Professor Akhtarul Wasey is the head of the Department
of Islamic Studies at the Jamia Millia Islamia, New
Delhi. He also edits the journals Islam and the Modern
Age (English) and Islam Aur Asr-e Jadid (Urdu). In
this interview with Yoginder Sikand he reflects on
various aspects of madrasa education in contemporary
India.
Q: How do you look at the vilification of madrasas as
'dens of terror'? What do you feel about the recent
spate of conferences organized by various Indian ulama
organizations seeking to denounce terrorism and
stressing that Indian madrasas have nothing to do with
it?
A: I think the anti-madrasa campaign is a carefully
orchestrated exercise on the part of influential
sections of the media, in which sections of the state
apparatus and intelligence agencies that provide false
reports are also closely involved. And at the global
level, one has to understand this in the context of
the offensives of the neo-imperialist forces.
Undoubtedly, we do have some unwanted elements, but
the media has created a mountain of a molehill. But we
must, at the same time, also recognize that the
molehill does actually exist, instead of seeking to
deny it. However, that molehill is certainly not the
madrasas. The former Indian Prime Minister I.K.Gujral,
and the present Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, have
acknowledged that Indian madrasas have nothing to do
with terrorism. Even the senior BJP leader L.K.Advani,
while serving as India's Deputy Prime Minister and
Home Minister, went on record as saying that his
government had not been able to identify any madrasa
in the country serving as a training ground for
terrorists.
Now, as far as the response of the ulema to these
charges of terrorism in the form of the series of
conferences that they have been organizing is
concerned, I feel that there is no need to defend
anything beyond what is necessary. Why should the
ulema be forced to become so defensive? I don't quite
agree with this approach. Fine, they have made the
point that madrasas have nothing to do with terrorism.
Let them state it and leave it at that instead of
repeatedly stressing it. Let the government now prove
or disprove its claims or let the media do this,
instead of madrasas trying to explain themselves. But
today the situation is such that madrasas are being
branded as guilty and are themselves being forced to
prove their innocence, while actually it should be for
those who accuse them to prove their charges against
them.
Another issue about these anti-terrorism conferences
that various ulema groups are organizing is that they
are being held in Muslim localities and are being
attended almost wholly by Muslims. What use does that
serve? Instead, the ulema should be organizing such
meetings and dialogues with non-Muslim opinion makers,
such as social and political activists, journalists,
lawyers, etc.. Let them not invite only secular
non-Muslims, but even right-wing non-Muslims and
dialogue with them, too. And they must also seek the
help of Muslim professionals in this regard and
include them in their dialogue efforts. This sort of
intra-Muslim dialogue must go hand-in-hand with
dialogue with people of other communities. Sadly,
neither of these two is happening on any significant
scale.
While some ulema groups have started some sort of
dialogue work with non-Muslims, this has been limited
only to those who are already convinced of the cause
of the Muslims. Let them not be content with that. To
think that the mindset of everyone who is anti-Muslim
to some extent or the other cannot change is wrong, as
very often such prejudice stems simply from ignorance
and lack of interaction. So, there should be more
interaction with people of other faiths, irrespective
of their political stances, and then automatically the
stranglehold of stereotypes will begin to weaken.
Q: What about the role of certain state governments in
harassing young Muslims, including madrasa teachers
and students, and arresting them on charges of
terrorism, which have generally later proven to be
false?
A: The worst state governments in this regard, I feel,
are the Congress governments in states like Andhra
Pradesh, Karnataka and Maharashtra, where numerous
such cases have occurred. Andhra Pradesh and
Maharashtra are becoming hunting grounds for Muslim
youth even for states like Gujarat. The National Human
Rights Commission must enquire as to how many Muslim
youth have been arrested on charges of terrorism, how
many have been then charged, and how many have then
been freed because the charges against them have been
trumped-up. The number of such fake cases is now
enormous. These innocent youth must be compensated and
the Government of India must apologise for demeaning
an entire community in this way.
Q: In recent years there has been talk in some circles
about the need for setting up a Government-sponsored
Central Madrasa Board. How do you look at this
proposal?
A: Some ulema have rejected this proposal outright,
but I feel that it isn't wise to reject something
without first having investigated it properly. In the
last sixty years, Indian Muslims have become so used
to losing things, including their rights, their
properties, their dignity and even their lives, that
they do not realize the value of something when they
get it because that has become so rare. That principle
might operate behind the outright rejection of the
Board proposal on the part of some. Further, large
sections of the ulema are justifiably concerned as to
why the Government, which appears to have no interest
at all in the welfare of the Muslims, is suddenly so
concerned about madrasas. As the Urdu saying goes:
Unki Mahfil Main Kab Ata Thha Mujh Tak Daur-e Jam
Saqi Ne Kuch Mila Na Diya Ho Sharab Mai!
