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Thursday, January 1, 2015

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [SPAM?] Re: {PFC-Friends} Re: Top 10 Countries With Highest Rape Crime In2014---See Which County Is In The Top

It was not Lokamanya Tilak, it was Gokhale who said: what Bengal thinks today, the rest of india thinks tomorrow. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 1, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Kamal Das [mukto-mona] <> wrote:


What Bengal think today..... Was said by Lokmanya Tilak, and applied in his time. These days, Bengal has fallen behind others in India. He who finds a part of the world almost heaven should opt to live there. Failure to do so may be due to the lack of his ability and intelligence. Persons like Faruq Chowdhury are products of two nation theory. Their world is made of India and Pakistan, and all seven billion human faces are Hindu and Moslem. Arguing with such morons is a wastage of time.

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On Jan 2, 2015, at 1:09 AM, "Shah DeEldar [mukto-mona]" <> wrote:


Bangladeshi forums are basically full with cut and paste posts without people putting much effort about passing their own opinions. Sometimes. we do not even know whether people are endorsing those cut and paste posts.... or simply want to beat their opponents with a different agenda?

People started to talk about a grand mufti endorsing child marriage in Islam but out of no where, the response was that Indians should be ashamed because the country is the number one rape country in the world? So, this how we behave both privately and publicly. Well, the correct way to respond the post would have been to either support or denounce grand mufti's endorsement. But these midget minded people are totally incapable of making any decent argument except adding more nonsense to the discussion. After a long discussion, you can easily figure out, we do not really care about child marriage or rape victims but whose daddy got a bigger instrument. And, that is a great manifestation of our Bangladeshi true intellect despite 43 years have passed since our great liberation. What Bengalees/ Bangladeshis think today, Indians think tomorrow... has become rather a butt of the joke. 

Yes, in principle, I agree with you that reforms need to be carried out in many outdated religious customs that had been imposed on us humans regardless what community we belong. If we do not do it voluntarily, we will be forced to do it because people are not living in their own sovereign enclaves anymore.

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Ahmed, Mosleh-Uddin (Mosleh) <> wrote:

Dear Friends,


Happy New Year to all! Hope 2015 brings us more peace, tranquility and enjoyment of life.


Based on my limited readings of some the emails in this chain (I was out for a while), I want to make a few observations and comments. Due to the sensitivity of this issue I am sure some of my comments may hurt the feelings of some readers. I want to apologize for that ahead of time.  My apologies for any inaccuracy in my comments as well – I am open to learning.


1.       We need to maintain civility in our communication. Although we enjoy critiquing India and Pakistan, I find communications in similar Indian and Pakistani forums are a little more civil than ours. I am off-and-on involved with some of their forums (like many others in this group). They have plenty to debate about – in India – BJP vs. liberals, high vs. low castes, Muslim haters vs. Muslim neutrals, in Pakistan – religious extremism vs. other extremism, to name a few. I would want to keep my (Bangladeshi) head high in the South Asian communities in terms of civility and respectful differences of views, but I often get disappointed.

2.       It seems to me that the attitudes on rape were different in the pre-modern times compared to today's views. For many centuries in most communities the status of women was much lower than men's. In many communities women were considered a commodity. And rapes then become an ownership issue. If you own a woman (as a wife or war booties) you have unlimited access to her – the question of rape becomes irrelevant. However it becomes an offence if you touch (or force) a woman owned by someone else. Here are two quotes from the Torah that should illustrate the point:

a.       Deuteronomy 22:28-29, "If a man runs across a girl, a virgin, who is not betrothed, and seizes her, and lies with her, and they are caught, the man who lay with her must pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife as long as he lives, without his being able to divorce her, because he violated her".

b.      Deuteronomy 22:23-24, "If there happens to be a girl who is a virgin betrothed to a husband, and a man runs across her in the city and lies with her, you must take them both out of the gate of that city, and stone them to death; the girl, because she did not call for help although in the city, and the man, because he seduced another's wife".  [It needs to be mentioned that Deuteronomy 22:25-26 stipulates death sentence to a violator of a betrothed in the open country].

