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Monday, August 27, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling



This fellow is again inventing history.

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 9:13 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 

  The first assault on Meccan caravan was done by the mercenaries of Muhammad.  The muslims may call it a religious war, but in reality, it was not.


>>>>>>>>> In this very forum we had a very detailed discussion on this topic!!

I have given plenty of references that, the ONLY one "War" involving caravan had properties of Muslims (Who left Mecca and immigrated to Medina in search of peace). Meccan leaders wanted to provoke Muslims by selling our their properties and some of it were taken by this caravan. Muslims in Medina rightfully wanted to protect what belonged to them.



As I mentioned Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) took part in 23 conflicts and Muslims were attacked 22 times (By the Meccans) and the caravan raid was the only time when Muslims decided to send a message to Meccans that, they will defend their properties. Since the revelation for thirteen long years Muslims took abuse without responding to the persecutors. This raid sent a message to the Meccans that, Muslims will not tolerate any more abuse on Muslims who stayed back in Mecca as well. History tells us this was a very effective deterrent and Meccans had to come to some arrangements with Muslims in Medina after Muslims won these battles. 

Even today, this is the fundamental human rights to protect properties and right to live in security.

I have no issue with anyone who fundamentally disagree with Islamic monotheism or our practices. However I do not think they have to resort to lies, myths to "Criticise" Islam. Criticism based on facts is more credible. These type of cheap attacks/libels are just that-----cheap!!

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 2:56 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
I do not think Mr. Rahman will ever find any good reference for his preposterous position about the very early 'peaceful' days of Islam. I would rather give a free pass to Muhammad but the Islam has been hijacked by illiterates and zealots from the get go. The daggers were always drawn to settle the score rather than the true religious preachings by its followers. Nothing has been changed even now when people are ready to travel to planet Mars. A sad story indeed!
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
Mr. Rahman wants to invert history.  The first assault on Meccan caravan was done by the mercenaries of Muhammad.  The muslims may call it a religious war, but in reality, it was not.  Even an apologetic of Islam, like Karen Armstrong, deemed it necessary for the survival of those men who left Mecca, as protection was no longer available from the Quaraishis.

I would ask Mr. Rahman not to make fictitious quotations by Bernard Lewis.  He is so reputed that any fiction on him may not go unchallenged.
On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 8:20 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
He did carry a protective gear while he preached Islam


>>>>>>>>> According to Bernard Lewis (A world known Jewish scholar of Islam) this is another orientalist myths about prophet Muhammad (PBUH). NOT only that, he was consistently and constantly persecuted by his fellow Meccans for thirteen long years. He took all the abuses peacefully and at last left his beloved Mecca in search of peace. When the Meccan leaders wanted to chase him and his followers to Medina, he decided to stand up for his PEOPLE.

Throughout his life, he forgave everyone who attacked him personally (The person--Muhammad son of Abdullah). Only went to war reluctantly to protect the city of Medina (Which had Muslims, Jews and idol worshippers).

Yes, the "Arab context" is important to understand and appreciate the narrative of Muhammad (PBUH).

Muhammad (PBUH) had many chance to take revenge but he forgave his enemies. Hence like our Creator, his mercy always had more power than his willingness to engage in wars.


Shalom!

======================================================================================================

[Allah's Mercy over His Wrath]

When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him:

"My mercy prevails over my wrath."

It was related by Muslim (also by al-Bukhari, an-Nasa'i and Ibn Majah).

Text copied from Al-Nasir's Hadith Qudsi Software v1.0, www.DivineIslam.com

=====================================================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Aug 24, 2012 8:32 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
Please read H. G Wells (The outline of History, 1921). He wrote one full chapter about Muhammad and Islam (p567-603). At that time of last century, there was no need for him to treat Islam any differently than other religions. I have to go western historians because no Muslim historian would not be able to portray Muhammad objectively because of fear being killed by other fellow Muslims. I am afraid things have not changed even today. 
Muhammad was not like Jesus or Gautam Buddha. He did carry a protective gear while he preached Islam. Maybe, that was very necessary with the Arab context?
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
hundreds of thousands of innocent people got killed by his followers.


>>>>>>>>> sources please?

-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 5:37 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

 
The Prophet was engaged in 'gazwa', which is better translated as banditry than war.  In about a hundred such incidents he killed thousands of innocent persons.  During the spread of Islam, hundreds of thousands of innocent people got killed by his followers.

