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Tuesday, January 27, 2015

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RE: An article in the Daily Star/ Terrorism and Islam

No need to revisit those subjects, which have been discussed many times before.

Sorry, I did not know that - you do not like to be a liberal.

From: "Subimal Chakrabarty [mukto-mona]" <>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RE: An article in the Daily Star/ Terrorism and Islam

Thanks a lot Dr. Roy for certifying that I am a liberal of the highest degree. Are you less liberal? I am sure both of us defend the rights of a cartoonist to express his ideas and vision through arts. I think both of us defend Taslima Nasrin. But I am not sure if we have same opinion on Fida Moqbul Hussein who painted the controversial goddess Saraswati's nude. FMH had to go for self exile. I don't know your view on Sunil Ganguly's remark that during his young life the very sight of the idol of Saraswati aroused sex in him. Do you remember the controversy created about a decade ago over a book written by an American professor of a renowned university? The book was about Indian mythological art works and it had a weird looking Ganesh picture on the front cover. Hindutvabadis made a big deal out of it. Later on it was discovered that the picture was taken from a temple or from a cave. 

I asked few questions.  What is desirable: Melting pot or salad bowl? A single culture or peaceful coexistence of many cultures? Explosive diversity or unity in the diversity? These are the questions asked by American thinkers. 

Let me add a few more questions. The questions are mostly symbolic. Should we stop eating Hilsha with mustard or switch to sandwiches? Should Hindu temples stop running Bengali schools? Is it inappropriate that one Indian origin woman goes to teach Sanskrit in a renowned university wearing Saree?
I can add more. But let e stop now. I will be waiting for your response. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 25, 2015, at 2:27 PM, Jiten Roy [mukto-mona] <> wrote:

I don't think so, Dr. Rahman; you are not in the same wavelength with Mr. Chakraborty, who is as liberal as it gets.
Actually, what you said in your previous post about Islamic sensitivity and Western liberalism are as conservative as it gets. Incidentally, it's my wavelength, be that a good or bad news to you.
Jiten Roy 

From: "ANISUR RAHMAN [mukto-mona]" <>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RE: An article in the Daily Star/ Terrorism and Islam

It seems, Dr Chakrabarty, that we speak on the same wavelength.

- AR

From: "Subimal Chakrabarty [mukto-mona]" <>
Sent: Friday, 23 January 2015, 15:30
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RE: An article in the Daily Star/ Terrorism and Islam

Dr. Rahman, my response was to Dr. Roy's message. I believe a religion is essentially defined by the scriptures although the real faces of a religion depends on both the time and space coordinates. 
You have raised a very good question. Multiculturalism or simply one culture? Melting pot or salad bowl? Assimilation or integration? I will revert to it as when I will have opportunity. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 20, 2015, at 8:42 AM, ANISUR RAHMAN [mukto-mona] <> wrote:

We may argue interminably whether freedom of speech / human rights / religious freedom etc are relative or absolute. To my mind, these are well defined by the geographical boundary of a country in question. What is freedom of expression in France or in Britain is definitely not the same as in Iran or Saudi Arabia. 

The problem arises when people with the mindset of another country, say Saudi Arabian Wahhabism, try to impose their values in another country, say in France or Britain. Should that be allowed? I would say, definitely not. If someone does not like country's code of conduct, he may leave the country and go to the country where his values are upheld. But to try to impose his values, his ethics by force to the whole of the nation is quite unacceptable. 

The West had been liberal for far too long and Muslims (as well as others) had been taking advantage of it. In the whole of Middle East, there is effectively no human rights and the migrant workers are denied even the rudimentary form of human decency. But those Arabs who viciously deny human rights to the migrant workers would happily demand all forms of human rights in the Western world for themselves. In Saudi Arabia, there is not a single church and even Christmas gathering is banned. But Saudi Arabia had financed thousands of mosques to be built in Europe. This is criminal deception to the extreme. 

