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Friday, June 22, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?



1. I know what you mean: when you take care of the fundamental needs of common people and build an exploitation-free society, religion does not remain a dominant political force any more.
But can you give me even one example of a historical period when religion was not talked about (praised and critiqued as well) by great thinkers? Religion is such a powerful concept and institution (sometimes all consuming) that it cannot and should not be ignored. We have seen how India was divided on the basis of religion. And we are still suffering. We have also seen the rise of the fundamentalist Hindutwabadis. Look around, you will see a lot more.  
 
2. Why should we be in denial and assume that the threats from religious fundamentalists and fanatics will go away naturally?
Mukto-mona is a forum consisting of educated (I mean good degree holders) people. Many of the members are about to retire or already retired. Most of them probably live in comfort zones in all respects. This has provided them with almost unlimited leisure that they can afford to utilize to engage in "intellectual" exercises. Many of them are not ready at all to do so. But they do it as they have nothing else to do. They do it with confidence which comes from, for example, his Ph.D in civil engineering. Being inspired by Dr. Shoumyo Dasgupta, I had to write an article titled "Antorjaale kothokota: jaale bondee bibek o mukto chinta" for Ogrobeej that was edited by him a few years ago. I will never tell my less educated religious relatives and friends that I am an atheist. But Mukto-mona is a forum where I dare do this. But nobody can complain that I have ever shown any kind of profanity in any of my writings.
 
3. My understanding is that religion is man made and has been made to serve the interests of the selected groups of a society. In that it can be exploitative. Then why not to critique it if we can critique any other human innovations or thoughts?
 
4. I am also aware of the concern expressed by you and Dr. Farida Majid that discussions about religion involve the risk of further dividing the society on communal basis and also strengthening the hands of the fundamentalist and fanatic political forces.But we have a problem. The forum is visited by people of different kinds. Many come here with hidden agenda and those are reflected in their posts although they try to be fair and real free thinkers.
 
5. Finally, I will repeat what I have said before: a person with hidden agenda---communalist, political, or ideological--- has no moral rights to talk against some one else's religion.   
 

 
From: Soumitra Bose <soumitrabose@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
 
A country, her culture, the civilization can never become mature and can never gain respects from the world till it comes out the filthy and slimy cocoon of religious debates. It is very unfortunate when debate about religion is dumped throughout the world Bangladeshi intellectuals [ a tiny and yet vocal minority though] still cracks their head on it. It is disparaging! Act your age! please, please grow up and look at the problems of the people, their livelihood, their quotidian struggle against injustice, economic inequalities, imperialism and hegemonism. Please walk with the people who produce, who toil, who create wealth and stop peering beneath their pants. 

From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 3:14 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
 
             It is not easy to make sense with cave-dwellers, especially the kind that hangs upside down from the roof of the cave. The visionary power of these people are often known as "blind as a bat."  I don't expect Jiten Roy to know idiomatic English.  I only wish he was a little more honest.             "Where do you see "Islam-bashing" in my statement", charges Jiten Roy.  The question I should be asking: Where did he "see" that I saw Islam-bashing in his statement?  He did not see it. He is just blindly casting a stone in the dark. Or, just plain lying.                I charged mukto-mona for Islam bashing for years, pleading in the beginning (in the early 1992-93, when activities of Nirmul Committee were in full swing) that this kind of crude attacks on the religion of Islam is going to be counter-productive to our stand against the Jamaat.  It will only encourage Jamaat to equate themselves with Islam.  I got blasted by the Islam-bashers calling me all kinds of ugly names. No logic, no appeal to scientific thinking or citation of history of the humanities -- nothing worked to change their obstinate view.                 That was then. {People curious can look up my article "Talibanization of the Cyberspace  by the Crypto-Islamists." Quotation from this article is used in the biography of Beatles George Harrison, "And the Guitar Gently Weeps."}                  And this is now.  Due to his ignorance of the RSS/BJP anti-Muslim propaganda literature circulated at communal riot-instigating rallies in India, Jiten Roy does not realize that a lot of what he puts forth echoes that language. An example of what I mean is right here on this page -- in the lines he has written -- about Muslims consisting of "poor and backward population" and they being exploited by the fundamentalists, and somehow that is the cause of "faster growth of Muslim population of the world."                   Even a deaf, mute and 'blind as a bat' will have difficulty following the logic of poor backward Muslim population being converted to Islam by the fundamentalists and thereby causing Islam to be the fastest growing religion in the world.                  Curiously, there is no opinion or view on SECULARISM.  The reason is nether Q. Rahman nor Jiten Roy are secular despite their masks.  They are both communal to the core. The word "religion" has many meanings in many contexts.  Here in this page the word 'religion' connotes communalism.                                            Farida Majid
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:15:02 -0700Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?  