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 2:12 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
When I heard the verse "Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32)" for the first time, I had the same reaction as Dr. Das. I was wondering how this verse could make sense, when Prophet was engaged in many wars. In a war, innocent people get killed. There is no denying about it. Then I realize that - devils are in the details of the term "Innocent Person." Who are those innocent persons? I can exclude almost everyone from that category. Therefore, this verse bears very little significance to me.

Jiten Roy



--- On Sun, 8/19/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, August 19, 2012, 8:17 AM


 
"Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32)". Yet, it killed three of the rightly guided Caliphs and poisoned the first one. It decimated the Egyptians, Mesopotamians and the Persians during the reign of the second Caliph.

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 7:11 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
This post shows how hard it is to make a point when someone already made up their minds about a topic. For example, Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32 ). What more one person needs to attacking innocent people?

Today we look at Assam and see targeted killings of minority population, because they are "Bengalis" and Muslims. If we take a dispassionate view of our history, we see a lot of conflicts without religion involved. As I said it before, religion, nationalism, tribalism, ideologies have been "abused" to gain POLITICAL goals.

It is easy to point finger at religion but religion is not a one liner book. It is a complete code of life. Since every communities of this world have bad and good people, some verses discuss those issuies.

But those turn good people into bad people (leaders) are the real criminals not religion. If I remove all criminal laws from the books of Bangladesh, it will not remove crime from this country. People have to change their thinking, attitudes etc to make that happen. Religion is an exceotionally good tool to make that transformation happen.

There are plenty of secular criminals who also commit crime with different excuses. Often religion is only an exuse not the cause.

There are reports from criminal land grabbers who snaches away lands from weak and poor people and build mosque on it. Religion does NOT support such acts but half literate people often don't know that and they are duped into the scam like many others scams coming out of Bangladesh in recent years.

Many religious people are like many atheists I met here. They made up their minds and find silliest excuses to support their flawed ideas. Also some are very open and honest like any other group of people.

A book with nice texts do not have any magic in it to change people. People have to make an effort to understand religion and practice it. While there are many bad people among religious groups, there are tons of great people in them too. Who sacrifice a lot to make an honest living, be kind to their neighbors, help poor people etc.

Selective picking cannot give us the total picture.


Shalom!


-----Original Message-----
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 5:41 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling

When Q. A. Rahman writes, "I think sometime religion looks "Bad" because we "Selectively" follow some ideas and don't follow others", I hope he realizes that while a brainwashed religious person might call it "looking bad", an honest, neutral and non-malicious person would probably call it "actually bad." For this, the religious person would have the burden of explaining that what looks bad is actually not bad, as opposed to branding the neutral person anti-religious. The way I see it, a lot of the religious books have too many 'teachings' that would not fly with truly honest and intelligent people.
In fact, spending too much time on finding contexts and explaining to neutral non-religious people is not a big problem, even when the neutral persons have no patience hearing the explanation.
The overwhelmingly big problem is when a bad teaching is followed by some people for doing bad things in the world under the cover of divinity and unquestionability. This has been making life so miserable for so many innocent people in the world.
I do not agree totally with Mr. Rahman's statement. I think religious people should follow selectively only the good teachings in religious books, and dump the bad teachings, without feeling guilty of not following the religion in its entirety.
Sukhamaya Bain
==================================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence
I agree mostly.
Religion is like a jungle; one can find delicious as well poisonous fruits there. The problem is - there is no guarantee that everyone will always pick the delicious fruits. This is what's going on with the religion. Some people are picking poisonous fruits either advertently or inadvertently. The deliberate use of poisonous fruits (of religion) is causing havoc around the world, and it is not decreasing; it's being used increasingly to settle religious group rivalries across religious boundaries or even within the same religious boundary.
I am convinced that – most of the evils that are happening around the world are somehow or other due to the religious divisions among us, irrespective of how good religious principles are. It's because – where there is division, there is competition and rivalry. This is one of our instinctive characteristics. You may keep it dormant for a while through proper education and training, but can't eliminate it. I criticize religion for its very existence in this day and age, not because it has nothing good to offer anymore.
After the scientific renaissance, science took over our lives and religion lost its utility. Morality in our lives comes from societal demands and environment. The populace in Bangladesh is devoutly religious, yet Bangladesh is one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
Jiten Roy
--- On Tue, 8/14/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 10:03 AM

Some people are just reacting to what religion is feeding to them. Obviously, not everybody will react to the same extent, but - some will. Don't blame them for reacting.


>>>>>>>>>> I think sometime religion looks "Bad" because we "Selectively" follow some ideas and don't follow others. For example, Bangladeshi Muslims are pretty big on "Showing" they are Muslims, when it benefits them. However you check on most of them if they paid, obligatory charity (Zakat) or made sacrifices to make an honest living (Halal income), you will see plenty of hypocrites.

