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Monday, May 28, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Madrasah Education

Agree! Religion is faith based and it would not tolerate any logic unless the logic itself can bring more darkness to the believers!
Pure logic and religion are no good mix!
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS

From: Jiten Roy <>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Madrasah Education

Of course he will ignore the chronology because it goes against his argument.
Here we have two people, Q. Rahman and K. Das, from two opposite poles, talking about something that, probably, others have no interest at all. Q. Rahman is biased towards his religion, while K. Das is free from all religious obligations. How can you convince a faith-based person coutering his/her religious views? You can't. So far I have never seen any agreement between them. In fact, Q. Rahman thinks he is always right, and K. Das is always wrong in spite of all his references. Faith is not based on references. I think they have hit the wall at this point. I say - let's call it a day now. It's better not to prolong a discussion with an ideologue. Let's promote more discussions between two free-thinkers in stead; that's much more interesting. This is pretty boring ….
Jiten Roy
--- On Mon, 5/28/12, Kamal Das <> wrote:

From: Kamal Das <>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Madrasah Education
Date: Monday, May 28, 2012, 8:49 PM

You have ignored the chronology of Hebrew and Arabic languages.  Arabic was developed about three thousand years later than Hebrew mostly from the language of the Nestorians.  A few Hebrew words might have diffused into Arabic and that does not make them sister languages.  Consider the ethnicity of the monk Bahira alias Sergius the Nestorian and you would get the clue of simultaneous development of Islam and Arabic.

To get a proper 'education', you might need to unlearn most of what you learned before.  Arabic and Hebrew scripts , instead of being very similar as your observation is, have no similarity at all.

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 9:00 PM, qar <> wrote:

I have enough education to back up what I said about Arabic and Hebrew as "Sister" language. The scripts are NOT the same (If that was the case, they would not have TWO different script) but very similar to each other. Similar to Bangla and Hindi script. For people who do not have a lot of time to devote to this topic, just read the next para....

Semitic languages

The Semitic languages are a group of related languages whose living representatives are spoken by more than 270 million people across much of the Middle East, North Africa and the Horn of Africa. They constitute a branch of the Afroasiaticlanguage family. The most widely spoken Semitic languages today are Arabic[1] (206 million native speakers),[2] Amharic(27 million),[3][4] Hebrew (about 7 million)[5] Tigrinya (6.7 million),[6] and Aramaic (about 2.2 million)..................Click here for the rest of the article.

However if you have more credible source than "curator", feel free to share.

I am sharing an interesting article, which has few Hebrew alphabet. Since most Muslims do know Arabic alphabets, I need not to explain more to them. ....

Muhammad's name appeared in Haggai 2:7 under the hebrew word mahmad (mhmd) which means praised one (Muhammad is Arabic for praised one). It almost undoubtedly is referring to the Arabic Prophet Muhammad.
The 5th chapter of Songs of Solomon is discussing someone. Jews will say it is discussing Solomon, while Christians will say it is discussing Jesus. Considering this is the Songs of Solomon, it would seem logical that it is discussing Solomon. The verses describing this mystery man have the narators speech conjuagted in the feminine (meaning it is a woman who is describing this man) so it is possible that it is one of Solomon's wives discussing her Husband (Solomon). However, if a Christian tries to assert that Jesus is being discussed, then they are insinuating that this is discussing a future prophet (a man who was not yet alive at that point), a prophesy.... If the 5th chapter of Songs of Solomon is looking into the future, then there is no doubt it is discussing Muhammad.
Throughout the chapter, someone is being discussed. Whomever it is, verse 15 says his "countenance (face) is as Lebanon", so this is an Arabic gentleman (or Arab looking), a Semitic man none the less. Verse 11 says "his head is as the most fine gold, his locks are wavy, and black as a raven". Verse 10 describes this man as being "radiant and ruddy" which means he was slightly light-skinned with a rosy color. This can be confirmed in the Sahih Bukhari Hadiths, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 747, which says Muhammad was slightly light skinned, with a rosy color (and also has the same hair as is mentioned in verse 11). Also verse 14 describes this man as having a stomach like ivory. I take it this means the parts of his body that were usually covered by his garment from the sun, were very white (like ivory). This also can be atributed to Muhammad who although having a rosy, golden color, had white armpitts (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 17, Number 141 says you could see the whites of his armpitt when he raised his hand). WHAT'S THE POINT?!?!
Discussing skin color, and hair color is fruitless, and if I was basing it solely on that, it could be describing ANY Semitic man. However, this person's name is given. In reading the English translation of Songs 5:16 it finishes the description by saying "He is altogether lovely". The words "altogether lovely" was translated from mahmad (mhmd). We'll take a closer look at this four character word, and prove this is talking about Muhammad...
First of all, the way this word is written is Hebrew is mhmd. That happens to be the EXACT same was Muhammad's name is written in Hebrew. Let's look at the spelling of this word...

