that not all are equally punished for equal crimes. If you are more muscular than others, who would dare to punish you? So, rules are not exactly followed in our human societies. We can call ourselves relatively civilized or uncivilized as we please. Ironically, our hardwired genes have not changed that much from the time of dog eating dog days of the past.

There is no place for a good-natured tiger in the jungle. It would become some other animals' food if it does not use it's hunting power and sharp teeth. It too got some societal traits but its primitive instincts that make or break for its long-term evolutionary survival.

With the best evolutionary regards,
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Learning from animals

 
Pretty interesting. Is the evolution of these animal traits not shaped or at least affected by social rules or is this evolution independent of societal influences? I guess society teaches us to harness our primitive instincts and that makes a human a better animal or the so called rational animal. 

Manik Bandyopadhyay has written stories depicting the bestiality of humans. "Sarisrip" (reptiles) is one of them. All the characters in the story behave like low level animals and their behavior seems to be so natural. Here lies the power of the writer. "Pragoitihasik" is another one which is pretty well known. 

Besides lust, greed, and rewards, there are other human motivators also. Broadly speaking punishment is another one. Modern motivation theories are pretty illuminating. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 29, 2012, at 9:09 AM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
We too belong to the animal kingdom. There are plenty of animal traits that are already embedded in our brain that follow the rules of evolution rather than social rules and its constrains. No matter how much a society pushes us for a "correct" behavior, we have not evolved qualitatively any better animal than what we were five thousands years ago or further deeper in the past. Lust, greed  and rewards, what drive us to work and perform. If these primitive drives are gone from our behavior, we will cease to exist.
-SD


 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Sudhir-Architect <ar_sudhirkumar@yahoo.com>
To:
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:20 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Learning from animals

 

Learning from animals


Tirukkural stands out for its simplicity in conveying valuable messages. The examples Tiruvalluvar gives are ones we can easily comprehend and can relate to. He points to animal behaviour and characteristics to emphasise certain points, said R. Narayanan in a discourse on how Tiruvalluvar uses examples from the animal kingdom to buttress his arguments.

Gambling addiction

Gambling is like an intoxicant. One who gambles gets addicted to the habit, because he is pleased with the occasional wins. He forgets the many losses, but the wins are what he remembers. He should keep in mind the fact that he might win some money in a game of gambling, but what he loses is far greater.

The rare win draws him just as the worm that is hooked to the end of a fishing rod draws the unwary fish, says Tirukkural. The fish bites the bait and is pulled up and loses its life. A desire to feast on a juicy worm spells disaster for the fish. In the same way, a pleasure like gambling entices a man and sends him hurtling to his doom.
Regarding love, Tirukkural says that just as the Sun scorches a creature that has no bones, so does Dharma destroy the one who has a heart bereft of love. In order to be successful, every action must be performed at the right time.

One should know when to do something and when not to. A crow can win in a fight against an owl during daytime. But the owl, being a nocturnal bird, can see well than the crow at night.

So it would be foolish of a crow to take on an owl during night. We must know our opponent's weaknesses and strengths. A crocodile kills easily in water, but it is not so strong on land. So we should know on what kind of turf a person can be challenged without harm to us.

When a crow finds something to eat, it calls out to other crows and shares its food with them. This is something we should learn from the crow- the act of sharing what we have with others. The moment it senses trouble, the tortoise draws its four limbs and its head into its shell, and is thus saved. If we learn to control our five senses, then we too will be saved, says Tirukkural.


Thanks & Regards,


Sudhir Srinivasan
B.Arch, MSc.CPM, Dip.ID, Dip.CAD, Dip.PM, Dip.LD
| Architect |


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