Interview: Maulana Fazlur Rahim on 'Modern' and
Technical Education in Madrasas
Maulana Shah Muhammad Fazlur Rahim Mujadiddi Nadwi is
the Rector of the Jamiat ul-Hidaya, a unique madrasa
in Jaipur, Rajasthan, which combines religious,
'modern' and technical education. He also heads the
Shah Muhammad Abdur Rahim Educational Trust, which
runs several educational institutions in Jaipur and
elsewhere. In this interview with Yoginder Sikand he
talks about his work and about madrasa education in
India.
Q: You are considered to be a pioneer in seeking to
combine religious and 'modern', including technical,
education in the madrasas. How did this all start?
A: The story goes back to my great-grandfather, Hazrat
Shah Muhammad Hidayat Ali, a noted Naqshbandi Sufi and
scholar. He who felt the need for reform in the
madrasa system by introducing 'modern' subjects as
well, for which purpose he set up the Madrasa talim
ul-Islam in Jaipur. This was in the period before
India's independence. However, he died in 1951, and
his dream was left unfulfilled. Following this, my
father, Shah Muhammad Abdur Rahim, seeking to pursue
this dream, contacted various large madrasas across
India, exhorting them to open departments of 'modern'
and technical education so that their graduates could
be economically self-sufficient instead of having to
depend on others. Yet, his efforts met with almost no
response. Some ulema argued that it was impossible to
combine religious and other forms of education. Other
said that while it might well be possible, it would
serve no positive purpose. Yet others admitted that it
was possible and a good thing but declined to act on
my father's advice on the grounds that this would mean
a departure from the tradition set by their
predecessors.
Meeting with no positive response to his appeals, my
father decided to himself set up a model madrasa
providing religious, 'modern' as well as technical
education so that others could possibly emulate it.
This took the form of the Jamiat ul-Hidaya, which
began functioning in 1985. My father managed it till
his death in 1994.
Q: What is the course of studies that students at the
Jamiat ul-Hidaya undergo?
A: In contrast to most other madrasas, at the Jamiat
ul-Hidaya students study the various Islamic
disciplines till the graduation or alimiyat level, but
alongside this they also have to study various
'modern' subjects, for which we follow the syllabus
prescribed by the National Council for Educational
Research and Training (NCERT). This year, our students
appeared for the tenth grade examinations conducted by
the National Institute of Open Schooling, and the
results were quite impressive.
Our course of study begins at the sixth grade. After
students finish the tenth grade examination, they do
four years more of religious education while also
learning a particular technical trade or craft, such
as computers, automobile repairing, draughtsmanship,
accountancy and so on, so that once they finish they
won't have to depend on others for their livelihood.
In this way we are trying to bridge the enormous gap
between madrasas and the 'regular' system of
education. Several of our students are now studying at
regular universities, such as the Jamia Millia Islamia
in New Delhi and the Aligarh Muslim University. Some
of them are working as ulema, but many others have
taken up a range of other occupations, including in
banks, offices, business concerns and translation
bureaus in India and in West Asia. One of our students
even went on to become an aircraft engineer.
In terms of teachers' background, also, we are quite
different from most other madrasas. Roughly half of
our teachers are madrasa-trained ulema and the rest
have studied in 'modern' colleges and universities.
Likewise, our roughly 700 students come from families
with different sectarian affiliations, which, again,
is in contrast to most madrasas that select only those
students whose parents subscribe to their particular
school of thought.
Q: Some ulema insist that technical education must not
be introduced in madrasas, arguing that this might
overburden the students, or divert their attention
from their religious studies. How do you, as one of
the pioneers of technical education in madrasas,
respond?
A: We do not say that all madrasa graduates should
become professional ulema or madrasa teachers.
Everyone needs to pursue some occupation and people
should have career options. Why cannot an alim, a
graduate of a madrasa, be a good accountant,
government official, journalist or businessman? That
way they will be also able to tell the people they
come into contact with in their professional
capacities about Islam and about Muslims. Of course,
our main intention is to train good, pious and
committed religious scholars, but they must be able to
be economically self-sufficient, which they can be if
they know a particular trade or craft.