Where do you see "Islam-bashing" in my statement, which I made after Q. Rahman boasted that Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth?
 
In my last response, I have pointed out some of the reasons why Islam is growing faster than Christianity. One reason I gave was the Christian population growth deceleration due to various reasons, and then I said faster growing religion also brings faster growing problems. Let me explain why.
 
Faster growth in Islam is due to faster growth in Muslim population in the world. Unfortunately, most of the growth is happening in the poor and backward population. Islamists/fundamentalists are taking advantage of all these poor and desperate people. This is causing enormous problem everywhere else, including Islamic countries, like Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. In USA, highest rate of conversion to Islam is in the Prison. Q. Rahman is right when he said that it's not the religion - it's the people, who make troubles using religion. I concur with him completely - but, the fact that - those trouble makers are growing faster rate also with the faster growth of the religion. That was my point. In fact, you are also talking about the same problem. I do not expect blanket statement like "Islam Bashing" from you. If you do so, you will be no different from Mohiuddin Anwar, who went as far as saying that critics are "Enemy of Islam."
 
Jiten Roy--- On Wed, 6/20/12, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely?
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 10:19 AM

 
              Can we discuss religion freely?         As far as I am concerned, you and the whole bunch of mukto-mona guys have done absolutely nothing but discuss "religion" endlessly and fruitlessly. 97% of these so-called discussions for the last 10-12 years have been on Islam-bashing. The rest were pro-Islamic rehashes.  None of them led to any general enlightenment. No one seems to have progressed to any new level of thinking. Meanwhile, outside the mukto-mona 'religion-locked' thinking, the world has gone on and changed in various ways.             I, on the other hand, had been fighting for the State guarantee of fundamental rights of individual citizen's religious freedom.  A modern nation  founded on the principle of SECULARISM provides that guarantee.  In this context, secularism is a constitutional issue, not a religious issue. No matter how much Shah Abdul Hannan and Q. Rahman shout and scream, the meaning of 'secularism' is not open to their treacherous, fraudulent interpretation.  Secularism is an integral part of the Constitution of Bangladesh.  We should collectively resist all and sundry attempts to vandalize the Constitution of Bangladesh. The brave struggle of Muktijuddho continues until Constitutional Secularism of Bangladesh is mischief-free and blemish-ridden.

             No doubt we will be talking about it again. I will explain further if any one has a sincere question.

             Bye for now.

            
Farida Majid
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.comFrom: jnrsr53@yahoo.comDate: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:21:45 -0700Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Can we discuss religion freely? 
Now, I am so sorry that I made a boo-boo in my last hurried comment, as shown bellow:
 
"As you know - the fasted growing religion has been the fasted growing problem on earth also."
I wrote "fasted" instead of fastest. Thanks to Dr. Das and others who pointed out my mistake.
 
In response to my above statement, Mr. Q. Rahman said the following:

>>>>>>> Growth did not cause any problem. Ignorance and politics did. Don't think this comment was based on "Logic". Mostly on assumptions and perception. Specifically if you live in the US, it became "Kosher" to talk about Islam this way (Without any rational).
 
In his response, Mr. Q. Rahman may have revealed his inner self. He is saying that - one cannot say whatever he/she likes about Islam from other places, except USA. He is right; people are already gagged by fanatics everywhere else  to say anything against Islam. He appears to be unhappy about the USA, where people are not yet gagged. I used to think him as a special breed of religious people, as he often preaches free-speech.
 
Anyway, fanatic people (religious/ideological/political) may present themselves as innocent and harmless, on the surface, but inside they hide monsters. Once you hurt their feelings, they could be quite dangerous.  We need to be cautious about these people; most of them are not normal thinking people.
 