It has four characters. Going from right to left they are...
Now, when writing in Hebrew, there is no difference between the word mahmad (Mahmad) and Muhammad (Muhammad ). The only difference is in the vowels used when pronouncing this word (Mahmad). Hebrew is an ancient language, and there are no vowels. It is made up of 22 consonants. In ancient times, the reader decided on his own which vowels to add in. It was not until the 8th century that vowels were introduced, in the form of dots and lines. However, this has nothing to do with real Hebrew. The word mahmad (Mahmad) in ancient times would most likely have been pronounced "mahamad".
According to Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary, Mahmad is correctly pronounced "mahamad" (not mahmad) which is very close to Muhammad.

Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English Dictionary defines "Mahmad" as "lovely, coveted one, precious one, praised one". The correct way to say "praised one" in Arabic is Muhammad, so this is the same word!
As was stated before, the name Muhammad (Muhammad) and the word mahmad (Mahmad) are spelled exactly the same way in Hebrew, and both have the same meaning. The only reason they are pronounced different is because of vowels (dots and lines) introduced in the eigth century.
The Hebrew word for praised one is
The Hebrew word for Muhammad (the Arabic Prophet) is
In conclusion, if Songs of Solomon chapter 5 is discussing a man to come after that time, it is without a doubt Muhammad, as it even mentions his name. Any Christian who believes Jesus is the Messiah, and believes that books were sent down by God after the TaNaKh (Jewish Bible), then surely they should take into account what they just read here, and consider the Qur'an before making a decision.


-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <>
To: mukto-mona <>
Sent: Mon, May 28, 2012 8:42 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Madrasah Education

The mother language of Arabic is Assyrian originated in Kufa near Karbala.  Hebrew scripture is very different from Arabic.  In an exhibition of scriptures in a University museum, the curator approached me failing to find any similarity between those two scriptures.  I suggested him to compare between the Arabic and Nestorian scriptures which he did and came back in minutes and said, "How come did you know it but I didn't"  My answer was rude as usual, "I read history on passion, you did it to make a living"  Aramaic language got importance albeit on a wrong basis after Alexander the Great defeated the Persians with the consequent rise of Christianity.

One should not be arrogant if he is not 'smart' and wants to learn anything.

On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 2:18 AM, qar <> wrote:
I am not as "Smart" as you. Kindly explain what you  just said. Aramaic is related to Hebrew and Arabic. Just like Bangla and Hindu came from Sanskrit, these two languages have some common grounds. I have given couple of example for easy consumption. Hope it helps...


-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <>
To: mukto-mona <>
Sent: Sat, May 26, 2012 9:45 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Madrasah Education

Mother and sister is not really anonymous.  Are they?  Hebrew could be called an aunt of Arabic more properly.

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 8:47 PM, qar <> wrote:
And Hebrew is a "Sister" language of Arabic. For Example, Peace in Arabic is "Salaam" and in Hebrew "Shalom". Prophet in Arabic is "Nabi" and in Hebrew "Navi". The combination of arrogance and ignorance is amusing to watch. :-)

Shalom! (Hebrew for peace)....

-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <>
To: mukto-mona <>
Sent: Thu, May 24, 2012 6:22 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Madrasah Education

As usual, Mr. Q. A. Rahman goes on babbling without a fundamental knowledge on any thing.  Madrassah is derived from the Hebrew word Midrash meaning a place for religious knowledge.

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 8:10 PM, qar <> wrote:
3. Having a primary education in a maktab or a madrasah logically cannot have any positive impact on a student's future academic career that involves modern education including a degree of Bar-at-Law. This only testifies to the student's strong determination to embrace modern education.     

