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Thursday, December 20, 2012

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Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Who spawned communalism in India?



We have seen before that Das has least faith in Vivekananda. Now we see that Vivekananda is quotable to him. But that's O.K. But figures seem to be absurd. What happened? Hindus got killed by Muslim rulers or they converted to Islam? But Hindu and Muslim populations have not reversed during these five centuries! 
I would request Das to provide us with more details. I hope he will not ignore my request as he did in case of Bertrand Russell. 
There is no denying the fact that Muslim rulers like Mahmud of Ghazni looted and destroyed temples and killed Hindus and to do these they used their soldiers. But are there any historical evidences of communal clashes between two groups of ordinary citizens that we see now? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 19, 2012, at 7:17 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I do not cite Western references always, though they are more dependable than others.  Vivekananda cited Firestha, a Muslim historian of late twelfth century, and wrote the Hindu population was then 600 millions, during the Muslim rule it became 200 million in roughly five hundred years of Muslim rule.  Communal clash in India is a recent phenomenon, because before the British rule, it was one sided slaughter of Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs(who might have called themselves Shaikh to save their butts) committed by the Muslim rulers.  When somebody, a child of a spineless convert, calls Muslim rule peaceful, it is a tolerable lie.  The person suffers from identity crisis.  When an outright idiot of Katzu/Chakrabarty variety also believes such things, how and why does he think he has an opinion.  Instead of taking Katzu seriously, you should read Anwar Shaikh, a former rioter in favor of Muslims who became apostate.  He rightly points out the spinelessness of Hindus and the slaughter committed by Muslims on them through ages.

Am I 'nakedly' attacking anybody differing in opinion with me?  Are these empty heads worth my attack?


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Why is this Kamal guy like this? He is nakedly attacking every one with whom he differs in opinion. He seems to be a worshipper of orientalists. All his evidences come from orientalist sources. 
Instead of attacking me personally he should have done a little research to find why Katzu has opinions as presented in the article. My comment was based on my understanding of what he meant by communalism. I don't have to read Jadunath Sarkar to find that some Muslim rulers destroyed temples, killed innocent non-Muslims, and do on. Everybody knows it. But communal clash between Hindus and Muslims in general seems to be a recent phenomenon. To this has been added Hindu-Sikh and Hindu-Muslim clashes. While clash is the most extreme manifestation of communalism, we see other forms too. Katzu is right that this communalism is a great obstacle to economic progress. 
It is a thought provoking article and should be taken seriously. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 18, 2012, at 5:14 AM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

 

There was no communalism in India before 1857???!!!  Read Jadu Nath Sarker on the topic.  Communalism was at it's zenith during the Muslim rule.  The Chittorgarh fort alone was burnt thrice, last time by the 'non-communal' Akbar 'the Great'.  Over twelve thousand women had to drink poison and commit suicide in burning pyres.  Have you no sense of shame, if not any sense of history?  How were the Rajputs, Marathis and Sikhs crushed by the Muslim rulers?  In the Sultan period alone, eighty million Hindu heads rolled, countless women were sold as slaves.  Only non communal ruler among the Muslims, I suppose, was King Wazid Ali Shah of Oudh.  Even that was during the British rule.  Had the British not come, your fore fathers would have to chose between losing head or foreskin.

Do yourself a little favor, don a round white cap and never again exhibit your ignorance.  Muktomona forum, I believe, is not for those who have lost their minds.

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

AMU does not seem to be a factor as Katzu has said that 80 percent of both Hindus and Muslims have fallen victims to the evil designs of the British rulers. My opinion is that 80 percent is too big a number. It is only a big fraction of the educated people who are proactively communal. Ordinary people are least communal. 
There is nothing wrong in being communal as long as intention is not to favor people of one's own community unjustifiably and harm the members of a perceived rival community without a valid reason. 
The Divide and Rule policy that British adopted to rule India has been pointed to by others also. There was no communalism before 1857---seems to be true to me when I look at all the major communal riots between Hindus and Muslims, Muslims and Sikhs, and Hindus and Sikhs all of which happened over the last 100 years. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 17, 2012, at 7:05 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Justice Katzu has delivered a politically correct speech in the environment of Aligar Muslim University.  Only fools would take his speech seriously.  There is not much truth in it.  Communalism existed in India even from ancient times.  The concept of any religion considering itself superior to others is the root of communalism.