Jiten Roy
--- On Tue, 6/19/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 12:35 PM

 
1. The propaganda that Islam is in danger still works. It is one of the agenda of Jamaat-BNP alliance and their intellectuals to keep Islam safe. Remember Khaleda Zia's cautionary words uttered a few years ago that if AL came to power, one would hear "uludhwoni" in mosques.
>>>>>>>>>> In Bngladesh Khaleda Zia was largely ignored until massive failures of current administration came to surface. I think BNP is getting some popularity in last 12 months. Not because they have said or done anything special but people are frustrated by some activities of current admin. Some of it is normal but some failures are hand to ignore. The comment about ulu in masjid is WRONG. It is scare mongering and people ignored such "tactics". I am glad they did that. I abhor such leaders who play with religion to score political points. Khaleda was criticized for such comments and did not make any of it. Islamic as well as Jihadist movements still to a large extent gain momentum from selling this slogan.>>>>>>>> Not in Bangladesh. Leading imams played a great role in last 5-6 years openly criticizing violence in the name of Islam and most people accepted it. 

I googled a little bit. The cyber world is full of hateful articles, vacuous boast, and lies. I>>>>>>>> Well if you like to know little bit about authentic Islam, let me know. The political lies and hateful stuff is for ignorant people. As I tried to explain a fundamental issue on Islam and violence in my recent post.

One Christian group has termed what you are saying about growth of Islam as a myth. >>>>>>>>>> You can view government polls. Pew and gallup to get an accurate picture. Christian groups (Most of them) are more fanatic that any Muslim groups you know. ;-)Does growth in population mean any thing (except that increase the number of voters) if they will be on the earth not to be taken care of properly by the states and they will be kept in dark simply to act as the "gravitational pull" on the rest of the society when it should aspire to rise above hunger, illiteracy, superstition, fanaticism>>>>>>>> With due respect, I think you are over reacting a bit. I was replying to a comment that, Islam is in danger. I firmly think it is not. Some ignorant people try to rally people up saying such garbage. Anyone with some knowledge of history knows the strength of Islam is not in number but quality of people. If you want talk about number, let me remind you that, ONLY 17 men overcame the army of Laxman Sen of Bengal!! Those who knows a bit about scriptures knows, our times were foretold by prophet Muhammad (PBUH) saying we'll great in number but still suffer for lack of true faith. I am witnessing that and accept it. No need to panic over everything. My faith does not depend on conditions of others. It depends on me!! But I am nervous about the fact that religions are in a race>>>>>>> Religion is not an Olympic event. :-)Islam is growing fastest, it is a fact. But none of us should talk about it as some sort of sporting event. I think we left our teen years some decades ago.

I am nervous because this has the potential to make the world more divisive.>>>>>>>>> As long we are accepting of other faiths and calm about it. It does not make any difference. I have Hindu friends who depend on me more than some of their own family members and rely on my opinions. We accept each other as we are !!

I wish we all could keep religion confined to our spiritual life. Religion itself deserves more freedom and effort to internationalize it will bring more havoc for the world.>>>>>>>> Since some of my posts had some verses from the Qur'an, I have received some very "Offensive" remarks from this esteemed forum. Albeit I only used those verses as sources of my comments. That was my intention and most people read too much into it. As if by some magical power, I'll transform them into hajis!! :-DFirst I was shocked but later had to laugh at it. All those "Maulana" comments and "Communal" comments were over some verses of the Qur'an and they were very normal commentaries. I think as people we (ALL OF US) have to relax a bit more and be more accepting of others. I quoted verses from Veda as well and people were shocked!!  WHY??? I am very comfortable with my faith. I harbor nothing against other faith and my faith made me a better person. So my very innocent sharing made a lot of waves here. It says a lot about US. So as long we allow people to be themselves, we'll be cool. I have visited durga puja mandaps many times and learnt stories behind the events. It did not diminish my faith but helped me to become a more understanding person. One way to achieve this is to decouple religion from politics.
>>>>>>>>> I was reading a book by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad. He mentioned his reaction when he heard the term "Pakistan". He said it was UN-Islamic. He provided verses from the Qur'an (He was a great scholar of Islam and mother tongue was Arabic) showing Allah (SWT) made the whole world ready for prayer or "Pure". Calling a certain landscape "Pure land" (Thus implying rest is unpure) is closer to Hindu philosophy than what Islam teaches us. He tried his level best to stop "Partition" but failed because of fanatics from both sides stopped him. Had we know what Islam actually says, people would have looked up to us as "Peace makers" not scared hearing some verses of the Qur'an. As I said many times, Muslims are to blame for it mostly. As you know - the fasted growing religion has been the fasted growing problem on earth also.>>>>>>> Growth did not cause any problem. Ignorance and politics did. Don't think this comment was based on "Logic". Mostly on assumptions and perception. Specifically if you live in the US, it became "Kosher" to talk about Islam this way (Without any rational). I'll rest now.....Shalom!-----Original Message-----From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:35 amSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
 