3.       I did not see any provision of punishment for rape in Quran (other than the adultery). There are schools of thoughts who think rape = adultery (more or less), hence the requirement of four witness for rape as well (this could be a corruption of the Sharia law). Others are inclined to put rape under the Hadd offences (serious offence with typically death punishment). I don't have much knowledge in this area. It will be a good idea to find out what the four Islamic legal schools (Madhabs) think of rape, if they address this issue at all.

4.       I want to propose that the following factors (there may be others) influence the incidents of rape. This is based on intuitive speculation – I am not aware of any research that may support this.

a.       Social hierarchy: In a hierarchical society the dominant males can get away with (mostly unreported) crimes against the lower ranked females with impunity (as in rural India against the lower caste women, and in Bangladesh against the domestic maids (kajer meye)).

b.      Gender segregation: A healthy respectful attitude to women would be a deterrent to rape. Gender segregation is not conducive to promoting that attitude.

5.       I am curious to know the Bengali word for rape as used in the rural Bangla by non-literate people before the advent of the Bengali (in fact Sanskrit) words for it such as "dharshan", "balatkar", etc., as a way of translation of the English word "rape".

6.       I have more respect for the Saudi Muftis, whose views are more consistent with the Islamic books, than those who stretch and distort the meanings of the books to fit their agenda (such as Maurice Bucaille, Zakir Naik and others). If the Saudi Mufti says the child marriage is allowed in Islam based on the fact that the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) himself had a child bride, and a Quran verse (65:4) can be interpreted to support it, then I have no other way but to accept his views to be valid (even though I may not preach or practice these views myself).

7.       If someone has a discomfort with the texts of the scriptures (e.g., Quran, Bible, Vedas), the first thing that person should do, would be to read (research) and find out if the text of the scripture is accurate. If someone does not want to know the accurate contents of the scripture, the best thing would be to not read or try to understand the scripture and to insult the people who bring these texts to them.

8.       Now, where do we go from here? As far as I know, Hindus, Christians, Jews know the contents of their scripture (their baggage), but as science and humanities progressed (and still progressing) they (their intellectual leaders) try to encourage adoption of the new ideas (despite resistance from the clergy). These ideas sometimes require staying away from the literal meaning of the text. We (Muslims) need to do the same. In fact we are already doing some of it. For example, in a legal dispute Quran (2:282) requires two women witness in place of one male witness, but in most Muslim countries we don't follow this practice anymore. We can argue that although there was a valid reason for this directive at a time and place, this discriminatory burden is not required today in many of the communities where women's achievements are comparable to men's. This kind of reasoning is unlikely to come from the people like the Saudi Muftis, or the types of Maurice Bucaille. This can be achieved least painfully (remember Kemal Ata-Turk?) through a process supported by a secular democracy. It can be shown that secular democracy (or just democracy) will be good for both Islam and Muslims. (Pakistan should do away with the Blasphemy Law).

9.       In order to understand the benefits of secularism and democracy, one has to either live these practices in a community life or dive deep into these concepts intellectually. Any reaction with terminologies such as "so-called democracy" or "so-called secularism" will be an indication of lack of grasp of these concepts.


As we say, Allah knows best.




Mosleh-Uddin Ahmed

New Jersey, USA


From: [] On Behalf Of Ali Shaheen
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:46 PM
To: Shah DeEldar
Cc: bangladesh-progressives googlegroups;; Shah Deeldar; From: Syed Mirza; S Sen;; bangla-vision; reform-bd; notun Bangladesh
Subject: [SPAM?] Re: {PFC-Friends} Re: Top 10 Countries With Highest Rape Crime In2014---See Which County Is In The Top


So you colluded with your silence even though you could have lodged even a token protest with the group owner.  If you are receiving messages from pfc then you are in the group and a silent spectator if you choose not to participate.  While my comments were addressed to you, it applies to everyone in the group, including the owner who did not intervene.