I have seen plenty of Muslims, foaming their mouth about their "Rights" but not so eager to worry about their "Responsibilities". Which is the very reason why "Religion" looks bad to many of us (Muslims and non-Muslims alike). When I look back to teachings of prophet Muhammad (PBUH), he was more worried about his responsibilities and often "forgave" others when it came to his rights over them (Muslims and non-Muslim alike). Most Muslims don't follow it and those who do, they don't make headlines.

This is the "Root cause" of problems we see when it comes to religion. So in one word, we are greedy and often we prefer money/power over God.

Shalom!


-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Aug 12, 2012 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Condemning Mumbai Violence

Most religious people are either unwise or fake. They are unwise because they can't visualize the evil done on earth by what religion. All they need to do is - look around the world with open eyes and minds, but – they can't.
I know – people will still say – religion is not to blame; it's the people, the so called misguided religious fundamentalists, to blame. That's hogwash; I don't blame anybody, but religion, for this. Some people are just reacting to what religion is feeding to them. Obviously, not everybody will react to the same extent, but - some will. Don't blame them for reacting.
So, please - no more blame, excuses, and double talks; try to analyze the root cause, if you can, and try to expose all evils of religion on humanity. Also, please don't tell me that some big-shot said - religion is the 'shuva-sanskar,' on earth, because I have seen enough of those shuvo-sanskars by now already. Don't show me anymore.
Jiten Roy










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Re: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"



"There are significant numbers of Indians do make a living here. Specially in textile mills and other technical jobs in our industrial complexes."  That is very true, they are brought in legally.  It indeed takes low lives to ignite communal riot. But then, low lives carry their religious identity, and believe that solving all problems is possible by prescription given hundreds of years ago, i.e., kill the opposition.

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 12:53 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 


Look, Mr. Chakrabarty; I had been listening to the language of the indigenous people of Assam for last forty seven years, it is quite distinct from that of those of Noakhali.

>>>>>>>>>>> I hear a lot of "West Bengal" accent in Dhaka all the time. Still I don't worry about loads of Indians working in our cities. There are significant numbers of Indians do make a living here. Specially in textile mills and other technical jobs in our industrial complexes.

It takes a low life to make political issues out of it.

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 7:48 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"

 
Look, Mr. Chakrabarty; I had been listening to the language of the indigenous people of Assam for last forty seven years, it is quite distinct from that of those of Noakhali.

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 6:35 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
So far we have seen several articles on Assam crisis in this very forum. All of them point to the same general observation that Muslim issue in Assam is a cooked one. One may however may not believe this as he may think that all these articles have been written by the pseudo-seculars and Muslim appeasers. I was in a Guawa hotel in mid-eighties. One hotel attendant asked me, "Chaaa dimu?" To me it sounded like a Bangladeshi accent, but it was not. During 1971 occupation time we used to listen to Guawahati radio station for news. We used to be amused by a line from the newscaster: Sri Tajuddiney koy or koichhey. My point is that for historical reasons, Assamese accent in some areas are pretty to Bengali accent in some of the areas in Bangladesh.
 

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 5:10 PM

Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"
 
Farida Majid: "Whether you like it or not, and you and the mukto-mona smart alecs may not have noticed it, the world has moved on from the early 19th century English  Protestant priest's fear -- The Malthus catastrophe. Any one who talks about the Malthusian principle is laughed at."

What is she talking about? Utter ignorance.

Malthusian Theory is always valid. Production can never grow at a geometric progression forever, but population can. Yes, population burden can be lessened through economic development and growth in the country up to a point, but - that cannot compete with the ever growing population forever. When the economic growth in the country cannot handle the population burden, demographic invasion/migration to neighboring countries starts to occur. Such demographic invasion/migration from Bangladesh is occurring in India now, and creating havoc there.  Recent carnages in Assam, West Bengal, Mumbai, etc. bear the hallmark of such demographic invasion/migration from Bangladesh, as indicated by Kamal Das.  Yet, some people are still supporting such population growth merely for the sake of the growth of Ummah, and trying to put lipstick on the pig, as Farida Majid just did.