Islam may be the fasted growing religion because of some obvious reasons, such as - Christians are not getting married lately or getting married late in their lives and having less number of children compared to Muslims. Also, you cannot become Christian by birth; you need to be baptized into it.
Subimal Chakraborty is right – it's not the quantity, it's the quality that matters in the end.  As you know - the fasted growing religion has been the fasted growing problem on earth also.
 
Jiten Roy
--- On Sun, 6/17/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, June 17, 2012, 8:31 PM

 
1. The propaganda that Islam is in danger still works. It is one of the agenda of Jamaat-BNP alliance and their intellectuals to keep Islam safe. Remember Khaleda Zia's cautionary words uttered a few years ago that if AL came to power, one would hear "uludhwoni" in mosques. Islamic as well as Jihadist movements still to a large extent gain momentum from selling this slogan. Even a soft version of this propaganda is making many peaceful and peace-loving Muslims overconscious as Muslims and inspiring them to adop orthodox life style in personal life. This is happening to other religious groups to various extents.    
2. After reading your post, I googled a little bit. The cyber world is full of hateful articles, vacuous boast, and lies. It is misleading as well as interesting. By reading this it is hard to draw a conclusion on actually what is actually going on in the growth of religions. One Christian group has termed what you are saying about growth of Islam as a myth.
3. Growth of a religion may come from various sources: immigration, conversion---forced as well as deliberate, birth rate, etc. As some one born into a Hindu family, I will subconsciously if not consciously feel good to know that Hindu population is growing in the whole world. Does growth in population mean any thing (except that increase the number of voters) if they will be on the earth not to be taken care of properly by the states and they will be kept in dark simply to act as the "gravitational pull" on the rest of the society when it should aspire to rise above hunger, illiteracy, superstition, fanaticism, and so on? I remember a concluding line from one of Sarat Chatterjee's short stories: the giant dinosaur has been extinct, but the cockroach is still living. But what kind of living is this! Sarat here has pointed to the boast about Sanatan Hindu Dharma that has been persecuting it's own people and is still surviving. 
4. I am not sure if Islam or any other religion is in danger or not. But I am nervous about the fact that religions are in a race. I am nervous because this has the potential to make the world more divisive. I wish we all could keep religion confined to our spiritual life. Religion itself deserves more freedom and effort to internationalize it will bring more havoc for the world. Programs of advancement, prosperity, and liberation should be premised on poverty, illiteracy, exploitation, inequality, persecution, oppression, etc. among the humans in general. One way to achieve this is to decouple religion from politics.
 
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
 

I am not sure what cave you have been living for past twenty years. With global jihad on march, country boundaries have become non relevant. If zealots can find any religious issue, people will cross the border and fight without even knowing what they are really fighting for. Only mantra they need is that "Islam is in danger". That is the reality. This is not in 70's, my friend.
>>>>>>>>>> You probably forgot that, I AM a Muslim. I do mix with load of Muslims and non-Muslims. The "Islam is in danger" used to work during Pakistan era, they don't anymore.
The fact is Islam is NOT in danger.
Some Muslims occasionally are. As we are witnessing with the Rohingas and Kashmiries in our region. As far Islam is concern, it is the fastest growing faith in the world and growing fastest in the western world. Where no one can be forced and people are FREE to make up their minds about religion. Lastly, it is entirely possible I have some disagreement with you or other members. Why that "Disagreement" necessitates me to relocate in a CAVE??? If you are not a Muslim or do not have a university degree in Islam, try not to play "Islam expert" with me. It ain't Fox news. If you have an opinion, it would be helpful if you chose to share sources of your information. That would make your "Opinions" more credible. Not interested in petty personal attacks. Welcome mature discussion based on logic, knowledge and tolerance of each other. Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Dev Saha <devsaha5@yahoo.com> To: qar <qrahman@netscape.net> Cc: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
 
"As far as Indians helping Tamils in Sri Lanka was claimed by people of Sri Lanka."