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 6:29 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 


"He said that he had no hesitation to state that politicians had played a major role in spreading this poison deeper for serving their own vote bank politics."

 

British may have fomented communalism in the Indian-subcontinent, but – the torch-bearers of communalism from then on have been our good politicians. I don't blame British so much; they did what they thought Indians will bite, and they did. It worked so well that Indians started to chew thumbs for 200 years, and British started to rule the country even though it was not their initial intent. Therefore, if we want to blame anybody for communalism, we have to blame our politicians; they can't seem to have enough of it.

Justice Markandey Katju is right – those who are real instigators of communalism never get punished. Only the foot soldiers of communalism get punished, not the queen-bees, who trade communalism. In Bangladesh, politicians use communalism for politics. While Awami League uses communalism covertly, BNP uses communalism nakedly; it's a part of BNP political strategy.

How can we ever end communalism, if the queen-bee of communalism controls the power structure?

Jiten Roy

 


--- On Sun, 12/16/12, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] FW: Who spawned communalism in India?
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "alapon@yahoogroups.com" <alapon@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:58 AM


 
  I sincerely believe in this statement which can be applicable to Pakistan and Bangladesh as well:

<< Katju said, "India's steep decline on the tragic path of communalism can be reversed and the country can become one of the greatest industrial powers in the world if the educated Indians accept the challenge of demolishing the demon of communalism from the country. India can only thrive and become strong if the edifice of secularism becomes the cornerstone in the everyday life of the common man."  >>


T
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 09:49:05 +0800
Subject: [india-unity] Who spawned communalism in India?

 

British spawned communalism. History books doctored?: Justice Katju

December 15, 2012 by admin   


Justice Markandey Katju delivering the lecture at the Aligarh Muslim University, Aligarh
Justice Markandey Katju delivering the lecture at the Aligarh Muslim University, Aligarh
Uttar Pradesh, December 13, 2012: Addressing a huge gathering at the Kennedy Auditorium organized by the Aligarh Muslim University Chapter of the Progressive Writers' Association, the Chairman of the Press Council of India, Justice (Retd.) Markandey Katju asserted that in 1857, there was almost zero percent communalism in the country while today 80% of both Hindus and Muslims had fallen prey to the devil's designs.
Quoting extensively from historical documents, Katju said, "There is a plethora of documentary evidence available including correspondence between different Viceroys and British government, which makes it clear that history books were deliberately doctored by the British rulers to spawn communalism in India."
Katju said, "India's steep decline on the tragic path of communalism can be reversed and the country can become one of the greatest industrial powers in the world if the educated Indians accept the challenge of demolishing the demon of communalism from the country. India can only thrive and become strong if the edifice of secularism becomes the cornerstone in the everyday life of the common man."
He added that it might take a few decades for the people to grasp the full reality of the roots of Hindu-Muslim conflict which was engineered by the British as a deliberate state policy for maintaining the British hold over India.
Making a point, Justice Katju declared that the real tragedy was that while the British sowed the seeds of discords in hearts and minds of the people, after independence agent provocateurs were continuing this nefarious policy. He said that he had no hesitation to state that politicians had played a major role in spreading this poison deeper for serving their own vote bank politics.
Referring to the ongoing battle against terror in the Indian Subcontinent, Katju said that there was ample evidence to suggest that whenever incidents of terror took place in India, very frequently innocent Muslim youth were randomly picked up by the security forces. This is not only unjust but also helps the actual perpetrators of such heinous crimes from esca


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Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate



Exactly. "Bishwase miloye hari, torke bohudoor. " But All the assertions of Rahaman are not faith-based. If Rabindranath could engage in a dialog with Einstein, you can also do the same with Rahman although you yourself also believe in God, which there is no fundamental difference between you and Rahman. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 20, 2012, at 9:20 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Logical discussion with a believer is impossible. Mr. Rahman believes that he has found the truth, that's his belief. He can't change his mind on the things he believes in. His efforts are always directed to establish those faiths, even they are illogical. First, one has to accept the premise that prophet or Guru has received revelations from God. Those who do not accept that premise cannot converse with those who do. Then there are some people, like Chakraborty and Manab Dharma, who do not know what they believe in. These people will put forth confusing arguments. What are you going to do? It's a crazy world up there.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Thu, 12/20/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 20, 2012, 8:47 PM

 
When direction was changed (Via God's revelation), he started facing towards Mecca. ... Direction was changed when he was praying on a Saturday along with Jews of Medina.  Revelation came from God(alter ego of the prophet) facing ridicule from the Jews in the congregation.

