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Monday, October 23, 2017


Fair enough Mr. Shome. Quick changes in any country's constitution, judicial and penal system are not that easy unless you live in a totalitarian system like China and North Korea. One politburo meeting in China can bring about changes the very next day. Yes, that is the drawback of plural democracy and we have no better choice. If there is a rationale for a change, it will happen soon or later.  

Sedition charges are basically very tricky. What constitutes a serious seditious act vs a non-serious tantrum against a state? The line is not very well defined.  But when an action is added to that tantrum and people get hurt physically and emotionally, somebody might be crossing that line. Again, that would be debatable. What might be a seditious act in India might not be seditious in the US. As far as I know, nobody has lost his/her head for committing a seditious act in India when I see Ms. Arundhati Roy is still free to lecture and preach about the demolition of state India that she loves to reside and work.

Thank you for clarifying your positions. They are definitely very reasonable and healthy. Thank you.

On Monday, October 23, 2017, 5:51:09 PM EDT, saurav shome [mukto-mona] <> wrote:


Dear Shah,

Some clarifications from my side:

  1. I am not saying that Police and other systems are not changing. These are changing but not in a fundamental way. There are reform reports for both the Police and Judiciary system written in 1970s but not implemented except in piecemeal. So, we are in agreement at some level.
  2. And we still have draconian laws like sedition. There are police atrocities towards poor and minorities of all kinds. I am not saying all bad, but a better is possible.
  3. "Why would you reinvent the wheel when things are working for many countries?" Sorry, I do not have audacity to do such things. I am neither an expert in social science nor have formal educational background in this field. I am not against the idea of Democracy per se. And I think we both have agreement in this. I am emphasising more on the nature of manifestation of democracy in the present context. And I believe, we must have to improve the situation at least in India. 
  4. "Would Indians be able to find better formulas for everything?" I am not sure. However, all these opinions are mine only. It is quite possible that other Indian would have other views. 
  5. "Should India go back to the laws before English and Mughal came? I am at loss." We are on same boat.
  6. "Maybe, it is an Indian idiosyncratic issue rather colonial issue?" I think the conclusion is a product of my inadequate articulation. It would not be equally applicable to all Indians. I am really sorry for giving this impression.
Thanking you.
With best regards,

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:16 AM, Shah Deeldar [mukto-mona] <> wrote:

Point taken! However, I think a pure egalitarian democracy is rather an utopian idea and very much wishful thing to us. Is it being practiced anywhere... including some Scandinavian countries with their highly educated people with long tradition of good governance and democracy? I can't say that because they are not being treated equally under their system either. People still complain and fight and that is why Churchill is still right and valid about the system of damn democracy.

Not sure why you conclude that Police system, Defense, Judiciary and other institutions have not been changed since 1860? They all have been modified and updated gradually without any big announcements as far as I can see. Indian judiciary is not like the judiciary of 1860's? Policing is not the same as it used to be. People can't be held without being charged. A suspect has the right to demand his/her lawyer present during a police interrogation. So, where would you change them to make Indians to come out from the cloud of colonial legacies? Why would you reinvent the wheel when things are working for many countries? Would Indians be able to find better formulas for everything? Should India go back to the laws before English and Mughal came? I am at loss.

Maybe, it is an Indian idiosyncratic issue rather colonial issue? We have been adding too much curry to everything to make খিচুড়ী?

On Sunday, October 22, 2017 3:27 PM, "saurav shome [mukto-mona]" <> wrote:

I think that for any functional democracy we want egalitarian ethos to practice. I do not want to expand my suspicion to the neo-liberal nexus with democratic polity in this discussion. Rather I would focus only to what I mean about colonial legacy. I am not sure about the Penal Codes of countries other than India. For India, IPC (Indian Penal Code) was written in 1860. Whereas Constitution was drafted in the late 1940s. Of course, a large chunk of constitution was taken from 1935's documents. When we had established democracy in politics in some sense, the other pillars of democracy and government were still having colonial past. We had not dismantled any colonial set up like Police System, Defence, Judiciary, and that include highest scientific institutions like CSIR.
I also believe that there are other serious issues in connection to colonial legacy. E.g. the nationalist movements emerge out as a reaction of British Colonialism has actually internalised ethos of colonial oppressive de-humanising mindset (at least some extent) and operated them at different levels. As a result parliamentary democracy failed to represent true face of common people of India. 
Thanking you.
With best regards,

On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Shah Deeldar [mukto-mona] <> wrote:

You mean indigenous democracy? Based on what? Elaborate please if you care! The word colonial legacy has been used too frequently to denounce the past without putting forward any new revolutionary ideas.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"  -Churchill

On Sunday, October 22, 2017 9:45 AM, "saurav shome [mukto-mona]" <> wrote:

The kind of democracy we have in India is due to our colonial legacy and feudal structure of society. I think entire sub-continent is suffering from this problem (may be with different intensity). I think we need a sincere deliberation and sustained discourse on this.



Posted by: Shah Deeldar <>

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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190