This is no in innovation, I must stress. After all,
many leading ulema in the past took up a range of
careers, including some that are considered as
'humble', but yet made immense contributions to
society. For instance, Imam Qudduri worked as a
potter, and Imam Abu Hanifa engaged in trade. While
thus being economically self-sufficient they were also
able to devote themselves properly to their scholarly
pursuits.
Q: Some ulema argue that madrasas must not teach
'modern' subjects, claiming that this would be simply
too much for the students to bear. How do you react to
this view?
A: I firmly believe that for the ulema and madrasa
students to join the 'mainstream', they must have at
least a basic knowledge of certain 'modern' subjects,
as well as English and local and regional languages.
In the absence of this, Muslims cannot progress and
nor can the country as a whole. Increasingly, I think,
many ulema are themselves realizing this.
The division between 'religious' and 'secular' or
'worldly' education that some people make is
completely un-Islamic. Islam sees knowledge as a
comprehensive whole and positively encourages the
acquisition of all forms of socially useful knowledge.
If you look at Muslim history, you will see that in
the past Muslims produced a great many scientists,
philosophers, mathematicians, doctors and so on. Many
of them were pious Muslims and several of them were
Islamic scholars at the same time.
Q: What reforms would you suggest in the present
system of studies followed in most traditional
madrasas?
A: The syllabus today followed in most South Asian
madrasas is some variant or the other of the dars-e
nizami, a curriculum developed three hundred years ago
by Mulla Nizamuddin of the Firangi Mahal in Lucknow.
For its times, the dars-e nizami was very appropriate
and relevant. It was also job-oriented, helping train
bureaucrats and officials for the royal courts. But
today, the dars-e nizami has largely lost its link
with employment, and an institution that no longer has
that sort of link cannot last long. Hence, I would
urge, madrasas need to reform in accordance with
modern needs, while still preserving their basic
purpose of training would-be ulema.
I think the only way this can happen is to incorporate
and give a respectful place to basic 'modern' subjects
in the madrasa curriculum, as we have done in the
Jamiat ul-Hidaya. In this way, students, after gaining
a basic grounding in religious and 'modern' subjects,
can later decide for themselves if they want to go on
specialize in Islamic Studies or in one or the other
'modern' subject.
Q: Some ulema dismiss talk of introducing basic
'modern' education in the madrasas as an alleged
'anti-Islamic conspiracy'. How do you look at this
claim?
A: I think some people are apprehensive that changes
in the madrasa curriculum, even on the lines that I
have suggested, might damage or destroy the religious
identity of the madrasas. I, however, beg to differ. I
think this fear is baseless. It is wrong to see even
the most sincere suggestions for reform as a
'conspiracy'. People who think like this need to open
their minds and seriously look at reality.
At the same time, however, I must state that when
certain dominant Western powers or anti-Muslim
ideologues talk of the need for madrasa 'reforms',
their intentions are certainly very suspect. There is
a hidden motive behind their urgings. These are often
motivated by the intention to control, damage or
destroy madrasas and Islamic identity and commitment
and to diminish the influence of the ulema.
Q: What do you feel about the functioning of madrasas
that are linked to government-appointed madrasa boards
in certain states? How do you think the state should
seek to relate to madrasas?
A: With a few exceptions, I think the general
experience of such madrasas has been that once they
come under such boards their standards decline and
teachers do not take their teaching work very
seriously, being now assured of a regular salary from
the government. I have not heard of a single madrasa
whose standards have improved after coming under a
government-appointed madrasa board. So, personally, I
think that rather than take up the task of changing
existing madrasas or of constituting madrasa boards in
more states or of setting up a National madrasa Board,
as is now being talked about, the state should open
its own model madrasas that combine both religious as
well as 'modern' education. It is much better if the
managers of the madrasas themselves take up the task
of madrasa reforms than to let the state do so.
Q: How do you see the ongoing propaganda offensive
against madrasas in India, targeting them alleged
'dens of terror'?