Look Mr. Rahman, stop exhibiting your shallowness even on things you claim to be an expert on.  Discuss these with someone of your standard, like Chakrabarty, Hannan, Manabdharma etc.  I don't love to post anything for you.  I have expressed it so many times.  Please do me a favor.  Read more and bleat less.

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM, qrahman@netscape.net <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
When direction was changed (Via God's revelation), he started facing towards Mecca.



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Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate



That some one was dark skinned does not mean that he or she was a Shudra or a Chandal. At least mythologies do not support it. Buddhadev Bose wrote a book on the Mahabharata. Later on his wife Pratibha Bose wrote another book on the Mahabharata. Pratibha Bose had more of a rebel spirit. To her the Pandavas and Krishna (also God) whom the Hindus in general consider as most pious were nothing but villains. Compare this with how Madhusudan saw Rama and his cohorts in the Ramayana. Vyasdev, the author ( as a matter of fact this epic had multiple authors) of the Mahabharata, was dark skinned. Droupadi was also called Krishna because of her dark skin. Pratibha Bose thought that Vyasdev belonging to a race with black skin glorified the black skinned. But Bose never said that these characters were Shudras or Chandals. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 20, 2012, at 7:21 AM, "qrahman@netscape.net" <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 

The black guy in Durga pratima is 'osur' (meaning a monster) may not be identified with Ravana of the Ramayana although Rama worshipped Durga before he encountered Ravana

>>>>>>>> I stand corrected. Thank you. I was thinking about Osur but wrote Ravana by mistake.


In course of time they mixed with the local people.

>>>>>>>>>> I understand. As an "Outsider" my point was, even among gods and goddesses, the one project fear, strength etc (Maybe Sri Krisna is exception) seems to be darker skinned people. I do not criticize religion but the point was made to show how we collectively think. Our movies also project the same idea most of the time.

Just look at the caste system. Mostly the fair skinned people call themselves "Brahmins". The darker skinned people are (Most of the time) part of "Lower castes".

I wanted to discuss our mentality here. These were used as an "EXAMPLES" only.

Having said that, as a Muslim we are told by our Maker that, every nation and tribes received some revelations. Parts of Veda are very similar to fundamentals of Islam. So it is not hard for us to imagine that, parts of very old scriptures are still in existence in Veda.  


Since, even later revelations like the OT and NT (The Bible) is not in it's original form, I can imagine some of the Veda were lost and some were later additions.

The important part is to remember that, we have much in common.

Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:45 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate

 
Few comments on Rahman's post. 
The black guy in Durga pratima is 'osur' (meaning a monster) may not be identified with Ravana of the Ramayana although Rama worshipped Durga before he encountered Ravana
Among the Indian epic characters you will see both fair and dark skinned which seems to be normal as we see now that among the Bengalis we also have varieties of physical characteristics. Aryans probably came via and from Iran. In course of time they mixed with the local people. That's why we see varieties. India is also a land of immigrants. Read Katzu article. Ranindranath has recognized it in one of his great poems. As far as I know all great epics, Vedas, Puranas, and other treatises like Kamasutra, Manu Sanhita, Arthashastra, etc. were written by indigenous scholars. All the Hindu idols are the creative imaginations mostly based on mythologies. So thinking Kali, for example, not comme nsurate with Hindu religion is not right. There is a mythological story behind the particular idol of Kali we see. There are more terrifying versions of Kali. Sunil in his Prothom Alo novel has mentioned that Aurobinda Ghosh used to worship Bogla Devi, a most horrifying version of Kali or Durga. Probably he wanted strength so that he could fight against the British rule. Indian myths are interesting. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 18, 2012, at 10:36 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 
Member Das,

Not going answer your "Personal attacks" here. I think readers should judge me based on what I say here.


Just a clarification on my "Durga" comment. I am not calling her "A white skinned lady" but here we see a goddess who appeared "White" and the bad guy is of course is a "Dark skinned" Raban (AKA Ravana). I am NOT criticizing your faith, simply sharing an observation here.