- AR

From: "Subimal Chakrabarty [mukto-mona]" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 20 January 2015, 5:27
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: {PFC-Friends} RE: An article in the Daily Star/ Terrorism and Islam

A religion is essentially defined by its scriptures. But it is best known by how it is practiced. The medieval Christianity has a different face than the modern Christianity. Church persecuted Galileo. The same church admitted its past wrong doing. Islam practiced in one geopolitical environment (ISIS for example) is quite different from Islam practiced in Bangladesh. The madness shown during crusade and dark period in Europe not comparable with what we see now in the modern world in general. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 19, 2015, at 7:07 PM, Jiten Roy [mukto-mona] <> wrote:

A religion is defined by its products, not by words or fancy phrases. Islam will be known by its products also.

If a religion can be praised for good deeds of its followers, it can be blamed for the bad deeds of its followers also.

Jiten Roy

It is understandable why Mr. Zamir would defend Islam with the quote from Ibn Qayyim al Jawziyya:  "Islam is a mercy. If you see it's opposite, cruelty, then know that is not Islam. Islam is wisdom. If you see it going to foolishness and stupidity, then know that is not Islam. Islam is justice. If you see it going to oppression, then know that is not Islam." These words have become totally meaningless to the people, who have become the receiving ends of the Islamic terror and assaults. Can anybody find any truth in this quote in any Muslim dominated country? Bringing Robespierre and KKK in the discussion is basically comparing apple with oranges. While Robespierre/KKK terror was local, Islamic terror has become a global phenomenon. If deranged minds are not following the Islamic preachings, then there must be problem in some where in the religion? Why not address that before it is too late. What I see so far is that a great number of Muslims rather justifying these terror acts. Have they become non-Muslims too? Is that a good excuse?


On Sunday, January 18, 2015 1:21 PM, "'skmirza.mirza' [mukto-mona]" <> wrote:

Many thanks to both Mr. Asghar and Mr. Anisur Rahman for their pertinent questions asked which need to be answered by Mr. Zamir. Also, Mr. Zamir got plenty of questions from me to answer. Let us wait with our utmost eagerness for his answers to our all questions. Thanks to all for reading our discourse about peaceful Islam!


On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:12 PM, ANISUR RAHMAN <> wrote:
Reading Mahfuzur Rahman's (MR) and Syed K Mirza's (SKM) rebuttal to Zahid Zamir's (ZZ) 'opinion' in the Daily Star that Islam is a religion of peace is quite an eye-opener. I have nothing more to add to what MR and SKM had already said in this thread of emails, except putting forward some pertinent questions for ZZ to answer . 

The first question that I would ask ZZ and the ilk is this: why is it that all the vicious, barbaric acts of terrorism are being committed by Muslims only (in the name of religion)? Other religions do not resort to anything like such barbarity. Admittedly, all Muslims (1500 million) are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims. The terrorist Muslims are goaded into barbaric actions by the religion (Islam) to be good Muslims and the religion promises rich rewards in their after-lives. So, if dim-witted illiterate (or even brain-washed literate) people take such exhortations to heart and carry them out, is it not the fault of the religion? Where is peace if the religion dictates 'kill and be killed' in the name of religion? 

Mr. ZZ, have some decency and common sense to bring out in your write-up the root cause that drives Islamists to such extremes as to kill other human beings to please the all-powerful, all-loving Allah! But for such religious exhortations, these people may not be vicious animals as they are now.

- AR  

Dear Mr. Zamir,

While I was kind of locked-up with my TV set watching every details of our Islamic jihadis' Monkey dances in Europe, your esteem article (which is rebutted by Mahfuzur Rahman) posted in the Daily Star having most usual Islamic Taqqiyya has caught my attention to this thread one more time. Your article in Daily star perhaps was well received by those super ignorant Bangladeshi Muslims and also all those Taqqiyaa (islamic deception infested) loving Muslims in general. Dr. Mahfuzur Rahman has made quite good rebuttal by some valid points and I thank him for his good job.  But, I can see Mr. Zamir needs more truth about the so called peaceful Islam. In short, Mr. Zamir has told some utter lies and distortions and his write-up can be taken as a Hog-wash only, at best. Let me bring some key points for Mr. Zamir to answer to the readers here:

Mr. Zamir said: "Some deviated individuals and groups have adopted the method of destruction just to achieve political motives by using the name of the great religion of Islam, thereby blackening Islam in the eyes of many people. They might have Muslim identity, but this dreadful act cannot be labeled as Islamic terrorism just as it cannot be called Jewish terrorism if the perpetrators are Jewish or Christian terrorism if the perpetrators are Christian. That is because murdering innocent people in the name of religion is absolutely unacceptable. Religion preaches love, peace and mercy while terrorism is cruel and merciless, and brings bloodshed as well as misery.  "

My rseponse: Those Islamic terrorists are never any deviate muslims at all; they are highly devout and Koranic muslims. You are totally wrong and doing only Islamic taqqiyya to delude all westerners as well as ignorant Muslims. Truth is: Koran and Sunnah are the complete and Primary Mannual of Islamic terrorism, period. Please peruse my article attached

Mr. Zamir said: "In Islam, life is considered to be very sacred. The first and the foremost basic right of a human being is the right to live. It has been stated in the Holy Qur'an (Ch5, V.32) that if someone kills an innocent person, it would be as if he had killed the whole of mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind. "

My response: Again you are doing Taqqiyya by mis-quoting verses here. The verse (5:32) is purely a deceptive verse used by most hypocrites of Islam like you  to fool the Westerners. This verse was meant to describe historical aspects of Israelites and is nothing to do with the Muslims. Nor does this verse do any abrogation of the hundreds of killing verses came afterwards (while in Medina) to incite random killings (Jihad) of any un-believers by Allah's soldiers called Muslims. Here the verse in full:  Quran-5:32- On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
The above verse is purely a deceptive verse used by most hypocrites of Islam to fool the Westerners. This verse was meant to describe historical aspects of Israelites and is nothing to do with the Muslims. Nor does this verse do any abrogation of the hundreds of killing verses came afterwards (while in Medina) to incite random killings (Jihad) of any un-believers by Allah's soldiers called Muslims.

Mr. Zamir said: "Terrorism in the name of Islam is not only unislamic and unholy, it is also foolish and unwise. It is foolish because those people who are committing terrorism in the name of religion to draw strength for their political purposes have turned out to be counterproductive. Every time some so-called Muslim individuals or groups commit terrorism, they not only fail to achieve any political gain but also put the lives of millions of innocent Muslims in danger and tarnish the very good image of the great religion of Islam.'
My response: Much before 9/11 and right after 9/11 about 30,000 (thirty thousands) cases of terrorism happened killing and maiming tens of thousands of innocent humans around the globe. And almost 100% were done by the Muslims who were devout muslims. 100% terrorsists are either Madrassha stuedents, Mullah , Mufti, Maolana, Imams or someway connected with Mosques, Madrasshas and islamic ceneters. Never ever they were from any other religion nor they were any atheist, homosexuals or mad man either. They were all deboutely Quranic muslims. What is your answer Mr. Zamir?

Mr. Zamir said: the Qur'an never condones killing of innocent people. Terrorising defenseless civilians, and the bombing and maiming of innocent men, women, and children are all detestable acts according to Islam." 

My response: Oh, really? Quran: 9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran. Does this verse sounds lovable to you?