What would you expect? -Srilankans claiming Bangladeshis helping Tamils?

"Occasionally I have seen few Pakistanis and Indians who really LIKE Bengalis but NEVER ahead of their own people!!"

I am not sure what cave you have been living for past twenty years. With global jihad on march, country boundaries have become non relevant. If zealots can find any religious issue, people will cross the border and fight without even knowing what they are really fighting for. Only mantra they need is that "Islam is in danger". That is the reality. This is not in 70's, my friend.

-Dev



--- On Sun, 6/17/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
To: devsaha5@yahoo.com
Date: Sunday, June 17, 2012, 9:04 AM

You must be joking! Ask BNP and Jamat cadres. The love is not lost yet.
>>>>>>>>> I have known many Indians and Pakistanis in my life. However I cannot remember meeting anyone even proposing putting interest of Bangladesh ahead of their own respective countries. It makes me VERY sad when confront people from my own country who regularly put (OR propose to put) Indian or Pakistani interest ahead of ours. They also become advocate for these nations. Occasionally I have seen few Pakistanis and Indians who really LIKE Bengalis but NEVER ahead of their own people!! I do not know why we have so many Pakistani rajakars and Indian Rajakars among us? Our politicians compete to show their eagerness to serve their masters and rarely acknowledge the very people who voted them to power. I harbor no bad feelings for most Pakistanis or Indians and am treated fairly by both people most of the time. It seems like a lot of us have a lot of hate for a lot of people in their hearts. I do not think it is healthy... As far as Indians helping Tamils in Sri Lanka was claimed by people of Sri Lanka. If you know about Indian clandestine operational issues, I stand corrected. Generally such "Covert" operations are never publicly acknowledged by the state. But I feel since the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi congress did not encourage such "Help" for Tamil rebels. Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Dev Saha <devsaha5@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Cc: qrahman <qrahman@netscape.net> Sent: Sun, Jun 17, 2012 6:26 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
"For Bangladeshis (Assuming you are form BD) both Pakistan and India are FOREIGN countries."
You must be joking! Ask BNP and Jamat cadres. The love is not lost yet.
By the way, you are wrong about Indian support for Srilankan's Tamils. India did not like Prabhkaran at all for political reasons and hence it did not support the Tamil fight. If India wanted an autonomous Tamil land, it could have created one long time ago as it did with Bangladesh. Pakistan would have been no match again. India does not want an independent Tamil enclave at all!
-Dev




--- On Sat, 6/16/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, June 16, 2012, 3:28 PM

 
If these people belong to a different religion, our Bangladeshi border guards would have shot them on the first sight.
>>>>>>>> IF that ever happened, it would still be WRONG!! I am not sure why so called "Secular" people are so willing to look everything via religious point of view? Had Rohingas were Christians, we still had a MORAL obligation NOT to send them to death camps.


both Bangladeshis and Pakistanis were having orgasms because they were not Muslims. >>>>>>>> Maybe you are hanging out with perverts. Need to look for new people in your lives. Don't think the idea of innocent people being murdered can cause "Orgasm" in any "Ordinary" people.


Pakistanis were rather aiding Srilankans with arms to wipe out the Tamil population.
>>>>>>> Pakistanis are hell bent to go against Indians. Since Indian clandestine groups were actively supporting Tamil rebels, Pakistan chose to work with the government. Giving such "Half baked" pictures may mislead people. Unless misleading is your intention, kindly be fair to both India and Pakistan. For Bangladeshis (Assuming you are form BD) both Pakistan and India are FOREIGN countries. So, why this double standard from our part? >>>>>>>>>>>>> These double standards are NOT supported by religion (Source: Al Qur'an 5:8). However the west was openly biased against north Sudan (Muslim north). Again you are giving "Half" the information here.

