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Wednesday, June 6, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka University

I see that. Also Dara translated the Upanishads into Persi, not Bengali. As a matter fact, it is the Pathans, not the Mughals, who patronized Bengali. 
But I like the way Soumitra has asked questions and then provided us with facts that we really need to reflect on to recognize our real ancestry and identity. 
We have now been more divided. We want to be more Hindu or more Muslim and less Bengali. We are still confused about our cultural and mational identity. 
There is a myth running that the Bengali Muslims are all converts from Hindus (specifically from Namashudras) which is not supported totally by Niharranjan Roy. Even during the Sena dynasty (about 700 years ago) huge numbers of Bengalis  were outside the Chaturvarna system) which means that they were not even Shudras i.e. not Hindus at all. Therefore it is highly probable that all the Muslim converts came from them. Many of the indigenous people had already become Jains and Buddhists. It has been said that the word "nyara" commonly used for Muslims by many Hindus as a matter of fact refer to the Buddhists with their heads shaven. 
History is a great eye opener. It's teachings are painful too when we want to stick to our old beliefs. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 4, 2012, at 1:07 AM, Kamal Das <> wrote:


Soumitra Bose has a screwed up conception of chronology of Bengali culture.  How could he place Hussain shah after Dara Sukoh.  His observation of Hindu mythology is no better.  Saeaswati is Brahma's daughter and consort.

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <> wrote:

 While Soumitra has provided us with thought provoking information on which we all Bengalis should meditate (we have got too divisive!), I will make only one comment on Farida Majid's post. With my limited knowledge on the subject I will soley rely on Niharranjan Roy's "Bangalir Itihas: Adi Porbo" which is a Bible for me. This book was updated by the author himself about three decades ago. I don't think research in this field has brought any thing significantly new for us. The basic historical fact mentioned by Farida is in complete agreement with the content in Roy's book (a 800-page book). Before appearance of various religions in Bengal (Jainism being the first one according to Roy), Bengalis had their own religious beliefs and practices much of which over time has been integrated with what we call Hindu religious culture today. We see similar synthesis in other great religions also.     

From: Soumitra Bose <>
To: Farida Majid <>
Cc:;; Subimal Chakraborty <>
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2012 12:15 AM

Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka University

Those who do have a confusion on their ancestry, those who have faked their history is more worried about ancestry. Ancestry is there as a reference and to transgress not to live it on but to live it up. There is nothing common among Hindus, while in Bengal everyone considers Saraswati to be Brahma Itself, the north-indians could not stomach it and made Saraswati the second wife of Vishnu, all without any reference to any mythological chain. In Bengal among the Hindus, Vishnu is much less of importance than Brahma, and in other parts of South India Shiva is the numero Uno. while Ganesh is another avatar of Brahma in Maharashtra in Bengal it is never that way. Brahma here dons the top of Durga's Chala where in north India it is Vishnu and in Kanauj it is Shiva. While Shiva is Debadidev Maheswar, Brahma is Devati Nirgun only having the sakar form of Saraswati, who cannot marry and yet chooses her own cohort because Knowledge goes to the seeker and does not get bound to any single practitioner - this is the meaning and relevance of myth- one needs a special initiation to follow it. 
Bengal's Islam came from Shah Jalal who never considered anything separate with Hindus and Muslims. Islam was practiced in more secular a way  in Bengal than anywhere in the world  Follow the tradition and one finds Bengal Islam as a continuity of the Hindu tradition[ vide Bankim's comment and Da(da) thakur Sarat pandit's remarks. The Bengali Hindu tradition is a gift of Islam as the very inception of Hindu books in Bangla script was first initiated by Dara Sukho and then much later Hussain Saah, even Mahabharat and Ramayan underwent changes in content here and was sponsored by Muslim sultanate. And even if all these is not proof enough, the Maithili myths of Chand Saudagar and the entire collection of Mangalkavya with the very salient inclusion of Dharmamangal [ which is totally Buddhist] is a philosophical rebuttal of the war mongering tradition of Mahabharat and Ramayan.