(When would the cup of wine ever reach me in his
parties?
And now that it has, perhaps the cupbearer has mixed
something in the wine!)
So, obviously, there is some reason for the ulema to
react to the proposal in the way that many of them
have. After all, the Government has done little, if at
all, for Muslim education right from 1947 onwards,
and, instead of opening schools in Muslim areas, it is
setting up more and more police stations there. And if
there is some literacy among the Muslim masses, it
owes much to the efforts of the ulema, who, despite
facing numerous hardships, provide free education to
literally millions of poor children through the
madrasas. Despite the efforts of the Government to
wipe off Urdu, it is the madrasas that have kept the
language alive. So, the point is that it is quite
understandable that the proposal of the Board has not
been greeted with much enthusiasm on the part of many
ulema.
That said, I would advise that before rejecting the
proposal outright, let the ulema carefully study what
it is all about. If they don't agree with any part or
the whole of it, let them tell them government so and
explain why. If the government listens to what they
have to say and, accordingly, modifies the structure
of the Board, good enough. And then, affiliation with
the Board will not be compulsory. Madrasas will not be
compelled to join it against their will. Those
madrasas who don't want to join the Board can remain
independent as they now are.
Q: But what do you see as the possible advantages of
having a Board like this?
A: Muslim families who send their children to the
madrasas are also tax-paying citizens of India, and
have as much right to government programmes as others
do. Why should they be left out? If the Government's
Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan for primary education is joined
with maktabs and junior madrasas, it will help provide
madrasa students basic knowledge of important subjects
such as Hindi, local languages, Mathematics, Science
and so on, which is really very important today. All
this while we have been complaining that the
Government ignores Muslims, but now that it might be
offering us something we want to run away from it!
This isn't quite the right attitude.
The proposed Board might also lead to greater
accountability on the part of the managers of the
madrasas, who, at present, for the most part, are only
accountable to themselves. I feel that the opposition
of at least some of the madrasa managers to the
proposed Board stems from the fear that it might
undermine their hegemony and control.
Q: Some critics of the proposed Board cite the
instance of madrasas affiliated to the state madrasa
board in Bihar, where such madrasas are said to have
been rendered dysfunctional because their teachers,
now being paid government servants assured of a
regular salary, don't take their teaching work
seriously. They use this as an argument to oppose the
proposed Board. How do you look at this argument?
A: I don't agree with this logic at all. Look at the
Jawaharlal Nehru University or the IITs. They are
Government-funded educational institutions and still
their academic standards remain high. The quality of
education and the work of the teachers in any
educational institution do not depend on whether it is
in the private or public sector but on the personal
commitment of the teachers. But, if there is this fear
that the teachers of madrasas affiliated to the
proposed Board might not take their work seriously,
surely there are means to get around the problem,
instead of using this as an excuse to reject the Board
outright. For instance, the teachers' contracts could
be time-bound, and renewable depending on their
performance. Or, they could be provided
performance-based promotion and other benefits, so
that the problem associated with the Bihar Board
madrasas does not arise.
Q: How do you look at on-going debates about madrasa
curricular reform?
A: These debates, and most of the issues that form
part of the debates, are not new. They are more than a
century-old. Shibli Nomani raised precisely the same
issues in the 1880s. Maulana Azad did so half a
century later. And today we are talking about many of
the same questions! This itself shows that the pace of
reform has been slow. This has to do with many issues,
a major one being a certain reluctance on the part of
many madrasa managers and teachers to come up to new
standards of excellence, to learn new ways of teaching
and new subjects, fearing that if the importance of
all these is conceded others might take over. Many of
them are scared of reform and think that this might
dilute the particular identity that they have come to
assume. So, while many fancy buildings are being
constructed by many madrasas across the country,
fundamental questions as to curricular reform are
still not getting the importance they deserve. If I
may add, it always happens that when buildings
associated with any institution become more grandiose
the passion and commitment of those who manage it
decline. Sometimes, such grand structures come to
serve as graves of knowledge and wisdom. I wish we had
the same passion for knowledge and wisdom as we have
for setting up such buildings!
Q: Some ulema would argue that non-ulema really do not
have the right to advise them on matters related to
their institutions. How do you respond?