Why religious zealots can still burn minority houses in Shatkira and Nandigram on false blasphemy issues? >>>>>>> Ask our home ministry about it. BTW, both Muslim and Hindu houses were targeted. It was wrong to succumb to "Mob justice" but the wrath was not exclusively against one community. Muslims did protest quiet forcefully (We also discussed it here) against such abuse of religion.

How would we like to be treated fairly when we do not treat other people fairly? >>>>>>>>  My friend, you can take the first step and start treating religious people fairly. So far most of your posts are VERY offensive against Islam and Muslims.


The people, who  are crying for justice for Rohingas have no problem seeing our brothers and sisters of Chittagong Hill tracts being constantly harassed? >>>>>>>>>>> NOT true. The latest "Attack" on ethnic minorities came from our "Secular" government when they denied the "Indigenous" status of tribal people of hill tracts. No religious bodies said anything like that.
How can we move forward when we harbor such demon in our hearts? >>>>>> Good point. It is easiest to remove own demon first before you go after other hearts.

These people need to get along with their Burmese counterparts and integrate into that society rather than extend the Jamati hegemony on to the Burmese people. I am sure Burma is not a totally homogeneous country and other minorities should be able to do fine if they chose to do so. >>>>>>>>>> I have a feeling you do NOT know the history of the region that well. Please click here to read an article about history of "Arakan". Then you would not blame the victims here. FYI, the military regime of Myanmar also have conflict with other ethnic minorities who are not Muslims. Some of them took shelter in Thailand, Malaysia etc. Some say, it was fomented to make the environment more difficult for Ms. Kyi and to halt Myanmar's transition to democracy. Shalom! -----Original Message----- From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Cc: qrahman <qrahman@netscape.net>; jnrsr53 <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>; Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>; bachchuhaq <bachchuhaq@yahoo.com>; bangladesh-progressives <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>; bishawdipta <bishawdipta@yahoo.com> Sent: Sat, Jun 16, 2012 7:13 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
 
We know who are the true razakars of our time but with the political patronage, they have become far holier than our real fighters of 71. They were rehabilitated shamelessly because they went for BNP/Jamat camp for safety and refuge. As long as these people run the show, Bangladesh would not be able to go over the hump. If religious sentiment is to rule our life, it will be like one step forward leading to two steps backward. Whether Indians are secular or not, their constitution is secular and that would be a deciding factor for them and their future. So far, it has served them very well despite some hiccups. Even US is not a secular country but its constitution is secular and that is the model we should follow. If people want to put Quaran on the top of our constitution, we are doomed stay behind miles away from the other developing countries. God  never actively supported any country that were religious and went by the book.
My two cents for Rohinga refugees: The problem is a political and religious nature. If these people belong to a different religion, our Bangladeshi border guards would have shot them on the first sight. Few years back, when Srilankan army was carrying out genocide on the Tamils, both Bangladeshis and Pakistanis were having orgasms because they were not Muslims. Pakistanis were rather aiding Srilankans with arms to wipe out the Tamil population. When North Sudanese were tormenting Southerners, no single condemnation came from any Arab country, let alone from OICSo, why this double standard from our part? Why religious zealots can still burn minority houses in Shatkira and Nandigram on false blasphemy issues? How would we like to be treated fairly when we do not treat other people fairly? The people, who  are crying for justice for Rohingas have no problem seeing our brothers and sisters of Chittagong Hill tracts being constantly harassed? How can we move forward when we harbor such demon in our hearts?
I would not justify a stepmother like attitude towards the Rohingas. These people need to get along with their Burmese counterparts and integrate into that society rather than extend the Jamati hegemony on to the Burmese people. I am sure Burma is not a totally homogeneous country and other minorities should be able to do fine if they chose to do so. It is high time for Rohingas to get that message. Nobody would go for any safe heaven domain within Burma. That would open the Pandora's box! In such case, other minorities would demand exactly the same in some other Muslim countries as well. I do not think Muslim countries got that kind of stomach to deal with their own little secrets.
With respect and regards,
-SD
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
 
I do not think it would have been the case. Even if "Peace" could have been guaranteed by simply banning religious leaning organizations (Note I am talking about all organizations not just political parties), we would have done so.

India is a "secular" democracy but it's people (Of all faiths) are not secular. Neither they want to be "Secular". People of Bangladesh are no different than people of India.

