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Sunday, November 3, 2013

Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism



Dear Dr Roy:
Your doubts and points are genuine. You have a right to reject Marx and Marxism but if I have judged you properly, you have an open mind. But I have some differences with you.It is wrong to state that Marxism has failed as it was not applied at all. Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, Pol Pot etc had indulged in misinterpretation of Marx. What they dished out as Maxism was a brazen distortion of Marx and Engels.

We must refrain from give a dog a bad name and hang it.

If you are interested, I suggest you to read some of Paresh Chattopadhyay's papers like Myth of Twentieth Century Socialism.
Warmly,
Sankar Ray
 




From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 23:21:02
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism
 

Shankar-da,

As I said before, the best way to initiate a discussion on any subject is to make a case for it. Think of this forum as a court-room, where you make your case before the judge.

So, please make a case for Marx, and Marxism.  Tell us why we should learn more about Marx, particularly  now, when all those experts like - Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. miserably failed to implement Marx's theory.  You are not doing that. Instead,  you are asking readers to read about Marx without telling why. You asked us to read your article, I did that , but - no case was made there.  If you have a valid point why we need Marx now, please make that case. Otherwise,  I have no interest to learn more about Marx right now.

Jiten Roy



On Sunday, November 3, 2013 12:23 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I did not say that you said those words. Actually, you did not say much and that is a problem. If you want to discuss your little pet subject, you should have a good scientific rigor to begin with before you demanding that from others. Since, we can't get much of your opinion except some references about Marxism, why not drop the subject and move on. I got no personal axe to grind with you, brother. To me Marxism is dead as a stone. It has no future as it was envisioned by Marx and his trusted disciples.

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Sunday, November 3, 2013 10:15 AM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
 
Again, you (SD) have assumed something about me arbitrarily, I never said, ' Marxism is science'. And never like religious bigots, did I look up at Marx as 'prophet'. I am not a Marxist but consider him the most acceptable among all philosophers and economists.I accept his motto, taken from Descartes, Doubt everything, and that prompts me to study and learn from Marx with a critical mindset. Permit me to state, bias against Marx or Marxism is not consistent with scientific temper, that too without adequate knowledge of Marx.

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 00:27:30
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism
 
Needless to say you won't get any better reception than what you have already got. You started this discussion, but you have not stated anything concrete about Marxism except to say that true Marxism has not been applied or studied. Now, I can't say Marxism is a social ideology because Marx hated that terminology. Your Hindustan time's snippet does not add anything more than what you stated already. It sounds like you are defending your prophet's honor and words because you are totally dedicated to his messages. Marxism is not Science, brother! I do work with science and face reviewers' critics everyday.
Thank you. I would rather rest my case here.
-SD



 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:40 AM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
 
Please don't put your words into my pen. I never said Marxism is a 'social ideology', Marx used to hate the word ideology In fact, in German Ideology, Marx characterised as 'camera obscura'. Ideology suits capitalists and pseudo-Marxists or every official communist party of the 20th Century. In fact, I would not spare Lenin too here. I wrote a piece in the Hindustan Times, taking up this point.http://www.hindustantimes.com/comment/columnsothers/totally-off-the-marx/article1-839109.aspx

You put a question. 'Are you going to bring sociologists and doctors to make your point? '. This query is bereft of scientific temper. If one has to be objective, one will not ask/say who states or writes this/that. But if one does the opposite, one becomes subjective. It seems you don't have the patience even to read the seminal paper by Dr Clarke.

Frankly speaking, I erred in initiating the debate. It seems the papers/references, I mentioned are not even read by most of those who participated.

I seek apology for initiating the debate.

Wish you all the very best

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, 02 Nov 2013 04:18:30
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism
 
Are you going to bring sociologists and doctors to make your point? My dear friend, this is an interactive forum, where you make your points with your own take about Marxism or any subject that you want to discuss. Your point has been so far is that Marxism is truly a great social ideology, but yet to be practiced/applied properly in any society? I say, there is a problem between the theory and its application. I can go as far as to say that even Marx, himself would not be able to put his theory in practice. Not then and not now!