>>>>>>>>> I think we went over this one. Most of us agree the "Current" quality of Madrassa or school system is not acceptable. So my opinion is to improve the madrassa system. Which will combine secular education with enough religious education.

Like it or not religion is part of our culture and reality of our lives. So if we have enough "Educated" people among us with basic education of religious scripture, we can confront fanaticism and politicization of religion. As far as Islam is concern, it has structure to support politics but it does NOT support abusing religion to oppress innocent people. Because of a acute lack of basic understanding of Islam, the mainstream population hesitate to stand up against abusing of religion.

Madrassa is simply arabic word for school (As far as I understand it). You can call it "Patshala" if you please but quality of education should be our "Common concern". We are producing "One liner idiots" in most cases than people with fundamental understanding of religion.

My two cents.....


-----Original Message-----
From: subimal chakrabarty <>
To: mukto-mona <>
Sent: Tue, May 22, 2012 5:35 am
Subject: [mukto-mona] Madrasah Education

1. It is a nice analogy. A book on the theory of probability mentions: If you put a monkey with a typewriter in front of it, by randomly typing, the monkey will one day recreate a sonnet of Shakespeare.
2. There was a time when individual Sanskrit scholars used to run Sanskrit school as a profession. Curriculum included Indian philosophy including Charvak, grammar, literature, alankar, as well as orthodox scriptures. Traces of it may still exist but they do not produce any enlightened graduates. The recent graduates even don't know how to write and read Sanskrit (Devnagori) scripts. They create orthodox priests at best. Indian philosophy and Sanskrit literature are now taught in mainstream education system. The process of transition was obviously painful as it involved earnings of so many Sanskrit scholars who used to run the schools and their graduates.  
3. Having a primary education in a maktab or a madrasah logically cannot have any positive impact on a student's future academic career that involves modern education including a degree of Bar-at-Law. This only testifies to the student's strong determination to embrace modern education.      

From: Shah Deeldar <>
To: "" <>; "" <>; mukto-mona <>
Cc: "" <>; S A Hannan <>; "" <>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: coorection - Re: [KHABOR] RE: [ALOCHONA] RE: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......

As if  a few million monkeys randomly can recreate Shakespeare in some day? I rest my case.
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Khondakar Mowla <>
To:;; mukto-mona <>
Cc:; S A Hannan <>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 6:06 AM
Subject: coorection - Re: [KHABOR] RE: [ALOCHONA] RE: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......

Assalamu Alaikum:
So far I know that Ex Chief justice Syed Mahbub Murshed, ex prime minister Shah Azizur Rahman and probably at least two Chief Justice of Pakistan Supreme Court, Justice Hamoodur Rahman (Burdwani) and chief Justcie Fazal-e-Akbar  (Murshidabadi) and many others of Pakistanis/Bangladeshis like Justice Abdus Sattar were also produced by Madrasa, probably by Calcutta Alia Madrasha (in Taltala).


From: Khondakar Mowla <>
To:;; mukto-mona <>
Sent: Sun, May 20, 2012 3:51:53 AM
Subject: Re: [KHABOR] RE: [ALOCHONA] RE: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......

Assalamu Alaikum:
So far I  know that Ex Chief justice Syed Mahmud Murshed, Shah Azizur Rahman and
probably at least two Chief Justice of Pakistan Supreme Court, Justice Hamudur Rahaman (Burdwani) and Justcie Fazle Rabbi (Murshidabadi) and many others of Pakistanis/Bangladeshis were also produced by Madrasa, probably by Calcutta Alia Madrasha (in Taltala).

From: S A Hannan <>
To:; mukto-mona <>
Sent: Thu, May 17, 2012 11:21:06 PM
Subject: [KHABOR] RE: [ALOCHONA] RE: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......