We never had a sincere effort to list rajakars. As you said some Muktijoddas never received recognitions but corrupt people received certificate as freedom fighters. Then you have so called 16th division fighters (Those who joined the movement at the very end of our struggle). So there are many hypocrites among all groups of people. I was hoping at least the leaders among rajakars and those who helped raping our sisters should have been punished. Let us see how this goes...

I do not blame BAL exclusively but common people are probably not demanding it strongly.

Right now, I am really disturbed about how our neighbors Rohingas are being persecuted in their own land. As if I was watching pictures from 1971. My God!!

The armed personnel lining up people and burning houses--- the whole deal. Sadly, we decided to push them to death and persecution as per government policy. At least we could become their "Advocate" to the rest of the world. We can organize regional meetings on this issue. It is not only a religious cause, it is a moral cause!!

This will define who we are as people. Are we only satisfied with pointing fingers at Indians, Pakistanis, Saudis, Americans, Israelis, Iraqis etc or we are going to do our best to support innocent civilians from being persecuted. Why we cannot force UN to get a "safe zone" inside Myanman?

I would request all advocates of human rights in this forum to do his/her level best to highlight these criminals in world stage. Make people aware of this persecution. Call the ambassador of Myanmar in the USA, UK and other countries and ask them to stop the persecution. If there is a problem, it can be solved via Bangladesh or UN. Why helpless innocent civilians have to pay the price over and over. This is not the first time these people were targeted. They have been targeted for ethnic cleansing many times.

This is the right time to stand up for them. If we do not our little bit, no one will come to our aid IF we ever need a helping hand in future.......

Shalom! 
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:53 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
 
Bangladesh could have prospered unabated and become a peaceful country, like Nepal or Bali, if these simple steps were implemented right after the independence – 1) band politics with religion, 2) build a wall of shame for Razakars, and 3) deliver unprecedented punishment for corruption.  
Now, Razakars have become 'Deshbondhu' and Muktijodhas have become 'Collaborators.' The blame goes to Awami League leadership. I have seen myself - they were confused about their secular identity, and could not support secularism whole-heartedly. Rest is history.
Jiten Roy --- On Wed, 6/13/12, Muhammad Ali <man1k195709@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Muhammad Ali <man1k195709@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
To:
Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2012, 4:51 PM