A: I believe that it is for the ulema themselves to
choose and decide. We cannot bring about any change
from without. In contrast to what some ulema claim,
however, people like myself are not calling for the
secularization of madrasas. We are not saying anything
new to the ulema. We are only pointing out that the
sort of reform that we are talking about is not an
unprecedented innovation, and that, in fact, if
accepted, it would take the madrasas back to their
glorious past, where, in addition to religious
subjects, other subjects were also taught. In an age
when there was no Harvard or Cambridge or Oxford
University, it was the madrasas that provided the best
architects to the world, people who designed the Taj
Mahal and the Qutb Minar. Great scholars like
Avicenna, mathematicians like Omar Khayyam,
philosophers like Al-Kindi and Al-Farabi and the
father of modern Sociology, Ibn Khaldun, all studied
in madrasas. Why cannot we revive that tradition
today?
That said, I wish to reiterate that the reform of the
madrasa curriculum is a task for the ulema of the
madrasas to undertake themselves. We do not have the
right to decide for them, but, surely, we have the
right to ask questions of them, and this we shall
continue to do. Outsiders like us can only help them,
but that is only if they ask us to. It is for them to
take the initiative. It is crucial that they should
bridge the artificial divide between religious and
worldly knowledge, which is not an Islamic way of
conceiving knowledge.
Q: Perhaps several madrasas do wish to include a basic
of 'modern' subjects, but maybe they simply cannot get
the teachers to do so.
A: I recognize the problem, particularly that of
limited resources of the smaller madrasas, but here is
where community effort and assistance has to come into
play. Of course, teachers cannot be procured all at
once. Take the case of the Prophet Muhammad, whose
life provides us with two models of education. The
first model is represented by the Suffa, the platform
outside the mosque in Medina where the Prophet used to
teach those of his companions who would gather there,
the Ashab-e Suffa. The second model is represented by
those Meccan prisoners of war who fought the Muslims
in the Battle of Badr whom the Prophet released
provided they taught a certain number of Muslims. Now,
these were all not just non-Muslims but also people
who were dead against Islam. Obviously they did not
teach the Muslims the Quran. They taught them,
possibly, literacy or numerical skills. Just think of
it! The Prophet of God instructed his enemies to teach
his companions on this occasion!
So, how can one forbid this thing that the Prophet of
God has allowed for? Does it not mean that Muslim
children can also study from non-Muslims, particularly
since these non-Muslims, unlike the Quraish captured
in Badr, are not enemies of Islam? Why can't we have
qualified non-Muslims to teach our children in the
madrasas subjects such as English and Mathematics and
so on if getting Muslim teachers for these subjects is
difficult? After all, the Prophet is reported to have
said that wisdom is the lost property of the believer,
and wherever he finds it he should acquire it.
Q: Presumably, some ulema would argue that non-Muslim
teachers or Muslim teachers who are not ulema
themselves might negatively impact on the faith or
culture of the students.
A: I don't agree with this argument. If one's belief
is firm, nothing can weaken it. Did the non-Muslims
who became prisoners of war and then taught Muslims
cause the faith of those Muslims to weaken? Obviously
not. The case of the prisoners of Badr clearly
suggests the principle that one should consider a
teacher's skill and capability, not his or her
religion.
Q: You earlier spoke about the need for intra-Muslim
dialogue. In this regard, what do you have to say
about the fact that numerous madrasas are, in fact,
the backbone of sectarianism and intra-Muslim rivalry
based on sectarian differences?
A: Here I think the example of Shah Waliullah, whom
all the various Sunni groups in India respect, is
crucial. He sought to bring about reconciliation or
tatbiq of the different Sunni schools of
jurisprudence, between proponents of the two main
Sufistic schools—advocates of Wahdat al-Wujud ('Unity
of Being') and Wahdat al-Shuhud ('Unity of
Witnessing'), between those who stressed the shariah
and those who gave more importance to the tariqa or
Sufi path. His magnum opus, Hujjatulla ul-Balagha, has
near consensus among the Sunni ulema in South Asia.
Unfortunately, we all take Shah Waliullah's name but
do not follow his approach.
Another example I can cite in this regard is that of
Imam Shafi, who, when he visited the grave of Imam Abu
Hanifa, prayed in the Hanafi fashion, much to the
surprise of his own students. When asked to explain
his behaviour, he replied that he did this out of
respect for the deceased Imam. The noted scholar, the
late Dr. Hamidullah, remarks in this connection that
Allah so loved the ways of the Prophet that He made
them all immortal in some or the other school of
Muslim jurisprudence. So, some Muslim schools believe
that the word ameen be recited aloud in prayers while
others recite it silently. Some hold their hands
around their chests while praying and others around
their waists. Instead of squabbling about which group
is right in this regard, as often happens today, Dr.