Shah Deedar you are simplistic. These Madrasah graduates kept the Masjids running, the morals of the nation safe to the extent possible.Madrasas produced many political leaders like Akram Khan, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad., Mufti Mahmud, Moulana Atahar Ali in the past.
Many others who graduated from universities had initial education Madrasas.Even now about one third of the students get education in Dakhil Madrasas and then to the universities and they are better in education and conduct on balance in most cases.
The Madrasa stream is not harming national development. It is assisting by producing relatively more disciplined citizens.
Shah Abdul Hannan
From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Shah Deeldar
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 6:41 PM
To: ; 'mukto-mona'
Subject: Re: [ALOCHONA] RE: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......
I think she is right. Tell me one good thing that was created by Madrassa education except learning something that has no value in modern life. What change did that education brought to Islamic countries? What invention did we make in last five hundred years? It is the modern knowledge cultivated by others serving us with all kinds of products and gizmos. We have become only buyers of manufactured goods and not creators of any damn thing except chanting God is great? And, how long can this go on?
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: S A Hannan <>
To: ; 'mukto-mona' < >
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: [ALOCHONA] RE: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......
This is Farida Majid at her best. She wants banning of all Madrasas.What an extreme statement. No comment is needed .
Her Islam which she parades sometimes is a queer thing. She understands Islam more than all Ulama and other Islamic scholars.
Shah Abdul Hannan
From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Farida Majid
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 10:08 PM
To: mukto-mona
Subject: [ALOCHONA] RE: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......
         Mr. Q Rahman gives us great wisdom from his 'religious' knowledge almost every time he posts. At some point one would thin that he is striving to be the greatest proselytizer of Islam.  My question is: Did he acquire all this vast knowledge from Madrassah education that he received in the past? Does Mr. Rahman himself,  or his sisters, brothers, cousins, friends and relatives send their children to Madrassahs for "authentic teachings of Islam"?

      Unless the honest answer to the question is an unqualified YES Mr. Q Rahman is resorting to a false, malicious propaganda.
The fact on the ground level is that for the benefit of future generations of Muslims in the subcontinent

  Madrassahs should be BANNED from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh .

             The traditional 'moktob' on Fridays that give 'ampara' lessons to little boys and girls at the local mosques in the village have been sufficient religious education for centuries.  In the cities parents can send their children to a weekend 'diniyat' school or something to pick up skills to read the Qur'an.  Parents can provide the needed religious education for their children (just as Mr. Rahman's parents did) without thousands and thousands and thousands of Madrassahs all over the country. The Muslims of Bangladesh are 'naturally' better quality Muslims than their berathars and sisters in the Kingdom of Jahiliya (otherwise known as Saudi Arabia ).

               There should be proper Religious Seminaries or especial Madrassahs where Imams and Khadems of mosques should receive their education.