 
Bangladesh better than India and Pakistan !!
ভারত-পাকিস্তানের চেয়ে শান্তিপূর্ণ বাংলাদেশ কালের কণ্ঠ ডেস্ক ভারত ও পাকিস্তানের চেয়ে বেশি শান্তিপূর্ণ দেশের মর্যাদা পেয়েছে বাংলাদেশ। সামগ্রিক অবস্থান গতবারের থেকে কয়েক ধাপ পেছালেও দক্ষিণ এশিয়ার মধ্যে বাংলাদেশের অবস্থান তৃতীয়। দক্ষিণ এশিয়ার দেশগুলোর মধ্যে প্রথম ও দ্বিতীয় অবস্থানে রয়েছে যথাক্রমে ভুটান ও নেপাল। গত মঙ্গলবার অস্ট্রেলিয়া ও যুক্তরাষ্ট্রভিত্তিক প্রতিষ্ঠান ইনস্টিটিউট ফর ইকোনমিক অ্যান্ড পিস (আইইপি) প্রকাশিত 'গ্লোবাল পিস ইনডেক্স (জিপিআই)-২০১২' শীর্ষক বার্ষিক গবেষণা প্রতিবেদনে এ কথা বলা হয়েছে।
বিশ্বের ১৫৮টি দেশের অভ্যন্তরীণ ও আন্তর্জাতিক সংঘাত, সামাজিক নিরাপত্তা, সন্ত্রাসী তৎপরতা, রাজনৈতিক, অর্থনৈতিক এবং সাংস্কৃতিক কর্মকাণ্ডসহ ২৩টি বিষয়ের ভিত্তিতে এ গবেষণা কার্যক্রম পরিচালনা করা হয়। গবেষণা প্রতিবেদনে বলা হয়েছে, ক্ষুধা, সন্ত্রাস, কূটনৈতিক উত্তেজনা, সীমানা বিরোধ, যুদ্ধ, সহিংসতা সর্বোপরি অর্থনৈতিক মন্দা সত্ত্বেও পৃথিবী আগের চেয়ে শান্তিপূর্ণ হয়েছে। আর এবারের বার্ষিক সূচক বিশ্লেষণ করে দেখা যায়, ২০০৯ সালের তুলনায় বিশ্ব এখন অনেক বেশি শান্তিপূর্ণ।
২০১১ সাল থেকে এ বছরের চলতি সময় পর্যন্ত দক্ষিণ এশিয়ার শান্তিপূর্ণ দেশ হিসেবে ভারত ও পাকিস্তানকে পেছনে ফেলেছে বাংলাদেশ, নেপাল ও ভুটান। শান্তি সূচকে বাংলাদেশের অবস্থান ৯১তম আর ভারত ও পকিস্তানের অবস্থান যথাক্রমে ১৪২ ও ১৪৯তম। অন্যদিকে ভুটান ও নেপালের অবস্থান যথাক্রমে ১৯ ও ৮০তম। তবে গত বছরের তুলনায় বাংলাদেশের অবস্থানের কয়েক ধাপ অবনতি হয়েছে। গত ২০১০-১১ সালে এই সূচকে বাংলাদেশের অবস্থান ছিল ৮৩তম। এদিকে দক্ষিণ এশিয়ার সবচেয়ে অশান্তিপূর্ণ দেশ হিসেবে তালিকার একেবারে তলানিতে ঠেকেছে আফগানিস্তানের নাম। তাদের অবস্থান ১৫৭তম।
গতবারের মতো এবারও বিশ্বের সবচেয়ে শান্তিপূর্ণ দেশের শীর্ষ অবস্থানটি ধরে রেখেছে আইসল্যান্ড। এর পরেই আছে যথাক্রমে ডেনমার্ক ও নিউজিল্যান্ড। এবারের তালিকায় সবচেয়ে উন্নতি করা দেশগুলোর মধ্যে আছে শ্রীলঙ্কা, জিম্বাবুয়ে, ভুটান, গায়ানা এবং ফিলিপাইন।
বিশ্বের সবচেয়ে অশান্তির দেশ হিসেবে তালিকার সর্বশেষ অর্থাৎ ১৫৮তম অবস্থানটি দখল করেছে আফ্রিকার দেশ সোমালিয়া। এ ছাড়া তালিকার সবচেয়ে নিচের অন্য পাঁচটি দেশ যথাক্রমে আফগানিস্তান, সুদান, ইরাক, কঙ্গো ও রাশিয়া। অন্যদিকে অশান্তিপূর্ণ দেশ হিসেবে যাদের দুর্নাম হয়েছে তাদের শীর্ষে আছে সিরিয়া, মিসর, তিউনিসিয়া, ওমান ও মালাবি। ১৫৮টি দেশের মধ্যে গতবারের চেয়ে এবার সূচকে সবচেয়ে বেশি পতন হয়েছে সিরিয়ার। সাম্প্রতিক সহিংসতার কারণে ৩০ ধাপ পিছিয়ে তালিকায় দেশটির অবস্থান ১৪৭তম। এবারের তালিকায় যুক্তরাষ্ট্র ও যুক্তরাজ্যের অবস্থানও কিছুটা পিছিয়েছে। গতবারের চেয়ে ছয় ধাপ পিছিয়ে যুক্তরাষ্ট্রের অবস্থান ৮৮তম। আর অর্থনৈতিক সংকটে থাকা যুক্তরাজ্যের অবস্থান তিন ধাপ পিছিয়ে হয়েছে ২৯তম।
ইনস্টিটিউট ফর ইকোনমিক অ্যান্ড পিসের (আইইপি) কর্মকর্তা স্টিভ কাইলি বলেন, এশিয়া-প্রশান্ত মহাসাগরীয় অঞ্চলে গত বছরের তুলনায় শান্তি বেড়েছে। আইইপির মতে, মধ্যপ্রাচ্যের দেশগুলোর মধ্যেই এখন সবচেয়ে বেশি অশান্তির আগুন জ্বলছে। সাম্প্রতিক সময়ের সহিংসতা ও অস্থিরতার কারণে দেশগুলো সন্তোষজনকভাবে শান্তিপূর্ণ থাকতে পারেনি। সূত্র : গার্ডিয়ান ও টাইমস অব ইন্ডিয়া অনলাইন।


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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
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http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

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