Not to disappoint you entirely, I have no problem to say that I have profound respect for the man as a great economist and philosopher of our time. He made his mark and we owe him for his great contribution. Thank you.
-SD 


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:21 AM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
I would request you to read a paper by a prominent Marxist sociologist-
Was Lenin a Marxist? The Populist Roots of Marxism-Leninism
Simon Clarke, Department of Sociology, University of Warwick (http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~syrbe/pubs/lenin.pdf)
.
I think the debate may get out of a stagnant state as most of you refuse to critically look at Lenin and Plekhanov.
Will come back to Paris Commune and Spanish revolution later.

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:34:53
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism
 
"This is a grave misjudgement. From Plekhanov to Lenin-Trotsky, from Stalin to Mao, and from Gramsci-Lucas to Althusser one finds distortion of Marx. Marxism is yet to be applied , except partially in Paris Commune and Spanish Revolution (1930s)."

How do you conclude that Marxism was partially introduced in Paris Commune and Spanish Revolution? Why partially? And, what else was missing from that system? I find it very odd that you claim yourself as being not a perfect Marxist and yet, you are ready to judge other systems. Marxism was put in practice by some revolutionary leaders but it just did not work. The experiment went wrong and you conveniently call them Leninism or Maoism? What makes you so sure that Marxism is so precise that it can be applied in its pure form and it should work? I am not sure I understand your lines of arguments. As I said before, you sound like some of our Islamist, who still think that there is a purer form of Islam that solve all our problems.

It is laughable that you still dreaming of a day when pure Marxism will be applied somewhere on this earth and people will start singing Kumbaya my Lord? That sounds like a wet dream to me. 
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:42 PM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
 
I thought I would refrain myself from the debate about whether Marxism is valid or not.Sadly enough, most of the participants to whom I am too very grateful assume that Marxism has failed. This is a grave misjudgement. From Plekhanov to Lenin-Trotsky, from Stalin to Mao, and from Gramsci-Lucas to Althusser one finds distortion of Marx. Marxism is yet to be applied , except partially in Paris Commune and Spanish Revolution (1930s).

I am giving a link to another piece of mine in Daily Times (must be read critically)

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2013\09\23\story_23-9-2013_pg3_5.

But I want to draw attention of Mukto-mona members to MEGA, the historic project of publishing Marx and Engels, insulated from 'partyocracy. I wrote an introductory on MEGA in kafila.org, but I would suggest all to read
Publishing  Marx and  Engels  after  1989: The fate of the MEGA

Lastly, my knowledge of Marx and Marxism (Leninism etc) is journalistic, not at all profound.
Sankar Ray

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Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism



Apparently, I suffered from the same virus that attacked Michael Dutt over a century ago.  Fortunately, I did not have to beg like him to stay alive.  For a person lucky enough to have required meals everyday, contentment arrives from seeing him/herself better off than those available in the vicinity.  That instinct is served better in the third world.  I would rather be the head of a cat than the tail of lion.


On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 1:08 AM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

While I do not always agree with Dr. Das or Dr. Roy, I think the criticism of Dr. Das going back to Bangladesh was unwarranted.
 
Just because Bangladesh is a third world country with serious poverty, in terms of both material and mind, not all people from Bangladesh would/should choose to stay back in foreign countries that they visit for education, tourism, business, etc. While I personally have no plan to go back to settle in Bangladesh, I do like people who go back, and take the direct heat of the horrible situation in my birthplace (Bangladesh) and tries to improve human life and dignity there. I do fully recognize a thing called "love for the motherland", and respect that particularly when it is done with a lot of sacrifice and discomfort.
 
As for multiculturalism in the USA, I do not have any respect for many hateful and idiotic cultures of the world. Instead of too much of the multiple cultures, I prefer a blend of good cultures from all parts of the world.
 
Sukhamaya Bain 
 
===============================

From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2013 12:16 PM

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism
 
The whole episode with Dr. Kamal Das is disturbing to me. He hates American and left USA because it has a pressure-cooker society. His wise choice was - to go back to Bangladesh in search of freedom.

When I think about him – I see a man, who most people probably call Malaun, and has very little rights, and cannot even dare to say whatever he really wants to say. He is probably watching his back 24/7. Yet, he hates America, where most people can live relatively free, without fear of blatant religious persecution. It does not make sense to me.

A little more information about Multiculturalism in America:

I am a first generation immigrant, so I know what I am saying. These are not my ideological opinions; these are based on my personal observations.