If you cannot see the politics behind the establishment of these educationally backward,  harmful and useless madrassahs then you ARE part of the propaganda. This has nothing to do with religion.
Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 11:45:45 -0700
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......
1. I will use the word "karma" as a religious or philosophical concept. The said word has very deep meanings.
2. Atheists (example, the Stalin era in the USSR ) may have agenda that can prompt them to kill and torture. I hope I have properly understood the meaning of the statement "Without communal agenda, atheists have no reason to abandon good karmas". Killings and torture by many "religious" dictators (example, Saddam) were or are not communally motivated. The holocausts that descended on the Jews (WW II) and Hindus (1971) were mostly communal in nature. In these two cases Hitler and Yahiya Khan were the villains.   
3. Hatred, discrimination, persecution, and killing are rooted in scriptures. It depends on the ruler how he interprets and implements it. AL (I prefer using AL to BAL--it is my problem, Mr. Rahaman, as the sense of sin is in my mind as I am prejudiced with the word BAL) gave us a great constitution although there was hardly any atheists in that party. Nazibullah and Mollah Omar had diametrically opposite agenda---the former one's being far more progressive and humanitarian than that of the latter's. Even a Taliban member who fought against Soviet ocuupation does not want Taliban to come back to power with the same agenda (closing girls' school for example). 
4. In my judgement (following Campbell ), both Islam and Hinduism originally were tribal in nature. Although the rituals have mostly remained triabal in nature (comparatively more dominating in Hinduism), both the religions are getting more and more universal. Given the multi-cultural, multi-racial, and multi-religious interactive and interdependent pluralistic societies, there is no way out. Isolated and closed societies are suicidal.
5. I do not believe in divine authorities. Every thing we see in scriptures are man made and were captured in the minds and hearts of the sages. Since they are man made and hence are bound to be time- and place-specific, only man is legitimately entitled to challenge, modify, and update them. I always emphasize on the word "reinterpretation". I find the concept of "reincarnation" or "Avatar" interesting and instructive. If we are afraid to challenge, reinterpret, and update, we are doomed to live a life that is not "modern". The concept of "Avatar" guarantees the progress of the society as you do not get stuck to a particular Avatar and successive Avatrs are supposed to be more and more progressive. 
6. It does not matter when eating beef was forbidden, it is still a fact that to a practicing Hindu, the cow is sacred and eating beef is against his religion. I have seen many Hindus not following this religious edict thanks to the freedom and rationality that they use to break the barrier to enjoy the cheap resources of the world a little bit more. Christians in general are more open in this matter.
7. I am aware that Mr. Rahman is not advocation for implementing Islamic rule in Bangladeh. But I wnt to emphasize that I am dead against the so called "Islamic" rule in Bangladesh . I like 1972 constitution which has already been raped several times. I believe in the principle of "separation of the church from the state". Even I do not buy the idea that a state ( Bangladesh ) get pro-actively involved with an international organization (OIC) in declaring a city (Dhaka) as the capital (Dhaka) of a particular religious (Islamic) culture of a continent ( Asia ) for a particular year (1212). I am not aware of the terms of reference that Bangladesh will have to follow in case of capital of Islamic culture matter. In my opinion it should kept private and not a state affair. It should however be allright for the PM who happens to be the head of the government of a Muslim majority country to become the chief guest in any occasion related to this. But what can we do? Our dependence on the Islamic countries is still unlimited.
8. I fully agree that the improvemnt in quality of Islamic education will minimize the unhappy incidences like the one that has recently happened in a madrasa. Even a several decades ago Greek philosophies used to be taught in the madrasas of the subcontinent. I am not sure what they have now in the curriculum. Our governments have neither commitments nor resources to improve the system. They do not have the courage either to undertake such a program.         
From: qar <>
Sent: Sunday, May 6, 2012 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......
the, ists, without communal agenda, have no reason to abandon good-karmas. Also, in my view, there is another class of people who serve God through good-deeds only, devoid of any religious ideology have no incentive to deviate from their good-karmas.
>>>>>>>>>> I am sure disorder in Bangladesh bothers you enough to write about it. It is the same for me. However some of your assumptions are probably based on observation not based on teachings of religion. Rightly you pointed out that without communal agenda, atheists have no reason to abandon good-karmas.
Guess you "Assumed" that religion dictates us to work against people of other faiths and no faiths. Judging by some so called religious parties I cannot blame you for such assumptions but that is NOT what Islam (As a Muslim I just want to talk about Islam in my post) is all about. Unlike most prominent faiths, Islam does have a Global outlook. The criminal laws are mostly same for people of all faiths. It does not favor Muslims over non-Muslims. In civil cases there are differences (Like laws of inheritance). The main problem is so called religious parties often focus on laws that favors their own ideologies (Frequently it has a magical relationship with going to power and grow influence in politics). Muslims cannot pick and chose laws of Allah (SWT). They should try their level best to practice as much as possible. Which includes respecting "Rights" (Haq) of other people. Islamic "Communal agendas" is mainly talking about one God (Not forcing others to this ideology but TALKING about), establish rights of all people, secure peace for the mass. As I mentioned in a recent post BAL was flexible about it's socialist agenda and it helped our country in a big way. We cannot be slaves of "Processes" only, we have to ensure we are following processes properly. For most Muslims in Bangladesh , we are largely "Tradition bound" not religion bound. Guess you can say the same about Hindus as well. As one Hindu scholar mentioned, there is nothing in scriptures of "Sanatana Dharma" prohibiting it's followers from consuming beef but it was a popular movement to "Respond" to Jainism. So Hindus adopted some of the theologies of Jains and stopped eating beef. I feel if we can improve the "Quality" of Islamic education in Bangladesh , it will make our country a better place to live. fortunately there are some bright people who are working hard in educating people about authentic teachings of Islam and hopefully positively impact our country. Shalom! -----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy < > To: mukto-mona < > Sent: Sun, May 6, 2012 7:45 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......


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