On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Shah DeEldar <> wrote:

Ms. Shaheen, Despite my love and respect for Farida, I could not go after those scoundrels because I post my comments only in few selected forums. I voluntarily left PFC, because it has become a grand platform for BNP and Jamatis except few exceptional commentators like you, Farida and few others. I saw those posts but I had no choice but to stay silent. Why others did not write, that I do not know. If the posts had been forwarded to Muktomonas, we could have a great debate. But that did not happen.


Disclosure: I am not a Awami member or supporter. I think they are qualitatively little better than others. But their thugs could be equally dangerous and primitive as you may have witnessed already. .


On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Ali Shaheen <> wrote:

Sorry-dear! You talked about a fictitious link being posted not me so I thought you were taking responsibility for it.


I didn't see any objection being raised to those attacks on Farida, even by the non BNP Jamaat folk so I find it hard to accept that they are responsible only .  What you are suggesting is that even this group which claims to be educated will be abusive to women and we should just put up with it.  I am not a dog so I don't bark, but there is another saying that those who are not part of the solution are part of the problem- this is a collective responsibility.  By blaming members of one political party you take no responsibility for your part in making this forum a safe and welcoming place for women.  That is like saying Hindus rape women, Muslims don't.


Besides does anyone have the facts on what the Grand Mufti said on child marriage or are we just enjoying hurling insults at each other.   I  am not holding you responsible for the link just trying to get the facts here.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 30, 2014, at 12:51 PM, Shah DeEldar <> wrote:

You are barking on a wrong tree, dear. I have not posted any link whatsoever. I did even start this discussion. Show me my link if you care. Good day!



On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Ali Shaheen <> wrote:

And why would you post a fictitious link to promote a falsehood sir? We have to concern ourselves with the criminals among us regardless of what other communities do anyway. There are better ways of discussing an issue than posting fictitious material without providing any explanation as to the point of your argument and creating needless friction in a group which is already polarized along political and religious lines and does not refrain from personal attacks.  


Some time ago lewd comments were made about our member Farida Majid.  Where were all these people who oppose rape?  Why was that member not held accountable? We can respectfully disagree with anyone but a rape culture is created in this very forum when abusive language or degrading "jokes" are made about women.


If the Grand Mufti has not endorsed child marriage then posting such material without explanation amounts to promoting false propaganda.  But if this is true then it must be condemned.  So what are the facts here??

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 30, 2014, at 9:33 AM, Shah DeEldar <> wrote:

The link was rather fictitious to promote certain view point.... that is to say Muslims do not commit rapes. It is the infidel culture and traditions that are the root causes of men violating women and other men/boys. The initial topic was, a grand mufti endorsing child marriage as totally legitimate in Islam. Mr. Chaudhury thought, that was a direct insult on Islam and he retorted saying that Indians should be ashamed for their rape culture in their temples, houses and cities. From there things got even worse. This is a typical style of Bangladeshi discussion as you may know already.

Yes, I agree with your position. Rape is a huge problem and it needs to confronted with kick-ass attitude.





On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:13 PM, Ali Shaheen <> wrote:

Gentlemen - the issue is rape, not whether Muslims are better or Hindus, so let's dispense with this red herring.  Men of all religions, and those without religion rape women all over the world - it is unacceptable  under any circumstances and by anyone regardless of faith, nationality or culture.  


I would be very interested to know how these statistics are collected.  For example, are western countries and India over represented because statistics are being collected by them and rape is being reported?  Do women in Muslim countries not report rape because of hudood laws which require 4 eye witnesses to establish rape?  It is hard enough to produce one eye witness, let alone four.   And let us not forget the consequences for women who are brave enough to report rape in Muslim countries - they become easy targets of police, bring "dishonour" to the family, are considered defiled, damaged "goods" and are sometimes accused of adultery instead.


The real issue here is the promotion of rape culture and violation of women - this is going on all over the world so no need for the pot to call the kettle black.