Jiten Roy


--- On Sun, 8/26/12, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Deeldar Shah" <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Date: Sunday, August 26, 2012, 4:38 PM

 
       Whether you like it or not, and you and the mukto-mona smart alecs may not have noticed it, the world has moved on from the early 19th century English  Protestant priest's fear -- The Malthus catastrophe. Any one who talks about the Malthusian principle is laughed at.  Why are you babbling about Muslims in the same manner as Mohish Mohiuddin and, on the flip side, the Hindu communalists of Sangh Parivar and Bangladesh?             It has been hard to rock the secular foundation of Bengal (Bangladesh) and we all know what painful, terrifying, murderous attempts there have been made to do so in the past 75 years or so. I lose heart sometimes. The Jamaat-shibir-razakar gang and their Baap-chacha -- KSA & Uncle Sam-- keep putting on the crunches.  Bangladesh is increasingly an important South Asian country.  Our human resources are our greatest strength.  Again-- times don't stand still, and values, even in economic calculations, undergo changes.                   Farida Majid
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 13:00:47 -0700From: shahdeeldar@yahoo.comSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"To: farida_majid@hotmail.com; mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comCC: kamalctgu@gmail.com
Well, well, you might not like his straight talk but he is not totally wrong. We are now more 160 millions and still breeding with a very fast rate with the hope that Allah will take care of us.  Obviously, the almighty does not care about our population growth or whether we should be forced to head for other countries in the future? The space is very limited in Bangladesh and there is already a spill over effect on surrounding countries whether you believe or not. No country would like to be overwhelmed by another fast growing population group with no intention to integrate but fight for a greater Ummah. These are legitimate fears whether you like or not. Muslims have failed to take care of its own problems. It is the quality that is needed not the quantity!-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"
  Does this man Kamal Das have no other hobby than bashing Islam, bad-mouthing Muslims of Bangladesh and dispensing unsolicited,incoherent wisdom like disjointed dark-colored globules of shit (otherwise known as chhagoler naadi)?
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: kamalctgu@gmail.comDate: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:40:03 +0600Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"  
A blind man is not expected to see anything.  The B. B. C. & CNN coverage on the episode had plenty of people speaking with Bangladeshi accent.
On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 11:28 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
I saw no trace of Bagladeshi offensive in the conflict, so systematically and vigorously orchestrated by BJP and VHP, led by L.K. Advani, Tarun Vijay and Praveen Togadia. They are playing with the lives of people and poisoning atmosphere for future. Bangladeshi is more of an abuse to humiliate Muslims who are native Indians. There may be a few percent Bangladeshis (as a Rajvanshi ex-serviceman in rural Kokrajhar put it at 10%), but even these, in all likelihood are labourers and labourers are no exploiters but an exploited lot.  They need to be treated with dignity. All countries have legal and illegal migrants.

>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly. At last some common sense!!

I have been to India but did not see large "Bangladeshi" population roaming around. I hear a lot about Bangladeshi shoppers who buys a lot of Indian goods and going for better treatment in India but don't think there are significant amount of Bangladeshi people that can cause social unrest.

Once of the problem is Muslims from West Bengal are treated like "Bangladeshi foreigners" in their own country. This is an Indian issue and Indian leadership need to address it properly.


Even if there are some insignificant number of "Illegals" in India, I don't think they are running out with a load of money in their pockets. We are talking India not Sweden!!
So treating every person with minimum dignity will bring India closer to her neighbors. Right now "Center" is hated by many Indians themselves and Indian policies are disliked by her neighbors. This is not how future super powers works. Maybe India can learn from China about foreign policies.
t 6 AM on August 5 I left for Kashipara and from there to Kokrajhar. I visted the Commerce College Bodo camp. People treated me with warmth and showed appreciation for peace efforts. At 12 noon I took Kamrup express to Guwahati.
>>>>>>>>> I am glad people are coming back their senses. Wish only peace and prosperity for these people. Hope politicians will not mislead these people any more. A peaceful, prosperous and stable India should be part of collective Bangladeshi wishes as well.

Shalom!

-----Original Message----- From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 10, 2012 5:27 am Subject: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"
 