While I was in Mount Sinai Medical University, I was a member of the selection committee of the residency program. We were interviewing for new medical residents for the department. One of the doctors came from Bangladeshi Muslim family. She did not hide her heritage even during her interview; I gave her high marks for that. When the interview was over, we all met in the conference room for the final selection. To my utter surprise, I found that everybody else has given her a title of "Princes" instead of good score. I learned something from this incidence.

I know multiculturalism is an intellectually ideal concept, but that's not good enough in practice. Many good theories did not work in practice.

Most people judge multiculturalism with emotions and idealism, but reality is different.  I am confident about the fact that - many people are being deprived off their due opportunity just because of the fear of cultural mismatch in the department. This is not just my fear, American administrators have this fear also, and that's why they have quota system in some of the government and semi-government institutions, but, how about most non-government, and private institutions?
 
This should not be judged as hatred or intent of discrimination; it's out of a fear of the unknown.  So, my advice is not to bring your heritage in the workplace. I hear many stories, where Muslim workers bring their religion into workplace, in addition to many other cultural heritages. They become eye-sore in the section pretty quickly.
 

This is why I came to the conclusion that multiculturalism may contribute to the underclass in the society. I also fear that this could be the driving force behind the support for multiculturalism by most politicians. In American dynamic society, people move up the societal ladder. So, a constant supply of underclass people is needed in this society. Multiculturalism will serve as a retarding agent in the social dynamism. It's the 'opium' of the first generation immigrants.

I know most of these things will not register with many of you.

Jiten Roy

On Sunday, November 3, 2013 10:11 AM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
"As the proverb says, "New converts sing hymns louder", you are a perfect example of a new convert."

His other choice would have been to stay back in Bangladesh and live like a protected species with no guarantee of free speech or security.  In the US, he has probably more rights than he would ever had in any other places. I think he is a good convert with a great cause.  -SD
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss

On Saturday, November 2, 2013 7:40 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
"Trilok"- Ain't the word "Tilok"?"I know you hate America, but you should know - it was not America's fault that you had to leave for a third world country."  - Such comment is manifestation of losing an argument.  As for myself, I left on my own choice.
"This is how we become a part of the   melting-pot. This is valid only for the first generation of immigrants; second generation will learn on their own." - Every country on earth is a melting pot  U.S.A. is a pressure cooker.  Every year, about a quarter of a million white Americans leave for elsewhere.  Even after staying for generations, African Americans feel alienated.  As the proverb says, "New converts sing hymns louder", you are a perfect example of a new convert.
On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 12:29 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
My observation is from my own life experiences. I do not usually form opinion based on other peoples' opinions. I am not here to convince anyone, either. My observation of American Society for 30+ years leads me to conclude that one of the reasons, among many others, for the growth of economic underclass in America is multiculturalism.

In 1989, there was a vacancy for a junior level technician in our section at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. An Indian guy applied. When he saw me, he came up to me and asked me to pursue his case. I talk to him for a while, and looked at his CV. I was convinced that he will be a very good technician.  I know that - section head likes me, so I thought I will plead for him. I went to my boss and said - this guy has excellent experiences in the field. Can we hire him? He said - he will look at his CV, and let me know.

After a month, my boss called me. He said - "Jiten, I agree he has good experiences; but, I am not sure he will be a good match with other."  When the final decision was made - he was not selected. At that point something hit me. I realized that – no matter how good you are - first you have to get hired, and, to get hired, you need to be likeable to others in the section. That's a very important factor to be successful in whatever you do.

There was another Indian post-doc scientist, used to work in the Rockefeller University Lab. He used to live in the same building with us. Every morning I used to see him going to work. He would put on "Trilok" and used to recite God's name holding a small bag containing a bead-chain (Jopomala). I thought - he must have applied from India, and was hired based on his CV. Then I heard - he left for India at the end of his contract.
 
Being immigrant creates multitudes of obstacles in our ways. We often do not know how to relate and talk to other American colleagues, so we all can feel at home. This is important for being successful in here.
The bottom line is we need to be acceptable to others wherever we work. This means, we have to give up certain characteristics and adopt some new characteristics. This is how we become a part of the   melting-pot. This is valid only for the first generation of immigrants; second generation will learn on their own.