A: This propaganda is completely wrong and baseless.
As I see it, is a sinister ploy to defame madrasas,
the ulema and Muslims in general. Now, if some
anti-social character secretly takes refuge in a
madrasa without revealing his real identity, how can
you blame that madrasa or all madrasas, for that
matter? The same is true if such a person hides in a
college, a church or a temple. Madrasas in our country
do not preach hatred of other communities or engage in
or encourage any illegal or unconstitutional activity.
Anyone is welcome to visit madrasas to see things for
himself. From time to time, Indian Muslim leaders have
been declaring that if a single madrasa is proved to
be engaged in training terrorists we Muslims would be
the first to demand that it be shut down. However,
despite all sorts of wild allegations against
madrasas, no evidence of a single Indian madrasa being
engaged in terrorism has been discovered.
Besides those who are willfully engaged in seeking to
defame the madrasas, there are others who think of
madrasas in stereotypically negative terms primarily
because they have had no association with the ulema or
even with 'ordinary' Muslims. I think this is an issue
that the ulema desperately need to address. Most ulema
have very little interaction with people of other
faiths. I think we must seek to build good relations
with them. The lack of communication is responsible,
to a large extent, in promoting misunderstandings on
both sides. In this regard, I would also suggest that
the ulema and the non-Muslim media should increasingly
interact, on a positive basis, and not, as is often
the case, only in the context of some sensational
issue, real or imaginary. The ulema should seek to
write in languages other than Urdu, such as English,
Hindi and the various regional languages, to
communicate their views and concerns to non-Muslims
who cannot read Urdu. For this they need to learn
other languages, and not consider that any language
belongs to or is associated with only a particular
community or that Urdu is a somehow 'Muslim' language,
which is not quite the case.
Further, I strongly believe that for not just the
Indian Muslims, but for our country as a whole, to
progress Hindus, Muslims and others must closely
interact, considering each others' problems as our own
and as of the country as a whole. They must seek to
solve them jointly. Madrasas should organize regular
programmes, to which they can invite non-Muslims as
speakers and as members of the audience. In this way,
non-Muslims can also learn what madrasas are actually
all about.
Q: Some traditionalist ulema might oppose such
interaction, thinking that it might impact on the
religious identity of madrasa students.
A: I think this is absolutely wrong and if some people
do feel this way it represents a horrible form of
narrow-mindedness.
Q: Can you briefly describe the other educational
projects that you have recently launched?
A: A decade ago, we started the Imam Rabbani Public
School in Jaipur. We began with 5 lady teachers and
thirty-five students. Today, it is a Hindi-medium
school till the 12th standard, following the Rajasthan
state school curriculum. It is now one of the biggest
Muslim-run schools in Rajasthan, with some 3000
students. Girls and boys are roughly equal in number.
Many of our teachers are Hindus.
Besides this, we are also running three civil service
coaching centres, one each in New Delhi, Lucknow and
Aligarh, to train Muslim students for various civil
service examinations and to assist them to get
admission into Muslim-run institutions of higher
learning without paying hefty donation fees. When we
set up these centres, some people felt it was
pointless. They argued that in any case Muslims would
not be admitted into civil services due to anti-Muslim
discrimination. But my argument was that we should
understand that we are a minority, and that the many
rights that our country's Constitution gives us can
only be actually secured when we have adequate
representation in the government services. Only in
this way can we effectively put forward our views and
articulate our voices to the government, the
bureaucracy and society at large. Anti-Muslim
discrimination can be addressed only when we join the
'mainstream' through the democratic process. So, my
answer to our critics was that Muslim students can
indeed get into the civil services if they are
competently trained. And I must say that our civil
services' training centres have met with fairly good
success.
==============================================
More details about the Jamiat ul-Hidaya can be had
from its website http://www.jameatulhidaya.org
Sukhia Sab Sansar Khaye Aur Soye
Dukhia Das Kabir Jagey Aur Roye
The world is 'happy', eating and sleeping
The forlorn Kabir Das is awake and weeping
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