From: sukla.sen@gmail.com Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:11:01 +0530 Subject: [india-unity] "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"  
Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is
Disservice to the Nation
V.K. Tripathi, IIT Delhi
           The ethnic violence between Bodos and Muslims in Bodo territorial region of Assam is a national calamity. It has taken a toll of 65 innocent lives (besides the scores of people missing) and rendered 4 lakh homeless. The first priority of sane polity and responsible government is to restore the trust between the warring groups, Bodos and Muslims, without the slightest of ill will against any of the communities and isolate miscreants from the masses. Muslims are poorer, have lost more lives and fled in larger numbers (up to 80%) but Bodos are no economic elite. The creation of Bodo Territorial Council (covering 4 districts – Kokrajhar, Chirang, Baxa and Udalguri) by the Center in 2003, has given a section of them an upper hand but masses of both the communities are in hardships. 
            I spent three days (August 3 to 5) in the area, visited relief camps – 2 Bodo camps in Kokrajhar (with 560 and 1500 people) , 1 Muslim camp in Kashipara (960 people), 1 Muslim camp in Dhubri (360 people) and 3 Muslim camps in Bilasipara (2000, 2500 and 3500 people), visited a Muslim village Bhadyagudi, a mixed Bodo-Muslim village Bhatipara and met a cross-section of people. I also met Deputy Commissioner (DC) of Kokrajhar Mr.  Jayant Narlikar, DC of Dhubri Mr. Kumud Kalita and Principal, Vice Principal and Librarian of Bhola Nath College, Dhubri.
            I saw no trace of Bagladeshi offensive in the conflict, so systematically and vigorously orchestrated by BJP and VHP, led by L.K. Advani, Tarun Vijay and Praveen Togadia. They are playing with the lives of people and poisoning atmosphere for future. Bangladeshi is more of an abuse to humiliate Muslims who are native Indians. There may be a few percent Bangladeshis (as a Rajvanshi ex-serviceman in rural Kokrajhar put it at 10%), but even these, in all likelihood are labourers and labourers are no exploiters but an exploited lot.  They need to be treated with dignity. All countries have legal and illegal migrants. USA has a very significant percentage of illegal Mexicans. But who engages them and benefits from their hard work?"- the business class, for cheap labour. USA is immensely more powerful than us but it could not force the Mexicans out. India has limited resources and can't afford to sustain work force from neighbouring countries, hence legal ways, commensurate with workers' dignity, must be employed to identify and deport them and to stop their migration (if at all there is any loop hole). As far as the language of Muslims in the area is concerned, there is strong historical reason for it.  Kokrajhar district borders with West Bengal and Dhubri with Bangladesh. 100-150 years ago British tea planters brought labourers from Bengal where Muslims were a predominant landless work force. Thus they speak Bengali. One more observation. In 1971 India welcomed lakhs of Hindu-Muslim refugees as a part of strategy on Bangladesh. Many of them overstayed.
            The current conflict developed as a chain event. Miscreants killed two Muslims on July 6. On July 19, a prominent Muslim suffered bullet injuries and a mob killed 4 Bodos, Subsequently sporadic killings of Muslims and display of fire power by Bodo elements, created a frightening atmosphere, forcing people to flee their homes. In Muslim dominated areas Bodos were made to flee. Once people fled, many of their homes were looted and put on fire.  Most camps, having over 2.5 lakh Muslim refugees, are located in Dhubri district.  This district with 80% Muslim population suffered no loss of life  Bodos from six villages had to flee to Kokrajhar.
            Bodo insurgents have carried a long drawn violent struggle for separate Bodoland. In 2003 Center created BTAD (Bodoland Territorial Autonomous Districts) giving substantial authority to Bodos (about 35 seats in the 40 member BTC Council). This created a wedge between them and other communities (Muslims, Santhals and Rajvanshis) who have a much larger share in population. Many insurgent groups surrendered their arms but some still have them.  Disarming them is a major responsibility of the state.
            All relief camps are facing severe hardships. The Muslim camps look even more dejected and worried, besides being poorer.  On August 5 as I was sitting with people in a camp in Bilasipara when Roja Aftar time arrived, I noted that they had only one bucket of dates and biscuit packets for aftaar for 2000 people. On behalf of Sadbhav Mission I offered them 1000 rupees to purchase additional dates. Same was the scene in another camp. At night often there is load shedding for several hours and these camps plunge into darkness besides exposing them to mosquito bite. People cook their own food from the ration (rice, pulses and oil) provided by the government and vegetables provided by local support or NGOs. In most places people of all the communities are coming forward to extend support. Despite heavy odds people are at peace. I wish they had a creative engagement. They could be given some training or exposure in relevant trades. Students can be given tutorial sessions, game sessions or could go for jogging.
            Mine was a short visit that began with my arrival in Guwahati at 7 AM. From the airport I took bus to train station. At 9:45 I took North East Express and got down at Kokrajhar at 1:20 PM. I walked through the city and then took a tempo to Kashipara (8 km away). I visited a Muslim camp and walked 3 km to visit two villages. At 8 PM I met the DC. By that time curfew had started hence I stayed in the circuit house in a awesome room for Rs. 130. Next morning (August 4) at 7 AM, I walked to Bodo camp Swrang M.E. High School. People were nice. Some got annoyed when I mentioned Nellie massacre. From there I took tempo, minibus and bus to reach Dhubri by 12 noon. I walked to a relief camp and talked to people for one hour. This interaction was heartening. From there I went to Bholanath college. At 3:15 PM I met the DC and then left for Bilasipara. During 5 to 8:15 PM I visited 3 camps. Then took shelter in ABI hotel (for Rs. 250). It gave me the feeling of hardships faced by camp people as there was no light and mosquitoes were in abundance.   
            At 6 AM on August 5 I left for Kashipara and from there to Kokrajhar. I visted the Commerce College Bodo camp. People treated me with warmth and showed appreciation for peace efforts. At 12 noon I took Kamrup express to Guwahati. After reaching there I called some friends and left for the airport en route to Delhi.                       
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: vipin tripathi <tripathivipin@yahoo.co.in> Date: Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 1:17 AM
-- Peace Is Doable