Jiten Roy

On Saturday, November 2, 2013 12:19 PM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
I am living in the American multi-culturalism for 30 years, you are not.

>>>>>>>> Didn't you say that multi-culturism causing "Americans" to accept food stamp (..)? So what gives (If you do not understand the question,kindly ask your kids and they will translate it for you) ?   So, don't you dare to teach me about American multi-culturalism>>>>>>> OK. Please teach us about it. When did it start?

Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Fri, Nov 1, 2013 9:37 pmSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism
 


I know you hate America, but you should know -
it was not America's fault that you had to leave for a third world country. I am living in the American multi-culturalism for 30 years, you are not.  So, don't you dare to teach me about American multi-culturalism; I can learn from my life experiences, which you can't. Your arrogance knows no bound. I cannot get down to your level.






On Friday, November 1, 2013 9:52 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Having the dream of growing reach is not essentially American.  It is universal.  Those who initiated Boston Tea Party wanted their fare share in the British Parliament with a larger Government.  The Republican "Tea Party" men today are trying to fool the American people by pretending to be the defenders of independence.  You may be convinced about their ideology and join the losers.  That is your choice.

The cause of deterioration of American Society is wrongly diagnosed by you.  It is their dependence on the Military-Industrial complex or for that matter dependence on Big corporate culture.  May be you or your children would witness Marx's prediction come true in the great land called United States of America.

How dare you preach against multiculturalism?  How did U. S. A. come into present shape.  Read history and find out.  Return the Spanish territory to its rightful owners.  English was made the Official Language after it won in the Senate by one vote against the German.  What language do your family members speak?  Bangla or Banglish?
On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 4:44 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

"that society is now the envy of the rest of the world." - it was probably so about five decades ago.  Presently, in the quality of public life index, the Americans are not in the top ten list. – K. Das

Do you know how American society got deteriorated so such? Recent immigrants have rejected the American melting-pot idealism; they want to keep their own culture and identity. Many recent immigrants prefer to use their own language, and, therefore, mix with their own community only; many of them do not even bother to learn English. They are the new backward class.
 
Multiculturalism has changed the social psyche. Millions of people now believe they deserve government benefits; this was not the case a few decades ago. People used to feel ashamed to accept any government help. Very few would accept food stamps. Now, about 100 million people receive food stamp; people even hide their actual income to seek food stamp. It's not a taboo any longer. This explains the lower standard of living.
 
"And lastly, if you have no problem with tea party mentality, you are suffering from severe identity crisis.  You have come to that land hundreds of years after that incident. " – K. Das
 
I do not know what identity crisis has to do with Tea-Party mentality. Tea-Party mentality means smaller government mentality; I support that. That's all. What that has to do with identity crisis.
 
What is one's identity, anyway? Are you trying to say – someone coming from a poor country should not have American dreams? Have you heard the story of Steve Jobs, the founder of the Apple Empire? He was dirt poor in his early life; Bill Gates did not start from a rich background either. These people show how – anybody can think rich and be rich; it has nothing to do with identity. 
 
You must be suffering from the depressive Marxist mentality?
 
 
Jiten Roy
On Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:07 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
"If you think this change will install full-fledged Marxist Socialism in the Industrial Societies, you could be wrong." - I have never thought so, or preached it.  Marxist Socialism never was implemented in any country.  Some Orwellian pigs came to power preaching it and could not sustain in it lacking popular participation.
"that society is now the envy of the rest of the world." - it was probably so about five decades ago.  Presently, in the quality of public life index, the Americans are not in the top ten list.

And lastly, if you have no problem with tea party mentality, you are suffering from severe identity crisis.  You have come to that land hundreds of years after that incident.  Though that incident occurred to demand reservation in the British Parliament, the ultra right of the Republicans are antidemocratic in every bit of their action and, lacking foresight, actually digging their own grave.
On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 5:31 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Dr. Das,
Of course I can see some socialist principles are creeping into the Industrial Societies. As I told before - society needs to balance these two extreme systems. If you think this change will install full-fledged Marxist Socialism in the Industrial Societies, you could be wrong. Don't forget so quickly, Capitalism is also creeping into the Socialist Russian and Chinese societies.
 