On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Farukh Chowdhury <> wrote:

Every year millions and millions miskins or beggars like you go to Middle Eastern Muslim countries, such as, Saudi Arabia, where Mecca is located for eanings to keep alive not only their families but also economies of their own country, India, Bangladesh. At the same time India, Bangladesh government begs Saudi Arabia for taking millions more. In contrary, not a single Arabian goes to India or Bangladesh for earning a dime rather than donating and amusments.

Many of the male expatriates of your class return home country (India and Bangladesh) with circumcision and female with wearing hizabs or niqabs. They also purify themselves permanently by washing with Zam Zam water instead of cow urine and dungs.


Crimes barely exists in the Arabian countries due non existence of man made juicy and lustrous Goddesses, Kama Sutra porn culture, pervert purohits, prostitute devadasis and criminals of geeta followers. There is no brothels in those countries like India. In India, no state administered prosecution take place even single human, such as, client or visitor, pimp or supplier, mashi, mafia or prostitute is murdered in any brothel.


On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 9:56 PM, Shah Deeldar <> wrote:

I think Farukh's problem is that if India is bad, then his Muslim Ummah is better? If Awami league is bad, then his Jamati doctrine is better? The man is ill-equipped to make any simple argument, let alone the cogent ones. It is due his poor education with prejudices. I see this everyday. That is why American or European Muslims are lagging behind Jews, Hindus and pygmies where things really matter. I bet, these idiots still think that only God would help them to overcome the deficit? God bless these idiots!





On Sunday, December 28, 2014 7:54 PM, Syed Mirza <> wrote:


This is called Islamic Cheating game! I was not only highly suspicious about this fake report brought by Mr. Faruk Choudhry from nowhere but, I was also considering this report a bogus and fabricated intentionally. No muslim majority nation has any sort of statistics in rape at all; so nobody can get the actual picture of women safety in any Muslim nation. We can say it for sure that--no young or even older women can go out alone in any Muslim country. Forget it!


Let me give this argument: In any western developed nation--any young and beautiful lady can go out alone and come back safe unless she goes to some prohibited places of the city untimely. But, it can also be said with guarantee that, any young beautiful girls or married young women can get out alone with her own car, can go to shopping mall, can drive hundreds or even thousands of miles on the highway and still can return home safely. Can Mr. F. Chouddhry tell us what the possibly that to happen (like western nation) in any Muslim majority or Arab muslim countries with any lone woman driver?  Could Mr. Choudhury tell us what would happen to that lone woman driver? 


Finally, I thank Mr. Deeldar and also Mr. Sen for bringing those true statistics about women rape cases. 













On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Shah Deeldar <> wrote:

Your link is suspect, bro! You would not be able fool anybody with such corrupt data.

Here is the real picture:









Rape statistics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Statistics on rape and other sexual assaults are commonly available in advanced countries, and are becoming more common throughout the world. Incons...

Preview by Yahoo






On Sunday, December 28, 2014 11:28 AM, Farukh Chowdhury <> wrote:


Top 10 Countries With Highest Rape Crime In 2014---(India Is In The Top)


Gone are the days when people used to roam around carelessly. They were not worried about their lives or property; including the harassment (whether physical or sexual). Now, it would not be wrong if we say that people are not safe even from their relatives; let alone the strangers. With advancing technology and increasing modernization, the world has turned into a materialistic global village, where all one cares about is the materialistic things. Not only are the people unsafe, but are also exposed to many violent crimes. Crime rates, Rape crimes, Murder rates and suicide rates have increased manifold. This is the testimony of the fact that not a single soul is safe. Girls and women are equally (at times more) exposed to harassment; physical, sexual, psychological, social. Rape crimes are at climax now. Let us have a look at the Top 10 Countries with Highest rape crime in 2014 according to the latest consensus 2014.

10. New Zealand

Well boys of this country are not reliable at all. Nearly 1500 girls were raped at the start of this year in just one month and the rate is increasing since then. The cruelest part is that four to five women are killed daily after being raped. The "Roast Busters" gangster includes boys who inject alcohol in teen girls and commit gang rape. The gangster was then caught but the stories of girls being sexually violated left people in shock. 