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Re: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"



The stupid schizophrenic old shrew might also think that B. B. C. reporter also belongs to RSS/Sangh Paribar. The so called 'Actual facts' are cooked in her sterile brain.

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
 

                 Jiten Roy, Kamal Das, S. Bain. et al are getting their feed from their RSS/ Sangh Parivar unit about the millions & millions of destitute Bangladeshi refugees and illegal immigrants in India/ Assam. It does not matter how many reports and analysis of the actual facts and figures are presented to them.  They will repeat the same lies with the same bias again, & again, & again.




To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: kamalctgu@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:05:34 +0600

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"

 
Thus far, technology had been the real savior.  Once, it reaches a saturation point, the world would wake up to the grim reality of which Malthus had predicted.  As David Suzuki, the noted environmentalist said, billions would die.


On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

I am not talking about the prediction. Prediction did not come true because of excluded variables in the theory.

Jiten Roy

--- On Sun, 8/26/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, August 26, 2012, 8:19 PM

 

"It is, of course, well known that Malthus' predictions, which he derived from his model, were mistaken because his assumptions were both inadequate and faulty."
This is a quote from the masterpiece Asian Drama (Vol. II) by Gunnar Myrdal (p. 1857).
There is a danger in talking about the Malthusian Theory taught us by a B.A passed (probably in third division) school teacher in Bangladesh.
 
 

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"
 
Farida Majid: "Whether you like it or not, and you and the mukto-mona smart alecs may not have noticed it, the world has moved on from the early 19th century English  Protestant priest's fear -- The Malthus catastrophe. Any one who talks about the Malthusian principle is laughed at."
What is she talking about? Utter ignorance.

Malthusian Theory is always valid. Production can never grow at a geometric progression forever, but population can. Yes, population burden can be lessened through economic development and growth in the country up to a point, but - that cannot compete with the ever growing population forever. When the economic growth in the country cannot handle the population burden, demographic invasion/migration to neighboring countries starts to occur. Such demographic invasion/migration from Bangladesh is occurring in India now, and creating havoc there.  Recent carnages in Assam, West Bengal, Mumbai, etc. bear the hallmark of such demographic invasion/migration from Bangladesh, as indicated by Kamal Das.  Yet, some people are still supporting such population growth merely for the sake of the growth of Ummah, and trying to put lipstick on the pig, as Farida Majid just did.

Jiten Roy


--- On Sun, 8/26/12, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Deeldar Shah" <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Date: Sunday, August 26, 2012, 4:38 PM