Similarly if you look at most Hindi or Bangla movies from last 50 years, you will see the same TREND here. The "Good guy" is someone who does not look like an average Indian or Bengali but he is the hero!!


The point of this sharing is the native population have been "INVADED" many thousand years ago. Staring from Upanishad to other scriptures were written by those "Outsiders". Most of the gods and goddesses are also look more like someone from Afghanistan or Iran than someone from Bihar. For many hundred years, this evolved into what we call "Indian tradition".


You will observe similar things with Christianity as well. Since what we know as "Modern Christianity" is mostly influenced by Paul. Most of the NT verses were Paul's observation rather that what Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) said to his followers. If anyone is curious, there is an edition of Bible call "Red letter Bible" where commands from Jesus son of Mary (PBUH)
. You will discover how many outsiders gotten into the narrative. Also if you watch most movies on Jesus son of Mary (PBUH), you will see an European man than a Jew from Palestine. In reality, Jesus looked more like the average native Palestinian than a Nordic man from Sweden. But this is how it was influenced by local cultures. As per Bible Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) prayed on Saturdays but his "Followers" pray on Sundays!!


So most Christian think of Jesus as an European man.


Similarly Hindus religious figures also have a look that is NOT native Indian!! 



and don't see Kali as black.

>>>>>>>>> Very good question!

Yes I do. She is not exactly presented as "Showing lot of love" to people. She comes with Ma Kali wears a garland of skulls and a skirt of dismembered arms. She holds a sword and a freshly severed head dripping blood. NOT exactly a "Selling point" about goodness in Hinduism.

Again this is my OBSERVATION only as an "Outsider".

No matter how much word playing one does, you cannot escape the racist mentality in our sub-continent. Albeit Islam teaches us to be color blind but many Muslims are not. They are more influenced by local culture than religion. Even Arabs are not free from it either.

That is the reason I always speak about the Qur'an and last prophet Muhammad (PBUH), when we discuss about Islam.

Anyway, take it easy.

Shalom!




-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate

 
Mr. Rahman

You took course in a University on the subject of Aryans! Read
Koenraad Elst on the subject, he sure is not an 'ignorant Hindutva'
badi as you think. Fact remains that you read nothing of any
significance on anything, and understood even less. You see Durga as
white skinned lady, and don't see Kali as black. Can you connect
these ladies with Anahita?

Don't ever pretend the knowledge you don't have.

Reply via web post


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Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate



Logical discussion with a believer is impossible. Mr. Rahman believes that he has found the truth, that's his belief. He can't change his mind on the things he believes in. His efforts are always directed to establish those faiths, even they are illogical. First, one has to accept the premise that prophet or Guru has received revelations from God. Those who do not accept that premise cannot converse with those who do. Then there are some people, like Chakraborty and Manab Dharma, who do not know what they believe in. These people will put forth confusing arguments. What are you going to do? It's a crazy world up there.
 
Jiten Roy

--- On Thu, 12/20/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 20, 2012, 8:47 PM

 
When direction was changed (Via God's revelation), he started facing towards Mecca. ... Direction was changed when he was praying on a Saturday along with Jews of Medina.  Revelation came from God(alter ego of the prophet) facing ridicule from the Jews in the congregation.

Look Mr. Rahman, stop exhibiting your shallowness even on things you claim to be an expert on.  Discuss these with someone of your standard, like Chakrabarty, Hannan, Manabdharma etc.  I don't love to post anything for you.  I have expressed it so many times.  Please do me a favor.  Read more and bleat less.

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM, qrahman@netscape.net <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
When direction was changed (Via God's revelation), he started facing towards Mecca.



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Call For Articles:

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate



When direction was changed (Via God's revelation), he started facing towards Mecca. ... Direction was changed when he was praying on a Saturday along with Jews of Medina.  Revelation came from God(alter ego of the prophet) facing ridicule from the Jews in the congregation.

Look Mr. Rahman, stop exhibiting your shallowness even on things you claim to be an expert on.  Discuss these with someone of your standard, like Chakrabarty, Hannan, Manabdharma etc.  I don't love to post anything for you.  I have expressed it so many times.  Please do me a favor.  Read more and bleat less.

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM, qrahman@netscape.net <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
When direction was changed (Via God's revelation), he started facing towards Mecca.