Quran-4:74- Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory (i.e. killed or be killed) - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
Quran-4:95- Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons (sacrifice both life and wealth) than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.
Quran-3:169-: Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; (Here Allah is saying that those jihadi who dies [commit suicide] is not dead but he will be living with Allah).
Now, I do not believe that anybody can have slightest doubt that the above clear invitations (from Allah) for the ardent fanatical believers can very easily convince the blind pukka (pure) Muslims to become a time-bomb (suicidal) in order to kill infidels/kaffirs-for the cause of Allah! The above verses (9:111; 3:169; 4:74; 4:95) are clearly ordering devout Muslims "to kill and be killed"; that is, Allah is teaching Muslims to sacrifice their own lives (to commit suicide) in His cause (Allah's cause) in order to kill infidels (enemy of Allah). This single verse (9:111) very precisely justifies suicide bombing-the most lethal, most terrifying, most inhuman and most successful weapon majority Islamic terrorists are using today to kill Allah's enemies. It is the perfect example (without any ambiguity) of suicidal method Allah has prescribed for devout Muslims. In the verse above (9:111) Islamic Allah clearly saying that: He (Allah) purchased life and property of believers in exchange of lustful and unimaginable lucrative heavenly pleasures for those who will die (commit suicide) for the cause (killing kaffirs) of Allah. After this, Muslims (ardent followers of the Quran) do not need any more killing instructions for their motivation to kill kaffirs/infidels. For good reason we can sum up that the Islamic God (Allah) is the most dangerous deity having unlimited vengeful, cruel, intolerant, intimidating and war-loving blood thirsty divine entity.
But, Holy Koran has hundreds of more killing verses: Readers please read (in my attached article) some of these lovable Koranic verses: 8:39,9:29, 3:85, 9:39, 9:73, 8:65, 8:66, 4:78, 9:5, 9:28,8:67, 8:17, 9:23, 2:191, 2:193, 5:33, 4:89, and hundreds of more and much more Sahih hadiths where Allah ask Muslims simply to slaughter all non-muslims as well as bad muslims too! Are you color blind Mr. Zamir? Please open your own Koran and read it in details only to find Allahs love affairs with all non-muslim kaffirs and infidels!!!!   I urge you to read my articles (attached) and learn well why devout Muslims all over the world are busy killings and beheading all non-muslims. And people like yourself--making Taqqiyya only to help those jihadists to deceive all non-muslims. Whole Koran is loaded with hatreds and asking devout muslims to do jihad to eliminate all un-believers in islam only to establish Islam all over the world. 
Mr. Zamir said: "So, a true follower of Islam must therefore stand up against all sorts of terrorism and violence; and instead propagate peace, mercy and forgiveness..... The condemnation of violence is deeply rooted in true Islamic values based on the Qur'anic instructions and the tradition of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)...... So, a true follower of Islam must therefore stand up against all sorts of terrorism and violence; and instead propagate peace, mercy and forgiveness."      

My response: Where are those good/moderate muslims? Where are the protest against pious muslims who are busy killing non-muslims? Absolutely none. Only some hypocrites like you who are doing Taqqiyya only. There are only whole bunch of utter ignorant muslims and many more devout muslims who are obeying Koran by killing non-muslims. How muslims can go against the sacred Koran by which Allah asked to kill, kill, and kill, and be killed? Do you have any answer to all these questions?  

Actually, all terrorists are the real Muslims, and they are the Muslims by the book. All others so called progressive Muslims (living in the western comfort) are simply Muslims by virtue of their birth in a Muslim family only. They don't know real Islam. 

I urge you Mr. Zamir to read all the attached articles and please tell me who is wrong here!!!!  Thank you very much.


Syed K. Mirza (SKM)

(A sincere Koran reader)