 
       Whether you like it or not, and you and the mukto-mona smart alecs may not have noticed it, the world has moved on from the early 19th century English  Protestant priest's fear -- The Malthus catastrophe. Any one who talks about the Malthusian principle is laughed at.  Why are you babbling about Muslims in the same manner as Mohish Mohiuddin and, on the flip side, the Hindu communalists of Sangh Parivar and Bangladesh?             It has been hard to rock the secular foundation of Bengal (Bangladesh) and we all know what painful, terrifying, murderous attempts there have been made to do so in the past 75 years or so. I lose heart sometimes. The Jamaat-shibir-razakar gang and their Baap-chacha -- KSA & Uncle Sam-- keep putting on the crunches.  Bangladesh is increasingly an important South Asian country.  Our human resources are our greatest strength.  Again-- times don't stand still, and values, even in economic calculations, undergo changes.                    Farida Majid
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 13:00:47 -0700 From: shahdeeldar@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation" To: farida_majid@hotmail.com; mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com CC: kamalctgu@gmail.com
Well, well, you might not like his straight talk but he is not totally wrong. We are now more 160 millions and still breeding with a very fast rate with the hope that Allah will take care of us.  Obviously, the almighty does not care about our population growth or whether we should be forced to head for other countries in the future? The space is very limited in Bangladesh and there is already a spill over effect on surrounding countries whether you believe or not. No country would like to be overwhelmed by another fast growing population group with no intention to integrate but fight for a greater Ummah. These are legitimate fears whether you like or not. Muslims have failed to take care of its own problems. It is the quality that is needed not the quantity! -SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"
  Does this man Kamal Das have no other hobby than bashing Islam, bad-mouthing Muslims of Bangladesh and dispensing unsolicited,incoherent wisdom like disjointed dark-colored globules of shit (otherwise known as chhagoler naadi)?
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: kamalctgu@gmail.com Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:40:03 +0600 Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"  
A blind man is not expected to see anything.  The B. B. C. & CNN coverage on the episode had plenty of people speaking with Bangladeshi accent.
On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 11:28 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
I saw no trace of Bagladeshi offensive in the conflict, so systematically and vigorously orchestrated by BJP and VHP, led by L.K. Advani, Tarun Vijay and Praveen Togadia. They are playing with the lives of people and poisoning atmosphere for future. Bangladeshi is more of an abuse to humiliate Muslims who are native Indians. There may be a few percent Bangladeshis (as a Rajvanshi ex-serviceman in rural Kokrajhar put it at 10%), but even these, in all likelihood are labourers and labourers are no exploiters but an exploited lot.  They need to be treated with dignity. All countries have legal and illegal migrants.

>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly. At last some common sense!!

I have been to India but did not see large "Bangladeshi" population roaming around. I hear a lot about Bangladeshi shoppers who buys a lot of Indian goods and going for better treatment in India but don't think there are significant amount of Bangladeshi people that can cause social unrest.

Once of the problem is Muslims from West Bengal are treated like "Bangladeshi foreigners" in their own country. This is an Indian issue and Indian leadership need to address it properly.


Even if there are some insignificant number of "Illegals" in India, I don't think they are running out with a load of money in their pockets. We are talking India not Sweden!!
So treating every person with minimum dignity will bring India closer to her neighbors. Right now "Center" is hated by many Indians themselves and Indian policies are disliked by her neighbors. This is not how future super powers works. Maybe India can learn from China about foreign policies.
t 6 AM on August 5 I left for Kashipara and from there to Kokrajhar. I visted the Commerce College Bodo camp. People treated me with warmth and showed appreciation for peace efforts. At 12 noon I took Kamrup express to Guwahati.
>>>>>>>>> I am glad people are coming back their senses. Wish only peace and prosperity for these people. Hope politicians will not mislead these people any more. A peaceful, prosperous and stable India should be part of collective Bangladeshi wishes as well.

Shalom!

-----Original Message----- From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 10, 2012 5:27 am Subject: [mukto-mona] FW: "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"
 