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Call For Articles:

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




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Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate



No prophet ever had a power to perform miracle.  Muhammad denied it himself.  Koenraad Elst has an interesting book entitled "Psychology of Prophetism".  It is available on the net, I suppose interested persons would read.  It may be interesting to know that all prophets and preachers had symptoms of epilepsy as recorded in history.  All of them had arrested mental growth by modern medical and psychological analyses.  They were under the influence of psychedelic drugs, saw visions, and turned violent when necessary to achieve their goals.

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Another crap! How do you get to that conclusion about historians being more interested in prophets? It is rather the herds, who are more interested in prophets for their miracle power?
-SD 
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Manab Dharma <manabdharma@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:26 AM

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate

 
Deities are not at all worth of discussion. All mumbo jumbo. Idolatry. Hocus Bocus. Historical figures like prophets are the core interest for historians, anthropologists and archeologists. Well, deities have some values of course - some sociologists find fairy tales appealing. I also do since I got post-modern interpretations out of functionalism, conflictism and interactionaism, but only just.



From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate

 
I asked you to connect Durga/Kali with Anahita(If you ever heard her name).  Your are not a person who deserves my personal attack.  Like you, I don't have a faith,  let alone be blinded by it.  As I understand, Ram/Ravana epic is not even Indian in origin. "Starting from Upanishad to other scriptures were written by those Outsiders"  -  Really?  What an invention!  Most of the Vedas is said to have been written by Agastya, most Puranas by Vyasdeva, and Upanishads had been written over a long period of time, roughly over a thousand years starting from eighth century before the common era.  Agastya and Vyas were definitely dark skinned.  Contribution by the "invading Aryans" in Hindu literature is really negligible.  Most deities of Indian religions that go by the name of Hinduism are dark skinned.  I wish you had the eyes to see them.  Your observations are almost always superficial.  To find out why Christians pray on Sunday, read the ancient history of Rome.  Didn't your prophet also observe Saturday as the day of congregation till he changed his direction of prayer?

I don't mean to offend you, but you are one of those who don't comprehend enough to be a discussant of what I post here.


On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:36 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Member Das,

Not going answer your "Personal attacks" here. I think readers should judge me based on what I say here.


Just a clarification on my "Durga" comment. I am not calling her "A white skinned lady" but here we see a goddess who appeared "White" and the bad guy is of course is a "Dark skinned" Raban (AKA Ravana). I am NOT criticizing your faith, simply sharing an observation here.


Similarly if you look at most Hindi or Bangla movies from last 50 years, you will see the same TREND here. The "Good guy" is someone who does not look like an average Indian or Bengali but he is the hero!!


The point of this sharing is the native population have been "INVADED" many thousand years ago. Staring from Upanishad to other scriptures were written by those "Outsiders". Most of the gods and goddesses are also look more like someone from Afghanistan or Iran than someone from Bihar. For many hundred years, this evolved into what we call "Indian tradition".


You will observe similar things with Christianity as well. Since what we know as "Modern Christianity" is mostly influenced by Paul. Most of the NT verses were Paul's observation rather that what Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) said to his followers. If anyone is curious, there is an edition of Bible call "Red letter Bible" where commands from Jesus son of Mary (PBUH)
. You will discover how many outsiders gotten into the narrative. Also if you watch most movies on Jesus son of Mary (PBUH), you will see an European man than a Jew from Palestine. In reality, Jesus looked more like the average native Palestinian than a Nordic man from Sweden. But this is how it was influenced by local cultures. As per Bible Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) prayed on Saturdays but his "Followers" pray on Sundays!!


So most Christian think of Jesus as an European man.


Similarly Hindus religious figures also have a look that is NOT native Indian!! 



and don't see Kali as black.

>>>>>>>>> Very good question!

Yes I do. She is not exactly presented as "Showing lot of love" to people. She comes with Ma Kali wears a garland of skulls and a skirt of dismembered arms. She holds a sword and a freshly severed head dripping blood. NOT exactly a "Selling point" about goodness in Hinduism.

Again this is my OBSERVATION only as an "Outsider".

No matter how much word playing one does, you cannot escape the racist mentality in our sub-continent. Albeit Islam teaches us to be color blind but many Muslims are not. They are more influenced by local culture than religion. Even Arabs are not free from it either.