Yes, thousands of lives were lost in the American Civil War to build a greater American Society, and that society is now the envy of the rest of the world. So, the lives lost in American Civil war is not in vein, unlike the lives lost for installing the Socialism around the world, which ultimately crumbled on it's own weight.

The Tea-Party mentality is needed to maintain the check & balance between the Capitalist and Marxist systems. So, I have no problem with it.


Thanks.
Jiten Roy

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 6:49 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
"Mr. Ray, Marx wrote - socialism will not come without revolution to the extent of destruction and dissolution of the society."- Citation please.

World has seen no more violent a change than the American Civil War.  What is your opinion about it Dr. Roy?  Besides, have you heard about Fabian Socialism?  Don't you think, it has already creeped in most of the Industrial Societies?  There is no turning back.  With your tea party mindset of Republican Party variety, your observation about socialism is totally wrong.
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 4:55 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Mr. Ray said:
Marx wrote in a polemic in 1844, "Without revolution socialism cannot be viable. It needs this political act to the extent that it needs destruction and dissolution."
 
World has seen and known revolutions in Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, etc. causing destruction and dissolution of existing societies in the name of installing socialism around the world. In the process – at least hundred million lives were lost. After all these destruction and death, the socialist empire crumbled, without counter-revolution by the capitalist system; no life was lost; no destruction and dissolution of anything needed either; socialism crumbled on its own weight. That's how it's supposed to be. Yet, Mr. Ray still finds prospect of real Marxist socialism in this day and age.
 
Mr. Ray, Marx wrote - socialism will not come without revolution to the extent of destruction and dissolution of the society. Are you suggesting people will go for another revolution to install real Marxist society, much like the previous ones, and millions of people will sacrifice lives again? If not, what are we going to do with Marxism today?
 
Jiten Roy
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:31 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
"The point is to remember Marx's motto, taken from Descartes: De omnibus dubitandum (doubt everything)." - Descartes might have got the idea from Buddhist dictum which says, "Doubt everything even if I told you."
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
 
I thought I would refrain myself from the debate about whether Marxism is valid or not.Sadly enough, most of the participants to whom I am too very grateful assume that Marxism has failed. This is a grave misjudgement. From Plekhanov to Lenin-Trotsky, from Stalin to Mao, and from Gramsci-Lucas to Althusser one finds distortion of Marx. Marxism is yet to be applied , except partially in Paris Commune and Spanish Revolution (1930s).I am giving a link to another piece of mine in Daily Times (must be read critically)http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2013%5C09%5C23%5Cstory_23-9-2013_pg3_5.But I want to draw attention of Mukto-mona members to MEGA, the historic project of publishing Marx and Engels, insulated from 'partyocracy. I wrote an introductory on MEGA in kafila.org, but I would suggest all to read
Publishing  Marx and  Engels  after  1989: The fate of the MEGA
Lastly, my knowledge of Marx and Marxism (Leninism etc) is journalistic, not at all profound.Sankar Ray
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Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism



Dhiren Dutt was received at Dacca airport with a garland of shoes as he returned from that constituent assembly.  Jinnah could not speak Urdu, yet the ruling clique in Pakistan wanted it as the National Language like those in India wanted Hindi.  All these happened as the consequence of the partition of Bengal.  The committee to select the Indian National Language was chaired by Suniti Chattopadhay.  He used his own vote in favor of Hindi.  Later, political unrest caused by imposing Hindi on others was quelled by three language solution.

Problem with the Islamist fools is that they adore anything under the Arabic garbs,scripts, etc.  They believe that some day they would conquer the whole world like those under the Arabic garbs.  They have essentially the same mindset with cataracted vision.  Though the days of treating Mandarin as the lingua franca may not be far away.


On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 12:21 AM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

If Direndra Nath Dutta were not there in Pakistani Constituent assembly in 1948, the idiots would have swallowed the Urdu pill for good. What they got to loose when most of the population wanted try a language that was designed for the great Ummah? The way things are moving now, I would not be surprised if Arabic becomes our next mother tongue?


 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss



On Saturday, November 2, 2013 7:35 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
"Your forefathers (During 1951) refused to assimilate to the language of the federal government (Urdu) and give up their language (Bangla), so why the double standard?" This is a stupid Paki argument.