9. Canada

highest rape crime 2014

One out of seventeen women has to face the torture of rape, but the disturbing fact is that only 6% of the actual rape crimes are reported. In actual, one out of every three women would be a raped one. If the cases would be hidden like this and no strict action would be taken, there are chances that Canada might travel to the top side of the list in the approaching years. 

8. Italy

Recently a new ruling has been enacted by the Italian court; Skinny Jeans Ruling. This law was promulgated in effect of the uncontrollable rape crime rates. According to this rule, the females wearing tight jeans cannot be raped. This clearly shows how much a country is facing the problem of sexual abuse. Italy, therefore rightly makes it among the top ten. 

7. Germany

highest rape crime countries 2014

It is surprising news that Germany has introduced morning-after pills in order to control the rape crime rates. I mean isn't this the failure of a Nation when it cannot inculcate ethics in its citizens? Like it or not, girls and women here are continuously abused inhumanely despite of the technology and literary advancements. 

6. Sweden

Europe may be a developed continent but one of its country, Sweden, has highest rape cases in the continent itself and in the world as well. This crime has increased four times in the past twenty years and is become more violent. About one third of the girls are being humiliated in their teens. One out of every four woman is at risk of being violated sexually. It comes out to the notice that females are not only sexually assaulted, but they are also harmed physically a lot. After reading all these stats, the development of this country and continent is at question. How can be they developed if their minds are not? 

5. Israel


Yes you read it right!!! Despite of it being a small territory as compared to other countries, the rape crime rate in Israel is more than noticeable; the reason being the Israel-Gaza crisis over a decade. The recent war between the two territories has resulted into innumerous rape cases of the Gaza women, who are always at the mercy of the Israel soldiers. Not only are the soldiers killing the innocent children, but are also sexually abusing the Muslim women in Gaza. Sad indeed! 

4. United Kingdom

UK was once included in the top three countries, involved brutally in the crime of sexual violence. In 2013, ONS (Office of National Statistics) published the statistic of women rape cases for the first time which were heart breaking. Concerned authorities were humiliated for not taking any action. Since then, some careful measures are taken, but UK is still ranked in top ten. 400,000 females are raped every year out of which most of them face this assassination on their character between the age of 16 to 59. 

3. USA

Top 10 Countries With Highest Rape Crime In 2014

United States of America has again managed to come in the top ten lists of rape crimes. No matter how much liberal or equality oriented the country is said to be, it fails to cater to this problem and comes out to be the conservative sort on this topic. The country encouraged the females to come at par with males. They were allowed to enter every profession but turned out to be helpless in protecting them from such a barbaric act. Not only are the females unsafe, but even the males are not safe from being raped in USA. 90% rape crimes involve women as the victims, while 9% involve men as the victims. This is in fact a moment of Silence for those who claim it to be a developed country. 

2. South Africa

African continent also makes up to the list of this year as the rape crime rate here is more than noticeable. Every year 500,000 females and every day 3600 females on average are badly raped and even killed after the abuse. One of the heart wrenching cases is the abduction, rape and murder of the two cousins aged 2 and 3 years old by five men and then dumping of the bodies in the toilet. 

1. India

Highest Rape Crime In 2014

This name has been on the top of the list since three years. And the sad part is even after a lot of protests and walks for spreading awareness, no constructive steps has been taken by government to eradicate this brutal act from the country. Male chauvinism is on the peak and most of the men are ignorant of the adverse effects of this crime.

Highest Rape Crime In 2014

The capital of India, Delhi, is the hub while areas of UP are also actively involved in rape crimes. After every twenty minutes (which was twenty two in 2012) a girls is raped, and four out of every ten women are under the threatGirls are not even safe from their own family members. Not only locals, but also foreigner ladies are not safe. The recent case of Swedish woman being raped supports the statement. Well as we are approaching towards more advancement in technology in 2015, I wish there might come some advancement in taking preventive measures to stop this act.






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Posted by: Subimal Chakrabarty <>

Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:




"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190