That is the reason I always speak about the Qur'an and last prophet Muhammad (PBUH), when we discuss about Islam.

Anyway, take it easy.

Shalom!




-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate

 
Mr. Rahman

You took course in a University on the subject of Aryans! Read
Koenraad Elst on the subject, he sure is not an 'ignorant Hindutva'
badi as you think. Fact remains that you read nothing of any
significance on anything, and understood even less. You see Durga as
white skinned lady, and don't see Kali as black. Can you connect
these ladies with Anahita?

Don't ever pretend the knowledge you don't have.








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[mukto-mona] Dr. Ziauddin on Skype Hacking episode [Bangla]

This piece is a 'Must Read' for all :

http://mukto-mona.com/bangla_blog/?p=32044

Avijit


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[mukto-mona] BNP-JAMAT"Two Brothers Born To The Same Mother", said Saidee in 2005 !!!!!!



Ideologies of BNP, Jamaat almost same, says Saidee


Jamaat-e-Islami lawmaker Delwar Hossain Saidee yesterday said the ideologies of BNP and Jamaat are very much similar as both the parties are dedicated to establishing the rule of Islam in the country.
"Jamaat and BNP are closely connected. Late president Major Ziaur Rahman used to believe in the Islamic rule and he had set up BNP to implement it. Jamaat too was established with the same ideology," said Saidee, addressing a rally at Malitola Fazlul Karim Community Centre in Old Dhaka.
Describing the BNP and Jamaat as 'two brothers born to the same mother', he said the two organisations have formed the four-party alliance to safeguard the Islamic forces and foster Islamic movement in the country.
Denying Jamaat's alleged links to banned militant group Jama'atul Mujahideen Bangladesh, Saidee said those who had carried out the August 17 countrywide blasts are enemies of Islam.
Blasting the main opposition party Awami League (AL) for blaming the grenade and bomb blasts on Jamaat, he said the AL and India are conspiring to split the BNP-Jamaat led ruling alliance.
"Awami League knows it well that they will not have any chance to come to power if the four-party alliance remains intact," said Saidee, speaking as the chief guest at the rally.
"No madrasas will be allowed to run if the Awami League-led 14-party alliance wins the next election," he said, calling on the country's alem and olamas [Islamic scholars] to work for the four-party alliance in the next election.
Saidee, also the chairman of the parliamentary standing committee on the religious affairs ministry, urged the government to incorporate the madrassa syllabus into academic courses of the universities.
Organised by Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, the rally was addressed among others by Jamaat leaders Prof Jainul Abedin, ABMA Khalek Majumdar, SM Rulhul Amin and Shahajahan Chowdhury.
 
 


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[mukto-mona] 1st Hundred Days Of BNP-JAMAT Anarchy !!!!!!



Dear all ,

Kindly open the link to know about the anarchy done by BNP-JAMAT coalition in the very first 100 days of their tenure in 2001 :

http://www.kibria.org/publications/period_of_anarchy.pdf


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[mukto-mona] From Mr Mohammed Hazan







From Mr Mohammed Hazan
Dear Sir/Madam.

My name is Mr Mohammed Hazan the manager of Auditing and Account in Department in (B.O.A) Bank of Africa Ouagadougou Burkina Faso. I Hope That you will not expose or betray this trust and confident that I am About to repose on you for the mutual benefit of our both families.

I need your urgent assistance in transferring the sum of ($25.5) million to your account within 11 or 15 banking days. This Money has been dormant for years in our Bank without claim. I want the Bank to release the money to you as the nearest person to our deceased
Customer (the owner of the account) died along with his supposed next Of kin in an air crash since July 2003.

I don't want the money to go into our Bank treasurer as an abandoned Fund. So this is the reason why I contacted you so that the bank can Release the money to you as the next of kin to the deceased customer.(Dr. George Brumley ) Please I would like you to keep This proposal as a top secret and delete it if you are not interested.