"Did you know that Mr. Job comes from Arabic heritage?"- His Arabian Dad disowned him after birth, so his mother got married elsewhere and Jobs was the title of the man she married.  Typical Muslim(Arabian) attitude--"Screw the woman and forget the offspring".  Steve did not allow his biological father to contact him after he became famous.

(Low IQ is a requirement of the tea-party club!!) -An intelligent observation indeed.




On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 10:46 PM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 


Many recent immigrants prefer to use their own language, and, therefore, mix with their own community only; many of them do not even bother to learn English. They are the new backward class.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your forefathers (During 1951) refused to assimilate to the language of the federal government (Urdu) and give up their language (Bangla), so why the double standard?



Now, about 100 million people receive food stamp; people even hide their actual income to seek food stamp. It's not a taboo any longer. This explains the lower standard of living.

>>>>>>>>>>>> So "Multi-cultarism" caused this?


Tea-Party mentality means smaller government mentality; I support that.

>>>>>>>>>> Nope. It means whole lot more than that. An intolerant bunch of people who wanted to hijack the US government to get their ways. No different than a thug. Unfortunately they are not smart enough to understand (Low IQ is a requirement of the tea-party club!!) that, even such stunt can bring down US government credit rating and ultimately cost billions to US tax payers. If they pull the same stunt again ( Shut down of the US government or defaulting on credit) in next three months, it will do more harm than what Bin Laden (Or his buddies) could do in 100 years!

These tea baggers happens to be very supportive of all US lead wars. When it comes to war they forget to speak about saving tax payer money. Only speak out when it comes to social services or education (Some moronic leaders of tea party want to shut down US department of education).

So maybe you need to learn more about this movement before you pledge to this group of morons.


What that has to do with identity crisis.

>>>>>>>> Like Rush Limbaugh fan club most members are white. They cannot make it while only (Like the old days) because it is illegal.



Steve Jobs, the founder of the Apple Empire? He was dirt poor in his early life;

>>>>>>> You are right. Did you know that Mr. Job comes from Arabic heritage?


Bill Gates did not start from a rich background either.

>>>>>>> Wrong. Bill's dad was rich and highly educated.


These people show how – anybody can think rich and be rich; it has nothing to do with identity.

>>>>>>>> Actually Barrack Obama captures the "American way" more than most well known Americans. Here is a black man (Actually he is bi-racial) who barely knew his biological father eventually became the first non-white American president. This can happen ONLY in America (With a middle name "Hossain").

Americans made huge progress (Still have racial issues but made progress) in racial equity. It also has two Indian American governors (Both in deep south).


I am glad you are proud of being American but it seems you tend to speak (And join groups) about topics without knowing much about them. One does not have to be American like you to explain America. Most Americans are unaware of the rest of their vast country. A man from Idaho does not know much about culture of New York. A foreign student who lived in New York city probably know more about NYC than most Americans. Then comes the sub-culture of each region and social norms. Which varies from place to place.

The NRA supporting Americans have very different world view (Similar to tea party folks) than rest of civilized Americans.

Shalom!

-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Nov 1, 2013 5:45 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism

 

"that society is now the envy of the rest of the world." - it was probably so about five decades ago.  Presently, in the quality of public life index, the Americans are not in the top ten list. – K. Das

Do you know how American society got deteriorated so such? Recent immigrants have rejected the American melting-pot idealism; they want to keep their own culture and identity. Many recent immigrants prefer to use their own language, and, therefore, mix with their own community only; many of them do not even bother to learn English. They are the new backward class.
 
Multiculturalism has changed the social psyche. Millions of people now believe they deserve government benefits; this was not the case a few decades ago. People used to feel ashamed to accept any government help. Very few would accept food stamps. Now, about 100 million people receive food stamp; people even hide their actual income to seek food stamp. It's not a taboo any longer. This explains the lower standard of living.
 
"And lastly, if you have no problem with tea party mentality, you are suffering from severe identity crisis.  You have come to that land hundreds of years after that incident. " – K. Das
 
I do not know what identity crisis has to do with Tea-Party mentality. Tea-Party mentality means smaller government mentality; I support that. That's all. What that has to do with identity crisis.
 
What is one's identity, anyway? Are you trying to say – someone coming from a poor country should not have American dreams? Have you heard the story of Steve Jobs, the founder of the Apple Empire? He was dirt poor in his early life; Bill Gates did not start from a rich background either. These people show how – anybody can think rich and be rich; it has nothing to do with identity. 
 