What is the Hindu tradition of Bengal? Mandhata and Lavan or the marauder Ram and the debauch Lakshman and Ram who raped the mother of Luv and Kush? What is the Hindu tradition of Bengal? the folk lores of Behula and Maimensingh or the lecherous debauchery of the Devas in Swarga. What is the Hindu tradition of Bengal? the Marangburu and the Bonmata/Bonbibis or the arson and decimation of Noimisharanya? What is the Hindu tradition of Bengal? the acceptance of the judgement of the Qazi [ who was the Nana of Chaitanya] even by the Brahmins or Manusmriti - which every Bengali, Nepali and Maithili breaks every day by eating non-scaled fish and mutton and presents to Saraswati a pair of New Ilish as the prime tribute? What is the Hindu tradition of Bengal? the acceptance of two sons Naren and Afzal by Sarada as her two sons, the starting of Ghuitari Sharif Urs by the resident Roychowdhury family, the first invocation of Bonmata only by the Imam who brings the deity in Tazia and then leaves it open for the Hindus after he has completed his Telawat, OR the communal hatred of untouchability? What is the tradition then? - the tradition is not singular or individual, it is the general acceptance by the people on the fields who start their seed sowing by chanting "Krishna Radhe and Badar Badar" [ During the Tebhaga movement the name of Kangshari Haldar - the legendary peasant leader's name was added too']. The tradition is when the Hindu Brahmin mother takes her new born son to the dargah of Pir to dedicate the infant first to the maazaar by donating a chador and shinni and then takes the kid to the local Kali mandir- that is the tradition when the first vow taken by a Hindu housewife in the morning to start her daily chores with tying a knot in her Saree in the name of Poigambar thakur! - that is the tradition - the tradition of Hindu Bengal, the tradition of Muslim Bengal is when after the day's hard work the muslim peasant comes to the nat mandap and demands the prasad as his right and Nazrul singing "Mayer payer joba hoye thakbo je re mon"- this is the tradition of Christian Bengal where from the Christmas eve to the 1st of January ,christian villages have Mata Mary o Sishu Jishus idol on the entrance of every Muslim para - it is the same as "Ma Aminar kole sishu Rasul dole" in the same line as Ma Joshodar kole sishu gopal dole" that is the tradition  pf secular Bengal - an unique example in the whole world, where most of the Bengali names are those of Sidhartha Gautam Buddha's and hindu gods and goddess names fall far below in the popularity scale, where Muslim, Hindu, Christian Budhhist all have a second name - the daak naam - that is Bengal , our own Bengal - the Secular Bengal - the Bengal of all traditions! Allah and Durga is always there to give us pani and be the sentinel of our journey. We would always sigh in their name and would always vouch in Mata Mary's name!   This is our tradition!

On 1 June 2012 03:19, Farida Majid <> wrote:
           What Hindu ancestry is being talked about?  There is no such thing.   Hindus of Bengal (probably the latest Hindus), and actually others in the rest of India, cannot boast of any abstract "Hindu" ancestry.  Stop this nonsense piece of concocted "History of India" by James Mill, father of John Stuart Mill.

          Most of Bengal's Hindus, Muslims Christians and Bouddha hail from the same cluster of anthropologically recognizable ethnic groups. Depending on the various areas of Bengal, Northern, South-Eastern, Southern, etc people mass converted to big religions like Hinduism or Islam within two or three centuries of each other.

          I have been saying this over and over again. Yet the old colonial 'wrong' history keeps popping up.

         Why are these people constantly talking of religion with such backward knowledge of history of their own land which they obstinately refuse to update?

                       Farida Majid

Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 14:22:11 -0700
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka University

I totally agree with everything that Mr. Shah Deeldar wrote below.
In fact, regarding hateful minds, I have been saying the same thing for many years. That is, a Muslim who hates innocent Hindus could not possibly stop there; he would find reasons to hate innocent Muslims also. The same goes to hateful minds of all varieties: Hindus, Christians, Jews, etc. Thus, hatred in any form should be shunned for a civilized and peaceful world. Hateful minds need to be re-educated and, if needed, punished. Hatred is hurtful not only to the immediate victims; it ultimately hurts the criminal group also; thus causing broad-based long-term damages to humanity.
It is really too much of a shame for the intelligent human race to have hateful minds based upon nonsensical religious beliefs.
Sukhamaya Bain
From: Shah Deeldar <>
To: "" <>
Cc: ...................... 
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka University

Muslims are not any exceptions to the typical human behavior. Any group of people would like to find some commonality or differences with other groups of people and fight the "common enemy". When they do not find any common enemy, they will find differences within the same group and fight the people who look different or behave differently. The exceptions are rare unless the group has different motives and agenda. You can easily test this by putting bunch of Muslims (or Hindus/Christians) in a village and let them interact for few months. Certain group of Muslims will look down on others even they pray to the same Allah.

Yes, for some good or bad reason, people would like to be connected to the Arabian royal blood in order to be able to  boast about their ancestry. That is because of their poor self confidence and education. I would agree with you about Pakistani Muslims hating more their Hindu ancestry than Bengali Muslims. New converts are always less tolerant to their past. The reason is obvious!
The bottom line is that God is not a solution when people think their God is better and more powerful than other people' Gods. It is rather a refuge for certain scoundrels, who do not want to answer some tough questions. It is rather a business with no productivity except producing more illiterates for the society. To a small starving child, an "omnipotence" God has no value at all in comparison to a small piece of bread. 

PS. Sorry for being little off topic.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS


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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190

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