Hamidullah's advice was that all these practices are
proven from the Prophet's life and thus are equally
acceptable. I think if this sort of approach is
adopted, many of the minor issues that some sectarian
leaders rake up in order to garner support for
themselves, some even using these to brand other
Muslim groups as outside the pale of Islam, can easily
be solved.
That said, I must also add that sectarian or maslaki
differences, if kept within decent limits, are not
wholly objectionable and are, in fact, to some extent,
understandable as they reflect differences of
interpretation of the Islamic textual tradition. In a
sense, this is also a reflection of the democratic
character and structure of Islam. Differences of
opinion are or can be a blessing for the community, as
the saying goes.
After all, what is democracy? Basically, it is a
product of scientific empiricism where an element of
doubt is always working. So, the majority might have a
certain view, but the person in a minority of one
might well be correct, but all have the same right to
hold their own views. Islamic scholars, who issue
fatwas or write Quranic commentaries, always end their
works by adding the line that while what they have
written is their own considered opinion, God knows
better what is correct (Wallahu Alam Bis Sawab). This
reflects what I referred to as the scientific
empiricism that demands an element of doubt, which is
also present here. Hence, no scholar can regard
himself as the final authority. This is a very big
thing, a reflection of intellectual democracy.
So, I would say, one should not see differences of
opinion between the different sects as necessarily a
bad thing, but at the same time one realizes that the
ways in which these differences are often expressed
are not proper.
Q: To come back to an issue that you had briefly
referred to earlier, what role do you see the ulema as
playing with regard to inter-community dialogue in
India today?
A: Dialogue must move beyond discussions about
religious beliefs and practices to centre on issues of
common concern that afflict us all, questions such as
poverty, social injustice, the ecological crisis, war
and peace and so on. Our own religious approach to
people of other faiths should be as the Quran lays
down—that each of us is entitled to follow our own
religion and that there can be no compulsion in
religious affairs. This is not because we are a
minority in India or because of local compulsions, but
precisely because Islam mandates this approach for us.
The ulema must take the leadership to promote genuine
inter-community dialogue and harmony. In this regard,
a classic instance is that of Maulana Azad. His
commentary on the opening verse of the Quran, the
Surah al-Fatiha, can well be considered a manifesto
for inter-faith understanding. If we are the ''best of
the communities', the Khair ul-Ummah, as we often
refer to Muslims as, we should take the initiative in
promoting inter-community dialogue and not wait for
others to do it. It is our Quranic mandate to work for
solving the manifold problems that not just Muslims
alone but the whole of humanity is faced with. Of
course we cannot do this alone, and we need an
inter-faith alliance with a common minimum programme.
In this respect, as in every other, we have a guide in
the Prophet Muhammad. Even before he declared his
prophethood, he was associated with a group of fellow
Meccans, all of them non-Muslims, in the form of the
Hilful Fudhool, which provided help and succour to the
distressed. Later, when in Medina, at a time when he
and his followers were faced with relentless threats
from the Meccans, he announced that if the Meccans
invited him to join an alliance like the Hilful
Fudhool he would do so.
So, if the Prophet could be willing to enter into an
alliance with those opposed to Islam for the sake of
human welfare, why should not we enter into similar
alliances with people of other faiths, particularly
those who are well-meaning and are in no way inimical
to us and our religion? Honestly, I don't see Muslims
getting anyway ahead unless they take up this task
seriously and in a major way.
I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but the fact
remains that till we could produce grand edifices for
the world like the Taj Mahal and the Qutb Minar we
mistakenly thought of ourselves as 'shadows of God'
(zill-e ilahi), but today the situation is so dismal
that far from contributing anything for others, we
only take from them, and that too we do not even know
the proper way of taking.
As Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar once poetically
remarked:
Hadd Hai Pasti Ki Ke Pasti Ko Bulandi Jana
Ab Bhi Ahsas Ho Iska To Ubharna Hai Yehi
(The height of degradation is to think of degradation
as exaltation
But if one is even aware of this, it is a sign of a
possible reawakening).
Prof. Akhtar ul-Wasey can be contacted on
wasey27@gmail.com
Sukhia Sab Sansar Khaye Aur Soye
Dukhia Das Kabir Jagey Aur Roye
The world is 'happy', eating and sleeping
The forlorn Kabir Das is awake and weeping
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