You must be suffering from the depressive Marxist mentality?
 
 
Jiten Roy


On Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:07 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
"If you think this change will install full-fledged Marxist Socialism in the Industrial Societies, you could be wrong." - I have never thought so, or preached it.  Marxist Socialism never was implemented in any country.  Some Orwellian pigs came to power preaching it and could not sustain in it lacking popular participation.

"that society is now the envy of the rest of the world." - it was probably so about five decades ago.  Presently, in the quality of public life index, the Americans are not in the top ten list.

And lastly, if you have no problem with tea party mentality, you are suffering from severe identity crisis.  You have come to that land hundreds of years after that incident.  Though that incident occurred to demand reservation in the British Parliament, the ultra right of the Republicans are antidemocratic in every bit of their action and, lacking foresight, actually digging their own grave.


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 5:31 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Dr. Das,

Of course I can see some socialist principles are creeping into the Industrial Societies. As I told before - society needs to balance these two extreme systems. If you think this change will install full-fledged Marxist Socialism in the Industrial Societies, you could be wrong. Don't forget so quickly, Capitalism is also creeping into the Socialist Russian and Chinese societies.
 
Yes, thousands of lives were lost in the American Civil War to build a greater American Society, and that society is now the envy of the rest of the world. So, the lives lost in American Civil war is not in vein, unlike the lives lost for installing the Socialism around the world, which ultimately crumbled on it's own weight.

The Tea-Party mentality is needed to maintain the check & balance between the Capitalist and Marxist systems. So, I have no problem with it.


Thanks.


Jiten Roy




On Thursday, October 31, 2013 6:49 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
"Mr. Ray, Marx wrote - socialism will not come without revolution to the extent of destruction and dissolution of the society."- Citation please.

World has seen no more violent a change than the American Civil War.  What is your opinion about it Dr. Roy?  Besides, have you heard about Fabian Socialism?  Don't you think, it has already creeped in most of the Industrial Societies?  There is no turning back.  With your tea party mindset of Republican Party variety, your observation about socialism is totally wrong.


On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 4:55 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Mr. Ray said:
Marx wrote in a polemic in 1844, "Without revolution socialism cannot be viable. It needs this political act to the extent that it needs destruction and dissolution."
 
World has seen and known revolutions in Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, etc. causing destruction and dissolution of existing societies in the name of installing socialism around the world. In the process – at least hundred million lives were lost. After all these destruction and death, the socialist empire crumbled, without counter-revolution by the capitalist system; no life was lost; no destruction and dissolution of anything needed either; socialism crumbled on its own weight. That's how it's supposed to be. Yet, Mr. Ray still finds prospect of real Marxist socialism in this day and age.
 
Mr. Ray, Marx wrote - socialism will not come without revolution to the extent of destruction and dissolution of the society. Are you suggesting people will go for another revolution to install real Marxist society, much like the previous ones, and millions of people will sacrifice lives again? If not, what are we going to do with Marxism today?
 
Jiten Roy


On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:31 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
 
"The point is to remember Marx's motto, taken from Descartes: De omnibus dubitandum (doubt everything)." - Descartes might have got the idea from Buddhist dictum which says, "Doubt everything even if I told you."


On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
 
I thought I would refrain myself from the debate about whether Marxism is valid or not.Sadly enough, most of the participants to whom I am too very grateful assume that Marxism has failed. This is a grave misjudgement. From Plekhanov to Lenin-Trotsky, from Stalin to Mao, and from Gramsci-Lucas to Althusser one finds distortion of Marx. Marxism is yet to be applied , except partially in Paris Commune and Spanish Revolution (1930s).

I am giving a link to another piece of mine in Daily Times (must be read critically)

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2013\09\23\story_23-9-2013_pg3_5.

But I want to draw attention of Mukto-mona members to MEGA, the historic project of publishing Marx and Engels, insulated from 'partyocracy. I wrote an introductory on MEGA in kafila.org, but I would suggest all to read
Publishing  Marx and  Engels  after  1989: The fate of the MEGA

Lastly, my knowledge of Marx and Marxism (Leninism etc) is journalistic, not at all profound.
Sankar Ray

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