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 10:36 AM, <> wrote:
                        Islam and terrorism: response to Zahid B. Zamir's article in the Daily Star, January 14, 2015
   Zahid  Zamir rightly decries terrorism and many, me included, will agree with him. Under the denunciation, however, lies the facile, age-old assertion that Islam is a religion of peace, and that terrorism cannot be compatible with such a faith. "The word Islam came," he says "from the same Arabic root as the word peace." End of story? Have we not heard it a million times?   (Incidentally, "Islam" can also be said to have been derived from, "submission" to the will of Allah.)  As usual, there are quotes from the Koran and storied from hadith purporting to show how peace-loving Allah wants Muslims to be. While there are many words, there are precious little facts and history.
    It is the height of irony that Mr. Zamir invokes Robespierre, who "first used terrorism by sending thousands of people to Guillotines." I ask him to cast his mind some fourteen hundred years back. Terror by execution has a history that long predates the Reign of Terror under the French Revolution. Look at the scene that follows, for example.
   The year is 5 A.H. The besieged Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayzah has surrendered to the Prophet of Islam. The men of the tribe, numbering anywhere between 600 and 900, are lined up. Then, one by one they are beheaded, 'Ali and Zubayr, the Prophet's companions, leading the slaughter.  Trenches dug to receive the blood of the victims fill up. The high heavens fill up with the wails of women and children. The Prophet personally beheads the only woman condemned to die.
   The terror of 5 A.H. is a historical fact, recorded, among others, by the historian Al- Tabari,  and I am sure Mr. Zamir knows it. Yet in his mind it is eclipsed by the terror of the French Revolution. Neither does he mention assassinations ordered by the Prophet of Islam.  Among them was the killing of Ka'ab bin-al Ashraf, a Jewish poet. Apparently the man was not well disposed towards the Prophet and is reported to have written poems satirizing him. (Smacks of  Charlie Hebdo?) According to Sahih Al-Bukhari the Messenger of God said "Who will kill Ka'b bin al- Ashraf who has hurt allah and His Messenger?" A companion promptly agreed to kill the ruffian. The assassination was duly accomplished. Soon after, Abu Rafi, another Jew, was assassinated.  Sahih Al-Bukhari describes the killing in considerable detail. After the killing, the assassin, by the name of Atik, told his accomplices that Allah has killed Rafi, and went on to report to the Prophet that the mission had been accomplished.
    These blood-letting and cruelty speak louder than any of Mr. Zamir's pious wishes and quotations, and I have only so much time to deal with them. Muslims who have so far been content with the "Islam- is- a- religion -of- peace" slogan alone must think harder.
     Talking of that history, it is gorier than the above accounts may suggest. Much of the present acts of barbarism by the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, ISIS, has been inspired by history of the caliphate that followed the Prophet's death.  Starting with the rule of caliph 'Uthman, the third Rightly Guided caliph, bloodshed started among Muslims themselves, with each belligerent faction claiming right on its side. Among the factions were the Khawarij, perhaps the most blood-thirsty.  This is that caliphate the ISIS takes to, with its Khawarij faction as its role model.  It is also that mirage of the Rightly Guided caliphs many 'true' still Muslims look up to.  Mr. Zamir seems oblivious of that bloody history.
  It has become routine for Islamists to present selective readings of the Koran and then assume that is all that is needed to 'prove' that Islam is a religion of peace and love  This is no place to go into this issue in detail.  Mr. Zamir's citation of several verses of the Koran purporting to urge men to treat fellow human beings with kindness and love call to my mind these verses of the Koran:
                   For the worst of the beasts in the sight of God are those who reject Him…(8.55)                                                                                                                               
                  O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean, so let them not, after this year of
                   theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. (9.28)                                                                                                                                            
      One naturally wonders if it is possible for humans to love those whom God damns so utterly? 
        Mahfuzur Rahman      
-----Original Message-----
To: Zahid Zamir <>; bd journalists <>; notun Bangladesh <>; reform-bd <>; Zoglul Zoglul <>; <>; ovimot yahoogroups <>; la-discussion <>; pfc-friends <>; chottala <>; ibnmasum <>; BANGLADESH C.FORUM <>; farhad mazhar <>; Faruque Alamgir <>; Dr FM Kamal kamal <>
Sent: Tue, Jan 13, 2015 11:03 pm
Subject: {PFC-Friends} RE: An article in the Daily Star

Mr. Zamir,
Thanks for your excellent article. But I feel it was one-sided. I posted the following comments, but not sure if it went. I don't do FB, nor did I sign up for the TDS.
Excellent piece. Good quotes from the Holy Quran. These quotes should be widely circulated. But there is one aspect missing in the article. One does not become a thief out of nothing. To start with, want or deprivation makes one a thief, then it becomes his habit and then a profession. Similarly one is not born with a seal of terrorist. Circumstances force him/her to be one. Once someone becomes a professional terrorist, he will put forward any argument to justify his/her action. To root out terrorism, one must go to the root cause and try to remove those causes. Treating the patient is okay, but treating the disease is more important. But few will attempt that, other than blaming and condemning the terrorist and the terror acts. Everybody knows the underlying cause of the mid-east problems but nobody will dare to fix it.

Lately there are many theories in the print to suggest that much of the terrorist activities of the past were state-sponsored. Therefore, it is difficult to apportion the blame. 

Subject: An article in the Daily Star
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 16:50:16 -0500

Assalamu' Alaikum. Here is an article of mine published in today's daily star on Islam and Terrorism . Here is the link for your information. please pen a few sentences in the comment section after you are done reading. Although Daily star has reduced the size from 1700 words to 1000 words, the message still gets across. 



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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
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