Here is the sharing ratio; you will get 50% as your share, while I get 50% for me. If you can help me, please contact me immediately with the required Information listed below:

1. Your full name:
2. Your contact cell phone number:
3. Your age:
4. Your sex:
5. Your occupations:
6. Your country and city:

Yours
Faithfully,
Mr Mohammed Hazan
Tel +22675820576


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Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate



Another crap! How do you get to that conclusion about historians being more interested in prophets? It is rather the herds, who are more interested in prophets for their miracle power?
-SD 
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Manab Dharma <manabdharma@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate

 
Deities are not at all worth of discussion. All mumbo jumbo. Idolatry. Hocus Bocus. Historical figures like prophets are the core interest for historians, anthropologists and archeologists. Well, deities have some values of course - some sociologists find fairy tales appealing. I also do since I got post-modern interpretations out of functionalism, conflictism and interactionaism, but only just.



From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate

 
I asked you to connect Durga/Kali with Anahita(If you ever heard her name).  Your are not a person who deserves my personal attack.  Like you, I don't have a faith,  let alone be blinded by it.  As I understand, Ram/Ravana epic is not even Indian in origin. "Starting from Upanishad to other scriptures were written by those Outsiders"  -  Really?  What an invention!  Most of the Vedas is said to have been written by Agastya, most Puranas by Vyasdeva, and Upanishads had been written over a long period of time, roughly over a thousand years starting from eighth century before the common era.  Agastya and Vyas were definitely dark skinned.  Contribution by the "invading Aryans" in Hindu literature is really negligible.  Most deities of Indian religions that go by the name of Hinduism are dark skinned.  I wish you had the eyes to see them.  Your observations are almost always superficial.  To find out why Christians pray on Sunday, read the ancient history of Rome.  Didn't your prophet also observe Saturday as the day of congregation till he changed his direction of prayer?

I don't mean to offend you, but you are one of those who don't comprehend enough to be a discussant of what I post here.


On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:36 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 
Member Das,

Not going answer your "Personal attacks" here. I think readers should judge me based on what I say here.


Just a clarification on my "Durga" comment. I am not calling her "A white skinned lady" but here we see a goddess who appeared "White" and the bad guy is of course is a "Dark skinned" Raban (AKA Ravana). I am NOT criticizing your faith, simply sharing an observation here.


Similarly if you look at most Hindi or Bangla movies from last 50 years, you will see the same TREND here. The "Good guy" is someone who does not look like an average Indian or Bengali but he is the hero!!


The point of this sharing is the native population have been "INVADED" many thousand years ago. Staring from Upanishad to other scriptures were written by those "Outsiders". Most of the gods and goddesses are also look more like someone from Afghanistan or Iran than someone from Bihar. For many hundred years, this evolved into what we call "Indian tradition".


You will observe similar things with Christianity as well. Since what we know as "Modern Christianity" is mostly influenced by Paul. Most of the NT verses were Paul's observation rather that what Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) said to his followers. If anyone is curious, there is an edition of Bible call "Red letter Bible" where commands from Jesus son of Mary (PBUH)
. You will discover how many outsiders gotten into the narrative. Also if you watch most movies on Jesus son of Mary (PBUH), you will see an European man than a Jew from Palestine. In reality, Jesus looked more like the average native Palestinian than a Nordic man from Sweden. But this is how it was influenced by local cultures. As per Bible Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) prayed on Saturdays but his "Followers" pray on Sundays!!


So most Christian think of Jesus as an European man.


Similarly Hindus religious figures also have a look that is NOT native Indian!! 



and don't see Kali as black.

>>>>>>>>> Very good question!

Yes I do. She is not exactly presented as "Showing lot of love" to people. She comes with Ma Kali wears a garland of skulls and a skirt of dismembered arms. She holds a sword and a freshly severed head dripping blood. NOT exactly a "Selling point" about goodness in Hinduism.

Again this is my OBSERVATION only as an "Outsider".

No matter how much word playing one does, you cannot escape the racist mentality in our sub-continent. Albeit Islam teaches us to be color blind but many Muslims are not. They are more influenced by local culture than religion. Even Arabs are not free from it either.

That is the reason I always speak about the Qur'an and last prophet Muhammad (PBUH), when we discuss about Islam.

Anyway, take it easy.

Shalom!




-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate

 
Mr. Rahman

You took course in a University on the subject of Aryans! Read
Koenraad Elst on the subject, he sure is not an 'ignorant Hindutva'
badi as you think. Fact remains that you read nothing of any
significance on anything, and understood even less. You see Durga as
white skinned lady, and don't see Kali as black. Can you connect
these ladies with Anahita?

Don't ever pretend the knowledge you don't have.







__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
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