WRT: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/50401
"About Kazi Nazrul citation, the fact remains that you interpreted it exactly the opposite way. "Manush enese grontho" can only mean even the holy books are written by men, and not the other way round."
"About Kazi Nazrul citation, the fact remains that you interpreted it exactly the opposite way. "Manush enese grontho" can only mean even the holy books are written by men, and not the other way round."
You seem to have forgotten that there were two parts to that quote, the second part being "grontho aneni manush kono." Taken together, it means that human beings take precedence over whatever books they follow, and more importantly, fight over. When they hate each other (this is from the lines preceding the quote in the same poem) over books or causes, however noble or exalted, they have forgotten that human beings are the reason books exist, and books are not the reason human beings exist. This is the message Nazrul wanted to convey with those two great lines.
This interpretation holds true regardless of the exact process by which "manush eneche grontho." So, if we assume that human beings totally on their own wrote those books, my interpretation above is still valid.
The point I wanted to get across was that any movement for progressive social change need not be held back by either the faithfuls' need for dogmatic adherence to the literal meaning of religious scriptures or the insistence of those harboring hostility toward the religion that we do not lose sight of its alleged "real" character as it appears from religion's holy books, and spurn any such movements. Allowing this is equivalent of giving books precedence over human beings.
"About your assertion that the core of religion comes from God, did Gabriel tell you that?"
Yes, he did. He also advised me to continue a civil a dialog with you until you exceed my "I-can't-continue-this-stupid-argument" threshold. By the way, I did not make any "assertions." I stated a belief (I actually used the word "believe"), a very subjective and personal one, and I was not trying to pursuade anyone to accept it. You, on the other hand, have been making a lot of assertions, without any substantiation, like the ones that follow.
"Hammurabi, the founder of the Sumerian civilization, got his
code of law from Shamash, the Mesopotamian Sun God."
code of law from Shamash, the Mesopotamian Sun God."
Since neither of us believe in the Sun God, I take it that Hammurabi wrote the code totally on his own. This could be true.
"Moses simply plagiarised from him and enunciated Ten Commandments. "
Here is one of your unsubstantiated assertions. Any references? Please note that unlike me you did not say preface your assertion with "I believe" or something that will tell us that you are not making a claim to a verifiable fact or even a plausible fact.
"Freud believed that Moses, Akhenaten and Oedipeus were actually the same person."
It is not likely that the founder of the science of Psychology, with his strong interest in incest and abnormal sexual behaviors, and mental disorders in general, would harbor such extraordinary beliefs. It also shows that even a great mind can sometimes thoughtlessly step out of its area of competence (in Freud's case, it was Psychology and not History) and make wild assertions, pretty much like many totally clueless people do. The questions are, do you agree with him, and what is the relevance of that information to what we are discussing?
"Now to Sir Isaac, please read what Russel said about him. He stole first two laws of motion from Galileo, Calculus from Leibnitz, and even the law of Gravitation from Hooke."
How about the third law? How about Newton's contributions to optics? Any credible references to verify your statements above? How about the Russel reference?
From what I know, Newton and Leibnitz independently developed Calculus but Newton, using his clout as the President of the British Royal Society, tried to monopolize the recognition all for himself. Newton was not known to be a very nice man.
But in spite of his personal shortcomings and controversies about his accomplishments, it remains a fact that he had superb analytical abilities. Yet, he believed in religion, which shows that there is no necessary correlation between one's analytical ability and religious predisposition.
"Einstein, according to modern revelations, ridiculed religion. According to a study published a few years ago in Nature, most scientists don't believe in God anyway. What kind of God it is
that can't win over the Devil conclusively?"
that can't win over the Devil conclusively?"
You have to ask God that question. But my guess is that He is the same kind of God who allows a lot of people to ask a lot of inane questions about Him.
"Rabindranath, Ramkrishna, and Vivekananda were contemporary. By the time Quantum Physics was developed, Tagore was mostly demented anyhow, do you have any proof that he learned it as you contend?"
Try to find the book "Our Universe" written by the truly myriad-minded poet. It is a very good read. I found this book in Dhaka University Library some thirty years ago. Do you know exactly when did Tagore start getting demented, so that people can date his dementia with developments in Quantum Physics?
"According to Nrisimha Prasad Shil, Ramkrishna and Vivekananda were parners in homosexual activities."
What do the alleged sexual proclivities of Vivekananda have to do with his analytical abilities? Also, what is the relevance of the above information to what we are discussing?
"In a post to Mr. S. A. Hannan, you referred to 'divine origin'. What do you mean by anything being divine? Is an epileptic with split personality divine?"
You either believe in divinity or you do not. The concept of divinity is not amenable to communication across a cognitive disconnect. Trying to explain divinity to a person who does not believe in it is like trying to explain the nuances of Hindu theology to the Taliban, or the works of Imam Gazzali to Rev. Pat Robertson.
"About anthropological basis of religion; are you even aware of it?"
Are you even aware that how presumptuous and "full of yourself" you sound when you ask inane questions like the above?
Are you also aware that other people, besides yourself, might have pondered and studied profound questions about the universe, life and the human condition? Do you not think anyone who at any time in life lost faith in God and religion, might have wondered where these ideas came from, and whether the enduring existence of such a powerful institution as religion has a purely materialistic explanation? Finally, do Emile Durkheim and Max Weber ring any bells?
Best wishes.
M. Harun uz Zaman
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