From: sukla.sen@gmail.com Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:11:01 +0530 Subject: [india-unity] "Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is Disservice to the Nation"  
Bringing Bangladeshi Angle to Assamese Ethnic Conflict is
Disservice to the Nation
V.K. Tripathi, IIT Delhi
           The ethnic violence between Bodos and Muslims in Bodo territorial region of Assam is a national calamity. It has taken a toll of 65 innocent lives (besides the scores of people missing) and rendered 4 lakh homeless. The first priority of sane polity and responsible government is to restore the trust between the warring groups, Bodos and Muslims, without the slightest of ill will against any of the communities and isolate miscreants from the masses. Muslims are poorer, have lost more lives and fled in larger numbers (up to 80%) but Bodos are no economic elite. The creation of Bodo Territorial Council (covering 4 districts – Kokrajhar, Chirang, Baxa and Udalguri) by the Center in 2003, has given a section of them an upper hand but masses of both the communities are in hardships. 
            I spent three days (August 3 to 5) in the area, visited relief camps – 2 Bodo camps in Kokrajhar (with 560 and 1500 people) , 1 Muslim camp in Kashipara (960 people), 1 Muslim camp in Dhubri (360 people) and 3 Muslim camps in Bilasipara (2000, 2500 and 3500 people), visited a Muslim village Bhadyagudi, a mixed Bodo-Muslim village Bhatipara and met a cross-section of people. I also met Deputy Commissioner (DC) of Kokrajhar Mr.  Jayant Narlikar, DC of Dhubri Mr. Kumud Kalita and Principal, Vice Principal and Librarian of Bhola Nath College, Dhubri.
            I saw no trace of Bagladeshi offensive in the conflict, so systematically and vigorously orchestrated by BJP and VHP, led by L.K. Advani, Tarun Vijay and Praveen Togadia. They are playing with the lives of people and poisoning atmosphere for future. Bangladeshi is more of an abuse to humiliate Muslims who are native Indians. There may be a few percent Bangladeshis (as a Rajvanshi ex-serviceman in rural Kokrajhar put it at 10%), but even these, in all likelihood are labourers and labourers are no exploiters but an exploited lot.  They need to be treated with dignity. All countries have legal and illegal migrants. USA has a very significant percentage of illegal Mexicans. But who engages them and benefits from their hard work?"- the business class, for cheap labour. USA is immensely more powerful than us but it could not force the Mexicans out. India has limited resources and can't afford to sustain work force from neighbouring countries, hence legal ways, commensurate with workers' dignity, must be employed to identify and deport them and to stop their migration (if at all there is any loop hole). As far as the language of Muslims in the area is concerned, there is strong historical reason for it.  Kokrajhar district borders with West Bengal and Dhubri with Bangladesh. 100-150 years ago British tea planters brought labourers from Bengal where Muslims were a predominant landless work force. Thus they speak Bengali. One more observation. In 1971 India welcomed lakhs of Hindu-Muslim refugees as a part of strategy on Bangladesh. Many of them overstayed.
            The current conflict developed as a chain event. Miscreants killed two Muslims on July 6. On July 19, a prominent Muslim suffered bullet injuries and a mob killed 4 Bodos, Subsequently sporadic killings of Muslims and display of fire power by Bodo elements, created a frightening atmosphere, forcing people to flee their homes. In Muslim dominated areas Bodos were made to flee. Once people fled, many of their homes were looted and put on fire.  Most camps, having over 2.5 lakh Muslim refugees, are located in Dhubri district.  This district with 80% Muslim population suffered no loss of life  Bodos from six villages had to flee to Kokrajhar.
            Bodo insurgents have carried a long drawn violent struggle for separate Bodoland. In 2003 Center created BTAD (Bodoland Territorial Autonomous Districts) giving substantial authority to Bodos (about 35 seats in the 40 member BTC Council). This created a wedge between them and other communities (Muslims, Santhals and Rajvanshis) who have a much larger share in population. Many insurgent groups surrendered their arms but some still have them.  Disarming them is a major responsibility of the state.
            All relief camps are facing severe hardships. The Muslim camps look even more dejected and worried, besides being poorer.  On August 5 as I was sitting with people in a camp in Bilasipara when Roja Aftar time arrived, I noted that they had only one bucket of dates and biscuit packets for aftaar for 2000 people. On behalf of Sadbhav Mission I offered them 1000 rupees to purchase additional dates. Same was the scene in another camp. At night often there is load shedding for several hours and these camps plunge into darkness besides exposing them to mosquito bite. People cook their own food from the ration (rice, pulses and oil) provided by the government and vegetables provided by local support or NGOs. In most places people of all the communities are coming forward to extend support. Despite heavy odds people are at peace. I wish they had a creative engagement. They could be given some training or exposure in relevant trades. Students can be given tutorial sessions, game sessions or could go for jogging.
            Mine was a short visit that began with my arrival in Guwahati at 7 AM. From the airport I took bus to train station. At 9:45 I took North East Express and got down at Kokrajhar at 1:20 PM. I walked through the city and then took a tempo to Kashipara (8 km away). I visited a Muslim camp and walked 3 km to visit two villages. At 8 PM I met the DC. By that time curfew had started hence I stayed in the circuit house in a awesome room for Rs. 130. Next morning (August 4) at 7 AM, I walked to Bodo camp Swrang M.E. High School. People were nice. Some got annoyed when I mentioned Nellie massacre. From there I took tempo, minibus and bus to reach Dhubri by 12 noon. I walked to a relief camp and talked to people for one hour. This interaction was heartening. From there I went to Bholanath college. At 3:15 PM I met the DC and then left for Bilasipara. During 5 to 8:15 PM I visited 3 camps. Then took shelter in ABI hotel (for Rs. 250). It gave me the feeling of hardships faced by camp people as there was no light and mosquitoes were in abundance.   
            At 6 AM on August 5 I left for Kashipara and from there to Kokrajhar. I visted the Commerce College Bodo camp. People treated me with warmth and showed appreciation for peace efforts. At 12 noon I took Kamrup express to Guwahati. After reaching there I called some friends and left for the airport en route to Delhi.                       
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: vipin tripathi <tripathivipin@yahoo.co.in> Date: Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 1:17 AM
-- Peace Is Doable






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****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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